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10 hours ago, ChasingScratch said:

 

 

Concerning focusing on driving distance or putting, I guess it depends on who you are playing with. I play with a few guys who will literally 4 or 5 putt most greens. It’s painful to watch. Horrible speed and distance control.

 

If you are missing a 6 footer by 6 feet, it’s hard to get better.

 

Also, the point I was making on the IG post was that amateurs can gain distance by moving up in tee boxes without actually having to hit the ball any farther than they already do. Only those playing in competition are forced into a set tee box (thus why the stats for the pros suggest that the farther they hit it the better they score, they all putt amazingly well already). The recreational golfer playing for fun could go all the way up to the front boxes and turn their 175yd drive into the equivalent of a 300yd bomb just by moving up.

 

Maybe it’s two ways of saying the same thing?

 

 

 

After the mention of your IG post I went back and read the information and it definitely makes sense. I think it is totally applicable when comparing players of similar abilities.  The longer hitting player will definitely have an advantage.    This doesn't mean that you as a player only need to focus on hitting it longer.   A 20+ handicapper can hit is 300 yards,  but if they fail to hit the green and have the pressure to get up and down constantly or have lots of 3 putts,  their scores will suffer.  Every player needs to analyze their game and see where they are losing the most strokes.   For me,  it has been working on short game when I miss the green as well as hitting more greens in regulation.  

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After the mention of your IG post I went back and read the information and it definitely makes sense. I think it is totally applicable when comparing players of similar abilities.  The longer hitting player will definitely have an advantage.    This doesn't mean that you as a player only need to focus on hitting it longer.   A 20+ handicapper can hit is 300 yards,  but if they fail to hit the green and have the pressure to get up and down constantly or have lots of 3 putts,  their scores will suffer.  Every player needs to analyze their game and see where they are losing the most strokes.   For me,  it has been working on short game when I miss the green as well as hitting more greens in regulation.  

 Exactly. In any one foursome you may have: 

1: 50yr old whose max drive goes 240yds

1: 42yr old whose average drive goes 285

1: senior whose average is 175yds

1: 33yr old who can hit it 300+

 

The 50yr old and senior might not be able to do anything to improve distance anymore (injuries, time, or any other thing, this is not a stereotype, just a hypothetical example). But what they can do is move up tee boxes to negate the advantage the 33 and 42yr old have, and now it’s pretty much a level field.

 

This hypothetical group is not too far off from a group I play with. Yet the short hitters still insist to play from where myself and the other long hitter play from. On par 3’s, they’re hitting 3 wood where I’m hitting 7iron. That’s not even close to a fair fight.

 

If you are not in a position to work on improving distance with the driver, best strategy may be to move up tee boxes and practice the short game.

 

Pros, college player, and competitive juniors all play the exact same course, thus longer tee shots = advantage. That’s why I said on IG that the range from best to worst putter on the PGA tour is only 2.5 putts/round, where as the longest and shortest hitters range is 40yds!! That’s insane, and why driving distance has such an impact on score at the professional level.

 

At the recreational level, driver distance should be a non-issue (or significantly minimized) if we play the correct tee boxes.

 

 

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 Exactly. In any one foursome you may have: 1: 50yr old whose max drive goes 240yds
1: 42yr old whose average drive goes 285
1: senior whose average is 175yds
1: 33yr old who can hit it 300+
 
The 50yr old and senior might not be able to do anything to improve distance anymore (injuries, time, or any other thing, this is not a stereotype, just a hypothetical example). But what they can do is move up tee boxes to negate the advantage the 33 and 42yr old have, and now it’s pretty much a level field.
 
This hypothetical group is not too far off from a group I play with. Yet the short hitters still insist to play from where myself and the other long hitter play from. On par 3’s, they’re hitting 3 wood where I’m hitting 7iron. That’s not even close to a fair fight.
 
If you are not in a position to work on improving distance with the driver, best strategy may be to move up tee boxes and practice the short game.
 
Pros, college player, and competitive juniors all play the exact same course, thus longer tee shots = advantage. That’s why I said on IG that the range from best to worst putter on the PGA tour is only 2.5 putts/round, where as the longest and shortest hitters range is 40yds!! That’s insane, and why driving distance has such an impact on score at the professional level.
 
