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All drivers equal nowadays?


Sluggo42
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On ‎8‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 9:28 PM, Sluggo42 said:

10-15 yards overnight! So was the older Rogue a fitted driver? Because the Rogue isn’t a short club. Was the Flash off the shelf? Or customer fit with aftermarket shaft? So something happened, because I don’t think that with all other things be equal,  the flash is going to outgain the Rogue by that kind of distance.

But, if both were equal and the Flash crushes the Rogue like that, I guess I better go get me one, and hang up the LST, as it’s about 2 years old now.

but seriously, I don’t see that gain coming from two (off the shelf) clubs, right?

Kinda like Rev and others have said just depends. For me I am still gaming my Homna over my 915 D-2. I hit a cut by design and the Homna does not have as bad of sidespin for me as the 915. We have proved that on the launch monitor. Now with the Homna if I do catch it in the toe some I can get a wicked rolling hook but that is rare for me. On the other hand if I catch the 915 in the toe it goes pretty straight and rolls like a freight train. But a toe hit hook is rare for me. Now I will add both of those drivers have off the shelf shafts but both have been tuned frequency wise and the heads have been tuned weight wise and placement wise. I have put the Homna against some of the newer drivers on the machine at PGASS. those new drivers did have stock shafts. Of course the one guy at PGASS figured out my driver had been tweaked and tuned some. Played with a guy today that is a club tinkerer himself. He had an older Cally X-1. He had a couple shafts he was experimenting with. I do remember the one shaft was a Project x and I can not recall what the other one was but he hit it well. now that Cally X-1 is about a 3 year old head but he was bombing it out there in the fairway straight around 280 290 or so. Like I told him that X-1 head IMHO is one of the best heads Cally made. I have messed with that head some and liked it. Was actually going to buy a used demo one from my course but got to messing with the 915 and then the Homna. But like I say different strokes for different folks

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My G25 driver stays in my bag not because I am cheap (well, I am) but because none of the new drivers have outperformed it.  Fitter this spring just shook his head after seeing my initial numbers with the G25 and said that will be hard to beat.  Forty-five minutes  and a bunch of combinations later, he threw in the towel.  Part of it is just familiarity I am sure but I just do not think driver tech has improved much in 6 years (at for my swing, which is not particularly high spin).

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... Interesting premise. It is true and it is false at the same time. Some golfers will hit the same drives regardless of which driver they try. Others can find 10-15 yds or more difference. Take 20 golfers at a demo day and let them hit every driver with multiple shafts and you will have different players hitting a given driver better than others. Every OEM will have a driver someone hits best. Difference in trajectory, spin, sound, feel and look can influence anyone's swing. And then the placebo phenomenon of hitting driver A well and driver B/C/D poorly can change your attitude about those drivers even of they fit you perfectly. 

... Lastly I would add that when I switched from a Cobra F9 10.5* to a 9* I gained a good 10 yards or more. Reduced spin and a more shallow descent contributed to the extra distance. 

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Driver:   TaylorMade SIM2 Max 10.5* ... Diamana Ltd 60R
Fairway:  TaylorMade SIM2 Max 15* ... Tensei Raw Blue 65R
                TaylorMade SIM2 Max 18* ... Tensei Raw Blue 65R
Utility:   TaylorMade UDi 18* ... Even Flow Black 85R
               TaylorMade DHy 19* ... Diamana Ltd 65R
              Taylor Made Sim Hybrid 22* ... Diamana Ltd 75R
Irons:    4-Pw Cobra King Tour MIM ... Steelfiber 95R
Wedges:  Cobra Snakebite 50* ... Steelfiber 95R
                 TaylorMade MG3 58* LB ... Steelfiber 95R
Putter:  Cleveland Hunting Beach Soft 11S 33.5"
Ball:      TaylorMade TP5x (2021)

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54 minutes ago, chisag said:

... Interesting premise. It is true and it is false at the same time. Some golfers will hit the same drives regardless of which driver they try. Others can find 10-15 yds or more difference. Take 20 golfers at a demo day and let them hit every driver with multiple shafts and you will have different players hitting a given driver better than others. Every OEM will have a driver someone hits best. Difference in trajectory, spin, sound, feel and look can influence anyone's swing. And then the placebo phenomenon of hitting driver A well and driver B/C/D poorly can change your attitude about those drivers even of they fit you perfectly. 

