McIlroy Player of the Year

[revkev]

Majors have prestige for their traditions and in some cases the courses as well. Everyone wants to win majors and the media has conditioned everyone to the importance of them. The coverage around them the week before and the days leading up to the tournament round is non stop. The commentary during the rounds is different and so focused on the “pressure of the moment.”  You get some of this at WGCs and The Players. 
I think it would be hard to say whether the masters, the open and the us open is bigger than the other since a lot of that depends on perspective of the fan or player but I think being the oldest major the open is the highest, followed by the us open because everyone wants to win their country’s open. The masters is great and with its lifetime exemption to the event and the history around it could be an easy argument to be 1 or 2. The pga is the red headed step child of majors
From a PGA tour standpoint the majors and the players get the same FedEx cup points. Winning a major is 50 pts more than winning a WGC and 100 pts more than other pga tour events.
We as fans put the majors way above everything else and believe they trump everything. Look at the debate about the open champ and the masters champ not being in the tour championship despite their years being mediocre. 
If brooks wins 2 majors and the bridges event no doubt he wins player of the year over rory and his season. If brooks added another victory he wins the award. At 3 wins each and both having one big tournament victory worth the same FedEx cup points and tour championship being bigger than wgc st Jude and Rory winning the Canadian Open that trumps the bridges event.

I agree with nearly all of what you’ve written except the implication that fans value majors more than players do. Nicklaus made the pursuit of majors paramount and Tiger’s pursuit of Jack has set that opinion in stone - not fans’ opinions about majors.

I suspect there is a wider opinion about the importance of majors among players than among the fans - most guys aren’t going to win majors, fewer still multiple majors and the gap between 2 and 3 majors is a dividing line.

Some guys may be sick of hearing about Brook’s great play in the Majors - they don’t care about majors - they are just trying to keep their card.

I don’t believe the opinions on tour are monolithic in regards to this topic. I’d love to see how the players voted and learn why.

It’s been nice to see that happen in baseball with the Hall of Fane vote.


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[Kenny B]

Without knowing who voted or how many players voted, we will never know for sure if the vote was close or the result was decided by a certain contingent of players.  The total number of votes could have been so few that it would be embarrassing to the Tour to release that information.

[Kenny B]

Actually, Koepka won the PGA of America Player of the Year and was the 2018-2019 money winner.  The winner is based on a points system.

McIlroy won the PGA Tour Player of the Year.  The winner is based on Tour player votes, 'nuff said.

[RickyBobby_PR]

22 minutes ago, revkev said:

 

I agree with nearly all of what you’ve written except the implication that fans value majors more than players do. Nicklaus made the pursuit of majors paramount and Tiger’s pursuit of Jack has set that opinion in stone - not fans’ opinions about majors.

I suspect there is a wider opinion about the importance of majors among players than among the fans - most guys aren’t going to win majors, fewer still multiple majors and the gap between 2 and 3 majors is a dividing line.

Some guys may be sick of hearing about Brook’s great play in the Majors - they don’t care about majors - they are just trying to keep their card.

I don’t believe the opinions on tour are monolithic in regards to this topic. I’d love to see how the players voted and learn why.

It’s been nice to see that happen in baseball with the Hall of Fane vote.


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I wasn’t trying to say fans value more than players, rather we put too much emphasis on them when looking at certain aspects of the game due to the way they are presented. When it comes to accomplishments they are the goal of every golfer and the significance of ones career is judged on how many you win and in some cases what you do after your first one.  But during the course of the season they are 1 event and their significance in points isn’t really that much more than other events.

the hall of fame vote for baseball is an interesting one. The concept of the writers voting back when there were few and they travelled everywhere with the teams and knew the players compared to today where there’s hundreds and many rarely spend time with teams and their criteria is probably 100x more subjective than the pga players going for player of the year. The baseball hall of fame voting need to change imo 

[revkev]

I wasn’t trying to say fans value more than players, rather we put too much emphasis on them when looking at certain aspects of the game due to the way they are presented. When it comes to accomplishments they are the goal of every golfer and the significance of ones career is judged on how many you win and in some cases what you do after your first one.  But during the course of the season they are 1 event and their significance in points isn’t really that much more than other events.
the hall of fame vote for baseball is an interesting one. The concept of the writers voting back when there were few and they travelled everywhere with the teams and knew the players compared to today where there’s hundreds and many rarely spend time with teams and their criteria is probably 100x more subjective than the pga players going for player of the year. The baseball hall of fame voting need to change imo 

But it’s transparent - baseball Hall of Fame voting that is. Wouldn’t you love to know what guys on tour think in regards to who the best player was and why.

