Why are we losing long term avid players ?

[HardcoreLooper]

11 hours ago, Tsmithjr9 said:

Personally I've seen two major reasons- time and personal enjoyment. People don't seem to have time for it simply, even 9 holes. And that feeds into the other. Take someone who was a single digit handicap. As they play less and less odds are scores will go up. They're not playing like that know their abilities allow, never mind that they went from 3 rounds a week to 1 and no practice time. Their goals and reasons haven't changed.

This is something I am going through now too. My first child will be born any day now cbd I've spent most of the summer preparing for it. I need to refocus and just enjoy getting to play golf. It's a very fun priviledge still, and just trust that my game will bounce back as time frees up.

Take Dead Aim
 

Congratulations and good luck!  You'll be busy for a while, but the game will be waiting for you when you have time again.  Just get a club into the little one's hands as soon as you can.  Golf with your kids is the best. 

[Big money]

Well In all sincerity and honesty.The elitism is why I’m actually playing the game.I enjoy playing with and associating with like minded professionals like myself.If your into hardcore get down and dirty hobbies.Than golf won’t be a great fit for you.Why I love Our club.It is exclusive and it is how we like it.Best to research a club that lets you fit in.That is what is great about golf

Edited September 27, 2019 by Big money

[RickyBobby_PR]

23 hours ago, silver & black said:

I feel like I need to follow up with a disclaimer. I rarely ever experience arrogant, stuffy people on the golf course.... even on very nice courses that cost more than I should spend. I usually make new friends and have a very enjoyable time.

My little dig was directed at the Golf course/club house employees/higher ups/ whatever term fits. The muni I mentioned was a very arrogant, pompous atmosphere.... unless you were a prominent business person, Massillon Tiger football coach, council person or just very affluent, they just didn't give two s**ts about you.... and gave you a hard time about everything. That's no way to run a successful muni course and expect to stay in business. 

Things may have changed, because I've heard that there has been a changing of the guard, so to speak. I hope so. It's a very nice course that should be enjoyed by everyone that pays taxes.... not just the few that thought they could pull a fast one. This course has been around since 1995.... I haven't played it since at least 2005. I probably should give it another shot.

The staff is few and far between in the number of arrogant or elitist sentiment from what I have seen in/around dc area, upstate ny and several others states I’ve played in. At some places where you would expect it I found the exact opposite.

[HardcoreLooper]

4 hours ago, Twofer said:

If your into hardcore

Ahem...  Please look about an inch to the left and an inch up.

[silver & black]

4 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The staff is few and far between in the number of arrogant or elitist sentiment from what I have seen in/around dc area, upstate ny and several others states I’ve played in. At some places where you would expect it I found the exact opposite.

I understand. You have to understand the area I live in. Football is king in my town. We have a tradition that is 100+ years old in high school football. The "citizens" that are involved with... prolific in said tradition, are held in the highest esteem in my city. Those of us that think otherwise.... not so much. The golf course reflects this.

Edited September 27, 2019 by silver & black
spelling

[russtopherb]

Well In all sincerity and honesty.The elitism is why I’m actually playing the game.I enjoy playing with and associating with like minded professionals like myself.If your into hardcore get down and dirty hobbies.Than golf won’t be a great fit for you.Why I love Our club.It is exclusive and it is how we like it.Best to research a club that lets you fit in.That is what is great about golf

I know. I hate the rift raft too.

I prefer my partners to be wearing pressed pants as we listen to Black Flag and Earth Crisis in the lot while we enjoy a well-earned Cuban cigar. Then we can enjoy hardcore AND golf. At the same time!!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tony@CIC]

I understand. You have to understand the area I live in. Football is king in my town. We have a tradition that is 100+ years old in high school football. The "citizens" that are involved with... prolific in said tradition, are held in the highest esteem in my city. Those of us that think otherwise.... not so much. The golf course reflects this.

Sounds like you need to find another town to play golf in. There are so many great public/muni courses in Ohio that are looking for and welcoming new golfers.


Sent from my iPad using MyGolfSpy

[silver & black]

12 minutes ago, russtopherb said:

 

I know. I hate the rift raft too.

I prefer my partners to be wearing pressed pants as we listen to Black Flag and Earth Crisis in the lot while we enjoy a well-earned Cuban cigar. Then we can enjoy hardcore AND golf. At the same time!!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

So.... both of you are elitists?

