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LeftyRM7

Shot tracking a 20 handicap

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90 is my best score, so that’s my goal, get there consistently. By the numbers, I don’t have to hit a single green to get there without putting pressure on my short game. Decent tee shot, reasonable approach close to the green, chip it onto the green and 2 putt. Simple and realistic for my handicap. Then with my putting average(1.7) and up/down percentage(31%) that could take me down to mid 80s on a good day.


So this is you goal, but what is your strategy? You say decent tee shot and reasonable approach but that really doesn’t mean anything. There was a strategy laid out earlier in this thread which I believe said to take 6 iron off the tee on par 4s and 5w on par 5; club to get to about 65 yards; pitch to middle of green; 2 putt. Follow that strategy and you hit you goal. You have already shown that basically 2 putting from the middle is realistic; throw in the occasional 1 putt and you beat you goal.
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Just now, cnosil said:

 


So this is you goal, but what is your strategy? You say decent tee shot and reasonable approach but that really doesn’t mean anything. There was a strategy laid out earlier in this thread which I believe said to take 6 iron off the tee on par 4s and 5w on par 5; club to get to about 65 yards; pitch to middle of green; 2 putt. Follow that strategy and you hit you goal. You have already shown that basically 2 putting from the middle is realistic; throw in the occasional 1 putt and you beat you goal.

 

Bingo. 

A goal without a plan is simply a dream. 

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So this is you goal, but what is your strategy? You say decent tee shot and reasonable approach but that really doesn’t mean anything. There was a strategy laid out earlier in this thread which I believe said to take 6 iron off the tee on par 4s and 5w on par 5; club to get to about 65 yards; pitch to middle of green; 2 putt. Follow that strategy and you hit you goal. You have already shown that basically 2 putting from the middle is realistic; throw in the occasional 1 putt and you beat you goal.


I see stuff like that all the time but I disagree completely with the idea. I hit longest club off the tee that doesn’t get me in trouble. I don’t see how adding strokes to your strategy will take strokes off your score. That’s just adding more shots I have to execute. I mean a poor drive and a layup is no different than 2 iron shots. At least the driver gives me a chance to get a wedge in my hand and hit the green in regulation.




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I see stuff like that all the time but I disagree completely with the idea. I hit longest club off the tee that doesn’t get me in trouble. I don’t see how adding strokes to your strategy will take strokes off your score. That’s just adding more shots I have to execute. I mean a poor drive and a layup is no different than 2 iron shots. At least the driver gives me a chance to get a wedge in my hand and hit the green in regulation.


It is fine to disagree, but you said want to shoot 90 consistently and that is an effective way to accomplish that goal that was provided by a golf coach and instructor.

Not sure I follow how we are adding strokes by following that strategy. You said you only hit 2 greens a round. The defined strategy translates to on the green in no worse than 3 shots (4 on par 5s)and 2 putts. Average 5 on all the holes and you score 90

Maybe it isn’t clear where you are losing stroke. You hit a club off the tee that doesn’t get you into trouble, you say you chip from off the green well, and you can 2 putt from the middle of the green. Are your approach shots that bad? Poor ball striking? Basically why do you fail to get on the green in no worse than one stroke over regulation.

Not sure what else you are looking for.
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33 minutes ago, LeftyRM7 said:

 


I see stuff like that all the time but I disagree completely with the idea. I hit longest club off the tee that doesn’t get me in trouble. I don’t see how adding strokes to your strategy will take strokes off your score. That’s just adding more shots I have to execute. I mean a poor drive and a layup is no different than 2 iron shots. At least the driver gives me a chance to get a wedge in my hand and hit the green in regulation.




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I am failing to understand what your goal is. There have been many tried and true options presented to you and you have disagreed or poked holes in every one. We all know what the definition of insanity is. 

My suggestion would be to take some of the advise presented and apply it to your game. It has been proven to work. It is not an overnight fix and will take a larger sample size to see improvement but it will work in the long run. 

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2 hours ago, LeftyRM7 said:

 


Not quite. GIR is the furthest thing from my mind. Again, I get it for better players it is a trend for better scoring, not disputing that. GIR is a byproduct of hitting better shots, not a realistic strategy for me. Think of it this way, would you tell a 20 handicap they need to make more birdies to offset the doubles/triples and score better? Absolutely not, but in a roundabout way, that’s what you’re saying. Hitting greens and giving yourself a chance with the putter...sounds like birdies to me. Kind of putting the cart before the horse.

90 is my best score, so that’s my goal, get there consistently. By the numbers, I don’t have to hit a single green to get there without putting pressure on my short game. Decent tee shot, reasonable approach close to the green, chip it onto the green and 2 putt. Simple and realistic for my handicap. Then with my putting average(1.7) and up/down percentage(31%) that could take me down to mid 80s on a good day. That would be overall 10 strokes better than where I’m at now.

I guess what I’m saying is it’s more about limiting mistakes, especially triples, and being more consistent, and the rest of it will come in time.


