Richie3Jack Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 I'm a bit curious to this. Particularly when the steel gets between 1020 and 1025. I have a bunch of forged irons (12 sets). And I was at the PGA Merch Show's Demo day. I also play blades exclusively. I have a set of 1967 Hogan Percussions, and they feel awesome. In fact, I'll probably get them re-built thru the iron factory. I've also got some Hogan Bounce Sole 1+'s....again, feel great. I believe these are 1020 carbon steel. I have a set of Mizuno TN-87's. I asked Tom Wishon about these clubs becasue they are known for their superior feel. The claim is that they feel superior becasue they used a 'copper underlayment' under the chrome. Wishon said that they did, but back then pretty much all irons did the same thing and that copper has nothing do with making that club feel softer. Yet, it does feel great and they are my current gamers. Then I've got some Srixon Pro 100's, 1025 steel....feel great. But I've got a set of Titleist 690 MB's (1025) and they feel decent, but noticeably not as good as the Srixon's, the Hogan's I've mentioned and the Mizuno TN-87. Then I have some Bridgestone J33's which have 1020 carbon steel and they don't feel nearly as good. So I'm looking for people's thoughts on why some feel better than others even though the steel is the same. Also, most of these irons have True Temper shafts, other than the TN-87's which are Project X. And any technical forging info, like times struck, with regards to these clubs would be helpful so that we can compare what works and what doesn't. 3JACK Author of Pro Golf Synopsis. The Moneyball approach to golf strategy and analysis.Driver: Wishon 919THI, 10° loft, UST Mamiya VTS Red 7x, 44-3/8” long, 2,825 kg/cm^2 MOIGONZO WOOD: confidential2-Hybrid: Mizuno Fli-HiCLK, 17° loft, 40-7/8" KBS Tour Hybrid shaft (stiff)3-Hybrid: Mizuno Fli-HiCLK, 20° loft, 40" KBS Tour Hybrid shaft (stiff)4-6 iron: Wishon 575MMC (CB)7-PW: Wishon 575MMC (MB)SW: Edel Golf driver grind, 52° loft, 16° bounce, Nippon WV 125 shaft.LW: Edel Golf Digger Grind, 60° loft, 27° bounce, Nippon WV 125 ShaftPutter: Edel Golf Columbia Custom Made, 35" long, 72° lie angle, 3° loft. Ball: Titleist Pro V1xGrips: PURE Grips P2 Wrap (red)Shoes: FootJoy Dry-Joy (black, size 14)3Jack's Golf Blog - http://3jack.blogspot.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPY VIP GolfSpy_X Posted February 16, 2011 SPY VIP Share Posted February 16, 2011 When you have similar manufacturing variables such as all irons being forged from billet and the material all being carbon steel (1020, 1025, 1030) the design plays an important part on perception of feel. All models listed could be manufactured of the same exact material and you would still have a differing feel between the models. This is due to CG location and placement of mass. Granted that all of the irons are blade models but the distribution of mass in each of the heads is slightly different. Blade thickness can account for solidness of feel but so can the location of the CG. If the golfer is accustomed to hitting the center of the face and the CG is more heel-ward there could be a less solid feel at impact. Likewise, if the golf has a very refined swing and typically impacts the face X" tangent to the shaft axis, each iron design will have a different feel based on the CG location's relationship to the shaft axis (this would be very common with differences in blade lengths of models). So the perception of one type of carbon steel over another shouldn't be the only comparison to take into account when wondering why one club feels more solid than another. Hope this helps. #TruthDigest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moecat Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Some very good and educational info right there ... thanks! When you have similar manufacturing variables such as all irons being forged from billet and the material all being carbon steel (1020, 1025, 1030) the design plays an important part on perception of feel. All models listed could be manufactured of the same exact material and you would still have a differing feel between the models. This is due to CG location and placement of mass. Granted that all of the irons are blade models but the distribution of mass in each of the heads is slightly different. Blade thickness can account for solidness of feel but so can the location of the CG. If the golfer is accustomed to hitting the center of the face and the CG is more heel-ward there could be a less solid feel at impact. Likewise, if the golf has a very refined swing and typically impacts the face X" tangent to the shaft axis, each iron design will have a different feel based on the CG location's relationship to the shaft axis (this would be very common with differences in blade lengths of models). So the perception of one type of carbon steel over another shouldn't be the only comparison to take into account when wondering why one club feels more solid than another. