pozzit Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 Ok so I'm trying to understand why lofts are getting so much stronger. Im under the option that the strengthening of lofts is driven primary by marketing and not by true need. I will gladly admit I'm wrong if there are requirements for the lofts getting stronger to compensate for tech but I'm just curious why. So my understanding and opinion. The tech improvements in irons over the last 20 years has been significant, lower CG for higher flight and better decent angles, more perimeter weighting for forgiveness, thinner faces for more ball speed. All these improvements are fantastic if you need those things. I have also noticed over the last 10-15 years the standard 8 club set has shifted from 3-PW to 4-GW. I know we are in a marketing driven society and when a 7 iron is tested at the fitter and has less loft and goes longer it makes us want to pay money but it's always a 7 and not a true comparison. Also wanting to show off and say we hit our 7 iron 180 yards compared to your buddy who had to hit 6 or 5 makes us feel strong. So are we really gaining anything by adjusting lofts or are we just slowly changing the number on the bottom of the club? Using MyGolfSpy mobile app fixyurdivot 1 Quote Driver: Ben Hogan GS53 4W: Maltby KE4 2i: Maltby KE4 FDI 4-PW: Maltby TS-1 - C-Taper 120g 50,54,58: Maltby TSW Putter: L.A.B. DF2.1 Accra Shaft 2023 Forum Testers - L.A.B. Putters Ball: Mixed prefer ProV1 or Snell Handicap: 9.2 - Best Score: 72 (E) Springdale CC, Canton NC -2022 2020 Forum Tester - Ben Hogan GS53 Driver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post cnosil Posted October 17, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted October 17, 2019 Why is there no length standards, flex standards, headweight standards, shoe size standard, etc. You can say they lofts are jacked and no one can really provide a good reason why. Like you said, clubs launch higher and travel farther. Marketing is all about distance; most players won't buy clubs that go 10 yards less than their current clubs. Ultimately the number on the bottom of the club is and has always been meaningless; find the clubs that allow you to hit the ball a specific distance. If that is labelled 7, 33*, A, 150 yrd, or something else, does it really matter? PMookie, Smellis745, golfish! and 8 others 11 Quote Driver: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven Fairway: TS3 15* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke Hybrids: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype 915H 24* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype Irons: TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite Wedge: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite Putter: Sacks Parente MC 3 Stripe Backup Putters: Milled Collection RSX 2, mFGP2, Futura 5W, TM-180 Member: MGS Hitsquad since 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrogginBullfish Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 There's obviously some marketing involved as the average weekend warrior does want to hit the ball longer and straighter.However, it's also a technical thing. When you lower the CG, you inevitably increase launch angle through the gear effect. It also decreases spin. High launch, low spin and the ball speed gains from the lower lofts and thin faces, which increase energy transfer, mean the ball goes a long way and maintains decent stopping power through descent angle.It's a trade-off. If they kept more traditional lofts, you'd have launch angles that are too high and you don't get the same ball speed retention with the extra loft.Ultimately, it's about getting fit for the right clubs for you. I see so many people ranting about jacked lofts when they play blades. Companies still make blades. There's no need to get riled up over a company offering a club that's not meant for you.There are plenty who can still get by using traditional sets of clubs, but what companies are finding out through the game improvement categories are that traditional sets don't work for everyone and these are the types of clubs that can help make the game more fun for those people and can potentially help them to play better golf without investing a lot of money and time into lessons and playing more often.As technology advances, we may see loft jacking regress back to more traditional numbers but for the time being it is a necessary part of that slice of the market.Sent from my Pixel 2 using MyGolfSpy mobile app MattF, Golfspy_CG2, russtopherb and 5 others 8 Quote DRIVER PXG 0811XF GEN4 (10.5°) FAIRWAY WOODS PXG 0341XF GEN4 (16°) HYBRIDS PXG 0317XF GEN4 (19°), PXG 0317X GEN4 (22°) IRONS PXG 0311T GEN3 (5 - 9) WEDGES TAYLORMADE MG3 (45°, 50°, 55° TW Grind, 60° TW Grind) PUTTER PXG BATTLE READY ONE & DONE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Golfspy_CG2 Posted October 17, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted October 17, 2019 32 minutes ago, pozzit said: Ok so I'm trying to understand why lofts are getting so much stronger. Im under the option that the strengthening of lofts is driven primary by marketing and not by true need. I will gladly admit I'm wrong if there are requirements for the lofts getting stronger to compensate for tech but I'm just curious why. So my understanding and opinion. The tech improvements in irons over the last 20 years has been significant, lower CG for higher flight and better decent angles, more perimeter weighting for forgiveness, thinner faces for more ball speed. All these improvements are fantastic if you need those things. I have