[silver & black]

5 minutes ago, tony@CIC said:

Sounds like you need to find another town to play golf in. There are so many great public/muni courses in Ohio that are looking for and welcoming new golfers.


Sent from my iPad using MyGolfSpy

I don't play golf in my own town.... on my own muni that I pay taxes for. I play elsewhere.

[russtopherb]

So.... both of you are elitists?

Only when it comes to my hardcore. Death to false metal!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RickyBobby_PR]

37 minutes ago, silver & black said:

I understand. You have to understand the area I live in. Football is king in my town. We have a tradition that is 100+ years old in high school football. The "citizens" that are involved with... prolific in said tradition, are held in the highest esteem in my city. Those of us that think otherwise.... not so much. The golf course reflects this.

I live in dc area where money is flowing everywhere and most courses are high end and yet staff and patrons aren’t stuffy. I’ve also played in Dallas and football is pretty big there and didn’t run into any elitism even at a top private club. Some people are just dweebs and imo they are few and far between.

[russtopherb]

4 minutes ago, Edveed said:

This is obvious you’re trolling.Go troll somewhere else 

Not at all. I only listen to TRUE hardcore when I golf. Converge, Coalesce, Boysetsfire... none of that Brokencyde junk when I'm in charge of the bluetooth speaker.

[silver & black]

20 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

I live in dc area where money is flowing everywhere and most courses are high end and yet staff and patrons aren’t stuffy. I’ve also played in Dallas and football is pretty big there and didn’t run into any elitism even at a top private club. Some people are just dweebs and imo they are few and far between.

I know. You have to understand the importence of foot ball where I live. It's like life and death here. Look up Massillon Tigers football... there was even a movie made about us...lol.

[chisag]

9 hours ago, Twofer said:

Well In all sincerity and honesty.The elitism is why I’m actually playing the game.I enjoy playing with and associating with like minded professionals like myself.If your into hardcore get down and dirty hobbies.Than golf won’t be a great fit for you.Why I love Our club.It is exclusive and it is how we like it.Best to research a club that lets you fit in.That is what is great about golf

 

... My 28yr old son works as a bartender at one of the more elite CC's in Chicago. He say about 50% of the members are arrogant, elitist a$$holes, 25% are decent enough people and the other 25% are really good guys. Some treat him like a friend and some like hired help. He will serve drinks for hours and get no tip at all or a very small tip. The bigger tippers usually thank him for taking good care of them while the arrogant ones never thank him for anything. Fwiw, he is a very outgoing friendly kid that also knows when to keep his mouth shut and when to engage people.  One of his keys to a personality is those that say "I left my wallet in my car" or those that say "I left my wallet in my Benz/Bimmer/Porsche/Rover". It has been very enlightening for him.

[HardcoreLooper]

3 hours ago, Edveed said:

This is obvious you’re trolling.Go troll somewhere else 

I don't think so.  I don't want to speak for @russtopherb, but I'm taking issue with a type of music that I like being viewed as a negative.  The idea that golfers are or are not any certain thing is a serious problem for the game.  Thank goodness plenty of people ignore this, but plenty of others do not.  

One of my favorite guys to play with at one local muni was a roadie for metal bands for years.  His arms are covered with tats, and he's half-deaf from the noise.  He's one of the nicest guys you'd ever meet, he's absolutely in love with the game, and I'd play with him any day of the week.  I sell consulting for a software company; where else would I have met this guy.  And I have plenty of other golf buddies with whom I have nothing in common.  Except golf.  I'd do anything for them.

 

3 hours ago, silver & black said:

I know. You have to understand the importence of foot ball where I live. It's like life and death here. Look up Massillon Tigers football... there was even a movie made about us...lol.

Yeah, I've heard about HS football in Massillon.  The thing is... if a business doesn't treat everyone that walks through its doors as though they are the most important person in the world, they're going to have trouble staying in business when things get tough.  Keep voting with your dollars.

 

[russtopherb]

8 hours ago, HardcoreLooper said:

I don't think so.  I don't want to speak for @russtopherb, but I'm taking issue with a type of music that I like being viewed as a negative.  The idea that golfers are or are not any certain thing is a serious problem for the game.  Thank goodness plenty of people ignore this, but plenty of others do not.  

