Callaway Driver fails R&A COR test before The Open

[Hamachi Style]

It’s still on Callaway for taking all that into account. Margin of error


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[chisag]

On 7/19/2019 at 9:10 PM, cksurfdude said:

Yeah, I was wondering if this is an issue with the "Tour Only" heads .. which obviously receive the "custom treatment" (g. shaving the face) vs mass production retail heads...

 

... The Pro's clubs don't have shaven faces on their woods because that would invite failure in the middle of the round. The OEM's test and select the heads picking those closest to legal and then stock the Tor Van's with those heads to provide maximum performance. They go right up to the limit and I imagine if they tested every single head at any given tournament, they might find more than a couple that exceed the limit, albeit just barely. 

Edited July 21, 2019 by chisag

[TR1PTIK]

On 7/19/2019 at 4:55 PM, PMookie said:

There have been multiple reports that this is pretty common with the Tour heads, but the Big Name players never have theirs checked. DJ, Brooks, Woods, Mickelson, Garcia, etc never get “called” for testing. I wish they tested them all in the tunnel on the way to the first tee.


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It's been speculated that many of the tour vans have a drawer somewhere with properly spec'd heads for these random tests and that the players are often playing heads that exceed tolerances. Somebody either screwed up or they actually managed to pull this club from Schauffele's bag.

Edited July 22, 2019 by TR1PTIK

[Brian A]

If they measured everyone's I bet a lot more would fail than pass. Its like the NHL and the "illegal" curve, most guys use sticks with illegal curves, no one really challenges it and they all go about their business. 

What I dont get is the excuse, if you know how the R&A measures something, why wouldn't the OEM measure it the same way?

[cnosil]

What I dont get is the excuse, if you know how the R&A measures something, why wouldn't the OEM measure it the same way?

I think everyone measures the same way, but they use different devices and each device has to be calibrated and read, each machine that was built has QC tolerances, and each person reading the machine may see thinks a little differently.

Think about the ball tests and how each one is slightly different. The head may have passed on the OEM machine and failed on the R&A machine. Based on what was posted by Tony Covey, the heads barely failed.

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 hours ago, TR1PTIK said:

It's been speculated that many of the tour vans have a drawer somewhere with properly spec'd heads for these random tests and that the players are often playing heads that exceed tolerances. Somebody either screwed up or they actually managed to pull this club from Schauffele's bag.

They used the club from his bag. They test what the player has on them. Callaway testing (whenever they did it) showed his head was compliant and he’s been using it all year. Callaway didn’t think it would fail.  

Ive read elsewhere that over time thru use compliant heads can become non compliant as they soften. It’s possible that could have been the case here. 

[sixcat]

For those suggesting the R&A are at fault, I couldn't disagree more.  I have seen no evidence whatsoever the R&A leaked anything or even mentioned any driver failed a test.  Much less, Xander Schauffele's Callaway driver failed.  Until I see evidence the R&A leaked anything regarding failed drivers, I will continue to presume they are not at fault.

Xander Schauffele, however, has taken to every medium he can find to shout at the clouds!

[TR1PTIK]

13 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

They used the club from his bag. They test what the player has on them. Callaway testing (whenever they did it) showed his head was compliant and he’s been using it all year. Callaway didn’t think it would fail.  

Ive read elsewhere that over time thru use compliant heads can become non compliant as they soften. It’s possible that could have been the case here. 

After commenting, I did some research on the topic and found similar information. Different results due to the various tolerances at play is also a good theory. 

[sixcat]

1 minute ago, TR1PTIK said:

After commenting, I did some research on the topic and found similar information. Different results due to the various tolerances at play is also a good theory. 

Not to mention, if Callaway is testing with the use of a "soft" golf ball, the results will be skewed.  We all know from our friends at MGS, soft = slow!  

[TR1PTIK]

7 minutes ago, sixcat said:

For those suggesting the R&A are at fault, I couldn't disagree more.  I have seen no evidence whatsoever the R&A leaked anything or even mentioned any driver failed a test.  Much less, Xander Schauffele's Callaway driver failed.  Until I see evidence the R&A leaked anything regarding failed drivers, I will continue to presume they are not at fault.

