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Optimising Clubhead Speed - Is this the real way?


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4 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The right palm is going to go point at the ground. If it doesn’t he isn’t going to get into this position.

 

 

0CA23367-18FF-41C6-9C3E-4CFF1BB109E4.jpeg

 

The images you've shown above is TW using a short iron. The swing mechanics of the short game is different to driving or full long irons.

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1 minute ago, Wildthing said:

 

The images you've shown above is TW using a short iron. The swing mechanics of the short game is different to driving or full long irons.

Really. You think that the mechanics change between a long and short iron?

Im out

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Posted (edited)

Here is a video of TW's hands using a driver.

 

 

Here is Adam Scott

 

Gary Woodland

 

Note that their trail palms are not facing the ground approaching a few feet from impact and their trail forearms are still frankly supinated at impact. If they did pronate their trail forearms so that the palms were facing the ground, the club would topple over 'off plane' from a down the line view.

Edited by Wildthing
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Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Picking quotes from some of the guys who are just starting with the ntc series or those who are barely into the change in their swing doesn’t support your case. Guys are making movement pattern changes and that doesn’t happen overnight or even a few months.

But once again I’ll post one of the best in the worlds swing and you can see he does exactly what the ntc series teaches.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CcIrF8XjHfD/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
 

Wait but there’s another in Koepka (btw monte also points out his swing flaw, so all the other stuff about learning what the pros do, you have to pick a pro because like I said the all have differences in what they do based on their swing, but what they all do is add some amount of flexion in the lead wrist or if they choose the trial wrist then it’s extension, both work together)

https://www.instagram.com/tv/Cb-aUgXlrMy/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
 

But wait there’s even another long ball hitting in Bryson doing the same move

https://www.instagram.com/p/CEPXFpvFFzD/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

Choosing various pro swings and then implying they are all doing this NTC technique is a big assumption. All I see is a kinematic sequence pelvis/torso/arms/club but if instructors wish to add their own ideas, that's fine too. 

This early cast is assumed to close the clubface and that may be true if ulnar deviation of the lead wrist causes flexion too, but there is no guarantee that will happen in all golfers. However, if the golfer used an active wrist coupling motion of ulnar deviation and flexion happening at the same time, it will cause supination of the forearm and close the clubface relative to the clubhead path. But the potential drawback is that the ulnar deviation will cause a loss of lag angle between club shaft and lead arm, which might cause early release issues. 

Personally, I'd rather use passive wrists in the golf swing with less tension and manipulation.

Edited by Wildthing
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15 hours ago, Wildthing said:

Some of Monte Scheinblum's videos resonate with some but not with others.

Not at all unusual in golf instruction, or other teaching disciplines,  as we know beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

13 hours ago, Wildthing said:

Golfwrx are full of posters marketing Monte's or Tyler Ferrell instruction and if you raise a post debating their integrity, some of the 'shills' collaborate together to get you banned.

No doubt on this one, but some claim getting banned from GolfWRX might be a mark of distinction as it relates to the Instruction and Academy forum.    Instead of shills, more like proxy warriors.  Monte has some potential but is quite rough around the edges for my taste.

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:macgregor-small:  :benhogan-small: :cobra-small:

 

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13 hours ago, Wildthing said:

Look at this AMG video

I don't know the difference between adduction or a duck's shins but it's fine for the trail arm to move inward, but again the video seems to be dissecting for the sake of dissecting, why, I have no idea.

138713460_765513847506075_8984386525802060705_n.jpg.e63730ea776a4f9500d88631f1d80d48.jpg

 

 

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:macgregor-small:  :benhogan-small: :cobra-small:

 

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Couldn’t help it. Here’s another long ball hitter practicing ntc cast move. Btw it’s Finau.

Very simple. Some flexion of lead wrist or extension of trail wrist depending on what the golfer prefers to feel. Some in folding of the trail and turn.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CguWVzsFqvZ/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Before that some movement away from the ball, could be very little and unnoticeable to some guys who move way off the back. Between the takeaway and club parallel wrist get set(amount varies by golfer. DJ and Couples are the extremes) and the trail hip moves back(Jack calls it the right packet back) and then around towards target as arms raise a little. Butt of the club points at or inside ball line(haven’t found a teacher who doesn’t teach this. 

Now I’m out 

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Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

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Their is no right way for everyone. Some don’t have enough modbility through their spine or shoulders/wrists to do these movements. Others don’t have the strength to make meaningful gains. Their are many variables why something does or doesn’t work. Once you make changes, equipment may need adjusted. Too many variables to be all in on one way. Their are too many theories to not take bits and pieces to make meaningful gains. Lifting, over speed training, and swing changes… many do not even have the ability to digest all the mechanical terms that go into the golf swing. 

