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Why are Lofts getting JACKED


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7 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

What do you hit from 135 if your PW goes 150 and your GW goes 120? To me that is where the problem lies. 

I would think "most" serious golfers know how to adjust distance with 3/4 - 1/2 swings, adjust grip? 

If you can hit a PW 150.... you da man!...lol. I'm lucky to get my 7 iron to 150 these days.

Edited by silver & black
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2 minutes ago, silver & black said:

I have a question regarding the gaps for the wedge game. I don't see how it's an issue?

No matter if you are hitting a 7 iron that is really a 5 iron or any other iteration of loft variances from different brands, how does that affect wedge gaping? If you know how far you hit your wedge/s.... where is the problem?

The dissenters will  say that with the stronger lofts you often end up with a 43* PW as a result and the next club up is likely a GW at 50 or 52.  So they say the 7 to 8 degree difference will leave them a distance gap between those two clubs instead of the 4 to 5 degrees that everyone seems  to think is gospel.

The problem with that thinking...IMO only, is we have established we are talking about the average weekend casual golfer who doesn't really get into fitting and all  the specs   That player will  not notice or care about a 2 degree gap difference between his older clubs and his newer ones.    It's all a bunch of commotion about something that will at most affect 1% to 2% of the players, and those players are already educated enough to know they can do things to offset that difference if it's noticeable to them. 

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1 minute ago, silver & black said:

I would think "most" serious golfers know how to adjust distance with 3/4 - 1/2 swings, adjust grip? 

If you can hit a PW 150.... you da man!...lol. I'm lucky to get my 7 iron to 150 these days.

Serious golfers yes. Average golfer no. 
I can’t sniff 150 with my PW unless I hit it in the forehead. 

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3 minutes ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

The dissenters will  say that with the stronger lofts you often end up with a 43* PW as a result and the next club up is likely a GW at 50 or 52.  So they say the 7 to 8 degree difference will leave them a distance gap between those two clubs instead of the 4 to 5 degrees that everyone seems  to think is gospel.

The problem with that thinking...IMO only, is we have established we are talking about the average weekend casual golfer who doesn't really get into fitting and all  the specs   That player will  not notice or care about a 2 degree gap difference between his older clubs and his newer ones.    It's all a bunch of commotion about something that will at most affect 1% to 2% of the players, and those players are already educated enough to know they can do things to offset that difference if it's noticeable to them. 

To me it has nothing to do with the lofts, very few golfers know what they actually are and what that means. The more distance the better. And if you can achieve that distance with a shorter club you are going to gain control. My point is simply that gaps in the bottom of the bag are not helping the average golfer. OEM’s will catch up some way. When I started playing 20+ years ago almost nobody had a GW, you could hardly even find one. Now they are common. 

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3 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

To me it has nothing to do with the lofts, very few golfers know what they actually are and what that means. The more distance the better. And if you can achieve that distance with a shorter club you are going to gain control. My point is simply that gaps in the bottom of the bag are not helping the average golfer. OEM’s will catch up some way. When I started playing 20+ years ago almost nobody had a GW, you could hardly even find one. Now they are common. 

But the lofts is what "everyone" on the other side of the discussion is complaining about "the new 7 irons are 28 degrees, that's a 5 iron"  

I agree with the more distance the better for again 98% of us golfers, the other 2% don't need or are good enough to adjust.  While the average golfer will  not be helped as you said, I can honestly say as an employee of a club who goes out and plays with a lot of regular players who are just out for  fun, they don't put much thinking into their club decisions or wonder now that this 100 yard shot that may be between their PW and GW if they even know that, they don't care they'll just grab either one and hope to come within 10 yards of the green in any direction.  

Anyway, it's a good fun discussion, that those of us who believe the tech is real and that there is actual R&D reasons for the stronger lofts will  not waiver, and those who think it's all just done for marketing won't be convinced. 

HA...I told someone last night this "debate" has become the new "blades vs CB" discussion. 

 

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3 hours ago, ZenGolfer said:

Agree.  I remember when I was still testing the Tommy Armour Atomics, Id get grouped with a random and they would ask me what iron I was hitting and I would kind of laugh and tell them something like, "well, it says that its a 9 but its really more like an 8".

I really wish they all would do like what Ben Hogan does in that instead of putting a number on the bottom of the club, they put the loft.  Theyre not going to do that though because it would destroy the marketing hype that the clubs are new and improved over the model they replaced.  If everyone knew that the, "improved" of they new clubs was really nothing more than the fact that they lofted and jacked and the shafts are longer, they probably wouldnt buy new clubs.