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For a 20 handicap that is hitting GIRs.  GIR is a skill set based on handicap.  A GIR for you on a par 4 is the third shot.  It is a strategy that continually avoids trouble and plays to a reasonable level of skill.  Limiting mistakes is that game of golf.  Limiting mistakes creates opportunities for you to make bogey or better.  

 

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It sounds like my comment was misunderstood. I didn't intend for the "strategy" to be hit more GIRs, which I agree is abstract. However, GIR is the statistic most closely correlated to overall score unless you are an outlier who is around 50% GIR with a 20 cap and have an exceptionally poor short game which I have never seen. Obviously you can't take a golf lesson and tell the instructor you "want to work on your GIRs". 

The OP presented Shot Scope stats in post #1 and asked which statistic looked to be the weakest. GIR clearly stuck out and you could drill down into specifics by seeing a scoring average of +1.4 for par 4/5 compared to +1 on par 3. What is the difference? Multiple full swings on par 4/5 and the potential to hit more balls OB using longer clubs. 

The ensuing debate on long putts being worse than chipping really got away from this core issue. 

GIR will have the most impact on improving your score unless you are close to or at 50% already. You then have to self diagnose what is keeping you from achieving GIRs. That could be penalties off the tee, lack of distance, poor contact and control of approach shots or more likely - a mix of these factors and probably some course management mistakes.

In my opinion, if you are basing your target score off bogey golf (which is also my target on whether I judge the round as good or bad) and believe you need 0 GIR to achieve that score then you are setting yourself up for difficulty and failure most often as it assumes no 3 putts and 1 chip per hole. The basic premise of golf is to allow for 2 putts per hole to achieve par after a GIR. You are playing a different game if you have no expectation of advancing the ball to the distance of the green (in regulation # of strokes) and are playing the wrong tees for your ability level.

This is like when my buddies as a group of 15-25 caps want to play a set of tees at 6700 yards to avoid "hitting wedges into every green" and then struggle to break 90 (or sometimes 100 lol) when you could play 6000-6300 and have a chance to break 80 if you play well. I know which is more enjoyable for me...

 

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For a 20 handicap that is hitting GIRs.  GIR is a skill set based on handicap.  A GIR for you on a par 4 is the third shot.  It is a strategy that continually avoids trouble and plays to a reasonable level of skill.  Limiting mistakes is that game of golf.  Limiting mistakes creates opportunities for you to make bogey or better.  
 


Honestly I’ve never heard that before. It makes a lot of sense though. My GIRs just went way up lol


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It sounds like my comment was misunderstood. I didn't intend for the "strategy" to be hit more GIRs, which I agree is abstract. However, GIR is the statistic most closely correlated to overall score unless you are an outlier who is around 50% GIR with a 20 cap and have an exceptionally poor short game which I have never seen. Obviously you can't take a golf lesson and tell the instructor you "want to work on your GIRs". 
The OP presented Shot Scope stats in post #1 and asked which statistic looked to be the weakest. GIR clearly stuck out and you could drill down into specifics by seeing a scoring average of +1.4 for par 4/5 compared to +1 on par 3. What is the difference? Multiple full swings on par 4/5 and the potential to hit more balls OB using longer clubs. 
The ensuing debate on long putts being worse than chipping really got away from this core issue. 
GIR will have the most impact on improving your score unless you are close to or at 50% already. You then have to self diagnose what is keeping you from achieving GIRs. That could be penalties off the tee, lack of distance, poor contact and control of approach shots or more likely - a mix of these factors and probably some course management mistakes.
In my opinion, if you are basing your target score off bogey golf (which is also my target on whether I judge the round as good or bad) and believe you need 0 GIR to achieve that score then you are setting yourself up for difficulty and failure most often as it assumes no 3 putts and 1 chip per hole. The basic premise of golf is to allow for 2 putts per hole to achieve par after a GIR. You are playing a different game if you have no expectation of advancing the ball to the distance of the green (in regulation # of strokes) and are playing the wrong tees for your ability level.
This is like when my buddies as a group of 15-25 caps want to play a set of tees at 6700 yards to avoid "hitting wedges into every green" and then struggle to break 90 (or sometimes 100 lol) when you could play 6000-6300 and have a chance to break 80 if you play well. I know which is more enjoyable for me...
 


I agree, I have every intention of hitting the green but my skill level limits that and that’s why my thought process on strokes accounts for that. I guess strategy may be the wrong word. Either way, to me it just simplifies how to get where I want to be. It’s reasonable for me at my handicap to hit a tee shot in play and give myself a shot at the green, hit an approach, at least close to the green, chip on, then two putt. I can do that when I strike the ball reasonably. So I’ll keep on working on my full swing and ball striking, until I get there. Self diagnosis currently shows an inability to tie my whole game together. Always seems to be a group of clubs I’m struggling with in a round. Changes from round to round, sometimes within a round. Actually started the thread Short vs. Long Game about that.

I find it interesting that some feel I’m setting myself up for failure not expecting to hit GIRs while others suggest strategies that give me 0 chance of GIRs.
I’m interested if I’m the only one assuming GIR regardless of handicap...that would explain some of the confusion.