Xander Schauffele, however, has taken to every medium he can find to shout at the clouds!

I haven't seen anything either. In fact, one story I read said they reached out to the R&A for comment about the other drivers that failed the test and the R&A declined to comment. So basically, there would not have been a story if Xander hadn't outed himself. I think he just had a bad round and wanted something to blame. R&A deems driver non-conforming = easy culprit. In truth, it should not have even mattered. These guys are supposed to be world-class players and have the very best fitters with the best equipment and tools available to them. I know they can pickup on the most minute details of a club or ball, but I also know they could light my home track on fire with a boxed set from Walmart...

[Kenny B]

Xander Schauffele's driver failed the R&A driver test... but so did 3 others.

https://www.golfchannel.com/news/2019-british-open-xander-schauffele-becomes-first-fail-ras-driver-test

Out of the random 30 drivers tested, that's 13%!!  SO, who is responsible?  The golfer?  The OEM?  

If 13% of the drivers tested failed, should that mean that ALL drivers be tested before every tournament?  Before every round?... because golfers could change drivers between rounds.

How would they do that??

I understand the reasoning is to protect the field, but if that's the case, then every driver needs testing.

Is MyGolfSpy going to randomly test drivers now like they are testing golf balls??

[MaxEntropy]

I get that all the manufacturers want to put the hottest faces out there for their pros and I doubt there is any intent to be over the limit, especially with the threat of random testing. I looked at the USGA document that outlines the procedure and device used to test and to me it seems like a very poor design - no wonder the tolerance is +/- 7.5% (granted, OEM's want to play on the plus side only). I'm assuming the R&A uses the same design.

IMO, the easy way to fix this is to design and build a proper testing device, mandate that any OEM that wants to play needs to purchase an identical unit, and then make it traceable (like laser engraving a bar code on each hosel the ruling body can scan at any event to pull up the test history). Periodically audit each OEM to make sure their equipment is operating in spec or have them upload every set of data they measure on heads potentially in-play and the ruling bodies can peruse as they see fit to look for trends. If, as Tony suggests, the CT gets a bit longer as the face gets older, I think they should mandate testing be done on a regular interval, as well.

[TR1PTIK]

14 minutes ago, MaxEntropy said:

I get that all the manufacturers want to put the hottest faces out there for their pros and I doubt there is any intent to be over the limit, especially with the threat of random testing. I looked at the USGA document that outlines the procedure and device used to test and to me it seems like a very poor design - no wonder the tolerance is +/- 7.5% (granted, OEM's want to play on the plus side only). I'm assuming the R&A uses the same design.

IMO, the easy way to fix this is to design and build a proper testing device, mandate that any OEM that wants to play needs to purchase an identical unit, and then make it traceable (like laser engraving a bar code on each hosel the ruling body can scan at any event to pull up the test history). Periodically audit each OEM to make sure their equipment is operating in spec or have them upload every set of data they measure on heads potentially in-play and the ruling bodies can peruse as they see fit to look for trends. If, as Tony suggests, the CT gets a bit longer as the face gets older, I think they should mandate testing be done on a regular interval, as well.

I think there are several good suggestions here. If you truly wanted to enforce such a rule and do it properly and fairly, periodical testing on identical, properly calibrated equipment, and results archived to see trends just makes sense. It would require some money to put in place and maintain, but the PGA Tour, USGA, R&A, and all the OEMs have more than sufficient funds to support such an effort.

[sixcat]

Does anyone really believe OEM's don't know they are flying a bit too close to the sun with Tour specs?  It's not like anyone on Tour is playing the same equipment you or I can buy retail!

[RickyBobby_PR]

5 hours ago, TR1PTIK said:

I haven't seen anything either. In fact, one story I read said they reached out to the R&A for comment about the other drivers that failed the test and the R&A declined to comment. So basically, there would not have been a story if Xander hadn't outed himself. I think he just had a bad round and wanted something to blame. R&A deems driver non-conforming = easy culprit. In truth, it should not have even mattered. These guys are supposed to be world-class players and have the very best fitters with the best equipment and tools available to them. I know they can pickup on the most minute details of a club or ball, but I also know they could light my home track on fire with a boxed set from Walmart...