I would, I think it would only benefit the game if we did.

Good discussion BTW - thanks


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[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, revkev said:

 

But it’s transparent - baseball Hall of Fame voting that is. Wouldn’t you love to know what guys on tour think in regards to who the best player was and why.

I would, I think it would only benefit the game if we did.

Good discussion BTW - thanks


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Transparent yes but not always sensible. I honestly don’t care who voted for who especially yearly honors. 

 

 

[FrogginBullfish]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that individual votes be made public, just that the total votes cast to which players should be.

Whether you care or not, there are some who would find just how many votes Rory won by quite interesting. Right now, speculation amongst media and fans is that it was a really tight race between him and Koepka. Releasing the total figures would confirm, or deny, those suspicions for the people who do care to know. Plus it might even speak to the argument you've been making that we place too much emphasis on majors. Or of course it could indicate that it might just be a bit of a popularity contest amongst the contenders if further voting demographic stats are released.

Transparent yes but not always sensible. I honestly don’t care who voted for who especially yearly honors. 
 
 

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[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, FrogginBullfish said:

I don't think anyone is suggesting that individual votes be made public, just that the total votes cast to which players should be.

Whether you care or not, there are some who would find just how many votes Rory won by quite interesting. Right now, speculation amongst media and fans is that it was a really tight race between him and Koepka. Releasing the total figures would confirm, or deny, those suspicions for the people who do care to know. Plus it might even speak to the argument you've been making that we place too much emphasis on majors. Or of course it could indicate that it might just be a bit of a popularity contest amongst the contenders if further voting demographic stats are released.

 

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If individual votes weren’t made public how would one determine if there was a popularity contest or not, if majors were favored less or not, or any subjective criteria the tour players used.

just like most awards in sports or hall of fame there’s not much of any objective criteria used to select a winner. Each person votes based on whatever criteria they want.

at the end of the day it doesn’t matter who won, why they won or if they were the right or wrong choice. Life goes on for fans, media and players.  

[revkev]

Transparent yes but not always sensible. I honestly don’t care who voted for who especially yearly honors. 
 
 

I don’t either - I’d simply want to know why - why did you vote the way you did.

That would be interesting to me.


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[FrogginBullfish]

They wouldn't have to release individual statistics, but release voting demographics based on region (country/continent) and age group could provide some basis for analysing how the players are voting for Player of the Year.

If individual votes weren’t made public how would one determine if there was a popularity contest or not, if majors were favored less or not, or any subjective criteria the tour players used.
just like most awards in sports or hall of fame there’s not much of any objective criteria used to select a winner. Each person votes based on whatever criteria they want.
at the end of the day it doesn’t matter who won, why they won or if they were the right or wrong choice. Life goes on for fans, media and players.  

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[Kenny B]

Let's look at it a little differently.  We all know what Rory and Brooks accomplished this year..

• each with 3 wins
• Rory with a Players and the Tour Championship, but not really in contention in any major and a missed cut at the Open Championship in his home country
• Brooks with top 5 in all four majors including a win at the PGA, a WGC, and he wins the money title.

Which season would the rank and file Tour Player rather have?  If they said Rory's season, they're lying.

[RickyBobby_PR]

6 hours ago, FrogginBullfish said:

They wouldn't have to release individual statistics, but release voting demographics based on region (country/continent) and age group could provide some basis for analysing how the players are voting for Player of the Year.

 

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So are you saying that the euros likely voted for Rory and Americans voted for Brooks? 

People are putting way to much time and effort into trying to figure out why players voted a certain way for an award given to another player. It doesn’t matter if it’s 1, 10, 100 vote separation the players made their choice and imo Rory has the stats that back up the pick and Brooks had a good year. Other than a major which according to the PGA is equal to the Players and Brooks had one win that was worth 50 pts more than Rory’s wins. Rory has a better top 10 performance percentage than Brooks and better overall stats. We can sit here all day and nit pick over who, why, what were the players thinking.

unless there was a form that had some sort of ranking the players use to show why they voted knowing that tiger voted to brooks or that JT voted for rory we will never know exactly why they voted the way they did.

 

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

5 hours ago, Kenny B said:

Let's look at it a little differently.  We all know what Rory and Brooks accomplished this year..

• each with 3 wins
• Rory with a Players and the Tour Championship, but not really in contention in any major and a missed cut at the Open Championship in his home country
• Brooks with top 5 in all four majors including a win at the PGA, a WGC, and he wins the money title.

Which season would the rank and file Tour Player rather have?  If they said Rory's season, they're lying.