The problem with that and even guys I know that were fans of hogan irons complain about having to keep track of what loft goes whst distance and it’s easier to know the iron number goes X distance.  The other issue is people don’t like change so getting away from what has been in use for decades isn’t easy to get away from.

The guys at hogan realized this and they now use iron numbers instead of lofts 

2 hours ago, silver & black said:

I have a question regarding the gaps for the wedge game. I don't see how it's an issue?

No matter if you are hitting a 7 iron that is really a 5 iron or any other iteration of loft variances from different brands, how does that affect wedge gaping? If you know how far you hit your wedge/s.... where is the problem?

Some people don’t know how far they hit any club. Many golfers base their distance off the one time they hit that particular club in that one perfect hit and every other time they missed the center or chunked or thinned it so those distances don’t count even though that’s their typical shot and then don’t use the avg distance to figure out how far they really hit a club and most played the same set makeup they have always played and will replace a long iron with a hybrid of the same number (4h replace 4i) even though because of launch conditions they probably hit the 4h farther 

2 hours ago, THEZIPR23 said:

What do you hit from 135 if your PW goes 150 and your GW goes 120? To me that is where the problem lies. 

Buy a wedge that fits in between them. GW, SW, LW are terms that need to go away but like iron numbers mentioned above are things in golf that the avg consumer would hate to see changed because it takes the guess work out of the purchase of clubs.

Lots of pros use 60* wedges out of the sand but that’s called a lw. Depending on the distance, ball position in the bunker, the lie they may use a  pw, gw, or whatever they feel is needed to get out. The avg golfer sees pw, gw (the club between pw and sw), Sw(tge club I’m using from the sand everytime), lw (need this fo hit high flop shots)

when in reality the bag should be setup based on gapping needs, the type of courses one plays and the conditions of those courses. For me I figure out what my longest iron goes then find out what type of club and the loft that gets me what I need to fit between that and my fw. It could be a 2-4* gap using a hybrid depending on design of the club. Then I figure out my 9i distance and if I need to bend pw or buy a non set wedge to fit that gap and then fill in goin down from there. I don’t typically full swing anything past my gw which is usually a 50 and I’ve found that 4* gap to my next wedge suits my needs and then will play a 58 or 60 depending how I feel when I’m buying my wedges 

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All that responded to my question... thank you.

 

I guess I still don't get what the issue is. If you are lying 120 from the green, you don't know what wedge to hit? For me, that's a PW (my PW).... close to a full swing. I've also hit 9 iron from that distance for a bump and run..... some times even an 8 iron. I would think most people that play the game, even the "weekend warriors" know that they can adjust distances with a variety of clubs.

I don't understand why it's so important to have absolute gap yardages unless you are always taking a full swing?

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30 minutes ago, silver & black said:

All that responded to my question... thank you.

 

I guess I still don't get what the issue is. If you are lying 120 from the green, you don't know what wedge to hit? For me, that's a PW (my PW).... close to a full swing. I've also hit 9 iron from that distance for a bump and run..... some times even an 8 iron. I would think most people that play the game, even the "weekend warriors" know that they can adjust distances with a variety of clubs.

I don't understand why it's so important to have absolute gap yardages unless you are always taking a full swing?

The vast majority of amateur golfers especially high handicaps full swing every club. I don’t remember the last random person I got paired with that didn’t get a yardage then choose the club that they feel goes that exact yardage with a full swing. The group that I have been playing with for 20+ years (down to about 10 or so from almost 20 over the years) doesn’t have more than 1 person in it that takes anything less than a full swing from anything other than what most consider the awkward yardages. 

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34 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The vast majority of amateur golfers especially high handicaps full swing every club. I don’t remember the last random person I got paired with that didn’t get a yardage then choose the club that they feel goes that exact yardage with a full swing. The group that I have been playing with for 20+ years (down to about 10 or so from almost 20 over the years) doesn’t have more than 1 person in it that takes anything less than a full swing from anything other than what most consider the awkward yardages. 

If that is truly the case, I guess I can understand that. But to expect a manufacturer of golf clubs to keep the gaps and yardages consistent throughout a set of clubs seems a bit silly to me. Golf is a game of skill.... it takes a little time and effort to learn your clubs and play decently..... whatever decently means to any particular person. It sounds like people want plug and play equipment.... that isn't the reality of the game.

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On ‎10‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 8:37 AM, pozzit said:

Thats a good point RickyBobby distance control does mean different things to different people. I was referring more toward a consistent distance. I need my 8 iron to fly 10 yards further then my 9 and 10 yards less then my 7. The need is for a small window of distance.