At the recreational level, driver distance should be a non-issue (or significantly minimized) if we play the correct tee boxes.
 
 
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One of the things I see consistently is players using the wrong tee box. And it's not just distance (although that obviously is a significant issue) but typically playing further back requires more skill in general. I'm thinking about sight lines, narrower landing areas, forced carries which along with length, are often intimidating. Most golfers over-estimate how far they carry the ball which causes all sorts of problems. I'm not a long hitter anymore (105 mph) - I average 275 (carry and roll) although I can hit close to 300 if all my launch conditions are perfect and the strike is good and I have moved up a tee box from the back tees. It's still a good test of golf where I will typically hit every club in my bag at least once but it's a bit more fun. These kinds of discussions are good because it causes us to evaluate our own games - strengths and weaknesses - and hopefully make whatever changes are necessary in terms of distance.


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51 minutes ago, ChasingScratch said:

The 50yr old and senior might not be able to do anything to improve distance anymore (injuries, time, or any other thing, this is not a stereotype, just a hypothetical example).

If you are not in a position to work on improving distance with the driver, best strategy may be to move up tee boxes and practice the short game.

 

 

... Glad this isn't a stereotype but I do dislike reading about seniors that have lost distance and just accepted it. Plus 50 ain't no senior 😉. I am 66 and driving it as far as I ever have. I work out to keep up my strength and equally if not more important, I eat right both on and off the course. 

... That said I do understand your example though, and I see and hear it all the time. "As I have gotten older I have lost a lot of distance" but they are usually overweight, out of conditioning shape and having a beer/soda and a hot dog along with some candy on the course which all works against them not for them. If you have lost distance, I agree moving up is a great idea, but I just think a much better idea is put in some work on your body-mind-spirit and gain back some of that distance. Todays equipment can enhance most anyones game with the right head/shaft/ball. 

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To be honest, I've never given this question much thought.  We always play from the white tees as these are generally considered suited for double digit handicap players. I do note that on a good many holes at various courses, playing the blue or black tees might be an advantage because hazards that are reachable or not carried on a solid drive do not come into play at my typical drive distance. I'd be better off short of these in trade for the yardage.  Of course on the flipside is that the longer par 3's become even longer and par 4's that much more challenging to reach in regulation. 😮  I would say that, as a general rule, courses tee lengths, hole yardage, and hazard lengths off the tee are well designed - at least that's been my experience.

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... Glad this isn't a stereotype but I do dislike reading about seniors that have lost distance and jut accepted it. Plus 50 ain't no senior . I am 66 and driving it as far as I ever have. I work out to keep up my strength and equally if not more important, I eat right both on and off the course. 

... That said I do understand your example though, and I see and hear it all the time. "As I have gotten older I have lost a lot of distance" but they are usually overweight, out of conditioning shape and having a beer/soda and a hot dog along with some candy on the course why all works against them not for them. If you have lost distance, I agree moving up is a great idea, but I just think a much better idea is put in some work on your body-mind-spirit and gain back some of that distance. Todays equipment can enhance most anyones game with the right head/shaft/ball. 


100%!! I meant no disrespect sir! I plan to stay in-shape and active as long as I can as well.

My example was mainly from my playing partner’s experience. Not too many Gary Player’s and Bernhard Langer’s at my courses. lol

You hit it on the head with taking care of one’s mind, body, and spirit. The PGA Senior tour players still smash it!


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4 minutes ago, golfertrb said:

One of the things I see consistently is players using the wrong tee box. And it's not just distance (although that obviously is a significant issue) but typically playing further back requires more skill in general. I'm thinking about sight lines, narrower landing areas, forced carries which along with length, are often intimidating. Most golfers over-estimate how far they carry the ball which causes all sorts of problems. I'm not a long hitter anymore (105 mph) - I average 275 (carry and roll) although I can hit close to 300 if all my launch conditions are perfect and the strike is good and I have moved up a tee box from the back tees. It's still a good test of golf where I will typically hit every club in my bag at least once but it's a bit more fun. These kinds of discussions are good because it causes us to evaluate our own games - strengths and weaknesses - and hopefully make whatever changes are necessary in terms of distance.