The rank and file would take Tigers year, Shane Lowery’s year and many others winners in tour. So not sure using that is a good justification plus the rank and file are a larger majority than the stars/superstars and their votes count too.

[ED13]

For me this year was a toss up between Rory and Brooks.  I look at it as what meant more to the voters.

Wins may have canceled each other out with a major for Brooks and an extra win and wins in the next two most important tournaments of the year for Rory.  Consistency in performance is lauded in all sports, especially among athletes.  This may have been the deciding factor for the majority of voters.  Rory’s consistency in top tens and his stroke average for the year probably pushed him over the finish line for the win this year.

[FrogginBullfish]

No, I'm not. I'm saying it could be possible that that be the case if voting demographics were released for people to analyze. The statistics would need to be analyzed over a lengthy period of time for any tangible trends to be determined.

No one is arguing that this isn't the players' decision. We all understand that and are fine with that. All we're saying is that we'd be interested in seeing how they've come to decide who is deserving of Player of the Year.

If you don't care, which you clearly don't, that's completely fine, but others do care to know these things because they find it interesting. Knowing this stuff isn't removing the players' right to vote how they choose when it comes to Player of the Year. It's just providing data to those who would find it interesting and who may want to dig deeper to see if there are any potential trends amongst the voters, i.e the players.

So are you saying that the euros likely voted for Rory and Americans voted for Brooks? 
People are putting way to much time and effort into trying to figure out why players voted a certain way for an award given to another player. It doesn’t matter if it’s 1, 10, 100 vote separation the players made their choice and imo Rory has the stats that back up the pick and Brooks had a good year. Other than a major which according to the PGA is equal to the Players and Brooks had one win that was worth 50 pts more than Rory’s wins. Rory has a better top 10 performance percentage than Brooks and better overall stats. We can sit here all day and nit pick over who, why, what were the players thinking.
unless there was a form that had some sort of ranking the players use to show why they voted knowing that tiger voted to brooks or that JT voted for rory we will never know exactly why they voted the way they did.
 
 

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[sixcat]

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[NitaiZipp]

On 9/13/2019 at 11:59 PM, Kenny B said:

Let's look at it a little differently.  We all know what Rory and Brooks accomplished this year..

• each with 3 wins
• Rory with a Players and the Tour Championship, but not really in contention in any major and a missed cut at the Open Championship in his home country
• Brooks with top 5 in all four majors including a win at the PGA, a WGC, and he wins the money title.

Which season would the rank and file Tour Player rather have?  If they said Rory's season, they're lying.

This is exactly right in my opinion; I like Rory as a player, but simply by the numbers Brooks is the better player. I don't know if PGA Tour guys just don't like him or something of the sorts, but he had in my opinion, the best season out of anyone on Tour.

[RickyBobby_PR]

Just now, NitaiZipp said:

This is exactly right in my opinion; I like Rory as a player, but simply by the numbers Brooks is the better player. I don't know if PGA Tour guys just don't like him or something of the sorts, but he had in my opinion, the best season out of anyone on Tour.

Rory’s stroke gains stats and top 10 percentage disagree 

[ncwoz]

8 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Rory’s stroke gains stats and top 10 percentage disagree 

To be fair, the point was that Brooks played better in the big ones. Strokes gained and top 10 percentage gets a little skewed when you start throwing in the Craig's Cruiser's mini golf cup

Edited September 17, 2019 by ncwoz
Typo

[revkev]

To be fair, the point was that Brooks played better in the big ones. Strokes gained and top 10 percentage gets a little skewed when you start throwing in the Craig's Cruiser's mini golf cup

I figured I’d come back here and stir the pot. I was listening to Fred Couples on Sirius radio and he fully agreed with the opinion above. IHO Rory’s numbers cam e on easier courses against less competitive fields.

In fact he said, “I normally prefer to sit on the fence but there’s no doubt in my mind that Brook’s had the better season and should have been voted player of the year.”

Put me on the list of guys who would like to know what criteria the players used for their vote. I don’t need to know who voted how just the whys. It would be interesting to see what tournaments the players value or even if they said, “Tie goes to the guy I like better.”


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[bens197]

I figured I’d come back here and stir the pot. I was listening to Fred Couples on Sirius radio and he fully agreed with the opinion above. IHO Rory’s numbers cam e on easier courses against less competitive fields.

In fact he said, “I normally prefer to sit on the fence but there’s no doubt in my mind that Brook’s had the better season and should have been voted player of the year.”

Put me on the list of guys who would like to know what criteria the players used for their vote. I don’t need to know who voted how just the whys. It would be interesting to see what tournaments the players value or even if they said, “Tie goes to the guy I like better.”