I will agree distance sells just like 0-60mph times on cars, girls in bikinis in beer commercials and low low prices on Black Friday.

I just feel there may be some disservice to golfers by being lured to needing to hit it further with less club instead of hitting the club with the consistent distance and forgiveness that is needed.

Saying all that I appreciate all the feedback so far I have a feeling being on a forum for a golf company driven by making decisions based on the right data and not taking the marketing dollars and promoting players to but the best club on all metrics.

Using MyGolfSpy mobile app
 

I just snagged one of the OP's recent post to comment.  Originally lofts were tweaked by touring pros in the 80's (at least if my memory serves correctly) for gapping purposes.  This actually started because guys (Seve, Tom Kite) wanted to have a more lofted wedge in their bag, took out say a 4 iron and strengthened some stuff like 5,6,7 to fill the gap.  Then guys like Greg Norman came along and because they were having issues with launching the ball too high, with too much spin (balata) they strengthened all of their lofts and added their extra wedge between PW and SW.

At that point there was a general industry standard but it started to erode as OEMs noticed all sorts of opportunities for club making (some marketing, some game improvement - I don't pretend to be prescient that I might know what was going through their minds). 

However and here is my answer to the OP - this was nothing new.  A number of years back when we were having this debate Golf Spy Barbajo produced a number of golf ads from the 1940's and 50's that marketed for guess what?  Distance irons - Hogan, Wilson, big names associated with classic quality marketed to the public that they could hit those irons farther than their competitors. 

I sympathize with those who have trouble properly gapping - that's why you need to trusted fitter who's willing to stick with you until you have the gaps right.  It's also why I've become convinced that you need a good tracking program to be sure you've got the gapping right.

I know this is a big deal to some people to me it's not - so long as I know how far that I hit each one of the clubs in my bag and with what type of ball flight I'm good to go. 

Appealing to golfer's egos is nothing new though. 

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So where does this more distance chase eventually end up?  I suspect the OP may be thinking along these lines of thought - I have.  Will club mfg's continue offering more aggressive lofts as the years roll along?  My fitter strongly advised against the optional "power loft" in the G410's; citing likely problems with yardage gaps.  

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We have all watched this happen... I have a set from the 1960s with the loft stamped on each club, the highest numbered iron is an 8-iron and it's 50 degrees and 34" long!!

I think it makes more sense for your Pitching Wedge to be used for pitching.

I like names of clubs rather than numbers, like niblick and mashie.

Always thought that a modern set could be named better... For example, with lofts in brackets:

Driver (9)
Fairway (15)
Hybrid (20)
Long iron (24)... Meets the 38/24 rule
Strong iron (28)
Mid iron (32)
Approach iron (36)
Short iron (40)
Strong Wedge (44)
Pitching Wedge (48)
Gap Wedge (52)
Sand Wedge (56)
Lob Wedge (60)

Still has 5 wedges... But giving the other clubs names seems to soften it somehow to me?



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5 hours ago, silver & black said:

If that is truly the case, I guess I can understand that. But to expect a manufacturer of golf clubs to keep the gaps and yardages consistent throughout a set of clubs seems a bit silly to me. Golf is a game of skill.... it takes a little time and effort to learn your clubs and play decently..... whatever decently means to any particular person. It sounds like people want plug and play equipment.... that isn't the reality of the game.

People play the game for different reasons. Some to play and get better and see how low they can get their cap. Others to have fun with friends and play ok (maybe break 100 or 90). Others just play to have fun and don’t care about score or gaps or lofts is the materials and design. 
 

companies understand there’s a wide range of golfers of all abilities and wants. Like any company selling goods and to make a profit they are going to produce products the public wants or needs. Their success is based on the consumer buying the product. If the consumer doesn’t buy they stop selling said product and readjust. Golf is no different. Many people don’t have time to practice to get better so make a product that offers forgiveness, makes the game easier because the club is bigger and gets the ball in the air

clubs with stronger lofts are played by all levels of golfers for various reasons. The better golfer will do things to hit different shots with the same club and look at gapping. The more educated consumer will setup a bag with better gapping than the avg golfer or weekend warrior. These guys just want to play golf and enjoy their few hours on the course. 

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21 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The problem with that and even guys I know that were fans of hogan irons complain about having to keep track of what loft goes whst distance and it’s easier to know the iron number goes X distance.  The other issue is people don’t like change so getting away from what has been in use for decades isn’t easy to get away from.