also noticed over the last 10-15 years the standard 8 club set has shifted from 3-PW to 4-GW. I know we are in a marketing driven society and when a 7 iron is tested at the fitter and has less loft and goes longer it makes us want to pay money but it's always a 7 and not a true comparison. Also wanting to show off and say we hit our 7 iron 180 yards compared to your buddy who had to hit 6 or 5 makes us feel strong. So are we really gaining anything by adjusting lofts or are we just slowly changing the number on the bottom of the club? Using MyGolfSpy mobile app Is the bold really a thing to you? I play with a couple guys who will hit a 7 iron from 170 and I'll hit a 7 or 9 w. And yet I generally score 5-8 shots better than them every round. You touched on the reasons for stronger--not jacked---lofts yourself. And Cnosil as usual summed it all up very well. My 2019 SUV gets 5 to 8 more MPG than my 2010 one did. I guess I have a jacked fuel tank HardcoreLooper, JohnSmalls, tony@CIC and 9 others 12 Quote G430 Max 10K TSiR1 15.0 Aldlia Ascent 60g TSR2 18.0 PX Aldila Ascent 6og TSi1 20 Aldila Ascent Shafts R T350 5-GW SteelFiber I80 SM10 48F/54M and58K S159 48S/52S/56W/60B Select 5.5 Flowback 35" ProV1 Play number 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THEZIPR23 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 42 minutes ago, pozzit said: Ok so I'm trying to understand why lofts are getting so much stronger. Im under the option that the strengthening of lofts is driven primary by marketing and not by true need. I will gladly admit I'm wrong if there are requirements for the lofts getting stronger to compensate for tech but I'm just curious why. So my understanding and opinion. The tech improvements in irons over the last 20 years has been significant, lower CG for higher flight and better decent angles, more perimeter weighting for forgiveness, thinner faces for more ball speed. All these improvements are fantastic if you need those things. I have also noticed over the last 10-15 years the standard 8 club set has shifted from 3-PW to 4-GW. I know we are in a marketing driven society and when a 7 iron is tested at the fitter and has less loft and goes longer it makes us want to pay money but it's always a 7 and not a true comparison. Also wanting to show off and say we hit our 7 iron 180 yards compared to your buddy who had to hit 6 or 5 makes us feel strong. So are we really gaining anything by adjusting lofts or are we just slowly changing the number on the bottom of the club? Using MyGolfSpy mobile app 17 minutes ago, cnosil said: Why is there no length standards, flex standards, headweight standards, shoe size standard, etc. You can say they lofts are jacked and no one can really provide a good reason why. Like you said, clubs launch higher and travel farther. Marketing is all about distance; most players won't buy clubs that go 10 yards less than their current clubs. Ultimately the number on the bottom of the club is and has always been meaningless; find the clubs that allow you to hit the ball a specific distance. If that is labelled 7, 33*, A, 150 yrd, or something else, does it really matter? This is my question as well cnosil 1 Quote Stealth 2+ 9 (Diamana PD 60 S 45") Stealth 2+ 15 (Diamana PD 70 S 43") G425 19 (Raijin 2.0 85x) G425 22 (Raijin 2.0 85x) ZX7 5-9 (KBS C Taper S) Vokey SM9 45 10 F (KBS 610) Vokey SM9 49 08 F (KBS 610) Vokey SM9 55 08 M (KBS 610) Vokey SM9 59 04 T (KBS 610) Spider GT Splitback 34" ProV1 #23 Twitter @THEZIPR23 "One thing Golf has taught me, is that my muscles have no memory." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickyBobby_PR Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 Jacked lofts don’t exist. Numbers in the bottom of an iron are arbitrary and chosen by the manufacturer. There’s no standard in golf. pick a style of club and look at the specs for each company in that style. launch, spin and land angle are what matters. The manufacturers work to get irons into a certain window. Mr. 82, tony@CIC, Golfspy_CG2 and 5 others 8 Quote Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4 Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120 Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60 Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1 Ball: Titleist Prov1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Shankster Posted October 18, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted October 18, 2019 My only issue with it is some manufacturers don’t make corresponding wedges. I personally would like to see more set GW’s. It is a full shot club for most everyone, yet we have to try and match a specialty wedge in there. There are a lot of sets with GW’s for sure... but a few in my preferred iron category lacks. That 50°/51° square soled wedge.Speaking in my own preferences of course. I’d love to see a Blueprint GW... Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy fozcycle, THEZIPR23, revkev and 7 others 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PMookie Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 My only issue with it is some manufacturers don’t make corresponding wedges. I personally would like to see more set GW’s. It is a full shot club for most everyone, yet we have to try and match a specialty wedge in there. There are a lot of sets with GW’s for sure... but a few in my preferred iron category lacks. That 50°/51° square soled wedge.Speaking in my own preferences of course. I’d love to see a Blueprint GW... Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpyI had an issue with my Hot Metal Pros for this reason. The PW was 45*, but went 150 yards. My 50* is and Edel and goes 120 yards, leaving a ridiculous gap. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Shankster, MattF, tony@CIC and 2 others 5 Quote Driver: Ping G430 Max 9*, Ping Tour 70X Fairway: Ping G425 15*, Ping Tour 70X Hybrid: Ping G425 22*, Ping Tour 80X Irons: Ping i230 4-GW, TT DG X100 Wedges: SMS 50D/54V/58DModus 130 stiff, +1” Putter: EAS 1.0 Ball: Titleist 2023 AVX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PMookie Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 I’m with the OP here. It’s difficult to find an iron with some forgiveness that doesn’t make the ball travel further, loft-to-loft. My Hot Metal Pro PW was 45*, my Ping i210 was 46*.... The HMP went 15 yards further. Why??? Yep, folks want more distance and need it, I guess, but it’s hard to shop for clubs with some offset, forgiveness, and not have the ball go super high, spin low, and go further. Hot faces leave huge gaps at the wedges... See my previous post! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro tony@CIC, JohnSmalls, MattF and 1 other 4 Quote Driver: Ping G430 Max 9*, Ping Tour 70X Fairway: Ping G425 15*, Ping Tour 70X Hybrid: Ping G425 22*, Ping Tour 80X Irons: Ping i230 4-GW, TT DG X100 Wedges: SMS 50D/54V/58DModus 130 stiff, +1” Putter: EAS 1.0 Ball: Titleist 2023 AVX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozzit Posted October 18, 2019 Author Share Posted October 18, 2019 Why is there no length standards, flex standards, headweight standards, shoe size standard, etc. You can say they lofts are jacked and no one can really provide a good reason why. Like you said, clubs launch higher and travel farther. Marketing is all about distance; most players won't buy clubs that go 10 yards less than their current clubs. Ultimately the number on the bottom of the club is and has always been meaningless; find the clubs that allow you to hit the ball a specific distance. If that is labelled 7, 33*, A, 150 yrd, or something else, does it really matter? First off you right it doesnt matter and my point in this discussion was to try to understand if I was missing something. I completely agree if clubs were A,B,C or some how allowed you to put your own distances on there that what is truly important to the golfer. My main point is to understand if I was incorrect in my belief that deceasing lofts was only intended from a marketing standpoint. Although I think that is a main driver there are probably some merit to helping lower the trajectory. My concern is that it could hurt the game and players to compete over unimportant arbitrary number that in an actual round mean nothing. If the other guys hit his 7 iron 190 that shouldn't affect what club I hit from 190. I want players to make logical decisions on how it affects there dispursion and distance control and ignore the fact that the 7 goes a mile and a half. Using MyGolfSpy mobile app golfish!, tony@CIC and cnosil 3 Quote Driver: Ben Hogan GS53 4W: Maltby KE4 2i: Maltby KE4 FDI 4-PW: Maltby TS-1 - C-Taper 120g 50,54,58: Maltby TSW Putter: L.A.B. DF2.1 Accra Shaft 2023 Forum Testers - L.A.B. Putters Ball: Mixed prefer ProV1 or Snell Handicap: 9.2 - Best Score: 72 (E) Springdale CC, Canton NC -2022 2020 Forum Tester - Ben Hogan GS53 Driver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrogginBullfish Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 That is an issue that most brands haven't really addressed.Mizuno, though, have the JPX line of wedges that I think would be more in line performance wise with the HMP irons.PXG is one of the only manufacturers that I know of that offers their GI (0211 and 0311XF) and SGI (0311 SGI) irons all the way through to a LW so you're at least getting the same tech throughout the set which makes gapping easier. They even offer a GW in their Players (0311 P) iron.The issue really just comes in when you go from a club designed for distance, i.e. the iron set, to a club designed for control, i.e. the specialty wedges.I’m with the OP here. It’s difficult to find an iron with some forgiveness that doesn’t make the ball travel further, loft-to-loft. My Hot Metal Pro PW was 45*, my Ping i210 was 46*.... The HMP went 15 yards further. Why??? Yep, folks want more distance and need it, I guess, but it’s hard to shop for clubs with some offset, forgiveness, and not have to ball go super high, spin low, and go further. Hot faces leave huge gaps at the wedges... See my previous post!Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ProSent from my Pixel 2 using MyGolfSpy mobile app cnosil, MattF, tony@CIC and 2 others 5 Quote DRIVER PXG 0811XF GEN4 (10.5°) FAIRWAY WOODS PXG 0341XF GEN4 (16°) HYBRIDS PXG 0317XF GEN4 (19°), PXG 0317X GEN4 (22°) IRONS PXG 0311T GEN3 (5 - 9) WEDGES TAYLORMADE MG3 (45°, 50°, 55° TW Grind, 60° TW Grind) PUTTER PXG BATTLE READY ONE & DONE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozzit Posted October 18, 2019 Author Share Posted October 18, 2019 The issue really just comes in when you go from a club designed for distance, i.e. the iron set, to a club designed for control, i.e. the specialty wedges. MyGolfSpy mobile app Interesting I would say that the irons are more about distance control then just distance. I need my driver and woods to go far I need my irons and wedges to be exact. Using MyGolfSpy mobile app MattF and tony@CIC 2 Quote Driver: Ben Hogan GS53 4W: Maltby KE4 2i: Maltby KE4 FDI 4-PW: Maltby TS-1 - C-Taper 120g 50,54,58: Maltby TSW Putter: L.A.B. DF2.1 Accra Shaft 2023 Forum Testers - L.A.B. Putters Ball: Mixed prefer ProV1 or Snell