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I love the irony of this. Rory literally made a stink two days ago about how easy European Tour courses are set for events.

[RickyBobby_PR]

5 minutes ago, bens197 said:

 

I love the irony of this. Rory literally made a stink two days ago about how easy European Tour courses are set for events.

 

He wasnt making a stink about them, he was saying that they need to make them harder to help improve the product the euro tour puts out. He’s trying to help the tour.

[bens197]

He wasnt making a stink about them, he was saying that they need to make them harder to help improve the product the euro tour puts out. He’s trying to help the tour.

In his words: “I’m sort of honestly sick of coming back over to the European Tour and shooting 15 under par and finishing 30th. I don’t think the courses are set up hard enough. There’s no penalties for bad shots. It’s tough when you come back when it’s like that. I don’t feel like good golf is regarded as well as it could be.

[RickyBobby_PR]

45 minutes ago, bens197 said:

 

 

In his words: “I’m sort of honestly sick of coming back over to the European Tour and shooting 15 under par and finishing 30th. I don’t think the courses are set up hard enough. There’s no penalties for bad shots. It’s tough when you come back when it’s like that. I don’t feel like good golf is regarded as well as it could be.
 

 

 

“I understand voicing my concerns about golf course setups in Europe to the media, at a pro am event on benign links courses wasn’t the right place to do it, or, the right people to talk to about it,” he wrote.

“I was venting yesterday but I can assure you it came from the right place.

“Strategy, course management and shot making are important aspects of tournament golf that are being slowly taken out of the game at the top level, not just in Europe but worldwide. I would personally like to see tougher set ups in Europe because it will produce better, more complete young players in the future and that can only be a good thing for the game and our Ryder Cup chances going forward.

[Kenny B]

I'm all for tougher course setups; seems like players need to shoot -20+ to have a chance anymore.  However, it seems to me that a tougher setup flies in the face of the Tour's slow play initiative.

[RickyBobby_PR]

4 hours ago, Kenny B said:

I'm all for tougher course setups; seems like players need to shoot -20+ to have a chance anymore.  However, it seems to me that a tougher setup flies in the face of the Tour's slow play initiative.

The euro tour does a much better job at pace of play than the pga tour. 

I don’t think tougher courses will have any negative affect on pace of play. The pga tour has a mix of low and not so low scoring events. Most weeks if you shoot -15 you are in contention for the win and not finishing 30th. Granted pro am event like Dunhill is going to be setup easy to help the ams.

[Kenny B]

4 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The euro tour does a much better job at pace of play than the pga tour. 

I don’t think tougher courses will have any negative affect on pace of play. The pga tour has a mix of low and not so low scoring events. Most weeks if you shoot -15 you are in contention for the win and not finishing 30th. Granted pro am event like Dunhill is going to be setup easy to help the ams.

The euro tour does a much better job, but they are still too slow.

https://golfweek.com/2019/06/02/euro-perspective-pace-of-play-continues-to-plague-european-tour-despite-a-looming-threat-of-losing-viewers-hillside-england/

I think tougher courses will certainly have a negative effect on pace of play.  Longer to assess the lie, longer decision time on what club to hit and what shot to try if they narrow fairways and make rough more penal.  Most of the problem is green-related; missing greens and difficult putts are where time is lost.  Making the course harder at the greens will slow pace of play.

https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/european-tour-pace-of-play-results/

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

14 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

The euro tour does a much better job, but they are still too slow.

https://golfweek.com/2019/06/02/euro-perspective-pace-of-play-continues-to-plague-european-tour-despite-a-looming-threat-of-losing-viewers-hillside-england/

I think tougher courses will certainly have a negative effect on pace of play.  Longer to assess the lie, longer decision time on what club to hit and what shot to try if they narrow fairways and make rough more penal.  Most of the problem is green-related; missing greens and difficult putts are where time is lost.  Making the course harder at the greens will slow pace of play.

https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/european-tour-pace-of-play-results/

 

I think it’s more of a player issue than course setup. Fast players will play fast and slow players are going to be slow

[Kenny B]

4 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

I think it’s more of a player issue than course setup. Fast players will play fast and slow players are going to be slow

And fast players and slow players will play a little slower when course conditions are tougher.  Throw in some weather, and ...

[RickyBobby_PR]

40 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

And fast players and slow players will play a little slower when course conditions are tougher.  Throw in some weather, and ...

Do you think Brooks, Rory, DJ, Snedeker play significantly slower during the US Open or The Open outside of the players in their group or ahead of them affecting the pace of play?