The Blades/CavityBack Debate

[Zlim]

Where do you stand on iron set choices.

 

I'm thinking about buying a new set and my thoughts are on the fence with which to get, the cavity back that I'm thinking about are very close to blades.

 

So what do you think?

[Richie3Jack]

Today's blades are very close to CB's in terms of playability if you look at the Maltby Playability rankings.

 

For the most part, I grew up on playing blades an occasionally would hit some CB's. I was one of the better juniors in NY growing up and hit the ball well in High School. In college I eventually got turned onto CB's because my coach and teammates kept saying I needed to 'play for my misses' and my swing collapsed at the same time.

 

I've read quite a bit about different types of golf instruction and took up reading Michael Lavery's 'Whole Brain Power' book. I'm convinced that a big reason why handicaps haven't gone down is because the use of blades is becoming less and less prevalent. I believe that using blades...at least for practice....helps improve motor skill and forces the golfer to be more precise with their swing. I also think you'll be more *accurate* in general using blades, even on misses.

 

I think in tournament time, use what you feel will give you the best score. But in practice time, even playing a round of golf, get your hands on some blades because that's really what practice is about, working to make yourself better.

 

 

 

 

 

3JACK

[jamo]

I play MP 57s so they are CBs but barely. I wouldn't be against switching to blades sometime in the future.

[MmmmmmBuddy]

Where do you stand on iron set choices.

 

I'm thinking about buying a new set and my thoughts are on the fence with which to get, the cavity back that I'm thinking about are very close to blades.

 

So what do you think?

I think that you have to play whatever is going to help you hit the best possible shots. That can mean a more forgiving club, or a harder to hit club. I know that for me, if I am looking down at mt old MP14's, I know that I can hit the shots on days when the stars are aligned. on the flip side, on those days when I have had a crappy day at work, and the dog wont stop barking at me, I want something a bit easier on my swing.

The bottom line is, YOU have to pull the club and hit the shot, not me. Play what you want.

[Oldplayer]

This is an age old topic on golf forums and there is no simple answer. I am a forged blade lover and have played many different brands but in the end they don't vary that much. However there are many types of cb's from "player" cb's that set up and play like blades right through to super GI. I am of the opinion that blades are a better option for the good player but you have to be prepared to put the range time into your swing. If you stray too much from the sweet spot you will be punished. It is true that modern blades have been made more forgiving but they are still blades. If you are a casual player who dosen't practice, or is not particularly motivated to improve I would recommend to stay away from blades. But I wouldn't go into GI irons necessarily. Irons with oversized heads and massive offset are not good for most players I believe. I also am not a fan at all of very thick toplines and wide soles. There are plenty of middle of the road cb's which provide forgivness but at the same time give good feedback as to the accuracy of the strike which is essential if you wish to improve ballstiking.

In the end it is personal choice but I would never disuade any player from at least experimenting with blades if they wish to try. As has been mentioned using them in practice can be beneficial. There can be a lot of snobbery and egotism with regards to a players choice to use blades. I prefer them in large part because of the asthetics. I love the clean sharp lines at set-up with the thin topline; and the feel of a sweetly struck shot with a forged muscleback is superior I believe.

Probably the best of both worlds is the combo set. Accuracy in the scoring irons and a litle forgivness in the long irons is the best way to go.

[Matt Saternus]

I have very old, very pure blades, I have serious GI cavity backs, and I have some "game enhancement" cavity backs. My big thought for this year is picking up a set of true SGI shovels, so that tells you where my train of thought is headed. As much as I like the look of blades and as much as I like practicing with them, on the course I just want to hit it close and I'll take all the help I can get in doing that.

[Addicted2Golf]

Sorry to on a rant here but...

 

It really depends on how good of an ball striker you are. I don't like it when golf magazines generalize about handicaps when it comes to whether someone can play blades or not. Yes, most single digits are good ball strikers so it holds up most of the time. But, someone can just have a really good short game and yet have no business playing blades.

 

With that said, I think the vast majority of players and certainly amateurs should be gaming cavity backs. A significant % of the pros have gone that direction so why should we be any different?

