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Why are Lofts getting JACKED


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I wish y'all would stop blaming marketing for your own choices that you regret making and want an excuse for.

Signed,

A Marketing Manager. 

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"But if you’re buying new irons because you want more distance, and you choose because the new jacked loft 5-iron goes further than your old (unbeknownst higher loft) 5-iron, you’ve been duped by marketing BS."

This is straight up bogus. The "jacked loft" 5 iron may have the same loft as a 3 iron in a set of blades but you're missing the key component -- that the people who these clubs are designed for can't hit that loft without the assistance these clubs provide. So while you see a 3 iron disguised as a 5 iron, the club itself has a shaft length closer to the 5 iron blade and the flight itself is closer to that of a 5 iron blade from a high speed player. Something those players couldn't achieve otherwise. It's not marketing BS. I've personally gone through the process of designing a long iron for my capstone design project in my last year of engineering at university. The engineering behind the clubs is real. Marketing people dress it up to appeal to people, yes. That, however, doesn't make the tech any less real for the people these clubs are designed for.

Most of the bitching about jacked lofts, it seems, comes from people with enough speed already who are capable of hitting longer irons in blades, or player's cavity backs, with gameable ball flights and distance gaps. The players, these so-called "jacked loft" clubs are designed for, can't. Their long irons in bladed sets tend to bunch together and the ball flights aren't gameable at all.

And some of us wish you’d quit lumping everything under “who cares what number is on the iron.”
Yes, most GI clubs launch higher/easier than blades or even older GI clubs which helps many players enjoy golf more. Great!
If you’ve already decided to buy new irons to have something more forgiving than your old ones, that’s perfectly fine and what’s stamped on them doesn’t matter. Great!
If you’ve already decided buying new irons just to have something new after X years, perfectly fine and what’s stamped on them doesn’t matter. Great!
But if you’re buying new irons because you want more distance, and you choose because the new jacked loft 5-iron goes further than your old (unbeknownst higher loft) 5-iron, you’ve been duped by marketing BS.
There are lots of players who unwittingly (and some knowingly) do the latter. We’ve all seen players proud of hitting their new irons further...
Again, the “who cares” crowd consistently refuses to acknowledge that time and time again when a good player (or any amateur who pures both) hits a 28 degree iron, whether it’s stamped 7 or 5, they go the same distance within a few yards. There’s no reason they couldn’t have just stamped soles with numbers corresponding to traditional lofts - except they’re counting on dupes oblivious to lofts thinking they hit the new ones further...that’s BS.


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4 minutes ago, Middler said:

I explicitly DIDN’T say that in the post you quoted. And I’ve acknowledged what engineers have done WRT lower CG/higher launch, forgiveness/larger “sweet spots” and COR and acknowledged those are good reasons to buy new clubs.

If want to convince me (it is possible), answer the two questions I’ve asked several times.

1) So why didn’t clubmakers just stamp the new irons with numbers corresponding to what was standard at the time (e.g. 7 iron 34-35* loft)?

2) The “who cares” crowd consistently refuses to acknowledge that time and time again when a good player (or any amateur who pures both) hits a 28 degree iron, whether it’s stamped 7 or 5, they go the same distance within a few yards.“ Why?

1) because time and again the buying public has shown they wont buy into that concept.  It's awakward and tougher to remember a 28 degree vs 6 iron.   It may seem illogical to you. But it's the truth as I've been told directly by OEM's. 

2) Thats not necessarily true.   More goes into club design than just the loft,. and yes while we all want distance---most everyone---rhere are other flight characteristics to be taken into consideration.  

 

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22 minutes ago, Middler said:

I explicitly DIDN’T say that in the post you quoted. And I’ve acknowledged what engineers have done WRT lower CG/higher launch, forgiveness/larger “sweet spots” and COR and acknowledged those are good reasons to buy new clubs.

If want to convince me (it is possible), answer the two questions I’ve asked several times.

1) So why didn’t clubmakers just stamp the new irons with numbers corresponding to what was standard at the time (e.g. 7 iron 34-35* loft)?

2) The “who cares” crowd consistently refuses to acknowledge that time and time again when a good player (or any amateur who pures both) hits a 28 degree iron, whether it’s stamped 7 or 5, they go the same distance within a few yards.“ Why? Almost every YouTube golf club reviewer with a Trackman has shown that over and over.

1. That 34-35* 7i is jacked loft compared to 7i of the 80s. Lofts have increased every decade and we have gone from everyone hitting blades to having more forgiving options and different lofts.

2. Club design. Launch windows and characteristics play a role in all of this.  there are videos around web that goes into all of this from engineers of different companies. 

if one doesn’t like The marketing of a product don’t buy it, but don’t get upset when other buy into or ignore it and buy what they want for whatever reason they want to buy it. It’s what makes golf great, there options for everyone and we all get to determine what we want to play and how we enjoy the game.