... Lastly I would add that when I switched from a Cobra F9 10.5* to a 9* I gained a good 10 yards or more. Reduced spin and a more shallow descent contributed to the extra distance. 

A properly fit driver in the last 3-5 years of not further back on center face contact will net minimal gains. Some gains in either distance and/or dispersion can be seen on off center hits thanks to improving technology on the use of materials and moving weight around. Some of that distance will come from better ball speeds but as the usga and r&a start enforcing the ct testing across the face those gains are going to be less

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Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

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1 minute ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

A properly fit driver in the last 3-5 years of not further back on center face contact will net minimal gains. Some gains in either distance and/or dispersion can be seen on off center hits thanks to improving technology on the use of materials and moving weight around. Some of that distance will come from better ball speeds but as the usga and r&a start enforcing the ct testing across the face those gains are going to be less

 

... While I agree and think everyone would benefit from a professional fitting, how many players have "properly fit drivers"? Dead center will produce different trajectory and spin for any given golfer. In my case an additional 10 yds just by switching heads, not even a different driver. And then of course some drivers perform better with heel shots, toe shots and high or low shots. My miss is high but rarely low and the F9 really excels with high on the face shots. Someone who's miss is low would probably do better with a different driver. 

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Driver:   TaylorMade SIM2 Max 10.5* ... Diamana Ltd 60R
Fairway:  TaylorMade SIM2 Max 15* ... Tensei Raw Blue 65R
                TaylorMade SIM2 Max 18* ... Tensei Raw Blue 65R
Utility:   TaylorMade UDi 18* ... Even Flow Black 85R
               TaylorMade DHy 19* ... Diamana Ltd 65R
              Taylor Made Sim Hybrid 22* ... Diamana Ltd 75R
Irons:    4-Pw Cobra King Tour MIM ... Steelfiber 95R
Wedges:  Cobra Snakebite 50* ... Steelfiber 95R
                 TaylorMade MG3 58* LB ... Steelfiber 95R
Putter:  Cleveland Hunting Beach Soft 11S 33.5"
Ball:      TaylorMade TP5x (2021)

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57 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... While I agree and think everyone would benefit from a professional fitting, how many players have "properly fit drivers"? Dead center will produce different trajectory and spin for any given golfer. In my case an additional 10 yds just by switching heads, not even a different driver. And then of course some drivers perform better with heel shots, toe shots and high or low shots. My miss is high but rarely low and the F9 really excels with high on the face shots. Someone who's miss is low would probably do better with a different driver. 

Switching heads I’m guessing you are referring to loft since something like a ts2 to ts3 would be a different driver. Even so different lofts is a different driver. But that also gets to a proper fit driver. 

The number of golfers vs the ones that are properly fit it even have more than a quick session in a big box store are is most of the golfin public. It’s why distance is the main marketing point. Find some added speed on off center face and sell some clubs.

 

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Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

A properly fit driver in the last 3-5 years of not further back on center face contact will net minimal gains. 

32DBEF41-AC62-432A-9C3C-922503229E70.thumb.jpeg.3123272d7625a706fee8df12ccd86784.jpeg

Epic Flash. 

173C660B-FFC0-4D67-B2DF-CE981F3FE8C1.thumb.jpeg.c4177d3445908152458218aa3cdf7175.jpeg
Rogue properly fit. 
 

14 yards gained on “center Hits”. 21 yards gained on “off center hits”

Huge difference between drivers. I would imagine I could hit other heads and the results will be different as well. 
 

I know that the rogue was properly fit at the time, when I went through a fitting at club champion there was nothing he could put together that would beat the results I was seeing. My guess is that the Flash was not properly fit as it was the only shaft I tried before LM went out. It could have been just a lucky guess by fitter but chances are there are a few more yards in there. 

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Waiting for @jlukesto weigh in... but he's probably out at the range with his G410. 😉  I'd say they are really close at this point and, as several have pointed out, it has become more of a swing match/shaft match that separates one from the other as better.  