Handicap: 9.2 - Best Score: 72 (E) Springdale CC, Canton NC -2022 2020 Forum Tester - Ben Hogan GS53 Driver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrogginBullfish Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 Your irons sure. But what I'm saying there specifically applies to people gaming GI, SGI or Player's Distance irons but then transition directly into specialist wedges. Interesting I would say that the irons are more about distance control then just distance. I need my driver and woods to go far I need my irons and wedges to be exact. Using MyGolfSpy mobile app Sent from my Pixel 2 using MyGolfSpy mobile app cnosil 1 Quote DRIVER PXG 0811XF GEN4 (10.5°) FAIRWAY WOODS PXG 0341XF GEN4 (16°) HYBRIDS PXG 0317XF GEN4 (19°), PXG 0317X GEN4 (22°) IRONS PXG 0311T GEN3 (5 - 9) WEDGES TAYLORMADE MG3 (45°, 50°, 55° TW Grind, 60° TW Grind) PUTTER PXG BATTLE READY ONE & DONE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickyBobby_PR Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 6 hours ago, pozzit said: Interesting I would say that the irons are more about distance control then just distance. I need my driver and woods to go far I need my irons and wedges to be exact. Using MyGolfSpy mobile app Distance control means different things to different people. some want to flight the ball down and hit different distances with the same club. others want consistent distance which is another form of control where they don’t catch a hot one from the fairway and fly a green. companies know golfers want to hit the ball far and so they market distance which is easier to sell than accuracy. Some guys want to hit their 7 iron the same distance they did when they were younger. Mr. 82 and MattF 2 Quote Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4 Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120 Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60 Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1 Ball: Titleist Prov1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozzit Posted October 18, 2019 Author Share Posted October 18, 2019 Thats a good point RickyBobby distance control does mean different things to different people. I was referring more toward a consistent distance. I need my 8 iron to fly 10 yards further then my 9 and 10 yards less then my 7. The need is for a small window of distance.I will agree distance sells just like 0-60mph times on cars, girls in bikinis in beer commercials and low low prices on Black Friday. I just feel there may be some disservice to golfers by being lured to needing to hit it further with less club instead of hitting the club with the consistent distance and forgiveness that is needed.Saying all that I appreciate all the feedback so far I have a feeling being on a forum for a golf company driven by making decisions based on the right data and not taking the marketing dollars and promoting players to but the best club on all metrics.Using MyGolfSpy mobile app tony@CIC 1 Quote Driver: Ben Hogan GS53 4W: Maltby KE4 2i: Maltby KE4 FDI 4-PW: Maltby TS-1 - C-Taper 120g 50,54,58: Maltby TSW Putter: L.A.B. DF2.1 Accra Shaft 2023 Forum Testers - L.A.B. Putters Ball: Mixed prefer ProV1 or Snell Handicap: 9.2 - Best Score: 72 (E) Springdale CC, Canton NC -2022 2020 Forum Tester - Ben Hogan GS53 Driver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickyBobby_PR Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 17 minutes ago, pozzit said: Thats a good point RickyBobby distance control does mean different things to different people. I was referring more toward a consistent distance. I need my 8 iron to fly 10 yards further then my 9 and 10 yards less then my 7. The need is for a small window of distance. I will agree distance sells just like 0-60mph times on cars, girls in bikinis in beer commercials and low low prices on Black Friday. I just feel there may be some disservice to golfers by being lured to needing to hit it further with less club instead of hitting the club with the consistent distance and forgiveness that is needed. Saying all that I appreciate all the feedback so far I have a feeling being on a forum for a golf company driven by making decisions based on the right data and not taking the marketing dollars and promoting players to but the best club on all metrics. Using MyGolfSpy mobile app That is some tight gapping. For most companies they look to get 15 yards between clubs. theres a large number of golfers out there that want to hit the ball far. They don’t care that it might go to far or that the gap is 17 yards instead of 12. I think most golfers would prefer to hit an iron over a hybrid so if a 4i goes the same distance and hybrid and is almost as say to get in the air that’s not a bad thing for most. Everyone wants golf to be easy so what does it matter if someone plays clubs that go high and far? What does it matter if that person has a gap that’s bigger or smaller than someone else prefers? The golfer looking at the gi/sgi type of club is buying it because they are inconsistent with contact on the face and thus distance. If the golfer is out playing and has a good time or is just happy to be playing that’s all that matters. the great thing about golf is there are lots of brands with lots of choices from baby blades to almost a full set of hybrids. Find what works for you and play that. MattF, cnosil and JohnSmalls 3 Quote Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4 Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120 Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60 Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1 Ball: Titleist Prov1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. 