[NRJyzr]

Where do you stand on iron set choices.

 

I'm thinking about buying a new set and my thoughts are on the fence with which to get, the cavity back that I'm thinking about are very close to blades.

 

So what do you think?

 

I'm in the blade camp. I've just not found any CB that actually forgives misses as much as the marketing tells you. When you hit two largely identical toe hits with a Golden Ram and a CB iron of the same loft, and they finish within 3 feet of each other, it doesn't shed a lot of positive light on the "forgiveness" mantra.

 

I'm of the opinion that it's as much mental as anything, when applied to the actual game of golf. If you think you can't hit it, you won't be able to. And that's the attitude a lot of folks have with blades.

 

Obviously very much an IMHO post.

[MmmmmmBuddy]

I'm in the blade camp. I've just not found any CB that actually forgives misses as much as the marketing tells you. When you hit two largely identical toe hits with a Golden Ram and a CB iron of the same loft, and they finish within 3 feet of each other, it doesn't shed a lot of positive light on the "forgiveness" mantra.

 

I'm of the opinion that it's as much mental as anything, when applied to the actual game of golf. If you think you can't hit it, you won't be able to. And that's the attitude a lot of folks have with blades.

 

Obviously very much an IMHO post.

I can understand what you are saying, but I have to disagree. I have owned several sets of blade irons, one as recently as 6 months ago (mizzy MP14's in absolutely pristine condition), and I can say, without a doubt, that CB's offer a substantial amount of forgiveness on off center hits. My misses with Blades usually come up well short of the intended distance, while with my current irons, I have don't seem to have that problem. To each his own though....

[Garaski]

Depends on what you want to do. If you're at the stage where you shape / want to shape shots, blades ( higher CG, almost no offset, less bounce )should be your choice. If you want shots that go mostly straight with good distance cavity backed heads are the way to go.

[Richie3Jack]

There was a study awhile ago showing that blades are actually more *accurate* than CB's. The difference seemed to be that you will hit CB's further on mis-hits, but you will also have a much wider dispersion. All that being said, I don't think the study was all that scientific.

 

I think if you really want to improve and stay sharp, I would highly recommend blades AT THE VERY LEAST for practice and playing some casual rounds with. I grew up mostly playing blades, but also played some CB's. Had a great swing and was a very good ballstriker in HS. When I got into college I started playing more CB's and my swing and ballstriking took a noticeable dip. Now I'm back to playing blades and my swing and ballstriking has improved. I think of all the people I grew up playing golf with that were the best of ballstrikers, some of them would be great ballstrikers on the PGA Tour (their putting and short game is a different story) and all of them used blades and grew up playing blades.

 

I just think for most golfers trying to improve they lose their ability to sharpen the precision with their swing once they go to CB irons.

 

 

 

 

3JACK

[Matt Saternus]

Sorry to on a rant here but...

 

It really depends on how good of an ball striker you are. I don't like it when golf magazines generalize about handicaps when it comes to whether someone can play blades or not. Yes, most single digits are good ball strikers so it holds up most of the time. But, someone can just have a really good short game and yet have no business playing blades.

 

With that said, I think the vast majority of players and certainly amateurs should be gaming cavity backs. A significant % of the pros have gone that direction so why should we be any different?

 

This is a good point. My dad is a 30+ handicap because he can't chip or putt, but hits the ball pretty decently and could stand to play a "player's" iron.

[Golfware]

Oh man. Get a set of Scratch AR1's, and you'll be in heaven!! Super soft feel. Great feedback and the just enough forgiveness to help. Setting them down, with the thin topline and minimal offset, they just look so sweet.

[JohnBarry]

Let's speak about the most forgiving Forged Irons. I know some companies claim to make them, but I would love to hear from the actual players!

[Moecat]

Let's speak about the most forgiving Forged Irons. I know some companies claim to make them, but I would love to hear from the actual players!

 

Currently, you probably wouldn't go wrong with either the Mizuno MX-200, MX-300 or Titleist AP-2.