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I'd have to say all drivers are far from equal.  Are there any bad drivers made by major OEMs?  Not at all.  Every driver has a place and fit.  Some drivers will fit a larger subset of people (see MGS Most wanted results), while others maximize results for only a small percentage of golfers.

As @chisag mentioned, even the same head performs differently in different lofts. To say all drivers are equal is simply not true.

One quick glance at the Mygolfspy 2019 Driver Center of Gravity and MOI report should tell you that all drivers are not equal

https://mygolfspy.com/2019-driver-center-of-gravity-and-moi-report/

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23 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Waiting for @jlukesto weigh in... but he's probably out at the range with his G410. 😉  I'd say they are really close at this point and, as several have pointed out, it has become more of a swing match/shaft match that separates one from the other as better.  

Heading to the range in about 30 minutes 🙂

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:ping-small: G410 LST 9* VA Nemesys 65X

:ping-small: G425 LST 14.5* Tour AD DI 7X

:titelist-small: 818 H2 20* Tour AD DI 85X

:mizuno-small: MP20 HMB 4 - Tour AD 95X

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23 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

as several have pointed out, it has become more of a swing match/shaft match that separates one from the other as better.  

Couldn't agree more, especially as heads have universal tolerances and rules whereas shafts only need to adhere to some looser rules and guidelines.

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But it does seem pretty universally agreed upon, that the biggest differences or gains, come from a fitting, and a shaft.

i wonder, has anyone gotten deeply fitted with different heads and found much difference?

say a epic head and a billion dollar shaft, and then a f9 head, with a truly custom fit, and come up with a mega difference?

not like Chisag gaining 10 yards with a different loft of the same head, because a truly custom fit should have identified that the first time around right?

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10 hours ago, Sluggo42 said:

But it does seem pretty universally agreed upon, that the biggest differences or gains, come from a fitting, and a shaft.

i wonder, has anyone gotten deeply fitted with different heads and found much difference?

say a epic head and a billion dollar shaft, and then a f9 head, with a truly custom fit, and come up with a mega difference?

not like Chisag gaining 10 yards with a different loft of the same head, because a truly custom fit should have identified that the first time around right?

 

... Keep in mind the F9 difference is not just loft. Compare the 10.5* to the Epic and the 9* to the Sub Zero because they are different heads with different weighting and launch properties. And yes, a custom fit would have made that obvious but I got mine from Cobra well before they were released and had to pick one without hitting it.  

Edited by chisag
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Driver:   TaylorMade SIM2 Max 10.5* ... Diamana Ltd 60R
Fairway:  TaylorMade SIM2 Max 15* ... Tensei Raw Blue 65R
                TaylorMade SIM2 Max 18* ... Tensei Raw Blue 65R
Utility:   TaylorMade UDi 18* ... Even Flow Black 85R
               TaylorMade DHy 19* ... Diamana Ltd 65R
              Taylor Made Sim Hybrid 22* ... Diamana Ltd 75R
Irons:    4-Pw Cobra King Tour MIM ... Steelfiber 95R
Wedges:  Cobra Snakebite 50* ... Steelfiber 95R
                 TaylorMade MG3 58* LB ... Steelfiber 95R
Putter:  Cleveland Hunting Beach Soft 11S 33.5"
Ball:      TaylorMade TP5x (2021)

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10 hours ago, Sluggo42 said:

But it does seem pretty universally agreed upon, that the biggest differences or gains, come from a fitting, and a shaft.

i wonder, has anyone gotten deeply fitted with different heads and found much difference?

say a epic head and a billion dollar shaft, and then a f9 head, with a truly custom fit, and come up with a mega difference?

not like Chisag gaining 10 yards with a different loft of the same head, because a truly custom fit should have identified that the first time around right?

You're really underestimating the differences. The first step any reputable fitter will take in a fitting is to identify the optimal head. 

Again look at the MGS article around center of gravity and moi to see just how different heads are. Sure, there are heads that are more similar to others, but for the most part they're all unique 

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On 8/23/2019 at 2:28 AM, Sluggo42 said:

10-15 yards overnight! So was the older Rogue a fitted driver? Because the Rogue isn’t a short club. Was the Flash off the shelf? Or customer fit with aftermarket shaft? So something happened, because I don’t think that with all other things be equal,  the flash is going to outgain the Rogue by that kind of distance.