82 Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 (edited) 50 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said: That is some tight gapping. For most companies they look to get 15 yards between clubs. My gapping on my irons is about 10 yards between each iron, so I'm not sure which company you are referring to (my irons are the PING G irons on my 5-9 irons). Here's a breakdown of what is in my bag, distance wise, with my irons: 3 hybrid - 205 yds 4 crossover - 195 yds 5 iron - 185 yds 6 iron - 175 yds 7 iron - 165 yds 8 iron - 155 yds 9 iron - 145 yds PW - 125 yds GW - 115 yds SW - 100 yds LW - 90 yds So beyond the massive gap between PW and 9 iron, most of my gapping is about 10 yards. Edited October 18, 2019 by GSwag fozcycle 1 Quote G400 Driver XR 4 Fairway 16.5° Fli-Hi Utility Iron - 21° G Series 5-9 irons SM7 46°, 50°, 54° & 58° Ghost Spider S putter Nexus Laser Rangefinder Garmin Approach S20 GPS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaidJacket Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 Before I was fit for my current set my fitter gave me an input sheet and asked that I record about 5-6 rounds and all my shot distances, what club I used, and the results of those shots. It even asked for weather conditions - wind, wet/dry, temp, etc. I then sent the data to my fitter before my fitting day arrived. Then when I arrived he had another questionnaire form that I filled out which we discussed prior to starting the actual fitting. This questionnaire requested other basic data such as typical ball flight patterns, scores, hcp., type of turf I normally play from, balls used, expectations, strong or weak points in my game, my age, etc. etc. Back to the topic of this thread - I can't tell you the lofts of my irons except wedges (I have the data somewhere) but they are set at what's generally considered traditional lofts. The results of my fitting wasn't increased distance or higher/lower ball flight. I was mostly interested in accuracy which increased dramatically. My irons like most everyone else's are numbered. All I know when I play a certain numbered iron are my expected distances. I do not rely on another players club selection when making a shot. Sure I ask from time to time but it's immaterial to what I select because their clubs were not made for me. MattF and cnosil 2 Quote My Sun Mountain bag currently includes: 771CSI 5i - PW and PFC Micro Tour-c 52°, 56°, 60 wedges EXS 10.5*, 929-HS FW4 16.5* Willimette w/GolfPride Contour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnosil Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 . I do not rely on another players club selection when making a shot. Sure I ask from time to time but it's immaterial to what I select because their clubs were not made for me. Exactly. If I ask another player about club selection I really want to known if you hit the shot well and how far do you normally hit the club not the number on the bottom. MattF, THEZIPR23 and RickyBobby_PR 3 Quote Driver: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven Fairway: TS3 15* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke Hybrids: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype 915H 24* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype Irons: TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite Wedge: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite Putter: Sacks Parente MC 3 Stripe Backup Putters: Milled Collection RSX 2, mFGP2, Futura 5W, TM-180 Member: MGS Hitsquad since 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THEZIPR23 Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 13 hours ago, PMookie said: I’m with the OP here. It’s difficult to find an iron with some forgiveness that doesn’t make the ball travel further, loft-to-loft. My Hot Metal Pro PW was 45*, my Ping i210 was 46*.... The HMP went 15 yards further. Why??? Yep, folks want more distance and need it, I guess, but it’s hard to shop for clubs with some offset, forgiveness, and not have the ball go super high, spin low, and go further. Hot faces leave huge gaps at the wedges... See my previous post! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro While I believe there are numerous options for forgiveness without huge distance gains you are correct in the fact that there are gaps that the OEM's are creating with the lofts. I believe that they will catch up eventually but having a wedge go 150 when your gw goes 120 is a huge problem. When I got my P790's this is the one thing I was worried about so I had the short irons bent 2* weak. I try to base all my gaps off my PW @ 135, it worked but off the rack it would have been a big problem. With my 785's they are bent 1* strong in order to achieve the same distance with my PW. MattF 1 Quote Stealth 2+ 9 (Diamana PD 60 S 45") Stealth 2+ 15 (Diamana PD 70 S 43") G425 19 (Raijin 2.0 85x) G425 22 (Raijin 2.0 85x) ZX7 5-9 (KBS C Taper S) Vokey SM9 45 10 F (KBS 610) Vokey SM9 49 08 F (KBS 610) Vokey SM9 55 08 M (KBS 610) Vokey SM9 59 04 T (KBS 610) Spider GT Splitback 34" ProV1 #23 Twitter @THEZIPR23 "One thing Golf has taught me, is that my muscles have no memory." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickyBobby_PR Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 1 hour ago, GSwag said: My gapping on my irons is about 10 yards between each iron, so I'm not sure which company you are referring to (my irons are the PING G irons on my 5-9 irons). Here's a breakdown of what is in my bag, distance wise, with my irons: 3 hybrid - 205 yds 4 crossover - 195 yds 5 iron - 185 yds 6 iron - 175 yds 7 iron - 165 yds 8 iron - 155 yds 9 iron - 145 yds PW - 125 yds GW - 115 yds SW - 100 yds LW - 90 yds So beyond the massive gap between PW and 9 iron, most of my gapping is about 10 yards. 