[Golfware]

Let's speak about the most forgiving Forged Irons. I know some companies claim to make them, but I would love to hear from the actual players!

 

Interesting that you say that, because they shaft has as much to do with forgiveness as the clubhead, IMHGO. For the most forgiving Forged irons, HANDS down they'll be the Callaway Diablo Forged, the Scratch EZ1's and the MX200's (previous version MX20's or MX25's). Also, if you can get a set of Nike Pro Combo OS's, they are VERY forgiving too.

 

I've had the chance to hit/play all of those, and they are very forgiving.

[JohnBarry]

I agree, being properly fitted is always the first step to buying some clubs, just wanted to hear about some ones in the market, and players experiences with them.

[Tony Covey MGS]

My experience trying various clubs over the years has convinced me that this is not a simple question, and it certainly has no simple answer. At the risk of providing no useful information whatsoever, I would say simply that it depends on the blade, and it depends on the cavity back.

 

Last spring I started working with a training club (Martin Chuck's Tour Striker), without getting into the benefits of that particular tool, sufficed to say it presented a completely different look than my Callaway X-20 Tour irons (extremely forgiving, but also larger than most "tour" irons). After a month plus of using the Tour Striker, my irons began to look too big, bulky, bulbous, etc. (especially along the topline) so I switched to a transitional blade. I haven't looked back.

 

With cavity backs the "forgiveness" comes from things like offset (a little bit more time to square the clubface), and extreme perimeter weighting. Obviously there isn't any magic involved. Put the biggest croquet mallet of a forgiving cavity back in my hands and I'll still slice, and I'll still hook. I'd also be willing to be that my deviation from center (accuracy if you will) isn't going to differ much between a blade and a cavity back (some might suggest I'd be more accurate with the blades). Where I really notice the difference between blades and cavity backs (especially extreme models like the HiBore, or even Callaway's X-20s) is on distance lost on balls struck higher on the face. Toe shots are toe shots, heal shots are heal shots, but hit a blade high on the face and it excessively penal (comparatively speaking).

 

That said, I like the fact that I know not only that I missed the sweet spot, but also exactly how I missed it. The feedback is better in general, and oh man...nothing compares to a perfectly struck ball of the face of a forged blade.

[JohnBarry]

Very nice answer!

[Golfware]

My experience trying various clubs over the years has convinced me that this is not a simple question, and it certainly has no simple answer. At the risk of providing no useful information whatsoever, I would say simply that it depends on the blade, and it depends on the cavity back.

 

Last spring I started working with a training club (Martin Chuck's Tour Striker), without getting into the benefits of that particular tool, sufficed to say it presented a completely different look than my Callaway X-20 Tour irons (extremely forgiving, but also larger than most "tour" irons). After a month plus of using the Tour Striker, my irons began to look too big, bulky, bulbous, etc. (especially along the topline) so I switched to a transitional blade. I haven't looked back.

 

With cavity backs the "forgiveness" comes from things like offset (a little bit more time to square the clubface), and extreme perimeter weighting. Obviously there isn't any magic involved. Put the biggest croquet mallet of a forgiving cavity back in my hands and I'll still slice, and I'll still hook. I'd also be willing to be that my deviation from center (accuracy if you will) isn't going to differ much between a blade and a cavity back (some might suggest I'd be more accurate with the blades). Where I really notice the difference between blades and cavity backs (especially extreme models like the HiBore, or even Callaway's X-20s) is on distance lost on balls struck higher on the face. Toe shots are toe shots, heal shots are heal shots, but hit a blade high on the face and it excessively penal (comparatively speaking).

 

That said, I like the fact that I know not only that I missed the sweet spot, but also exactly how I missed it. The feedback is better in general, and oh man...nothing compares to a perfectly struck ball of the face of a forged blade.

 

Agree with you 100%. Especially on the last line. Serious. Wow. Nothing feels like a well struck shot with a forged iron. Just so pure.

[NRJyzr]

There was a study awhile ago showing that blades are actually more *accurate* than CB's. The difference seemed to be that you will hit CB's further on mis-hits, but you will also have a much wider dispersion. All that being said, I don't think the study was all that scientific.