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamo Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 I wonder if the actual manufacturing process has a noticeable effect? For instance if one forgery heats their metal up a little hotter than another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manavs Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 dont discount that the following all have effects on feel - amount and type of epoxy ferrule presence of a pin presence of a dowel in the tip of the shaft type of shaft amount of tape type of grip Staffer Staffer www.MANAVIANGolf.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 J33s I've found didn't really feel that great, but I put it down to the fact that they had a such a long hosel on them, thats a lot more weight above the ball compared to others. I have a revolving WITB policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RookieBlue7 Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Build quality, manufacturing tolerances, and attention to detail also play a factor. The more recent you go, the higher the volume of clubs built annually and the lower the quality of the builds. It's like the car industry, the older cars were just more well built and more attention was given to the finite details. In The BagDriver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400 SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold SpinnerLW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold SpinnerXW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger steppedPutter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie3Jack Posted February 17, 2011 Author Share Posted February 17, 2011 Is there a way or a tool that can measure the location of the CoG on the club? 3JACK Author of Pro Golf Synopsis. The Moneyball approach to golf strategy and analysis.Driver: Wishon 919THI, 10° loft, UST Mamiya VTS Red 7x, 44-3/8” long, 2,825 kg/cm^2 MOIGONZO WOOD: confidential2-Hybrid: Mizuno Fli-HiCLK, 17° loft, 40-7/8" KBS Tour Hybrid shaft (stiff)3-Hybrid: Mizuno Fli-HiCLK, 20° loft, 40" KBS Tour Hybrid shaft (stiff)4-6 iron: Wishon 575MMC (CB)7-PW: Wishon 575MMC (MB)SW: Edel Golf driver grind, 52° loft, 16° bounce, Nippon WV 125 shaft.LW: Edel Golf Digger Grind, 60° loft, 27° bounce, Nippon WV 125 ShaftPutter: Edel Golf Columbia Custom Made, 35" long, 72° lie angle, 3° loft. Ball: Titleist Pro V1xGrips: PURE Grips P2 Wrap (red)Shoes: FootJoy Dry-Joy (black, size 14)3Jack's Golf Blog - http://3jack.blogspot.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamo Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Is there a way or a tool that can measure the location of the CoG on the club? 3JACK There probably is somewhere. That said, Roger Maltby does that with all of the irons on the market every year. Sorry that doesn't help with your old blades though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lshines Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 There probably is somewhere. That said, Roger Maltby does that with all of the irons on the market every year. .... WHOA - WAITAMINUTE: So, where can we find the data Maltby gathers? Is that something that MGS could link to? What would it tell us about clubs? This could be significant! at least gnarly! Linwood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBone Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 http://www.ralphmaltby.com/ look for Maltby Playability Factor (MPF) you can find current and previous years clubs on the site too, good resource for clubmaking, It lists C of G, MOI, weights etc for a bunch of clubs, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG STU Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I will agree with what Mygolf Spy and Moe Cat said on here. For some reason I also prefer the older forged blades. What I do is update them on shafts and check the lofts and lies on