The guys at hogan realized this and they now use iron numbers instead of lofts 

IMO, thats just that everyone is used to the irons being numbered.  I get it but it also kind of begs the question: what is a 9-iron?  What is a 7-iron?  That would be liking having 2 Ford Mustangs.  1 with a turbo 4 and another with a V8.  Theyre both Mustangs but is one, "better" because it is faster?

To me, its just creates an apples to oranges comparison that unless your really into gear and look up the specs for everything probably arent going to know but if you hit that club and see youre ball goes 5 or 10 yards longer, its going to make you think that club is better.

Id just like to see more transparency in golf gear and a stop to all the marketing BS that a new club is better because it hits the ball farther but really all they did was strengthen the loft and make the shaft longer.

A while back I think it was Mark Crossfield who took an older Mizuno iron, bent the loft a few degrees stronger, put a longer shaft on it and compared it to what was the current Taylormade iron at the time that has pretty much the same specs and the distances were virtually identical.

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5 hours ago, ZenGolfer said:

IMO, thats just that everyone is used to the irons being numbered.  I get it but it also kind of begs the question: what is a 9-iron?  What is a 7-iron?  That would be liking having 2 Ford Mustangs.  1 with a turbo 4 and another with a V8.  Theyre both Mustangs but is one, "better" because it is faster?

To me, its just creates an apples to oranges comparison that unless your really into gear and look up the specs for everything probably arent going to know but if you hit that club and see youre ball goes 5 or 10 yards longer, its going to make you think that club is better.

Id just like to see more transparency in golf gear and a stop to all the marketing BS that a new club is better because it hits the ball farther but really all they did was strengthen the loft and make the shaft longer.

A while back I think it was Mark Crossfield who took an older Mizuno iron, bent the loft a few degrees stronger, put a longer shaft on it and compared it to what was the current Taylormade iron at the time that has pretty much the same specs and the distances were virtually identical.

As rev mentioned above the marketing for distance has been going on for decades so the chances it’s going to stop are slim to none especially with the fascination about hitting the ball farther from the vast majority of golfers.

For some the more distance (regardless of the reason why it goes farther) makes it better. That doesn’t mean it’s right or wrong. Some people prefer the added distance due to age, health, etc and others just want to hit the ball further because like the mlb marketing of the 90s “chicks dig the long ball.”

what I wish would stop is the complaining about jacked lofts, marketing bs, playing golf a certain is wrong and so on. As I mentioned in other posts who care what someone has in their bag or why, play what you like and enjoy the game the way you choose and let others do the same. Golf for many is a hobby and like other hobbies some get more into the nuts and bolts and others do it as something fun and aren’t looking to take it as serous as other.

 

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48 minutes ago, Middler said:

And some of us wish you’d quit lumping everything under “who cares what number is on the iron.”

Yes, most GI clubs launch higher/easier than blades or even older GI clubs which helps many players enjoy golf more. Great!

If you’ve already decided to buy new irons to have something more forgiving than your old ones, that’s perfectly fine and what’s stamped on them doesn’t matter. Great!

If you’ve already decided buying new irons just to have something new after X years, perfectly fine and what’s stamped on them doesn’t matter. Great!

But if you’re buying new irons because you want more distance, and you choose because the new jacked loft 5-iron goes further than your old (unbeknownst higher loft) 5-iron, you’ve been duped by marketing BS.

There are lots of players who unwittingly (and some knowingly) do the latter. We’ve all seen players proud of hitting their new irons further...

Again, the “who cares” crowd consistently refuses to acknowledge that time and time again when a good player (or any amateur who pures both) hits a 28 degree iron, whether it’s stamped 7 or 5, they go the same distance within a few yards. There’s no reason they couldn’t have just stamped soles with numbers corresponding to traditional lofts - except they’re counting on dupes oblivious to lofts thinking they hit the new ones further...that’s BS.

So answer this for me.  Does a 10.5 degree driver from 2000 go tbd same distamce as a 10.5 degree driver in 2019 if both are swung at 95 mph? 
 

No they do not because of all the better materials the 2019 are built with.   So what makes you think irons would be any different? 
 

so saying its just due to lofts is minimizing and not understanding the work that the engineers of today do. 
 

As far as marketing   Show me one product in any industry that hasn’t marketed their most recent product to be better tasting, last longer, take better pictures...etc etc    Expecting golf companies to stop marketing their products ss longer ir more forgiving is very naive  

 

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So answer this for me.  Does a 10.5 degree driver from 2000 go tbd same distamce as a 10.5 degree driver in 2019 if both are swung at 95 mph? 
 