More than likely one if the players who started teasing him during the practice round was around the testing and that’s how it got started and Xander decided to address it but put the blame in the wrong spot

[sixcat]

 

[tehuti]

+ or - 7.5% seems like a pretty generous range to me. If you are building heads that close to the edge it’s on you (meaning Callaway) if one of your heads fails.


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[PMookie]

If they measured everyone's I bet a lot more would fail than pass. Its like the NHL and the "illegal" curve, most guys use sticks with illegal curves, no one really challenges it and they all go about their business. 
What I dont get is the excuse, if you know how the R&A measures something, why wouldn't the OEM measure it the same way?

Goalie pads used to be the same way, but Patrick Roy came out every game and filled-up the goal.


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[MaxEntropy]

41 minutes ago, tehuti said:

+ or - 7.5% seems like a pretty generous range to me. If you are building heads that close to the edge it’s on you (meaning Callaway) if one of your heads fails.


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My bet is the garbage design in the USGA spec may not be much better than +/-7.5% and that the OEM'S have better designs which allow them to measure more accurately and push the envelope a little more. At least that's what I would do. 

[Kenny B]

6 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Lots of talk already going on in this thread 

 

Maybe the Mods could merge this thread with the other.

So sorry... I've been in the wilds of N. Idaho without internet for 3 days, and I did not see that thread before posting.  I still don't know how the R&A and USGA would be able to test everyone's driver.  If they don't test everyone, what's the point of testing 30?  The field may still not be protected.

[FrogginBullfish]

Xander said the leak were coming from other players or caddies on the range and not the R&A.

https://www.golfchannel.com/news/xander-schauffele-clears-air-failed-driver-test-dont-think-ra-leaked-information

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[silver & black]

If they tested everyone's driver, I'm sure there would be quite a few more that didn't pass muster. Actually.... I really don't care.

[Kenny B]

1 hour ago, silver & black said:

If they tested everyone's driver, I'm sure there would be quite a few more that didn't pass muster. Actually.... I really don't care.

All drivers tested last year passed.  This year 4 out of 30 drivers tested failed.  The fact that the R&A didn't think that was problem and didn't test everyone's driver is what surprises me.  Potentially, there could have been 16-17 more drivers in the field that were illegal.

Actually, I wonder if having a hot-faced driver on a links course might be a bad thing.

[RickyBobby_PR]

6 hours ago, Kenny B said:

All drivers tested last year passed.  This year 4 out of 30 drivers tested failed.  The fact that the R&A didn't think that was problem and didn't test everyone's driver is what surprises me.  Potentially, there could have been 16-17 more drivers in the field that were illegal.

Actually, I wonder if having a hot-faced driver on a links course might be a bad thing.

If they test everyone it’s not random. Then they would also have to test every head on the trucks. 

 

[sixcat]

8 hours ago, Kenny B said:

All drivers tested last year passed.  This year 4 out of 30 drivers tested failed.  The fact that the R&A didn't think that was problem and didn't test everyone's driver is what surprises me.  Potentially, there could have been 16-17 more drivers in the field that were illegal.

Actually, I wonder if having a hot-faced driver on a links course might be a bad thing.

I believe were coming to a point where professional golf at the highest levels is going to have to test everyone some how, some way.  They are simply playing for too much money for some not to see the incentive in cheating.  I'm certainly no Nascar or Tour de France fan but both test everyone and they compete for far less than PGA Tour players do.  And both still find deliberate cheaters.

I'm not suggesting Xander cheated.  I honestly believe he had no idea.  But Callaway did know, or at least they should have known.  When you fly that close to the sun with specs, you're going to get burned at some point.

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 hours ago, sixcat said:

I believe were coming to a point where professional golf at the highest levels is going to have to test everyone some how, some way.  They are simply playing for too much money for some not to see the incentive in cheating.  I'm certainly no Nascar or Tour de France fan but both test everyone and they compete for far less than PGA Tour players do.  And both still find deliberate cheaters.

I'm not suggesting Xander cheated.  I honestly believe he had no idea.  But Callaway did know, or at least they should have known.  When you fly that close to the sun with specs, you're going to get burned at some point.