12-15 yards is a normal gap for the majority of irons and recommended down thru wedges. what one sees will be dependent on that person and how the deliver the club into the ball as launch & spin and consequently land angle will be affected. the good thing about most clubs is they can be adjusted to get what gap a player wants. 1 minute ago, THEZIPR23 said: While I believe there are numerous options for forgiveness without huge distance gains you are correct in the fact that there are gaps that the OEM's are creating with the lofts. I believe that they will catch up eventually but having a wedge go 150 when your gw goes 120 is a huge problem. When I got my P790's this is the one thing I was worried about so I had the short irons bent 2* weak. I try to base all my gaps off my PW @ 135, it worked but off the rack it would have been a big problem. With my 785's they are bent 1* strong in order to achieve the same distance with my PW. Off the top of my head Titleist and Callaway offer multiple set wedges to gw or sw to fit into their players, gi/sgi irons and TaylorMade might as well with the m irons. theres always going to be a gap in bags whether it’s from irons to woods or irons to wedges. Those who play the more forgiving irons would need to buy more wedges and would be able to drop hybrids because the irons cover that gap and wedges are cheaper than hybrids. Those who play a smaller iron head would have gaps at the top. MattF 1 Quote Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4 Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120 Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60 Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1 Ball: Titleist Prov1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THEZIPR23 Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 3 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said: 12-15 yards is a normal gap for the majority of irons and recommended down thru wedges. what one sees will be dependent on that person and how the deliver the club into the ball as launch & spin and consequently land angle will be affected. the good thing about most clubs is they can be adjusted to get what gap a player wants. Off the top of my head Titleist and Callaway offer multiple set wedges to gw or sw to fit into their players, gi/sgi irons and TaylorMade might as well with the m irons. theres always going to be a gap in bags whether it’s from irons to woods or irons to wedges. Those who play the more forgiving irons would need to buy more wedges and would be able to drop hybrids because the irons cover that gap and wedges are cheaper than hybrids. Those who play a smaller iron head would have gaps at the top. You are correct, it is very difficult to gap a bag from top to bottom with off the rack lofts. I had the P790 gaps dialed in because of changing the lofts. I would have to look but I believe I had them weaker on the short iron and then somewhere around 6 & 7 iron they normalized and then 4 & 5 iron were stronger. 785's are all strong but with the different tech this is expected. OEM's need to cater to the majority and until they start changing the numbers on the bottom they are not helping the average golfer. MattF 1 Quote Stealth 2+ 9 (Diamana PD 60 S 45") Stealth 2+ 15 (Diamana PD 70 S 43") G425 19 (Raijin 2.0 85x) G425 22 (Raijin 2.0 85x) ZX7 5-9 (KBS C Taper S) Vokey SM9 45 10 F (KBS 610) Vokey SM9 49 08 F (KBS 610) Vokey SM9 55 08 M (KBS 610) Vokey SM9 59 04 T (KBS 610) Spider GT Splitback 34" ProV1 #23 Twitter @THEZIPR23 "One thing Golf has taught me, is that my muscles have no memory." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickyBobby_PR Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 1 hour ago, THEZIPR23 said: You are correct, it is very difficult to gap a bag from top to bottom with off the rack lofts. I had the P790 gaps dialed in because of changing the lofts. I would have to look but I believe I had them weaker on the short iron and then somewhere around 6 & 7 iron they normalized and then 4 & 5 iron were stronger. 785's are all strong but with the different tech this is expected. OEM's need to cater to the majority and until they start changing the numbers on the bottom they are not helping the average golfer. The average golfer doesn’t know and probably doesn’t care what the loft on their irons are. They care how far they go. I play a lot of golf with random people as I tend to play solo and usually last minute. I don’t remember the last time anyone talked about the loft on their irons. They were all about when I have x distance I pull y club. Many also like that they hit their new x club farther than their old one and don’t account for anything related to the design of it. I’ve been to numerous demo days and the vast majority of golfers are looking for one thing and that is does this club go farther than my current one...that applies to woods and irons. it’s the internet golfers and the better players that have issue with the perceptions of jacked lofts and are the ones looking to make sure their bag is gapped correctly. So the notion of companies doing a disservice to the average golfer is that gets projected onto the average golfer MattF and Golfspy_CG2 2 Quote Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4 Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120 Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60 Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1 Ball: Titleist Prov1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THEZIPR23 Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 2 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said: The average golfer doesn’t know and probably doesn’t care what the loft on their irons are. They care how far they go. I play a lot of golf with random people as I tend to play solo and usually last minute. I don’t remember the last time anyone talked about the loft on their irons. They were all about when I have x distance I pull y club. Many also like that they hit their new x club farther than their old one and don’t account for anything related to the design of it. I’ve been to numerous demo days and the vast majority of golfers are looking for one thing and that is does this club go farther than my current one...that applies to woods and irons. it’s the internet golfers and the better players that have issue with the perceptions of jacked lofts and are the ones looking to make sure their bag is gapped correctly. So the notion of companies doing a disservice to the average golfer is that gets projected onto the average golfer This is exactly my point. I am able to gap my clubs properly due to my knowledge. I can combat what OEM's do with lofts. The average golfer has no idea and relies on the OEM's to provide proper gaping for them and they are not doing that. Quote Stealth 2+ 9 (Diamana PD 60 S 45") Stealth 2+ 15 (Diamana PD 70 S 43") G425 19 (Raijin 2.0 85x) G425 22 (Raijin 2.0 85x) ZX7 5-9 (KBS C Taper S) Vokey SM9 45 10 F (KBS 610) Vokey SM9 49 08 F (KBS 610) Vokey SM9 55 08 M (KBS 610) Vokey SM9 59 04 T (KBS 610) Spider GT Splitback 34" ProV1 #23 Twitter @THEZIPR23 "One thing Golf has taught me, is that my muscles have no memory." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickyBobby_PR Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 3 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said: This is exactly my point. I am able to gap my clubs properly due to my knowledge. I can combat what OEM's do with lofts. The average golfer has no idea and relies on the OEM's to provide proper gaping for them and they are not doing that. They don’t care to do it. There average golfer wants and easy fix and isn’t into the nuts and bolts of the club. Most don’t get fit. don’t most consumers rely on a company to do stuff for them? People take their cars to mechanics for maintenance because they either don’t want to do it, don’t have time to do it or don’t want to know how to do it. Same for many other professions. Why would/should golf be any different? aerospace_ray and MattF 2 Quote Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4 Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120 Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60 Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1 Ball: Titleist Prov1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THEZIPR23 Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 4 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said: They don’t care to do it. There average golfer wants and easy fix and isn’t into the nuts and bolts of the club. Most don’t get fit. don’t most consumers rely on a company to do stuff for them? People take their cars to mechanics for maintenance because they either don’t want to do it, don’t have time to do it or don’t want to know how to do it. Same for many other professions. Why would/should golf be any different? Yes they use a mechanic, just like I use myself as a mechanic for my clubs. But there are fundamental things that everyone expects from a car that are provided by manufacturers. When I hit a PW and go down to a GW on next shot I should be able to expect that the gap is manageable. This was the case for countless years and now it is not. I just bought a new TV, I expect the picture out of the box to look good to the average person. I was able to adjust the settings to my preferences, something that a lot of people will not do. Same should be applied to golf. romeopapazulu, aerospace_ray, MattF and 1 other 4 Quote Stealth 2+ 9 (Diamana PD 60 S 45") Stealth 2+ 15 (Diamana PD 70 S 43") G425 19 (Raijin 2.0 85x) G425 22 (Raijin 2.0 85x) ZX7 5-9 (KBS C Taper S) Vokey SM9 45 10 F (KBS 610) Vokey SM9 49 08 F (KBS 610) Vokey SM9 55 08 M (KBS 610) Vokey SM9 59 04 T (KBS 610) Spider GT Splitback 34" ProV1 #23 Twitter @THEZIPR23 "One thing Golf has taught me, is that my muscles have no memory." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickyBobby_PR Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 22 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said: Yes they use a mechanic, just like I use myself as a mechanic for my clubs. But there are fundamental things that everyone expects from a car that are provided by manufacturers. When I hit a PW and go down to a GW on next shot I should be able to expect that the gap is manageable. This was the case for countless years and now it is not. I just bought a new TV, I expect the picture out of the box to look good to the average person. I was able to adjust the settings to my preferences, something that a lot of people will not do. Same should be applied to golf. The bolder part is the case for you but not for every golfer. The average golfer doesn’t care about that. Most still play the same wedge lofts they always played because that’s what they are used to. Companies aren’t doing a disservice to the golfer. If they were then the sales numbers would reflect than and they would