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16 minutes ago, LeftyRM7 said:



I find it interesting that some feel I’m setting myself up for failure not expecting to hit GIRs while others suggest strategies that give me 0 chance of GIRs.
I’m interested if I’m the only one assuming GIR regardless of handicap...that would explain some of the confusion.

 

 

I am confused about what you are looking for.  You asked about stats which points to GIR being your weakness.  GIR has a strong correlation to scoring ability so you have to figure out what is preventing you from hitting the GIR.  increasing GIR will be one of the quickest ways to lower your score.  You then said you really wanted to regularly shoot 90 with the change to score better.  A strategy was provided to help you do that which involved in getting the ball to the middle of the green in 1 over regulation and then 2 putting.  

 Based on your knowledge of your game,  why do you think you miss greens?

16 minutes ago, LeftyRM7 said:



So I’ll keep on working on my full swing and ball striking, until I get there. Self diagnosis currently shows an inability to tie my whole game together. Always seems to be a group of clubs I’m struggling with in a round. Changes from round to round, sometimes within a round. Actually started the thread Short vs. Long Game about that.
 

 

We all struggle with putting our game together for a complete round or from hole to hole.  What does struggle mean?  Direction control,  distance control,  fat/thin?

 

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We all struggle with putting our game together for a complete round or from hole to hole.  What does struggle mean?  Direction control,  distance control,  fat/thin?
 


As far as the strategy, the only difference from mine is that I’d be hitting iron-iron as apposed to wood-wedge, assuming good strikes. Wedges are usually my best clubs, irons usually my worst, Woods fall somewhere in between. I feel like the chance of losing a tee shot or two a round with my woods is worth the distance. I don’t strike my irons as well as my woods on average and I’d have to hit them twice. I feel like my length is one of my advantages and I’d be taking that away. I’d like to test the idea just to see my results, haven’t played a round without woods in about a year.

The struggle ultimately comes down to strike. I’ve fought fat mostly, usually toe strikes. I struggle with face control but that’s gotten much better since I started playing a draw. I figured out that for whatever reason, I always start the ball at or left of target. That makes it hard to play a fade because it usually moves away from target. My left to right dispersion is much better with a draw. But some days I draw and some days I fade. Usually after a few holes I have to make adjustments based on my strike and shape that day.


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On 12/11/2019 at 9:16 PM, LeftyRM7 said:

 


As far as the strategy, the only difference from mine is that I’d be hitting iron-iron as apposed to wood-wedge, assuming good strikes. Wedges are usually my best clubs, irons usually my worst, Woods fall somewhere in between. I feel like the chance of losing a tee shot or two a round with my woods is worth the distance. I don’t strike my irons as well as my woods on average and I’d have to hit them twice. I feel like my length is one of my advantages and I’d be taking that away. I’d like to test the idea just to see my results, haven’t played a round without woods in about a year.

The struggle ultimately comes down to strike. I’ve fought fat mostly, usually toe strikes. I struggle with face control but that’s gotten much better since I started playing a draw. I figured out that for whatever reason, I always start the ball at or left of target. That makes it hard to play a fade because it usually moves away from target. My left to right dispersion is much better with a draw. But some days I draw and some days I fade. Usually after a few holes I have to make adjustments based on my strike and shape that day.


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I'll admit it; I'm still stumped here.  And having played for 35 years and caddied summers for 9, I've seen lots of golfers and lots of rounds of golf.  

If irons are your weak point, then let's say you're going to have trouble with the four par 3's you play in a round.  How bad are they?  Can you get the ball into a position where you can get your next shot onto the green and two-putt for a bogey?  1 over regulation is a GIR for you if you're trying to shoot around 90.  So you're starting out at 4 over the scorecard par, but even par for you.

What's happening on the next 14 holes?  If you can get off the tee well enough to have wedge in your hand 7 of those 14 holes, and you're pretty good with wedges, then you should hit at least 3 of those 7 greens.  That should lead to at least 2 scorecard pars and a scorecard bogey (we'll allow you a 3 putt on one of those holes).  And you should be close enough to the green to chip on and 2 putt the other four holes for four more scorecard bogeys.  So you're now at 9 over the scorecard par for 11 holes, 2 under your personal par.  That leaves 7 holes to play.  You could make 2 scorecard doubles and 5 scorecard bogeys and still shoot your personal par of 90.

I guess one other question is - are you putting too much pressure on yourself?  Do you blow up when you get close to your target score?  Dealing with pressure is something that most of us are not great at, but you need to put yourself in those situations over and over again to get used to it.  Ideally when you practice as well as when you play.

 

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On 12/8/2019 at 9:05 AM, edteergolf said:

I'm a huge fan of ANOVA as it provides a simple view into your game and all the data you could ever want to see.

@edteergolf - I'm certainly not opposed to ANOVA.  Is the Starter package enough?  Or would you recommend going to the Pro package?  I'm not looking to get out on tour; I just want to maximize the game I have.

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