Xander’s driver failed by 1 ct point which is about 1 yard of distance.  There’s no benefit to a company to have their product be perceived as cheating and it doesn’t help the golfer either because what sponsor would want to sign a cheater.

The issue with the test was two different machines used for testing.  It’s still a bad look for Callaway to not have tested their players drivers before going over to the open. JT replaced his because he felt it was close to possibly failing a test...I’m guessing titleist must have tested it and he chose to avoid any issues.

 

[sixcat]

11 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Xander’s driver failed by 1 ct point which is about 1 yard of distance.  There’s no benefit to a company to have their product be perceived as cheating and it doesn’t help the golfer either because what sponsor would want to sign a cheater.

The issue with the test was two different machines used for testing.  It’s still a bad look for Callaway to not have tested their players drivers before going over to the open. JT replaced his because he felt it was close to possibly failing a test...I’m guessing titleist must have tested it and he chose to avoid any issues.

 

I read that about JT and Titleist.  Titleist always seems to be one step ahead in the equipment industry.  They have been at the top of their industry for so many years for a reason.  The name is synonymous with quality and excellence.  Callaway has never given me that same sense or feeling.  It's definitely not a good look for Callaway no matter how you slice it.  I don't think it's any reflection on Xander though.  This is just another example of the need for the governing bodies to unify and work together to simplify rules, equipment standards and overall betterment of the game.  

[cnosil]

. JT replaced his because he felt it was close to possibly failing a test...I’m guessing titleist must have tested it and he chose to avoid any issues.
 

Or said, use this driver if you have to to submit to testing. Players can switch clubs all week long. Does the R&A put a sticker on the driver to say confirming or non conforming? Are non confirming confiscated to ensure they aren’t put into play?

Do something like NASCAR and confiscate the top ten players clubs as they leave 18 on Sunday and test them. Fail the test you are DQ’d.

What is the penalty for actually failing the test? Xander’s became public, but what was the impact to the other 3?

[sixcat]

16 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Or said, use this driver if you have to to submit to testing. Players can switch clubs all week long. Does the R&A put a sticker on the driver to say confirming or non conforming? Are non confirming confiscated to ensure they aren’t put into play?

Do something like NASCAR and confiscate the top ten players clubs as they leave 18 on Sunday and test them. Fail the test you are DQ’d.

What is the penalty for actually failing the test? Xander’s became public, but what was the impact to the other 3?

 

Good point!  Titleist could have easily known their driver might fail the R&A testing given the different methods used and had JT take his driver out of play to avoid conflict.  Like I said, every manufacturer flies too close to the sun with specs.  Especially for Tour players.  Geoff Ogilvy was talking about this on a recent podcast.  He eluded to a "secret drawer" where the hottest driver heads were placed for immediate delivery to the Tour vans.  The less hot driver heads would go to retail.

According to that same podcast, the offending drivers were confiscated.  Xander's issues became public because Xander made it public.  He has nobody else to blame for that but himself.  But that still doesn't make him a cheater.

[RickyBobby_PR]

40 minutes ago, cnosil said:

 

Or said, use this driver if you have to to submit to testing. Players can switch clubs all week long. Does the R&A put a sticker on the driver to say confirming or non conforming? Are non confirming confiscated to ensure they aren’t put into play?

Do something like NASCAR and confiscate the top ten players clubs as they leave 18 on Sunday and test them. Fail the test you are DQ’d.

What is the penalty for actually failing the test? Xander’s became public, but what was the impact to the other 3?

 

Not sure what the R&A does with the club but I would imagine it’s some how prevented from going back in play.

with guys having to get out of town for the next event like this weeks wgc it would be hard to hold up guys for testing after Sunday’s round. 

The results are confidential and im assuming any penalties are too. It appears Xander didn’t like the ribbing he was getting from fellow players and turned something that was probably nothing into a story so that it would generate some kind of buzz to get more people tested. Imo he went about the whole situation like a spoiled brat and focused his rage in the wrong direction.

i think a better fix would be for the usga to get off their scared backsides and do random tests at pga tour events.