One of my favorite guys to play with at one local muni was a roadie for metal bands for years.  His arms are covered with tats, and he's half-deaf from the noise.  He's one of the nicest guys you'd ever meet, he's absolutely in love with the game, and I'd play with him any day of the week.  I sell consulting for a software company; where else would I have met this guy.  And I have plenty of other golf buddies with whom I have nothing in common.  Except golf.  I'd do anything for them

I'm taking issue with more than that here, but yes - I was dead serious. Some of my favorite playing partners are guys I played in bands with for years. My brother and his brother-in-law toured the east coast in the last 90's in a hardcore band and are both avid golfers. When I pulled up to the range the other day, I was blasting the Dead Kennedys. I'm also the marketing manager for an international company so let's be real - no place for judging books by the cover here. 

I personally find it a bit ironic that the OP has started multiple threads all about growing the game and fearing losing players... then comes back in with a post about keeping certain types of people out of the game and away from his club. Was my post a bit tongue in cheek? Certainly. However, I'd be mortified of the thought of this being the first thread a new poster may stumble upon after signing up and seeing members openly talking about not wanting to play with people who may look exactly like them. MGS is great about allowing us to civilly express our opinions, however I find it more than curious that someone would start a thread about not losing avid players then come back the next page and point out how they wanted to personally stay away from certain types of avid players and keep them away from "their" game.

[RickyBobby_PR]

13 hours ago, Edveed said:

This is obvious you’re trolling.Go troll somewhere else 

If you think @russtopherb is trolling you obviously don’t spend enough time around here to know who he is. Dude is far from a troll. I have never met him in person but have interacted with him for several years across multiple forums and he is one of the good ones.

[tony@CIC]

23 minutes ago, russtopherb said:

 

I personally find it a bit ironic that the OP has started multiple threads all about growing the game and fearing losing players... then comes back in with a post about keeping certain types of people out of the game and away from his club. Was my post a bit tongue in cheek? Certainly. However, I'd be mortified of the thought of this being the first thread a new poster may stumble upon after signing up and seeing members openly talking about not wanting to play with people who may look exactly like them. MGS is great about allowing us to civilly express our opinions, however I find it more than curious that someone would start a thread about not losing avid players then come back the next page and point out how they wanted to personally stay away from certain types of avid players and keep them away from "their" game.

Well said!

[RickyBobby_PR]

40 minutes ago, russtopherb said:

I'm taking issue with more than that here, but yes - I was dead serious. Some of my favorite playing partners are guys I played in bands with for years. My brother and his brother-in-law toured the east coast in the last 90's in a hardcore band and are both avid golfers. When I pulled up to the range the other day, I was blasting the Dead Kennedys. I'm also the marketing manager for an international company so let's be real - no place for judging books by the cover here. 

I personally find it a bit ironic that the OP has started multiple threads all about growing the game and fearing losing players... then comes back in with a post about keeping certain types of people out of the game and away from his club. Was my post a bit tongue in cheek? Certainly. However, I'd be mortified of the thought of this being the first thread a new poster may stumble upon after signing up and seeing members openly talking about not wanting to play with people who may look exactly like them. MGS is great about allowing us to civilly express our opinions, however I find it more than curious that someone would start a thread about not losing avid players then come back the next page and point out how they wanted to personally stay away from certain types of avid players and keep them away from "their" game.

Even crazier is he never asked those he knows why they quit or if he did ask he didn’t provide their reasoning

[Big money]

As an avid golfer .  One issue I have is loud mouths or ones out there not taking the game seriously . Example would be racing the carts down the paths or hills. Or maybe drinking a little more than my liking. I’ve played many a course around this country that i ran into this . Either being joined up with or playing behind or in front of. We’ve told the rangers and little will improve . Or they will only improve when the rangers are watching. If I dealt with this on a daily basis I would think about leaving the game. For me Golf is a sanctuary or an escape from headaches. I’m not expecting anyone to be a tour pro . But I do expect others to treat the game and the course like a tour pro would 

[chisag]

1 hour ago, russtopherb said:

I'm taking issue with more than that here, but yes - I was dead serious. Some of my favorite playing partners are guys I played in bands with for years. My brother and his brother-in-law toured the east coast in the last 90's in a hardcore band and are both avid golfers. When I pulled up to the range the other day, I was blasting the Dead Kennedys. I'm also the marketing manager for an international company so let's be real - no place for judging books by the cover here. 