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First off. I have total respect for all golf teachers (both online or in person instructors). Sounds like it is such a competitive field to be in. You really have to develop a swing methodology that works well for all skill levels. Being a great communicator/listener/ and tremendous amounts of patience

when it comes to wild things posts. I would suggest practicing swings starting at hip high. Get in a semi squat move, have the face closed where it aligns with your spine, right elbow on right hip. From there thing right palm to target turning hard low and left with a feeling of the trail elbow frozen on your side until after impact.  That one drill really opened up my eyes to the rest of the golf swing.
 

not a bio mechanics wizard by any means. Keep it simple my friend  

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8 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Couldn’t help it. Here’s another long ball hitter practicing ntc cast move. Btw it’s Finau.

Very simple. Some flexion of lead wrist or extension of trail wrist depending on what the golfer prefers to feel. Some in folding of the trail and turn.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CguWVzsFqvZ/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Before that some movement away from the ball, could be very little and unnoticeable to some guys who move way off the back. Between the takeaway and club parallel wrist get set(amount varies by golfer. DJ and Couples are the extremes) and the trail hip moves back(Jack calls it the right packet back) and then around towards target as arms raise a little. Butt of the club points at or inside ball line(haven’t found a teacher who doesn’t teach this. 

Now I’m out 

Here is Adam Scott and Justin Rose and I don't see them doing this ntc move (ie. a little wrist casting action at the top of the backswing - to make the clubhead move up and back behind the golfer).

I'm sure I can find others.

 

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Posted (edited)

Here is a video with Larry Rinker and Jon Sinclair .

I think the ntc 'move' is described by Jon Sinclair at 24:22- 25:21

 

Here is another video where he describes what I think is the ntc 'move' by Trevor Immelman at 24:00 -25:30

 

I'm assuming Monte has used this data to formulate his 'No Turn Cast' concept. Further, I am assuming Tyler Ferrell is also using this same data to create his 'Reverse Motorcycle Move' concept. 

Question 1 Is NTC and 'Reverse Motorcycle Move' essentially the same but being named differently?

Question 2:  Can we really assume that this move is advantageous in some shape or form? Where is the evidence?

 

 

 

Edited by Wildthing
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On 5/19/2022 at 1:33 PM, IONEPUTT said:

I just watched the 16 minute video by Dr. Sasho Mackenzie and while I think i understood what he was saying I'm pretty sure I did NOT learn anything that I can take to the driving range to use to gain any clubhead speed. The Dr. provided lots of science but I'm not sure he provided any helpful infomation on HOW to swing the clubhead faster.  

 

This

I got a bag full of Cobras.... Well, not the putter... yet.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/9/2022 at 12:39 PM, Chester3488 said:

This

The Dr Sasho MacKenzie videos are basically showing the 'kinetics' of a golf swing which are the forces/torques involved.  It would be futile (nigh impossible) to try and teach a golfer to apply this amount of force/torque via his hands at this point in time in his golf swing. 

It just gives you a general idea that at the start of the downswing the club is being pulled more in the direction of the shaft to create clubhead speed. That any couple or torque applied to the grip via the hands is passive and the golfer must be wary of not using excessive musculature wrist torque (uncocking /casting action) which would cause clubhead speed too peak too early.  The golfer must also not try and hold lag with stiffer wrists to try and create a more energetic 'Release' later in the downswing because the timing needs to be impeccable. Get is slightly wrong and you will not optimise clubhead speed by impact.  Also having stiffer wrists means less capability to allow your club to be angularly accelerated by the 'In Plane Moment Of Force' (ie. compare a rusted joint to an oily one).

You should also be aware that approaching impact, the club's angular velocity is so large that the wrist joints (and therefore hands) cannot keep up. The club is essentially pulling on the hands (from an angular rotation perspective) which end up applying a negative torque on the grip, which causes even more forward shaft bend than is expected at impact.

Just that little piece of knowledge that I've mentioned above should raise 'warning signs' when you see some golf instruction videos recently published on 'Be Better Golf'.

 

This instructor is claiming he and several other pros like Lee Trevino, George Knudson, Ben Hogan all created lagging shaft flex approaching and through impact. This means they are claiming to apply positive torque on the grip (not the negative torque one would normally see on inverse dynamic graphs as shown in Dr Sasho MacKenzie's videos).

The instructor is also claiming that by maintaining lag tension (ie. lagging bend) and accelerating though impact (with a firmer grip) he can reduce dispersion for off-centre hits.  

He is claiming a 'Hitting' action is superior to a 'Swinging' action.

 

Edited by Wildthing
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On 8/9/2022 at 6:55 AM, Wildthing said:

Question 1 Is NTC and 'Reverse Motorcycle Move' essentially the same but being named differently?

Question 2:  Can we really assume that this move is advantageous in some shape or form? Where is the evidence?

#1 Well for the NTC what needs to be pointed out is that it’s two parts. The no turn which is a feeling and one actually turns but it’s caused by then arms and upper body moving the hips. This fixes what most amateurs have in either no turn or too much too early.

