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Sluggo42

All drivers equal nowadays?

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I think so. It’s not like there are any clubs that are 10 yards longer than the rest. I think we’re down to subtle things like adjustability and twisty face things now, and that fitted shafts are the true things that’ll make a difference...

I say this as I check this page daily, and it’s virtually the same for months. The irons page however has lots of changes going on... shafts too. I mean some of the new irons go so far it’s ridiculous.

Shafts seems to be the thing in my mind that will be the next major development in golf. I predict someone figures out how to make a shaft “kick” the ball an extra 20 yards within the next 5 years...

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Agreed. Every major manufacturer has already reached max conformity, even pushing pass the legal limit. I think continued development in maintaining forgiveness or ball speeds across the face is the next marketing ploy. This has been the season for putter shafts and golf balls.

Sent from my SM-G960U using MyGolfSpy mobile app

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9 hours ago, Sluggo42 said:

I think so. It’s not like there are any clubs that are 10 yards longer than the rest. I think we’re down to subtle things like adjustability and twisty face things now, and that fitted shafts are the true things that’ll make a difference

I agree 100% that all drivers produce about the same. I also believe 100% is you can play any driver head (from major brands not Walmart or Target drivers), put a shaft (the engine to the club) that's fitted to you, and produce the same type of numbers. To me the quantifying factor is feel, and which driver head you like the feel of and swing weight the best.

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Theoretically all drivers are equal on perfect shots. There are things outside the shaft that influence and may make one driver better than another for you. Things like weight distribution, total weight, lie angle, where you miss, and the influence the look of the driver has on you swing. Some of those you can adjust and some you can’t. Shaft will help consistency and dispersion but won’t necessarily make a head that isn’t ideal for you work better. For example a lightweight XXIO driver design for slow swing speed players will not equal heavy headed weight forward head even with the optimal shaft.

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All drivers are equal.  All swings are not.  One driver will perform better for player A and fail for player B.  I'd put less emphasis on the brand and more emphasis on how it performs for my swing when going with a new driver.

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2 hours ago, Maltenator said:

I agree 100% that all drivers produce about the same. I also believe 100% is you can play any driver head (from major brands not Walmart or Target drivers), put a shaft (the engine to the club) that's fitted to you, and produce the same type of numbers. To me the quantifying factor is feel, and which driver head you like the feel of and swing weight the best.

I don’t necessarily agree. While the shaft may supply the power thru loading/unloading it’s more of a tuning mechanism to optimize launch conditions. Getting the right loft so that launch is in the right window is more important. The shaft can then be used to tweak the launch and spin and feel. 

I don’t agree that any shaft can be plugged into any head. I’ve been to several fittings and something like the hzrdus yellow has worked in a few heads but didn’t work in a couple others. Same for iron shafts. Kbs $ taper worked in some heads while not so much in others. 

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Driver heads have varying levels of fade/draw bias which may "work" for everyone but certain players would be better served by 1 bias versus the other. Even more of an issue with high or normal spin heads versus lower spinning models. 

There are a few drivers that have the same stock Tensei and Project X shafts this year... Go test a few out and see if your trackman numbers are the same. I would bet the EPIC flash, M5, and G410 perform noticeably different for most people. 

Fitting only for shaft and ignoring head doesn't make sense. 

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Man, I’m not so sure. I’ve hit every driver on the market this year, did fittings (minimum of stock options) and saw HUGE differences. Is the CT maxed, COR as well? Probably, but we have the issue of MANUFACTURER’S TOLERANCES. Loft might be off by as much as two degrees. Weighting could be off by a few ounces, COR/CT of each head can vary (Schauffele), so I wouldn’t say they’re all equal.
I saw a 4 mph gain in ball speed from the EXS vs my G400 LST. That’s a LOT for me at 112-113 mph! The M5 and M6 couldn’t stay on the planet. The G410 was so-so.
Weighting in the heads is different due to if the crown is graphite, or of it’s titanium, and ball speeds high off the head will differ just because there is either graphite or titanium up there behind the strike.
I was unable to get fitted and get ALL DRIVERS to show me the same numbers. Not even close, across the board. Look at the MGS testing. GREAT variances....
Yes, CT and COR are generally at the limits, but all drivers are not equal.......

