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Long vs. Short Game

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17 hours ago, ncwoz said:

What's that?

Same as the clock method.   You learn distances for specific length swings and you can do with a single wedge or all your wedges.    I used to have a chart for PW-LW for 1/4, 1/2, and full swings and really need to do this again.   Once you have the distances,  unless you need to change trajectory or do something special you have yardages for most everything inside about 125 yards.

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"The fat guy in the rain coat" Pelzy, if I remember right, stated the guys that could get it up and down from 100 yards and in, were the money makers.  Of course he was a failed professional. So he went to his second love rocket science, so he probably knows something about numbers. I've worn out a couple of his books. I could usually hit (greens) at least a 1/3 and usually more than half, but rarely break 80. One day, I hit (I think) 16 or 17 greens and shot 74.....pretty pathetic if you think about it. If I was teaching, I would start them out around the greens and work back.

Edited by Walkin
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3 hours ago, Walkin said:

"The fat guy in the rain coat" Pelzy, if I remember right, stated the guys that could get it up and down from 100 yards and in, were the money makers.  Of course he was a failed professional. So he went to his second love rocket science, so he probably knows something about numbers. I've worn out a couple of his books. I could usually hit (greens) at least a 1/3 and usually more than half, but rarely break 80. One day, I hit (I think) 16 or 17 greens and shot 74.....pretty pathetic if you think about it. If I was teaching, I would start them out around the greens and work back.

Pelz did make his money marketing and selling short game and putting instruction, he has a vested interest in telling the world how important short game and putting is.  Of course, it's all important, but putting is the easiest to improve, the easiest to max out.  After that, you better improve the full swing game.  That's tougher, takes more time and more effort, but has the biggest upside.

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** Disclaimer - I'm not a great golfer, lol **

I was caught in the endless cycle of tee game strong, short game weak and vice versa.  Here is what I have found from my experience.  The reason I was struggling was because there is a difference from hitting a driver with a neutral or positive AOA vs hitting an iron/wedge/fairway with a negative AOA.  When my positive AOA was on point, I would crush my driver but then struggle with my irons.  When my negative AOA was shinning, irons were pure but the driver was erratic.  I could never quite figure out how to deliver the club with the driver and the irons consistently at the same time.  So I had a decision to make... I could commit to practicing/lessons and learn the correct way to deliver the club to the ball but that would require more practice and with a wife/kids/career etc I'd much rather spend my time playing.  The practice time I do have is used to work on my wedges/putting.  My decision was to abandon the positive AOA delivery (and the driver altogether).  Every other club in the bag I can deliver with a negative AOA and don't have to change anything between clubs.  Now I just hit 3-wood off the tee as my longest club.  I'm hitting the ball much straighter and more importantly I'm not losing balls (and costing me strokes) off the tee.  I also mostly play tees that are 6500 yards and under and its making my time on the course much more enjoyable.  Yes I'm hitting a lot more 6-8 irons into the green, rather than wedges but my scrambling is much improved (due to that being what I spend 90% of my practice time on).  This is just my experience on the course and I'm not even sure there is advice in my post but hopefully something in there might help you out.  

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SmoothG   does that name indicate your tempo? At  a 14 you and with a smooth swing  you can't be missing that many

fairways. Even if you do, that would eliminate problem # 2 lost balls. When you look for yours you will find many extras.  

In my years of playing I have found 10  5 gallon bucket full, that's 330  balls per bucket. To clean them just wrap your

cement mixer blades with synthetic grass. If you play with a group that may not be an option, but if you walk now and then

you'll find plenty. As far as practice goes, you're spot on with the short game, however the long game can be practiced at

home. In my case I just hung a recycled commerical fishing  net ($50.) between to trees and problem solved, also it's great

exercise at a moment's notice. I have confidence that you will figure out your face angle in no time. For me the driver is 

to much fun not to have in my bag. Now tell mama you have business in Paris tn., and I'll buy you a round or 2, and we have

an extra room. However it won't be free, as I'll be sure the lawn needs mowing!!    Friend   Bob

                              ps.    What I have found helpful, is I'll pick out an alignment aid about a foot or so in front of my ball and

take my setup from that. From there I forget about what's "out there" and put a SmoothG movie star swing on it and let the

producers edit in the results. Hope this helps (or at least makes sense).

 

 

 

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Spend equal time on all parts of your game except putting. Spend twice the amount of time on putting. Everyone has the better part of there game but spend time on the best part because you can improve on everything. For example I hit my long irons 10x’s better than I do my short irons and my driver is the best part of my game but I work on everything for 4 hrs 3 times a week no matter what.


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I prefer a long game rather than a short one. Long game is really exciting, more interesting and challenging rather than short one. I've been a fan of golf for many years. I consider myself as a golf nerd. I actually owned a website that creates guide for golf beginners.