 

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I would think "most" serious golfers know how to adjust distance with 3/4 - 1/2 swings, adjust grip? 
If you can hit a PW 150.... you da man!...lol. I'm lucky to get my 7 iron to 150 these days.

The point of the differences of 4*-5* between clubs is to create gaps, usually from 12-15 yards. If one has a 30 yard gap, it’s not about “choking-down” or hitting 3/4 shots, it’s that there is a full-club gap in there that has to be filled. No “serious”’golfer is going to leave a 30 yard gap, and that doesn’t matter if it’s at the top of the bag, or the bottom. I had this EXACT gap of thirty yards between my 45* Hot Metal Pro PW and my 50* Edel wedge.... The PW, simply, went too far.



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1 hour ago, Middler said:

I explicitly DIDN’T say that in the post you quoted. And I’ve acknowledged what engineers have done WRT lower CG/higher launch, forgiveness/larger “sweet spots” and COR and acknowledged those are good reasons to buy new clubs.

If want to convince me (it is possible), answer the two questions I’ve asked several times.

1) So why didn’t clubmakers just stamp the new irons with numbers corresponding to what was standard at the time (e.g. 7 iron 34-35* loft)?

2) The “who cares” crowd consistently refuses to acknowledge that time and time again when a good player (or any amateur who pures both) hits a 28 degree iron, whether it’s stamped 7 or 5, they go the same distance within a few yards.“ Why? Almost every YouTube golf club reviewer with a Trackman has shown that over and over.

when a good player (or any amateur who pures both) hits a 28 degree iron, whether it’s stamped 7 or 5, they go the same distance within a few yards

The above is what I quoted, in essence you are saying clubs of the exact same loft will go the same distance within a couple yards if hit solidly.   I was asking if that is the case with all drivers marked with a 10.5 loft.  We all know it's not, and it's because of differing technologist and different materials that may be used.  The same thing applies to irons.

Anyway, no need for us all to keep going down this rabbit hole, those who continue to call them jacked lofts and blame marketing, will always feel that way.

Those of us who have spent time touring OEM facilities and speaking to and watching demonstrations with R&D people will believe what we know.

As others have said, buy and play what makes you happy and enjoy the game, don't worry about other people and their decisions, it's entirely up to them to base their purchasing decisions however they choose.   

I'll leave my final comments in this thread it at this, marketing is part of everything we buy and use on a daily basis, the coffee I drink is being marketed as stronger and more robust than others or even previous versions of the same brand.  Is it just marketing or are the beans produced in a way that extracts more flavor than previous versions.    I don't know, but the truth is probably a bit of both.

 

 

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15 hours ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

So what makes you think irons would be any different? 

Good point, and yes no doubt changes in material and design have improved distance.  But, were we to simply change ("jack") the loft on that 2000 circa iron, it would go further as well. You're right, we'll never see an ad for new irons stating "shorter distance" but as it pertains to offering more aggressive lofts, how far can they go with this?  Will today's 4i = a 7i in 2030?  Also isn't there a trade-off in playability with more aggressive lofts?  If so, it seems a little tit for tat... though for some, trading a little tat for some more tit makes sense. 

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4 minutes ago, Middler said:

We agree there, I don't know why I let myself get sucked in again...

It's all good, golf is our hobby, well it's my job (full time job as well) but we get passionate about our hobbies, I'm sure guys in hunting   and fish forums have discussions on hunting  and fishing equipment that is probably not so different than ours on golf 

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3 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Good point, and yes no doubt changes in material and design have improved distance.  But, were we to simply change ("jack") the loft on that 2000 circa iron, it would go further as well. You're right, we'll never see an ad for new irons stating "shorter distance" but as it pertains to offering more aggressive lofts, how far can they go with this?  Will today's 4i = a 7i in 2030?  Also isn't there a trade-off in playability with more aggressive lofts?  If so, it seems a little tit for tat... though for some, trading a little tat for some more tit makes sense. 

During a fitting for one of the G410  iron testers that I was able to sit in on, the fitter mentioned how set makeups have changed due to stronger lofts, more and more players are stopping at a 4 iron or even a 5 iron for that very reason.   in addition to a 24 degree iron today having material and design that makes it easier to hit than a 24 degree 4 iron of a few years back,  a lot of players aren't going that low as that gets into the area where they may have a hybrid fill in for that distance.   

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2 minutes ago, Middler said:

That's why iron sets were 3-PW when I started, now they start with a 4 or a 5 or even a 6 occasionally.

 

2 minutes ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

During a fitting for one of the G410  iron testers that I was able to sit in on, the fitter mentioned how set makeups have changed due to stronger lofts, more and more players are stopping at a 4 iron or even a 5 iron for that very reason.   in addition to a 24 degree iron today having material and design that makes it easier to hit than a 24 degree 4 iron of a few years back,  a lot of players aren't going that low as that gets into the area where they may have a hybrid fill in for that distance.   