 

I think if you really want to improve and stay sharp, I would highly recommend blades AT THE VERY LEAST for practice and playing some casual rounds with. I grew up mostly playing blades, but also played some CB's. Had a great swing and was a very good ballstriker in HS. When I got into college I started playing more CB's and my swing and ballstriking took a noticeable dip. Now I'm back to playing blades and my swing and ballstriking has improved. I think of all the people I grew up playing golf with that were the best of ballstrikers, some of them would be great ballstrikers on the PGA Tour (their putting and short game is a different story) and all of them used blades and grew up playing blades.

 

I just think for most golfers trying to improve they lose their ability to sharpen the precision with their swing once they go to CB irons.

 

 

 

 

3JACK

 

Are you referring to the Terry Koehler post on his blog?

 

Robot testing, which is that to which Mr Koehler was speaking, is fairly scientific. I'm guessing they didn't weigh golfballs or any such, but the dispersion differences on center hits were not insignificant.

[Jeeves]

I don't think there are enough step down sets... and its a pain to create your own.

[krevo]

My first set of golf clubs were handmedown Titleist DCI blades. (first round of golf I played was March 2008) These were a very limited run of DCIs with a small clubhead, thin topline and minimal to no offset. They did have a cavity, however very small. More of a "players iron"

 

I started out the game with them and transitioned to the 755s about a year and a half later. I currently play to about a 18 but yesterday without using a driver (the bane of my golf bag), I put up a 13 over. Neither of my clubs were "blades" but they had a smaller head, smaller cavity, and would be considered Players irons, which I have decided is the best of both worlds.

 

My thoughts on the CB/Blade debate goes like this:

 

- Blades are not much more difficult to hit if you have built a swing based on a downward striking of the ball. (Which I learned to do from the get go) Your mishits are often times really bad shots, however, after grinding for the past 2 years I've come to realize that I would never trade my few mishits for the lack of feel I would get if I was playing an oversized Ping or Callaway GI iron. Not to mention, the smaller sweetspot and having to hit the ball pure to produce a good shot has honed my ability.

 

- Game Improvement CBs are often times the reason why players have a hard time building a good ball striking swing. They have fat soles, lack feel, and have much more offset that don't allow it in many cases.

 

An example - I have a set of Taylormade RAC OS irons that I keep for when friends come in town. Both my sets have DG S300 shafts. I hit my 755 7 iron about 170 yards consistently. With the same swing on my RAC OS I have a harder time drawing the ball and I can't get the 7 iron past 155 yards. I find that the club seems to yield me the same distance whether I try to strike the ball or just take a nice easy swing. I also generate considerably less spin with the RAC OS on shots to the green.

 

 

If I could recommend one thing to any player, it would be to play a "players iron" A small cavity helps you, but the consistent control you get from your irons will help you develop a better golf swing. I think traditional no cavity blades should only be used by those who have developed a very consistent ball strikers swing.

[krevo]

To follow up my post -

 

I'm not insinuating that players who use GI irons can't be great golfers and shoot low scores. I'm basically saying that distance control, spin, and the ability to work the ball (fade/draw/knockdown) are usually important aspects of mid to low cappers game. And I'm saying that most of the run of the mill GI to Super GI irons limit your ability to improve on the three aspects of ball striking listed above.

[JohnBarry]

I want to improve in those areas, maybe my irons are holding me back some.

[NGage]

I haven't read the thread....but when you guys are done, can we discuss the whole "forged vs. cast" debate too?

[krevo]

I want to improve in those areas, maybe my irons are holding me back some.

 

John, what do you play currently?

[krevo]

I haven't read the thread....but when you guys are done, can we discuss the whole "forged vs. cast" debate too?

 

 

lol

 

lets hope not.

[JohnBarry]

John, what do you play currently?

 

08 Taylor Made R7s

[krevo]

08 Taylor Made R7s

 

 

I wouldn't call those Super GIs by any standard. Try some players irons if you get a chance.