But, if both were equal and the Flash crushes the Rogue like that, I guess I better go get me one, and hang up the LST, as it’s about 2 years old now.

but seriously, I don’t see that gain coming from two (off the shelf) clubs, right?

If you haven't hit the Flash, go do so. The same thing happened to me the other day when I finally went and tested this years drivers.

I'm an avid YouTube watcher and I was under the impression that all drivers are basically equal after watching all the reviews and comparisons, there is nothing between them usually. Problem is, the guys doing the reviews are Pro's and their swings are very, very good. Us hackers and duffers have swings that work for one thing and not for another.

I went to a local big box store (American Golf) and hit just about every newer driver out there. Before I went in I warmed up with a few swings of my SuperSpeed sticks to make sure my own driver got a fair crack of the whip.

Started with my own driver, launching too high and spinning too much as expected. (2016 M1 10.5 lowered to 9 with Atmos Black stiff shaft). Dispersion was OK, all the misses to the right as I'm trying to play a fade.

Hit the Flash Sub Zero at 9 with the Hzrdus Smoke 6.0. Bombed everything down the middle. 11 drives with the biggest miss being 5 yards left. The dispersion on screen was the size of a thimble compared to the M1. 15 yards of carry with even the 2 heel strikes being the same distance as my good ones with the M1.

Tried the Rogue Sub Zero at 9 with the Even Flow Blue. Was all over the place, massive misses left and right. Changed to the Hzrdus Smoke and started hitting everything on line but was about 10 yards down on the Flash on good hits and nearly 17 yards on miss hits.

I then tried the Ping G410 (not a fair test as they only had it in 10.5), M6 in 9 and Cobra F9 in 9 and nothing came close to that Flash.

At the end I hit another 5 with the Flash just to check and I got the same results. It was at least 8 yards longer on carry to anything else and the dispersion was ridiculous.

I'm now booked in next Tuesday to another shop (an actual Callaway fitting day at a range close to me) to rule out any nefarious going ons at AG as with each club the guy changed the colours and I don't know if he changed any other settings. For all I know he was maybe on a bonus to sell more Flash drivers. 😉 

I now feel like a fool for not trying these out early as the season is just about over and I'm trying to resist the urge to buy a Flash Sub Zero even although it will likely go down in price when Callaway inevitably release a new club in a few months.

So for me, all drivers where certainly not equal.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 8/22/2019 at 10:02 AM, RickyBobby_PR said:

I don’t necessarily agree. While the shaft may supply the power thru loading/unloading it’s more of a tuning mechanism to optimize launch conditions. Getting the right loft so that launch is in the right window is more important. The shaft can then be used to tweak the launch and spin and feel. 

I don’t agree that any shaft can be plugged into any head. I’ve been to several fittings and something like the hzrdus yellow has worked in a few heads but didn’t work in a couple others. Same for iron shafts. Kbs $ taper worked in some heads while not so much in others. 

Completely agree with you. As you said, the shaft plays a part in optimizing the spin, but you definitely can't put it into any head. In my driver fitting recently, I had to move to a different driver head instead of replacing the shaft because I needed a head with a forward weight. The only three drivers that I could get my spin numbers optimal, even with a very low spin shaft, were the Epic Flash SZ, Cobra F9 (weight forward), and the Ping G410 LST.

Shaft is important, but there are still differences between driver heads.

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Driver:     image.png.4b2e2de291c6e3e8a5ad94e9f2919ba6.png Mavrik SZ - GD XC-7X

3 Wood:   image.png.fa4b3f2cf297aab0430b504772faa7d2.png Taylormade SIM - GD AD-DI 7X

Hybrids:  image.png.4b2e2de291c6e3e8a5ad94e9f2919ba6.png Apex 20* - GD AD-DI 95X

Irons:      image.png.4b2e2de291c6e3e8a5ad94e9f2919ba6.png  Apex Pro '19 - DG X100 4-PW

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  • 1 month later...

Yep all drivers are created equal...

Except for the launch angles, the weight, the face shape, the head shape, the balance, the look, the sound, the feel.

Apart from those things, they are all identical.

Sent from my Power using Tapatalk

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