Perhaps the next big breakthrough will be "transformer" clubs... a single club that can do it all. 

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54 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Good point, and yes no doubt changes in material and design have improved distance.  But, were we to simply change ("jack") the loft on that 2000 circa iron, it would go further as well. You're right, we'll never see an ad for new irons stating "shorter distance" but as it pertains to offering more aggressive lofts, how far can they go with this?  Will today's 4i = a 7i in 2030?  Also isn't there a trade-off in playability with more aggressive lofts?  If so, it seems a little tit for tat... though for some, trading a little tat for some more tit makes sense. 

A 7i today has no standard so it doesn’t matter what it’s called today or in the future except to those complaining about lofts today.

what type of trade off in playability are your referring to?

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5 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

A 7i today has no standard so it doesn’t matter what it’s called today or in the future except to those complaining about lofts today.

what type of trade off in playability are your referring to?

We're human, complaining is what we do 😉.  Really just asking the question about whether more aggressive lofts affect playability.

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17 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

We're human, complaining is what we do 😉.  Really just asking the question about whether more aggressive lofts affect playability.

But what aspect of playability? Shot shaping? Flighting ball down? Some other aspect?

without knowing what aspect of playability it’s hard to say if there’s an effect or whatever type of tradeoff you were thinking of in the original post.

from experience of playing clubs from different brands that would be considered gi thru blades I would say no generally

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39 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

But what aspect of playability? Shot shaping? Flighting ball down? Some other aspect?

without knowing what aspect of playability it’s hard to say if there’s an effect or whatever type of tradeoff you were thinking of in the original post.

from experience of playing clubs from different brands that would be considered gi thru blades I would say no generally

Any of those would be a tradeoff.  I guess where I'm coming from is that hitting low irons are generally considered more challenging and less forgiving than higher higher irons.  It just stands to reason that a today's 7i that hits like a 5i from the past might not be as playable, forgiving, shot shaping capable, etc. I'm not seeing that in the change from my PE2's to the G410's, but then these are not the power lofts either.  Plus, no doubt that design improvements, besides the more aggressive lofts, are compensating.  Still the question is just how far can they go with the loft changes?  

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39 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Any of those would be a tradeoff.  I guess where I'm coming from is that hitting low irons are generally considered more challenging and less forgiving than higher higher irons.  It just stands to reason that a today's 7i that hits like a 5i from the past might not be as playable, forgiving, shot shaping capable, etc. I'm not seeing that in the change from my PE2's to the G410's, but then these are not the power lofts either.  Plus, no doubt that design improvements, besides the more aggressive lofts, are compensating.  Still the question is just how far can they go with the loft changes?  

Lofts aren’t changing just the numbering on them and that’s already something that’s not a standard across the board as well as something that’s had been going on for decades as technology and designs change.
 

the design for gi/sgi and players distance is to reduce the movement side to side and help get the ball in the air. Will it be harder to move a gi style club up/down or left to right compared to a players iron like a cb or mb? Yes but it can still be done because the physics of club face and path which is what causes a ball to move hasn’t changed just the spin and launch characteristics

To a better player having to work more to flight/move the ball is may be a trade off but the vast majority of golfers buying gi/sgi style clubs aren’t looking to manipulate the flight and are looking for the help of getting the ball in the air especially in the top end of the set.

better players moving into a players distance iron or a gi knows they will have to give us some capability of flight manipulation but the chances that it affects their game is low. The percentage of people that manipulate the ball is low. There’s tour pros like ZJ who rarely if ever hit anything but a draw or fade and usually their normal shot only has a few yards of movement. 

 

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Here's my thing with this. I'd hazard most golfers, even serious ones, have a 20+ yard gap between say a hybrid, long iron or a fairway wood and their longest fairway wood. I'd also guess most people have a 30 yard gap from their longest wood to their driver.

I've seen more than a few YouTube golf pros making videos out there with a system for hitting shots with their wedges, whether its half swing, 3/4 swing, full swing with this club goes this far, or the clocking system where a 10 to 2 swing goes this far.

Point being, they seem to have a system for hitting exact yardages in 5 yard increments with their wedges, but no one does this with the longest clubs in their bag, where their gaps are at their largest.

We're generally more comfortable manipulating wedges than fairway woods, so I guess my question is, maybe we should consider having our largest gaps with our wedges?

Of course, beyond the longest wood and the driver, I do think 30 yards is too much of a gap. But I do think any reasonably skilled golfer could get by quite comfortably with 20 yard gaps between their wedges.