 

 

... And this is true for players of all levels. My favorite local course is a links style course and the Golds are a few yards short of 6900. Blue tees are 6466. It is always windy and some days very windy so while I can play from 6900, it would be a long difficult day with any winds over 5mph. The 4th hole is a par 5 the plays uphill off the tee, then slightly downhill for the rest of the way. 513yds and I eagled it yesterday it a gentle helping wind, hitting my very best drive and 3 wood combo to about 12 feet. It is difficult to hit 2 just about perfect shots in a row but nice to be rewarded when I do. From the back tees at 544 I would have zero chance of getting on in 2. 

... Another par 5 on the back 9 plays 500 from the Blues and 525 from the Golds. 25 yds doesn't seem like a lot but it is a gentle dogleg left with trees blocking the left side. Anything on the right side is good but from the back tees, even middle left means I am blocked out unless I hit me best drive. From the Blues those extra 25 yds allow me to see half of the fairway and hit a straight shot or a gentle draw, not a big sweeping hook just to find the fairway but most importantly, a decent but not great drive leaves me a 2nd shot from the Blues that I would not have from the Golds. 

... There are a few more holes that are problematic from the back tees and change the way I would play the hole, but I think you all get the idea. Playing tees that are challenging and penalize your poor shots, yet reward your good shots is something every player should evaluate when choosing which tees to play. 

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To be honest, I've never given this question much thought.  We always play from the white tees as these are generally considered suited for double digit handicap players. I do note that on a good many holes at various courses, playing the blue or black tees might be an advantage because hazards that are reachable or not carried on a solid drive do not come into play at my typical drive distance. I'd be better off short of these in trade for the yardage.  Of course on the flipside is that the longer par 3's become even longer and par 4's that much more challenging to reach in regulation.   I would say that, as a general rule, courses tee lengths, hole yardage, and hazard lengths off the tee are well designed - at least that's been my experience.


Yeah it seems like no matter what tee box you play (if it’s the right box for your distance off the tee), those fairway bunkers are magically in play! Lol


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"Playing tees that are challenging and penalize your poor shots, yet reward your good shots is something every player should evaluate when choosing which tees to play."

 

 

Chisag - your post really resonated with me and it is really summed up with the quote above. Living in Oklahoma the wind is often a factor and will certainly impact the length of the course significantly. I can still play the back tees and will if others want to but part of thr reason I have moved from the Black to the Blue Tees is just what you described. I had an eagle last week on a par 5 that is 513 yards that sounds very similar to what you described - uphill tee shot, downhill second shot. I hit a 3 wood to about 6 feet but from the Black tees it's another 20 yards or more depending on where they put them and I'm not getting there and I still had to hit a solid drive and 3 wood. On the same hole this week I hit driver, 2 iron but didn't hit it as close and hit my "best" drive which doesn't happen all the time by any means. The course is certainly challenging but a bit more enjoyable from the Blues vs the Black.

 

I would enjoy playing with you sometime if that were ever possible. Maybe in AZ sometime :)

 

 

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5 hours ago, chisag said:

... Glad this isn't a stereotype but I do dislike reading about seniors that have lost distance and just accepted it. Plus 50 ain't no senior 😉. I am 66 and driving it as far as I ever have.

Interesting you mention this.  At 58, I too feel like I'm driving the ball as far (maybe a wee bit farther) than when I was much younger.  No doubt this is a reflection of improved equipment - but I digress.  What really caught my eye in your response is how many "seniors" play from the senior tees and still hit drives that far exceed the difference in yardage (and I'm not talking driver distance only). Yesterday one of the two guys I played with hit from the forward tees and sure seemed to have both game and distance to be playing from the white tees.  He also drove a cart, so it wasn't due to walking distance.

A fair number of courses suggest tees based on the players handicap - I've never seen one that says "XX and older play here".  Not sure that one's age is a good basis for playing senior tees.  Heck, I've seen 20 and 30 year olds playing from TIPS that would be better off playing from the senior tees 🙂.

 

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Longer yardage can make a difference if you are hitting fairway woods/hybrids or long irons into greens intead of mid or short irons.  I personally try to play at 5500 yards or less.  Any more than that and I feel like I simply dont have the distance to score well.