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8 hours ago, Bobby Hurst said:

I prefer a long game rather than a short one. Long game is really exciting, more interesting and challenging rather than short one. I've been a fan of golf for many years. I consider myself as a golf nerd. I actually owned a website that creates guide for golf beginners.

So you've come to this website to plug your own website?

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9 hours ago, Bobby Hurst said:

I prefer a long game rather than a short one. Long game is really exciting, more interesting and challenging rather than short one. I've been a fan of golf for many years. I consider myself as a golf nerd. I actually owned a website that creates guide for golf beginners.

I would respectfully disagree. I think the short game (in my case 100 yds in) is more exciting because it requires a much higher skill level. But then that's just me. 

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1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

So you've come to this website to plug your own website?

Basically 

16 minutes ago, tony@CIC said:

I would respectfully disagree. I think the short game (in my case 100 yds in) is more exciting because it requires a much higher skill level. But then that's just me. 

I agree. Tons of options for club and shot choice. Long game is basically choose a club that goes the furthest

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  • What do the pros do?  
  • How much time do they devote to each specific part of their game?
  • How many strokes do you hit with your "long game"?
  • How many strokes do you hit with your "short game"?
  • How many strokes do you hit with your putter?

I played 9 holes Monday night.  I shot 42, and had 21 putts.  Based on that information only, and nothing else, what part of my game do you think I will be working on to improve that was 50% of my shots Monday night?

It's a pure numbers game to me.  1 drive on a hole, 1 approach shot on a hole, and 2 to 4 strokes around the green, depending on where I hit my approach shot.

The long game (and approach shot) is about course management.  Where do I hit this for a good miss?  Where do I hit this approach shot so that if I do miss I don't short side myself or give me an impossible up and down.  Long game I take hazards and bad angles out of play.

Short game is pure numbers and accuracy.  Wedges around the green and putting are all about trying to get in the hole in as few strokes as possible.  I just need my long game to get me there.

Aside from all of that, because I have a very limited amount of practice time, I'm going to spend 80+% of my practice time on putting and chipping.  The full swing comes and goes, but I can save myself a lot of strokes if I can maintain a good chipping and putting game.

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1 hour ago, GSwag said:
  • What do the pros do?  
  • How much time do they devote to each specific part of their game?
  • How many strokes do you hit with your "long game"?
  • How many strokes do you hit with your "short game"?
  • How many strokes do you hit with your putter?

I played 9 holes Monday night.  I shot 42, and had 21 putts.  Based on that information only, and nothing else, what part of my game do you think I will be working on to improve that was 50% of my shots Monday night?

It's a pure numbers game to me.  1 drive on a hole, 1 approach shot on a hole, and 2 to 4 strokes around the green, depending on where I hit my approach shot.

The long game (and approach shot) is about course management.  Where do I hit this for a good miss?  Where do I hit this approach shot so that if I do miss I don't short side myself or give me an impossible up and down.  Long game I take hazards and bad angles out of play.

Short game is pure numbers and accuracy.  Wedges around the green and putting are all about trying to get in the hole in as few strokes as possible.  I just need my long game to get me there.

Aside from all of that, because I have a very limited amount of practice time, I'm going to spend 80+% of my practice time on putting and chipping.  The full swing comes and goes, but I can save myself a lot of strokes if I can maintain a good chipping and putting game.

Number of putts can be misleading.  Of your 21 putts, how many times was your first putt from 30 or 40 feet?  Longer first putts result in more 3-putts.  If you had hit one more green in regulation, and had averaged 5 feet closer when you did hit the green in regulation, would that have helped your score?  I'm not suggesting that you not practice putting, only that improved full swings can make lower the number of putts you need.

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1 hour ago, GSwag said:
  • What do the pros do?  
  • How much time do they devote to each specific part of their game?
  • How many strokes do you hit with your "long game"?
  • How many strokes do you hit with your "short game"?
  • How many strokes do you hit with your putter?

I played 9 holes Monday night.  I shot 42, and had 21 putts.  Based on that information only, and nothing else, what part of my game do you think I will be working on to improve that was 50% of my shots Monday night?

It's a pure numbers game to me.  1 drive on a hole, 1 approach shot on a hole, and 2 to 4 strokes around the green, depending on where I hit my approach shot.

The long game (and approach shot) is about course management.  Where do I hit this for a good miss?  Where do I hit this approach shot so that if I do miss I don't short side myself or give me an impossible up and down.  Long game I take hazards and bad angles out of play.

Short game is pure numbers and accuracy.  Wedges around the green and putting are all about trying to get in the hole in as few strokes as possible.  I just need my long game to get me there.

Aside from all of that, because I have a very limited amount of practice time, I'm going to spend 80+% of my practice time on putting and chipping.  The full swing comes and goes, but I can save myself a lot of strokes if I can maintain a good chipping and putting game.