The point of the differences of 4*-5* between clubs is to create gaps, usually from 12-15 yards. If one has a 30 yard gap, it’s not about “choking-down” or hitting 3/4 shots, it’s that there is a full-club gap in there that has to be filled. No “serious”’golfer is going to leave a 30 yard gap, and that doesn’t matter if it’s at the top of the bag, or the bottom. I had this EXACT gap of thirty yards between my 45* Hot Metal Pro PW and my 50* Edel wedge.... The PW, simply, went too far.



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Here's my thing with this. I'd hazard most golfers, even serious ones, have a 20+ yard gap between say a hybrid, long iron or a fairway wood and their longest fairway wood. I'd also guess most people have a 30 yard gap from their longest wood to their driver.

I've seen more than a few YouTube golf pros making videos out there with a system for hitting shots with their wedges, whether its half swing, 3/4 swing, full swing with this club goes this far, or the clocking system where a 10 to 2 swing goes this far.

Point being, they seem to have a system for hitting exact yardages in 5 yard increments with their wedges, but no one does this with the longest clubs in their bag, where their gaps are at their largest.

We're generally more comfortable manipulating wedges than fairway woods, so I guess my question is, maybe we should consider having our largest gaps with our wedges?

Of course, beyond the longest wood and the driver, I do think 30 yards is too much of a gap. But I do think any reasonably skilled golfer could get by quite comfortably with 20 yard gaps between their wedges.




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Could, sure, but the whole point in the argument is that there shouldn’t....


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1 hour ago, FrogginBullfish said:

Here's my thing with this. I'd hazard most golfers, even serious ones, have a 20+ yard gap between say a hybrid, long iron or a fairway wood and their longest fairway wood. I'd also guess most people have a 30 yard gap from their longest wood to their driver.

I've seen more than a few YouTube golf pros making videos out there with a system for hitting shots with their wedges, whether its half swing, 3/4 swing, full swing with this club goes this far, or the clocking system where a 10 to 2 swing goes this far.

Point being, they seem to have a system for hitting exact yardages in 5 yard increments with their wedges, but no one does this with the longest clubs in their bag, where their gaps are at their largest.

We're generally more comfortable manipulating wedges than fairway woods, so I guess my question is, maybe we should consider having our largest gaps with our wedges?

Of course, beyond the longest wood and the driver, I do think 30 yards is too much of a gap. But I do think any reasonably skilled golfer could get by quite comfortably with 20 yard gaps between their wedges.
 

 


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I have no idea nor do I care what the gap is between my fw and my driver. If I’m hitting my fw off the tee I’m focusing on accuracy more than distance or trying to avoid running out of fairway and into a hazard. I do know my gaps from fw down thru wedges.

its quite possible that 20 yard gaps can be overcome by better players and I bet if you go back thru WITB of pros there’s going to several with a pw and 2 other wedges. 
 

Imo a lot of it comes down to what a player looks for in gapping and where in the bag they cut off full swings 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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Hybrids have also eaten into the number of irons in the bag.

Most golfers should not have an iron that is over 38 inches and under 24 loft. That hasn't changed ... It's just that the iron that fits the above boundary now has a different number on it.

I often play with people that barely touch their 5 iron down. They sit in their bag and they grab the trusty hybrid.

They would do better with a chipper over a 4 iron!!

That is not marketing's fault ... and it something that has existed FOR EVER!! It just used to be players carrying around 2 irons they could not hit and should not have in the bag.


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Wow golf for a weekend and you miss a lot of great conversation. Well I think this thread made a few loops but I definitely think everyone is in agreement play what fits you best.

This weekend on a 160 yrd par 3 I played a 7i in my r11, 6i in MP-33, and 8i in my Dad's i700. They were each about 4* different in loft so I took this as an interesting experiment. They all were probably pretty compatible lofts all flew slightly different, different trajectory, different decent angles, different feel, different forgiveness. I felt like I hit them all fairly solid maybe caught the i700 thin but had r11 and MP-33 on the green with reasonable putts, and the i700 was pulled and just off the back.

Every one of those clubs is a good club that delivers what they are designed for.
Marketing may have changed the number on the bottom but it doesn't really matter.

I do believe gaps can form when not properly fit and knowing your distance are always crucial... If you care to figure out your distances.


Using MyGolfSpy mobile app

Driver:  Ben Hogan GS53
3W:  Callaway Big Bertha Steelhead 2
2i: Maltby KE4 FDI 
4-PW:  Maltby TS-1 - C-Taper 120g 
50º: Maltby TSW

56º:  Cleveland RTX-2 
60º: Maltby Tour Grind MG
Putter:  Odyssey White Hot RX 2-ball

Ball: Snell MTB X
Other: Arccos (first year lets see how it goes)
Handicap: 5.9  -  Best Score: 73 (1 over) Bryan Park - Players Course, Greensboro NC -2020

2020 MGS Forum Tester - Ben Hogan GS53 Driver

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