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I think they are close but I don't think they are equal by any means. I was gaming a rogue prior to being selected to be a tester for the flash. I picked up 10-15 yards overnight. Yes it was a newer generation driver but it shouldn't amount to that type of gain. Most manufacturers produce great drivers but IMO in order for them to be equal I should be able to hit each one the same and that simply is not the case. I think that what we are seeing is that it is easier to produce optimum launch conditions and ball speeds with all the options available. But that doesn't mean they are equals.  

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I think they are close but I don't think they are equal by any means. I was gaming a rogue prior to being selected to be a tester for the flash. I picked up 10-15 yards overnight. Yes it was a newer generation driver but it shouldn't amount to that type of gain. Most manufacturers produce great drivers but IMO in order for them to be equal I should be able to hit each one the same and that simply is not the case. I think that what we are seeing is that it is easier to produce optimum launch conditions and ball speeds with all the options available. But that doesn't mean they are equals.  


I agree partner. The Flash driver continues to amaze me!
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Love the thread but I would answer no -

All drivers produced by OEMs are of reasonably good quality - I agree with that premise - but certainly not the same.  Each one has its theory as to how to get to max performance which means that certain heads will work better for certain swing types.

With all due respect to some of our respondents it's most certainly not all about the shaft.  It's all about the entire fit and as others have accurately stated a shaft/head combo from a certain OEM for a certain player will not necessarily mean that the same shaft is ideal in the next head for that same player -

You just need to be fit to get maximized.

In regards to it being all about irons at this time of year here that's because they are what are being released and tested at this point.  Drivers came out at the end of last season, the beginning of this one.  In fact MGS called this the year of the driver early on and from everything our Most Wanted Testers have said and I've seen I have little doubt that they were right.  This was one of those year's when most OEM's offered heads that increased launch and reduced spin - the prescription for more distance.

If anything you could argue that it is irons that change the least - the advent of Player's Distance Irons over the last few years has been intriguing but other than that there really has been very little new to look at over the past 10 years or so.  Granted there has been a move this year by some OEM's to make their GI irons a bit more compact and visually appealing.  But I'm not quite sure how successful they've been.  At least for me I found that I hit my G30 irons much better than the G410. 

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5 hours ago, THEZIPR23 said:

I think they are close but I don't think they are equal by any means. I was gaming a rogue prior to being selected to be a tester for the flash. I picked up 10-15 yards overnight. Yes it was a newer generation driver but it shouldn't amount to that type of gain. Most manufacturers produce great drivers but IMO in order for them to be equal I should be able to hit each one the same and that simply is not the case. I think that what we are seeing is that it is easier to produce optimum launch conditions and ball speeds with all the options available. But that doesn't mean they are equals.  

10-15 yards overnight! So was the older Rogue a fitted driver? Because the Rogue isn’t a short club. Was the Flash off the shelf? Or customer fit with aftermarket shaft? So something happened, because I don’t think that with all other things be equal,  the flash is going to outgain the Rogue by that kind of distance.

But, if both were equal and the Flash crushes the Rogue like that, I guess I better go get me one, and hang up the LST, as it’s about 2 years old now.

but seriously, I don’t see that gain coming from two (off the shelf) clubs, right?

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1 hour ago, Sluggo42 said:

10-15 yards overnight! So was the older Rogue a fitted driver? Because the Rogue isn’t a short club. Was the Flash off the shelf? Or customer fit with aftermarket shaft? So something happened, because I don’t think that with all other things be equal,  the flash is going to outgain the Rogue by that kind of distance.

But, if both were equal and the Flash crushes the Rogue like that, I guess I better go get me one, and hang up the LST, as it’s about 2 years old now.

but seriously, I don’t see that gain coming from two (off the shelf) clubs, right?

Rogue was fitted at club champion. Flash was fitted with local pro. It blew my mind. If you haven’t read review, check it out. I wasn’t only one that saw increases like that. 


 

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3 hours ago, Sluggo42 said:

10-15 yards overnight! So was the older Rogue a fitted driver? Because the Rogue isn’t a short club. Was the Flash off the shelf? Or customer fit with aftermarket shaft? So something happened, because I don’t think that with all other things be equal,  the flash is going to outgain the Rogue by that kind of distance.

But, if both were equal and the Flash crushes the Rogue like that, I guess I better go get me one, and hang up the LST, as it’s about 2 years old now.

but seriously, I don’t see that gain coming from two (off the shelf) clubs, right?

 

2 hours ago, THEZIPR23 said:

Rogue was fitted at club champion. Flash was fitted with local pro. It blew my mind. If you haven’t read review, check it out. I wasn’t only one that saw increases like that. 