You can only manage what you can control.  If you can't produce a shot pattern you won't be able to manage it.  Best way to reduce shots around the green is to eliminate them.  Hit more greens - period!  In other words, change the assumption to the idea that you want to take 2-3 shots around the green and still make pars and bogeys and birdies.  How would you go about that task?  It is just a change in perspective.  

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37 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Number of putts can be misleading.  Of your 21 putts, how many times was your first putt from 30 or 40 feet?  Longer first putts result in more 3-putts.  If you had hit one more green in regulation, and had averaged 5 feet closer when you did hit the green in regulation, would that have helped your score?  I'm not suggesting that you not practice putting, only that improved full swings can make lower the number of putts you need.

This is a good point.  I believe the Shots Gained data support the idea that approach play is slightly more correlated to lower scores than putting. Both are quite important obviously.  I guess it depends on which part of your game you feel is weaker and what your practice goals are that determine your focus.

1 hour ago, GSwag said:

because I have a very limited amount of practice time, I'm going to spend 80+% of my practice time on putting and chipping

With limited time, maybe that's smart.  It's easier to get in a quick putting/chipping practice session.  And if 21 putts per round is your average there's plenty of gains to make there.  Good luck!

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3 minutes ago, TwoCoatsOfWax said:

With limited time, maybe that's smart.  It's easier to get in a quick putting/chipping practice session.  And if 21 putts per round is your average there's plenty of gains to make there.  Good luck!

Allocation of time can be difficult, and as you say, concentrating on a weakness is probably the best use of limited time.  I've recently begun using a Strokes Gained Putting calculator.  For my 7 rounds in Pinehurst last week, I lost between 0.3 and 4 strokes putting, as compared to the pro statistics.  Say I average losing 2 strokes on the greens, and with a 5.1 handicap index, my average differential is something like 8.  I'm losing 6 or more strokes (compared to pros) on the rest of my game.  I'm unlikely to gain more than a stroke or so on the greens, no matter how much I practice.  I could gain more strokes by improving my full swing, which is where I'll choose to spend the bulk of my practice time.

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On ‎10‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 3:48 PM, DaveP043 said:

Pelz did make his money marketing and selling short game and putting instruction, he has a vested interest in telling the world how important short game and putting is.  Of course, it's all important, but putting is the easiest to improve, the easiest to max out.  After that, you better improve the full swing game.  That's tougher, takes more time and more effort, but has the biggest upside.

Exactly!

Driver for show, putt for dough has been debunked.  I know that somebody will throw the fact that putter gets used 30 times a round and driver 14 times max to which I would replay that it's a golf course, the guy who covers it in the fewest strokes wins and my driver is going to cover about half the yardage while putter might cover 1/2 percent. 🙂

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I've worked on having a repeatable putting stroke and a few reliable shots around the greens. My short game is solid. That said, the single biggest determiner of score for me (and others) is the number of greens hit. High GIR is the common denominator for every truly special round of golf I've ever had. Have I put together a good round only hitting 9 or 10 greens? Yes but it's rare. Those days where my green count is high are also days where I'm driving it well. As I said, you need some reliable short game shots and understanding related to what a wedge/ball will do in certain situations but as RevKev said, the drive for show/putt for dough has been debunked. To score it requires golf IQ and solid fundamentals in all areas of your game.

 

 

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On 12/4/2019 at 1:08 PM, revkev said:

Exactly!

Driver for show, putt for dough has been debunked.  I know that somebody will throw the fact that putter gets used 30 times a round and driver 14 times max to which I would replay that it's a golf course, the guy who covers it in the fewest strokes wins and my driver is going to cover about half the yardage while putter might cover 1/2 percent. 🙂

This  is SO true. While a missed putt will result in another stroke, a missed driver or hybrid shot has the potential of affecting MANY following shots.  

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It's been mentioned before, but variability in practice after mechanics have been honed is very important.

We are never presented with the exact same shot every time on the golf course, so our practice has to change shot to shot for us to be able to implement it on the course. (This is purely outside of changing something in the swing)

This year, I began choosing a specific target and ball flight characteristic for each shot after my maintenance section of practice and found that helped me on the course. The balance between short and long game is tricky, but I have begun to spend more time with my chipping and putting than my long game. If I feel confident that I can get up and down from anywhere, I'm not scared by what will happen with my long game. (I do spend some time working on that swing maintenance. It's not an all of nothing approach)

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20 years ago when I was able to play 3 or 4 times a week the game would converge and all aspects would occasionally click.  Now, only being able to play once a week I've just accepted that rounds will be a good driving round, a good chipping round, a good putting round but seldom 2 of the 3 and never all 3 clicking.  Sorry, caught in a memory... the only way i've found to have a consistent is frequent play.  Practice can help you get the basic but on course correction and adaptation is how to put together a complete game.

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