 

... When I had been playing about 5 years on a blue collar muni, I was paired up with a dorky slightly over weight accountant in his early 40's wearing a shirt with his shirt buttoned to the top and black work socks pulled almost up all the way to his knees. Both big fashion no-no's at the time.  The other two guys were grave digging stoners at the cemetery next door that could have passed for Bill and Ted having an excellent golfing adventure. One about 6'2" and over weight and the other a 5'8" 135lb skinny kid, both in their mid 20's wearing Metal t shirts and work boots. I was what many would consider a yuppie wearing khaki pants, Izod polo and a Titleist visor. It was a little uncomfortable on the first tee. But as the round progressed it was obvious I was more skilled than the other 3 but they all really loved the game and not only concentrated to the fullest on their own shots, regardless of how bad they were, but also were involved with the rest of the foursome's shots and were complementary or supportive. They asked me for advice and we all had a great time.

... The accountant had told us he was going to have to leave before finishing because it was very slow and they only had one car and his wife was picking him up at 6pm sharp, which gave him 4.5 hrs to play. LOL, did I say he was an accountant? We were sitting on a bench waiting on the 15th hole, which would be his last hole, and I said how cool is this game? All 3 joined in saying how much they love golf. I said yea, we all love golf but where else could 4 people that looked like us get along so well and have such a good time with each other? I thought on the first tee Oh No I am paired up with this prim and proper business guy and 2 stoners and you guys thought you were paired up with this yuppie a$$hole that was gonna talk about his wife Buffy, his stock portfolio and his summer home ... and we were all soooo wrong! We all laughed and they agreed they had similar thoughts.  

...I think it was a great life lesson for all of us as well as teaching us golf can bring any and everyone together and most importantly as russtopherb said "you can't judge a book by it's cover". 

[HardcoreLooper]

@chisag - Thanks for sharing that.  That's a big part of why I play golf and why I help create new golfers.  This game is for everyone who wants it.

[Headhammer]

Was speaking to some golfers of various ages this weekend about this topic. Answers were across the board from chronic injuries, needing more & more recovery time between rounds, family responsibilities & new passions. One 62 year old has discovered rock climbing as a hobby and travels daily to climbing destinations. I can barely get out of bed in the morning and this guy is rock climbing every day! 

[Golfspy_CG2]

On 9/27/2019 at 6:46 PM, Edveed said:

This is obvious you’re trolling.Go troll somewhere else 

Name calling isn't tolerated here.

Also, why don't you choose ONE of the THREE user names you are using in this thread and on this site and keep it to one,  and delete the other two, before we delete all of them for you.   

This isn't a suggestion by the way. 

[tony@CIC]

22 minutes ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

Name calling isn't tolerated here.

Also, why don't you choose ONE of the THREE user names you are using in this thread and on this site and keep it to one,  and delete the other two, before we delete all of them for you.   

This isn't a suggestion by the way. 

@Golfspy_CG2 Thanks for stepping in. 

[jddaigneault]

This is an interesting topic. I think where you play certainly makes a difference. I coach high school, and have to tell my boys to fix every ball mark on greens (not just theirs) and leave the course looking better than it was when you got there. I wish I could say I don’t have to tell them that, but simply do because everyone should play that way. However, I’ll play in the group behind them and fix every ball mark and every divot, only to have the pro shop tell me someone complained about ball marks and pace of play. 

There were no ball marks. We WALK an 18 hole round in under 4.5 hours. People literally complain because they’re kids and kids must be punks goofing around. 

Meanwhile, the kids are out there earning scholarships shooting under par.

Move had some of the experiences mentioned where people are amazing on the course. Played with a guy who was barefoot and looked high as a kite, great round. Once had a member at a private course get one of my kids thrown off for wearing Callaway golf pants that were somehow in their mind improper. Also had a member try and get me to tuck in my pullover, despite me explaining pullovers don’t get tucked, polos do. 