 

I didn't have much Arccos data from my TS2, but that was mostly because Flash was so much better. More consistent distance, and my longest drives were at least 10y longer -- so I had to put it straight into the bag. As I said in my review, the Smoke in my TS2 was a bad fit for me, but on mishits Flash feels like I get more out of it.

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So does the gain between your prior drivers and this year's flash speak more to a better fitting this time around or the club? 

It does seem like this year's iteration of drivers have greater adjustability and also a wider range of shaft selections at no upcharge. 

The proper head (setting as well) plus the proper shaft could net 15 yards without a doubt.  We are certainly at an time where driver fitting is essential.  There are so many choices and so much adjustability that one needs to maximize what he or she has. 

If you don't believe it just take your driver and adjust it to its maximums in either directions - you will see huge differences in results there and that's without changing shafts. 

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8 hours ago, yungkory said:

 

I didn't have much Arccos data from my TS2, but that was mostly because Flash was so much better. More consistent distance, and my longest drives were at least 10y longer -- so I had to put it straight into the bag. As I said in my review, the Smoke in my TS2 was a bad fit for me, but on mishits Flash feels like I get more out of it.

So we are talking gains in total yards right and not carry?

what was the ball speed between the two? What were your launch angle, spin and descent angles?

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There are so many variables to this that it is hard to determine what would create the gains. As I stated in my original post do the heads differ in weight, is there more forgiveness where the player mishits, are the shafts the same weight, are the shafts the same length, does the club change how you swing? I would expect to see more variation club to club if you simply go off the rack. The gap would narrow if you start looking at fitted shafts. From my own recent experiments with some driver shafts, I saw a 15 yard gain in carry. Multiple reasons mostly attributed to changing angle of attach from slightly down/level to 1.5 up, and 1 1/4 shorter shaft length and more efficient strokes. Now if I can find a shaft that helps me get the an upward angle of attack I will see better results. I personally went from 250ish with poor efficiency to 265+ with better efficiency.

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4 hours ago, revkev said:

So does the gain between your prior drivers and this year's flash speak more to a better fitting this time around or the club? 

It does seem like this year's iteration of drivers have greater adjustability and also a wider range of shaft selections at no upcharge. 

The proper head (setting as well) plus the proper shaft could net 15 yards without a doubt.  We are certainly at an time where driver fitting is essential.  There are so many choices and so much adjustability that one needs to maximize what he or she has. 

If you don't believe it just take your driver and adjust it to its maximums in either directions - you will see huge differences in results there and that's without changing shafts. 

I went to a lighter shaft that I was able to increase CHS with and decrease dispersion.  Prior to the flash a light shaft did not equate to dispersion results that were acceptable. 

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3 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

So we are talking gains in total yards right and not carry?

what was the ball speed between the two? What were your launch angle, spin and descent angles?

Total distance as seen on Arccos, and being closer to greens than I ever have been at my "home" course. Don't remember all of my LM data from the fitting. SS was up from TS2 from a better fitting shaft alone, but as I mentioned, Flash still seems to do better across the face than TS2 did.

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On ‎8‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 7:53 PM, revkev said:

Love the thread but I would answer no -

All drivers produced by OEMs are of reasonably good quality - I agree with that premise - but certainly not the same.  Each one has its theory as to how to get to max performance which means that certain heads will work better for certain swing types.

With all due respect to some of our respondents it's most certainly not all about the shaft.  It's all about the entire fit and as others have accurately stated a shaft/head combo from a certain OEM for a certain player will not necessarily mean that the same shaft is ideal in the next head for that same player -

You just need to be fit to get maximized.

In regards to it being all about irons at this time of year here that's because they are what are being released and tested at this point.  Drivers came out at the end of last season, the beginning of this one.  In fact MGS called this the year of the driver early on and from everything our Most Wanted Testers have said and I've seen I have little doubt that they were right.  This was one of those year's when most OEM's offered heads that increased launch and reduced spin - the prescription for more distance.

If anything you could argue that it is irons that change the least - the advent of Player's Distance Irons over the last few years has been intriguing but other than that there really has been very little new to look at over the past 10 years or so.  Granted there has been a move this year by some OEM's to make their GI irons a bit more compact and visually appealing.  But I'm not quite sure how successful they've been.  At least for me I found that I hit my G30 irons much better than the G410. 

Dead on it Rev

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