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Interesting you mention this.  At 58, I too feel like I'm driving the ball as far (maybe a wee bit farther) than when I was much younger.  No doubt this is a reflection of improved equipment - but I digress.  What really caught my eye in your response is how many "seniors" play from the senior tees and still hit drives that far exceed the difference in yardage (and I'm not talking driver distance only). Yesterday one of the two guys I played with hit from the forward tees and sure seemed to have both game and distance to be playing from the white tees.  He also drove a cart, so it wasn't due to walking distance.
A fair number of courses suggest tees based on the players handicap - I've never seen one that says "XX and older play here".  Not sure that one's age is a good basis for playing senior tees.  Heck, I've seen 20 and 30 year olds playing from TIPS that would be better off playing from the senior tees .
 


Indeed, that’s why I’m a fan of removing the terms “ladies” and “seniors” tees from golf in general. Just call them a color tee box or something else fun.


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6 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Heck, I've seen 20 and 30 year olds playing from TIPS that would be better off playing from the senior tees 🙂.

Remember though, they hit that one drive 300 yards dead straight at altitude that one time, therefore they are qualified to play courses in excess of 7,000 yards all of the time. Despite that a normal drive is 220 yards sliced into the adjacent fairway/trees/hazard.

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11 hours ago, ChasingScratch said:

 


Indeed, that’s why I’m a fan of removing the terms “ladies” and “seniors” tees from golf in general. Just call them a color tee box or something else fun.


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That's an idea.  Should the decision on which to use be based on handicap or driving length, or?

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That's an idea.  Should the decision on which to use be based on handicap or driving length, or?


I think it should still be based on length.

You could even call them something like the ‘Hogan tees’ or ‘Nicklaus tees’ (all names of all-time great golfers) and just take the ego out of it.

Heck can even call the front tees the “fun tees” and see if that makes a difference.

Imagine pulling up to the first hole and the group being like, “Let’s play the fun tees today!”


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41 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

That's an idea.  Should the decision on which to use be based on handicap or driving length, or?

 

... Yup, I agree with chasingscratch. As I have stated repeated times, most holes are designed to be played a specific way. If you can't reach a dogleg from the tee, you are probably playing the wrong tees. If you can't reach an average length par 5 with a 3rd shot using a short iron or worst case a mid iron, you are probably playing the wrong tees. Par3/4's are also designed to have a certain club used for the approach shot with open fronts for a long iron/hybrid/wood run up or deep bunkers guarding the front so a short/mid iron can clear the bunker but still hold the green. 

... Obviously if you are distance challenged for a myriad of reasons, playing the most forward tees will give you your best chance at playing the course the way it was designed. For most players, it is pretty obvious by fairway bunkers that should be in play off the tee or dog legs you can reach and the ability to reach almost all par 4's with an iron although some courses have one or 2 very difficult par 4's where a hybrid or wood might be needed but have an open front to the green so you can land short and roll on.  

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Fw wood: Cobra Speedzone 14.5* ... Atmos TS Blue 75s
Utility:   TaylorMade RBZ Tour Hy ... Matrix Altus 85 hy
Irons:    4-Gw Titleist T100-S ... Kuro Kage 105 Tini s-flex
              4-pw TaylorMade P760 ... Recoil Prototype 95 r-flex
Wedges:  SM6 52* F Grind /SM7D & SM8M 58* ... Recoil 110s
Putter:  Newport 2.5 at 33"
Ball:  TaylorMade TP5x

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Golf courses can be so funny sometimes. For example, the course I played yesterday had two holes back to back that were 485yds.

One was a par 4 that had no trouble on it. I made par (big drive, 8iron on, 2-putt).

The very next hole was a par 5 (with fairway bunkers in play and a creek right in front of and touching the green, so it’s all carry and the green is very shallow as opposed to the monster sized green on the previous par 4). I hit another perfect drive and an iron onto the green, two putt birdie.

Same distance but the hazards on the par 5 made it a par 5 I guess?


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

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Instagram:  @_chasing_scratch

YouTube: Chasing Scratch

Facebook:  Chasing Scratch

:SuperSpeed: Training

Pre training max driver speed: 124mph

Current: 130mph

WITB:

Driver: :ping-small: G400 LST 8.5* with HZRDUS SMOKE 6.5 70g 

Woods: :taylormade-small: 2007 Burner TP 3 wood and 5 wood

Irons:  :srixon-small: Z765 4-PW (1 degree flat) with KBS $-130 shafts

Wedges:  Vokey SM7 50/12/F, 54/10/S and 58/12/D

Putter:  :ping-small: Sigma 2 Tyne 4, 32.5", 1* loft

Ball:  :srixon-small: Z-Star XV

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Here's some hard evidence that makes interesting reading.