them. I currently own only 5 sets of forged irons now. I usually can find them at an yard sale or at the flea market cheap around $25 or so. I will take them and evaluate them for me and make according changes. Most of the time I use TT S-300s I prefer that shaft. I do have a set of 65 Macgregor black face Tourney Customs that i put rifle 6.0 s in. I am not a metaluroligst but I think it has to do with the metal forging process. Of the modern forgings past 1990 I like the Mizuno MP-33s the best but they wear out too fast for me especially down here at the beach.I am also like you I am a feel player. I have found out for me that old rebuilt forged irons work and they are less expensive since I do my own work including lofts and lie settings. Since you are an old forged blade fan like me I will give you my list on what I have left 70 Mac VIPs S-300 shafts This is my primary gamer set 65 Mac Black Face Tourney Custom 70-72 Mac Tour Blades 80 Power Bilt Scotch blades These were found pristine and have the factory shafts but new grips 78 Wilson Staff FG-17 blades reshafted S300u Driver ---- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha Speeder 565 R flex- 5W TM V-Steel Fubuki 60r--- 7W TM V-Steel UST Pro Force Gold 65R----- 9 W TM V Steel TM MAS stiff---- Irons 2015 TM TP CB Steel Fiber 95 R--- GW Callaway Mack Daddy 2 52* shaft unknown junk pile refugee. SW Callaway PM Grind 56* Modified sole grind--- KBS Tour Wedge-- LW Vokey 58* SM5 L grind--- Putter Ping B90I Broom Stick G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shambles Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I don't give a great deal of importance to club head material except as it affects the life span of the club. I think the appearance has more importance as it makes you want to be using that club and that has to be a good thing. Next would be the suitability of the shaft to you personally as that impacts your personal satisfaction in using that club. Fine tuning comes in the bounce and center of gravity. They affect the ball flight and the effort you need to put into controlling that ball flight. Age has little to do with it unless that age suits you and impacts upon your self image and the joy you experience in using it. If you enjoy some clubs more than others, you are one in a crowd. We all have personal preferences and it's only in those personal preferences that we truly vary. When we are happy, we really hit the ball farther even with our defective techiniques and are more accurate too. In short, be happy and have a good time. Shambles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie3Jack Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 Thanks guys. I own a bunch of 'vintage' irons: 1963 Hogan IPT 1967 Hogan Percussion (2.5" hosel) 1970 Hogan Bounce Sole 1+ 1978 MacGregor Tourney Custom 985 1981 Powerbilt H&B Grand Slam 1983 Hogan Apex PC 1987 Mizuno TN-87 I also own some Titleist 690 MB's, Srixon Pro 100's, Bridgestone J33 and Mizuno MP-62 irons. The best feeling irons to me are the '67 Hogan Percussions, Mizuno TN-87's, Srixon Pro 100's and the Mizuno MP-62's. The Bounce Sole 1+, Apex PC's, and Powerbilt H&B Grand Slams have nice feels to them as well, but the top sets I mentioned have extraordinary feel to them. I think it's personal preference (obviously), but I think I prefer the CoG lower on the clubface and with a moderate top line (by muscleback blade standards). But, I think it would be nice to figure out what clubs have certain designs...so that if somebody says that they loved the feel of a set of irons and I look at them and find that they have a low CoG and a moderate top line, then I should be interested in them. But if somebody says they like the feel of a set of irons and those irons have a very thin topline and a higher CoG, then I probably won't be as interested. 3JACK Author of Pro Golf Synopsis. The Moneyball approach to golf strategy and analysis.Driver: Wishon 919THI, 10° loft, UST Mamiya VTS Red 7x, 44-3/8” long, 2,825 kg/cm^2 MOIGONZO WOOD: confidential2-Hybrid: Mizuno Fli-HiCLK, 17° loft, 40-7/8" KBS Tour Hybrid shaft (stiff)3-Hybrid: Mizuno Fli-HiCLK, 20° loft, 40" KBS Tour Hybrid shaft (stiff)4-6 iron: Wishon 575MMC (CB)7-PW: Wishon 575MMC (MB)SW: Edel Golf driver grind, 52° loft, 16° bounce, Nippon WV 125 shaft.LW: Edel Golf Digger Grind, 60° loft, 27° bounce, Nippon WV 125 ShaftPutter: Edel Golf Columbia Custom Made, 35" long, 72° lie angle, 3° loft. Ball: Titleist Pro V1xGrips: PURE Grips P2 Wrap (red)Shoes: FootJoy Dry-Joy (black, size 14)3Jack's Golf Blog - http://3jack.blogspot.