There are pricks and great people everywhere. Golf is no exception. Entitled people see the course as theirs and that anyone slowing them down shouldn’t be allowed out. Sometimes we have people drive up behind a 5 hour round to ask how the boys are playing. I’m worried they’re coming to complain (slow group in front of them is always the reason for us being slow), and they just want to support kids.  

It is unfortunate to have negative interactions on golf courses. I’ve definitely stopped playing certain courses because of it. It sucks the life out of a round. If everyone would just be kind and pleasant, this game would be better. That just isn’t how the world works, and golf is just a microcosm of that. 

[Berg Ryman]

I find it very interesting this topic comes up because of a situation I had yesterday, which I recounted in detail in the Fantasy Football Commissioners DM on Twitter, but because of this thread I share with you today.

First, we need to go back to Masters Sunday, I had purchased through GolfNow a tee-time at a local semi-private golf course in my area for 18 holes and a cart for $10. That's correct, $10. However, the course decided to close that day because of potential damage due to the cold and early season conditions, so I got a raincheck and refund, no big deal.

Fat forward to Sunday. I had played my local course Saturday morning in our skins game an put together a very Jeckel & Hyde round of 44-39 on par 35-37. Seeing that my game was coming into a form and seeing that Sunday was going to be a good day. I booked to be part of a foursome at 9:15 at this course using my raincheck. I got there at 9, checked in and went to the putting green. I looked at a man who was there smoking a cigar as the only other person and introduced myself. Apparently he said he was waiting for some friends to play.  I mentioned I was in the 9:15 and he went back to the clubhouse. Turns out, the guy they wanted to play with isn't showing up until 9:40, so I'm frozen out.

Meanwhile, a foursome tees off at roughly 9. Once I realize I'm left holding the bag, I tee off at 9:20 with a wide open first hole and play it in around 8-10 minutes, with a par. I pull up to the second tee and this group is just off the tee. I wait for them to clear up and hit, not into them, but trying to keep a sustainable pace as to not hold up the course. I catch them again on 3, and they tell me there are 5 foursomes in front of me, so it's going to be a long wait. So, I buckle down, prepare myself to play very start-stop golf all day and just keep playing, staying a good 10-15 minutes ahead of the new foursome behind me and playing in the suggested pace, even though I could have made much better time. In the end, I shoot 40 from the tips, pretty damn good considering I haven't played this course in 5 years.

But then, I pull up after 9 and these guys are chowing down at the turn. I proceed to the 10th and have my tee in the ground when a cart comes whistling up to me. "Hey, we didn't say you could play through! We're in an outing of 6 foursomes, you gotta wait!" So, not only did the course not tell me there was an 'outing', there was no marshal or common sense as these guys were nearly 30-40 minutes out of position, taking 10's on holes that were straight away par 4's from 340 yards, and everyone was playing their own ball, instead of some captain and crew since no one them were good golfers.

So dear reader, I took my cart back to the clubhouse, parked it, took my bag off the cart, turned in my key, refused the secondary raincheck, thanked the young man who was in the pro shop, and walked off the course for the first time in 20 years of playing golf due to actions of another.

Was I emotional and perhaps not thinking straight? I'd accept that as a conclusion you'd come to from this. Perhaps I should have kept better control of my temper at the situation. But when you act with the entitlement these guys did, who rarely played golf that often (as I overheard on the 3rd, "maybe if I played more than once every five years I'd be better at this f'n game") combined with the complete lack of support from the course itself, it completed drained the fun out of what was supposed to be a fun experience. I'd assume this is not uncommon among people who get frustrated at the game. 

Thanks for letting me air this story out. I'm never going back to that facility again, and at $50 a pop on weekends, my wallet will be much happier.

[TR1PTIK]

38 minutes ago, Berg Ryman said:

I find it very interesting this topic comes up because of a situation I had yesterday, which I recounted in detail in the Fantasy Football Commissioners DM on Twitter, but because of this thread I share with you today.

First, we need to go back to Masters Sunday, I had purchased through GolfNow a tee-time at a local semi-private golf course in my area for 18 holes and a cart for $10. That's correct, $10. However, the course decided to close that day because of potential damage due to the cold and early season conditions, so I got a raincheck and refund, no big deal.