change their approach but companies like Callaway are making huge profits and outside of forums golfers aren’t complaining about lofts, gaps, and so on. Quote Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4 Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120 Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60 Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1 Ball: Titleist Prov1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THEZIPR23 Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 13 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said: The bolder part is the case for you but not for every golfer. The average golfer doesn’t care about that. Most still play the same wedge lofts they always played because that’s what they are used to. And their game is suffering because the current lofts are not matching the wedges being played. 16 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said: Companies aren’t doing a disservice to the golfer. If they were then the sales numbers would reflect than and they would change their approach but companies like Callaway are making huge profits and outside of forums golfers aren’t complaining about lofts, gaps, and so on. How would sales suffer if average golfers don't realize what is happening? Quote Stealth 2+ 9 (Diamana PD 60 S 45") Stealth 2+ 15 (Diamana PD 70 S 43") G425 19 (Raijin 2.0 85x) G425 22 (Raijin 2.0 85x) ZX7 5-9 (KBS C Taper S) Vokey SM9 45 10 F (KBS 610) Vokey SM9 49 08 F (KBS 610) Vokey SM9 55 08 M (KBS 610) Vokey SM9 59 04 T (KBS 610) Spider GT Splitback 34" ProV1 #23 Twitter @THEZIPR23 "One thing Golf has taught me, is that my muscles have no memory." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozzit Posted October 18, 2019 Author Share Posted October 18, 2019 26 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said: And their game is suffering because the current lofts are not matching the wedges being played. How would sales suffer if average golfers don't realize what is happening? This is exactly where my head is at. The average golfer sees my 7 iron goes x yards further and they are happy with that but neglect to realize this means the gap in wedges has increased and gap in woods/hybrid is decreasing. Also looking at some of the lofts in common clubs they are not evenly distributed. Many clubs are using 2.5-3* gaps in long irons then up to 5+* gaps in PW and GW if they offer one. This tells me they are trying to balance the gaps but can cause more issues. I get the average golfer could care less about specs but I'm sure they care about how they deal with different shots on the course and are suffering at these gaps. THEZIPR23 1 Quote Driver: Ben Hogan GS53 4W: Maltby KE4 2i: Maltby KE4 FDI 4-PW: Maltby TS-1 - C-Taper 120g 50,54,58: Maltby TSW Putter: L.A.B. DF2.1 Accra Shaft 2023 Forum Testers - L.A.B. Putters Ball: Mixed prefer ProV1 or Snell Handicap: 9.2 - Best Score: 72 (E) Springdale CC, Canton NC -2022 2020 Forum Tester - Ben Hogan GS53 Driver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romeopapazulu Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 4 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said: The average golfer doesn’t know and probably doesn’t care what the loft on their irons are. They care how far they go. I play a lot of golf with random people as I tend to play solo and usually last minute. I don’t remember the last time anyone talked about the loft on their irons. They were all about when I have x distance I pull y club. Many also like that they hit their new x club farther than their old one and don’t account for anything related to the design of it. I’ve been to numerous demo days and the vast majority of golfers are looking for one thing and that is does this club go farther than my current one...that applies to woods and irons. it’s the internet golfers and the better players that have issue with the perceptions of jacked lofts and are the ones looking to make sure their bag is gapped correctly. So the notion of companies doing a disservice to the average golfer is that gets projected onto the average golfer Doesn't this just confirm what the OP was asking/suggesting in the first place? I was anti-jacking to start, veered towards indifferent, but am now thinking it is hurting more golfers than helping. My current irons are at least 1-1.5 clubs longer than the old Wilson blades I have. Is that from 40 years of technological advances? Some of it is, I am sure. But I bet a majority of the distance gain is because the old 8 iron has the loft of my new 9 iron. Does the number on the sole matter? Of course not. But if the average golfer is going to chase an 8 iron that goes farther, they are going to get wooed by the new 8 iron that is essentially their old 7. I don't have any concrete data, but I bet the trend has left many golfers with more long irons that they can't actually hit (or if they can, the 4 doesn't often go further than the 5) and they now have a giant gap between their set PW and what they thought was a GW that no longer fits that gap. What do they have to show for the new set? The same scores because they created as many problems as they fixed. I think that IS a disservice to the unknowing weekend warrior because they are pitched a solution to improve their game that doesn't necessarily fix anything. Just because they don't know doesn't mean its not an issue. aerospace_ray and THEZIPR23 2 Quote G400 LST 8.5 Ping Tour 65 Stiff Adams XTD Ti 18 deg 3Hy Ben Hogan PTx 22-46 Ben Hogan TK15 50, 54, 58 deg wedges Futura 5.5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.