No they do not because of all the better materials the 2019 are built with.   So what makes you think irons would be any different? 
 
so saying its just due to lofts is minimizing and not understanding the work that the engineers of today do. 
 
As far as marketing   Show me one product in any industry that hasn’t marketed their most recent product to be better tasting, last longer, take better pictures...etc etc    Expecting golf companies to stop marketing their products ss longer ir more forgiving is very naive  
 
Marketing gonna market.

Look at golf balls. Now that is some awesome work... Getting your average golfer that barely hits the groves to think they need premium golf balls.

Someone did make a set with recalibrated lofts, forget who it was... But no one noticed.

I do think the fact remains that if you care about your game, you know your gaps. If you don't really care... You don't really care.

Lots of manufacturers are now trying to help golfers set up their sets better. They will still try and appeal to the golfer ego though. It works.

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37 minutes ago, BaldnBroke said:

Marketing gonna market.

Look at golf balls. Now that is some awesome work... Getting your average golfer that barely hits the groves to think they need premium golf balls.

Someone did make a set with recalibrated lofts, forget who it was... But no one noticed.

I do think the fact remains that if you care about your game, you know your gaps. If you don't really care... You don't really care.

Lots of manufacturers are now trying to help golfers set up their sets better. They will still try and appeal to the golfer ego though. It works.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk
 

Ahh. Ego!!  Thats a whole other coversation.  Ha 

i was in a discuusion on one of the FB groups where a guy posted his bag that had 6 headcovers  in it not counting his putter. 

people were mocking him for being a high handicapper and a  “old man” set without even knowing  if either were true  

i commended him for putting ego aside (as i did this year with my set makeup)  and went with a setup that gives him the best chance to shoot better scores  


 

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:titelist-small: TSR2 10.0 HZRDUS Red CB 6.0 

:titelist-small: TSiR2 10.0  Tensei Blue X ink 55g 

:titelist-small: TSR2 16.5 PX Evenflow 5.5 60 g 

:titelist-small: TSi1 20 and 23 degree hybrids Aldila Ascent Shafts R

:titelist-small: T200 5-GW SteelFiber I80 

:titelist-small: SM8 48F/54/58 D Grinds 

:scotty-cameron-1: Select 5.5 Flowback 35" 

:titelist-small: ProV1X Play number 12

 

 

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2 hours ago, Middler said:

And some of us wish you’d quit lumping everything under “who cares what number is on the iron.”

Yes, most GI clubs launch higher/easier than blades or even older GI clubs which helps many players enjoy golf more. Great!

If you’ve already decided to buy new irons to have something more forgiving than your old ones, that’s perfectly fine and what’s stamped on them doesn’t matter. Great!

If you’ve already decided buying new irons just to have something new after X years, perfectly fine and what’s stamped on them doesn’t matter. Great!

But if you’re buying new irons because you want more distance, and you choose because the new jacked loft 5-iron goes further than your old (unbeknownst higher loft) 5-iron, you’ve been duped by marketing BS.

There are lots of players who unwittingly (and some knowingly) do the latter. We’ve all seen players proud of hitting their new irons further...

Again, the “who cares” crowd consistently refuses to acknowledge that time and time again when a good player (or any amateur who pures both) hits a 28 degree iron, whether it’s stamped 7 or 5, they go the same distance within a few yards. There’s no reason they couldn’t have just stamped soles with numbers corresponding to traditional lofts - except they’re counting on dupes oblivious to lofts thinking they hit the new ones further...that’s BS.

What’s stamped on the bottom is all arbitrary. There’s no standard in golf that stated a 7i has to be x degree. Across all the brands there’s going to be a difference In loft for the same iron in the same category and it could be anywhere from 1-4*
 

for traditional lofts would that be the lofts from the 1930s-1950s, the 1960s-1970s, 1980s, early 90s, 1997-present? 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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3-PW or 4-GW, they are but a numeral stamped on the sole of the irons.

If you check the loft of the irons and the length of the golf clubs, the two sets should be darn close.

It really just the point of view, depending on where you stand.   If you ask a younger golfer, he will say, oh, those vintage golf clubs have weak loft and shorter.  But if you ask a golfer for the last 4-6 decades, he will tell you the modern iron's loft are jacked up and they are way too long.

I had stopped worry about looking for the number stamped on the sole of the iron.

All I need to know is which club for the 100 yard and which one is the 140 yard club, then I could get the right golf club from the bag.  

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