 

Scottish Golf Amateur Championships recently at the Dukes Course, St Andrews.

Ballot to even play, handicap must be less than 0.4 😮
 
First 2 days. Off Blue Tees approx 7100 yds.
 
Most difficult hole no 8 par 3 194yds SI 16
 
2nd hardest is no 18 par 4 386 yds SI 9 
 
Not always SI 1 that gets you. Scores over 2 days range from 63 to 93.
 
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Driver     Awaiting NEW Driver (after 10 yrs)  
4 Wood   Callaway Big Bertha Steelhead plus 4+  :callaway-small: Callaway shaft in 'Firm' flex

Hybrid     Titleist 910H 19*    :titelist-small:   Diamana ahina 'flower' shaft in 'S'

Irons         Mizuno MP18SC 4-PW   :mizuno-small:  N.S Pro Modus3 Tour 105 in 'S'

Wedges    Callaway Mack Daddy forged in black 50* and 54*  :callaway-small:   KBS Tour in 'R'

Putter        'YES' Tracy 11 C groove 34.5"

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Fascinating thread.

One of the big trends in junior golf instruction is Operation36.  Basically, we have kids start playing from 25 yards away, and once they can shoot 36 from that distance, they move back to the next yardage, and so on.

op36-chall.jpg?fit=1030,579&ssl=1

It's pretty brilliant.  Rounds move quickly (compare that to the Bataan death march that PGA Junior League can become).  And as long as a kid can putt reasonably well, they have a chance at success.  And if they can't get down in four from 25 yards away, they honestly don't need to be trying anything more difficult than that.

Frankly, making 8's, 9's and 10's isn't fun for kids, and I don't see how it's fun for anyone.  If I were starting an adult new in golf (for instance, if I could ever get my wife to start playing), I'd do this.

 

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What's in the bag:
Driver - :cobra-small: F8 - Aldila NV Blue 60 ( S )
3 Wood (16*) - :cobra-small: F8 - Aldila NV Blue 60 ( S )
2 Hybrid - Titleist 585 (17*) - Titleist 4175 ( R )
4i - LW - :cobra-small: F8 - N.S. Pro Modus3 Tour105 ( S )
Putter - :ping-small: Craz-e
Bag - :1590477705_SunMountain: 2.5 (Forest Green)
Ball -  :Snell: MTB-X
Instagram - @hardcorelooper
Twitter - @meovino
Facebook - mike.eovino
 

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Fascinating thread.
One of the big trends in junior golf instruction is Operation36.  Basically, we have kids start playing from 25 yards away, and once they can shoot 36 from that distance, they move back to the next yardage, and so on.
op36-chall.jpg?fit=1030,579&ssl=1
It's pretty brilliant.  Rounds move quickly (compare that to the Bataan death march that PGA Junior League can become).  And as long as a kid can putt reasonably well, they have a chance at success.  And if they can't get down in four from 25 yards away, they honestly don't need to be trying anything more difficult than that.
Frankly, making 8's, 9's and 10's isn't fun for kids, and I don't see how it's fun for anyone.  If I were starting an adult new in golf (for instance, if I could ever get my wife to start playing), I'd do this.
 


I love this idea! Not a bad idea for adults either. This concept was mentioned earlier by another member. Basically you play the farthest forward tees until you can shoot par then work your way back one box at a time.


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy
  • Like 1

Instagram:  @_chasing_scratch

YouTube: Chasing Scratch

Facebook:  Chasing Scratch

:SuperSpeed: Training

Pre training max driver speed: 124mph

Current: 130mph

WITB:

Driver: :ping-small: G400 LST 8.5* with HZRDUS SMOKE 6.5 70g 

Woods: :taylormade-small: 2007 Burner TP 3 wood and 5 wood

Irons:  :srixon-small: Z765 4-PW (1 degree flat) with KBS $-130 shafts

Wedges:  Vokey SM7 50/12/F, 54/10/S and 58/12/D

Putter:  :ping-small: Sigma 2 Tyne 4, 32.5", 1* loft

Ball:  :srixon-small: Z-Star XV

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