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG STU Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Thanks guys. I own a bunch of 'vintage' irons: 1963 Hogan IPT 1967 Hogan Percussion (2.5" hosel) 1970 Hogan Bounce Sole 1+ 1978 MacGregor Tourney Custom 985 1981 Powerbilt H&B Grand Slam 1983 Hogan Apex PC 1987 Mizuno TN-87 I also own some Titleist 690 MB's, Srixon Pro 100's, Bridgestone J33 and Mizuno MP-62 irons. The best feeling irons to me are the '67 Hogan Percussions, Mizuno TN-87's, Srixon Pro 100's and the Mizuno MP-62's. The Bounce Sole 1+, Apex PC's, and Powerbilt H&B Grand Slams have nice feels to them as well, but the top sets I mentioned have extraordinary feel to them. I think it's personal preference (obviously), but I think I prefer the CoG lower on the clubface and with a moderate top line (by muscleback blade standards). But, I think it would be nice to figure out what clubs have certain designs...so that if somebody says that they loved the feel of a set of irons and I look at them and find that they have a low CoG and a moderate top line, then I should be interested in them. But if somebody says they like the feel of a set of irons and those irons have a very thin topline and a higher CoG, then I probably won't be as interested. Jack if you ever want to get rid of the Macs please let me know to me those are sweet hitting clubs especially if you update the shafts. I am glad to see someone besides me loves the older clubs. I noticed you semingly prefer Hogan. I do carry Hogan wedges all of them 80s circa 3JACK Driver ---- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha Speeder 565 R flex- 5W TM V-Steel Fubuki 60r--- 7W TM V-Steel UST Pro Force Gold 65R----- 9 W TM V Steel TM MAS stiff---- Irons 2015 TM TP CB Steel Fiber 95 R--- GW Callaway Mack Daddy 2 52* shaft unknown junk pile refugee. SW Callaway PM Grind 56* Modified sole grind--- KBS Tour Wedge-- LW Vokey 58* SM5 L grind--- Putter Ping B90I Broom Stick G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG STU Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 3 Jack my last post did not come out right I musta done something wrong. Anyhow It is good to see someone like me that loves and plays the older blades. If you ever want to get rid of the Macs let me know. those 985s are sweet hitting especially when you put newer shafts in them. I see you are predominatly a Hogan fan. I do play Hogan wedges. I carry circa 80s W grind 56* and a 80s circa Special SW 60*I also alternate between my Mac VIP PW and an 80s model Hogan Equalizer both set at 47* Driver ---- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha Speeder 565 R flex- 5W TM V-Steel Fubuki 60r--- 7W TM V-Steel UST Pro Force Gold 65R----- 9 W TM V Steel TM MAS stiff---- Irons 2015 TM TP CB Steel Fiber 95 R--- GW Callaway Mack Daddy 2 52* shaft unknown junk pile refugee. SW Callaway PM Grind 56* Modified sole grind--- KBS Tour Wedge-- LW Vokey 58* SM5 L grind--- Putter Ping B90I Broom Stick G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie3Jack Posted February 24, 2011 Author Share Posted February 24, 2011 Thanks, Stu. There are a few iron sets that I may be willing to part with. I plan over the next few years to 'Pimp My Irons', probably 2 sets a year. I work on my swing quite a bit and it's pretty close to being where I want it. Once I get it where I want it, I will fit myself for shafts and then send a set of irons to the Iron Factory to get rechromed, re-shafted and re-gripped. 3JACK Author of Pro Golf Synopsis. The Moneyball approach to golf strategy and analysis.Driver: Wishon 919THI, 10° loft, UST Mamiya VTS Red 7x, 44-3/8” long, 2,825 kg/cm^2 MOIGONZO WOOD: confidential2-Hybrid: Mizuno Fli-HiCLK, 17° loft, 40-7/8" KBS Tour Hybrid shaft (stiff)3-Hybrid: Mizuno Fli-HiCLK, 20° loft, 40" KBS Tour Hybrid shaft (stiff)4-6 iron: Wishon 575MMC (CB)7-PW: Wishon 575MMC (MB)SW: Edel Golf driver grind, 52° loft, 16° bounce, Nippon WV 125 shaft.LW: Edel Golf Digger Grind, 60° loft, 27° bounce, Nippon WV 125 ShaftPutter: Edel Golf Columbia Custom Made, 35" long, 72° lie angle, 3° loft. Ball: Titleist Pro V1xGrips: PURE Grips P2 Wrap (red)Shoes: FootJoy Dry-Joy (black, size 14)3Jack's Golf Blog - http://3jack.blogspot.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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