The cast A part is the reverse motorcycle move but is also unfolding if the trail arm. Then there’s is cast B which is the release. 
 

#2 there’s no need to assume it’s advantageous. It’s literally what every golf golfer does. The amount of added flexion and unfolding of the trail arm is going to vary by golfer. The move in of itself isn’t what’s advantageous it’s the combination of a proper turn in the downswing. Also that’s combined with proper pressure shifts in the swing. 
 

The thread you stated about the body doesn’t square the face is a perfect example of this happening. 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

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Here’s 4 videos how how the swing works. The application of all the biomechanics and what all the good ones do.

178-183 ball speed from an out of shape 50+ year old I would say is pretty good proof that the proper shift combined with cast A generates speed 

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CfPDW0YlxRe/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CdBTqyqjTBH/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cam-GP6J6mQ/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CYPAO5_IKNJ/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CVn1axEDHif/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

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Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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3 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Here’s 4 videos how how the swing works. The application of all the biomechanics and what all the good ones do.

178-183 ball speed from an out of shape 50+ year old I would say is pretty good proof that the proper shift combined with cast A generates speed 

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CfPDW0YlxRe/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CdBTqyqjTBH/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cam-GP6J6mQ/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CYPAO5_IKNJ/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CVn1axEDHif/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

That young man has a real nice motion 

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On 5/18/2019 at 7:15 AM, Wildthing said:

This is again for those mainly interested in the biomechanics of the golf swing (ie. what is going on rather than how). Just thought it might interest others who are trying to figure out what many of the pros are doing to drive that ball 300+ yards.

Lets use  DJ as an example about optimising clubhead speed.

http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/JohnsonHandArcPath.jpg

The secret to his high clubhead speed seems to fit in with physics.

1. From Image 1  to just before image 3  , he has somehow made biomechanical movements that have created a hand path on a 'straightish'  path (or an arc with a long radius).

2. Along this 'straightish' path , he has increased his hand speed as much as he can.

3. He has retained left 'wrist cock' angle (angle between shaft and forearm) from top of backswing to just before image 3  (where one can see the 'release' of that angle happening- increasing). Physics proves that more wrist cock before a 'natural' release , the faster the clubhead speed.

4. The 'natural release' of that angle happens due to 'pseudo CF forces', because he has performed biomechanical moves that change his hand path from straightish to a more curved path. His wrists just before image 3  act as oily hinges and he is basically letting the 'momentum' of the clubhead (ie. evoked by pseudo Centrifugal Forces) uncock his wrists (ie. a natural release).

A simple 'imperfect'  analogy of point 4 is like driving in a car (ie. your hands) on a straight road increasing your speed and then taking a very tight corner turn. Any objects (ie. the clubhead ) in the back seat will go sliding across the seat very fast. 

The counterintuitive part  is that his 'wrists/hands' end up actually restricting the 'angular velocity' of the clubhead because it is rotating faster than the hands can keep up.  This is proven by physics which says that forward shaft bend into impact means 'negative torque' at the hands (see image below).

image.png.b3704164c965de02cfb5ce06ec9f3d29.png

 

So now we know what DJ's hands are doing , the puzzle is figuring out 'how' he is moving his body parts to create the dynamics and geometry of his 'hand speed/path'.

Obviously , the above is just about creating clubhead speed and not the biomechanics involved in squaring the clubface (a different matter altogether).

So has anyone got any ideas how DJ creates that straight path in the downswing?

PS.

I thought it would be a good idea to show the hand path of Bobby Jones (in red below) which shows a more circular hand path , where he also had an 'earlier' natural release. He couldn't replicate the hand path of DJ because of the limitations on the strength of hickory shafts . If he tried stressing the shaft  using  DJ's hand path (ie. straight path and then speedy acute 'corner turn') the shaft would have broken.

 

Bobby Jones golf swing with red and blue curves to illustrate

 

Science, it's what's for dinner  !  🙂

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6 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Here’s 4 videos how how the swing works. The application of all the biomechanics and what all the good ones do.

178-183 ball speed from an out of shape 50+ year old I would say is pretty good proof that the proper shift combined with cast A generates speed 

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CfPDW0YlxRe/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CdBTqyqjTBH/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cam-GP6J6mQ/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CYPAO5_IKNJ/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CVn1axEDHif/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

I can't open these links for some reason.

I suppose you have to register on instagram to view them.

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On 8/8/2022 at 7:15 AM, Wildthing said:

 

The images you've shown above is TW using a short iron. The swing mechanics of the short game is different to driving or full long irons.

They are not.  I can and do hit wedges and 9 irons for practice, go to the first tee, and nail a driver, without a doubt.  Same body / shoulders / hips / hands / tendons / muscles.

Edited by flyingwedges
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