Fat forward to Sunday. I had played my local course Saturday morning in our skins game an put together a very Jeckel & Hyde round of 44-39 on par 35-37. Seeing that my game was coming into a form and seeing that Sunday was going to be a good day. I booked to be part of a foursome at 9:15 at this course using my raincheck. I got there at 9, checked in and went to the putting green. I looked at a man who was there smoking a cigar as the only other person and introduced myself. Apparently he said he was waiting for some friends to play.  I mentioned I was in the 9:15 and he went back to the clubhouse. Turns out, the guy they wanted to play with isn't showing up until 9:40, so I'm frozen out.

Meanwhile, a foursome tees off at roughly 9. Once I realize I'm left holding the bag, I tee off at 9:20 with a wide open first hole and play it in around 8-10 minutes, with a par. I pull up to the second tee and this group is just off the tee. I wait for them to clear up and hit, not into them, but trying to keep a sustainable pace as to not hold up the course. I catch them again on 3, and they tell me there are 5 foursomes in front of me, so it's going to be a long wait. So, I buckle down, prepare myself to play very start-stop golf all day and just keep playing, staying a good 10-15 minutes ahead of the new foursome behind me and playing in the suggested pace, even though I could have made much better time. In the end, I shoot 40 from the tips, pretty damn good considering I haven't played this course in 5 years.

But then, I pull up after 9 and these guys are chowing down at the turn. I proceed to the 10th and have my tee in the ground when a cart comes whistling up to me. "Hey, we didn't say you could play through! We're in an outing of 6 foursomes, you gotta wait!" So, not only did the course not tell me there was an 'outing', there was no marshal or common sense as these guys were nearly 30-40 minutes out of position, taking 10's on holes that were straight away par 4's from 340 yards, and everyone was playing their own ball, instead of some captain and crew since no one them were good golfers.

So dear reader, I took my cart back to the clubhouse, parked it, took my bag off the cart, turned in my key, refused the secondary raincheck, thanked the young man who was in the pro shop, and walked off the course for the first time in 20 years of playing golf due to actions of another.

Was I emotional and perhaps not thinking straight? I'd accept that as a conclusion you'd come to from this. Perhaps I should have kept better control of my temper at the situation. But when you act with the entitlement these guys did, who rarely played golf that often (as I overheard on the 3rd, "maybe if I played more than once every five years I'd be better at this f'n game") combined with the complete lack of support from the course itself, it completed drained the fun out of what was supposed to be a fun experience. I'd assume this is not uncommon among people who get frustrated at the game. 

Thanks for letting me air this story out. I'm never going back to that facility again, and at $50 a pop on weekends, my wallet will be much happier.

If not told otherwise, I would have made the same decision you did and play through that group at the turn. If it was an organized event or regular group the pro shop attendant should have told you.

We have a large group of guys that play multiple times during the week and they have to follow the same rules as everyone else including pace of play. If I had been in your situation, I think I would have at least asked the pro shop what was going on with the groups in front and maybe also asked if I could play the front 9 twice.

Unfortunately, the way it played out appears to be the fault of multiple parties, but I do find it hard to blame you for reacting the way you did - especially since I wasn't there to hear what was actually said and how it was said.

[Berg Ryman]

2 minutes ago, TR1PTIK said:

If not told otherwise, I would have made the same decision you did and play through that group at the turn. If it was an organized event or regular group the pro shop attendant should have told you.

We have a large group of guys that play multiple times during the week and they have to follow the same rules as everyone else including pace of play. If I had been in your situation, I think I would have at least asked the pro shop what was going on with the groups in front and maybe also asked if I could play the front 9 twice.

Unfortunately, the way it played out appears to be the fault of multiple parties, but I do find it hard to blame you for reacting the way you did - especially since I wasn't there to hear what was actually said and how it was said.

Thanks @TR1PTIK, I've moved on from it. Wanted to but it out there one more time to get it out of my system and now, we're on to the next week and hopefully some good momentum going into year's end.

[Golfspy_CG2]

1 hour ago, Berg Ryman said:

Thanks @TR1PTIK, I've moved on from it. Wanted to but it out there one more time to get it out of my system and now, we're on to the next week and hopefully some good momentum going into year's end.

Every course I've played and the rule at our course...You don't  sit and eat at the turn.  If you do, you forfeit you position on the course.  Our GM and I had this discussion just last week, some players seem to think it's  the 1970's country club mentality where a 30 minute lunch at the turn is the norm.