New Golf Handicap system

[TR1PTIK]

9 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

people have been doing this all over the world for a long long time, and don't have a problem understanding when to pick up.  We'll figure it out.  How long that will take, I can't be sure

I think this a pretty sensible take on how it will play out. Or it could go about as well as converting the US to metric lol. Kidding aside, I’m sure it will be less of an issue after we all get out and start to see how it works on the course.

Edited January 6, 2020 by TR1PTIK

[Mr. 82]

3 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I apologize if that seemed like flaming, but I'd rather talk about real stuff.  To suggest that lots of players will take lots longer because they won't know when to stop strikes me as excessively alarmist  I have no doubt that some, maybe many, players will be a little confused at first.  For those, I'd suggest that they take one more stroke than they used to on par-5 holes, and one fewer on par-3 holes, and they'll be close.  But as I said, people have been doing this all over the world for a long long time, and don't have a problem understanding when to pick up.  We'll figure it out.  How long that will take, I can't be sure.

Honestly, I'm probably exaggerating, with the net double bogey thing, but evaluating my own home course for it, the following is in play for me now, with a 7 course handicap:

Holes 1, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 13, 15, 16, & 17 - double bogey max.

Holes 2, 3, 4, 9, 12, 14, 18 - triple bogey max

Again, just my own example, but I had to refer to my club's scorecard to get this info, based on hole handicap for my course handicap.  Maybe it's just me, but this is VERY confusing, especially for anyone that plays multiple courses or a different course all the time.  And in my case, I don't even typically look at a scorecard for any golf course, because I just pull up the GPS on my Garmin on my wrist and keep score on it.

With all that said, the amount of times per round, even in a monthly period where I will ever worry about max score on a hole is very few.  That 10 I shot last Friday was so rare that I honestly can't even remember the last time I had a 8 or higher on a hole.  But again, I'm a 7 handicap, and I am sure golfers with a 10 handicap or more are going to have to refer to this more times than not to get it right.  But of course, the guy who is an 18 course handicap is all set and won't have to think about a thing.

[DaveP043]

4 minutes ago, GSwag said:

Honestly, I'm probably exaggerating, with the net double bogey thing, but evaluating my own home course for it, the following is in play for me now, with a 7 course handicap:

Holes 1, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 13, 15, 16, & 17 - double bogey max.

Holes 2, 3, 4, 9, 12, 14, 18 - triple bogey max

Again, just my own example, but I had to refer to my club's scorecard to get this info, based on hole handicap for my course handicap.  Maybe it's just me, but this is VERY confusing, especially for anyone that plays multiple courses or a different course all the time.  And in my case, I don't even typically look at a scorecard for any golf course, because I just pull up the GPS on my Garmin on my wrist and keep score on it.

With all that said, the amount of times per round, even in a monthly period where I will ever worry about max score on a hole is very few.  That 10 I shot last Friday was so rare that I honestly can't even remember the last time I had a 8 or higher on a hole.  But again, I'm a 7 handicap, and I am sure golfers with a 10 handicap or more are going to have to refer to this more times than not to get it right.  But of course, the guy who is an 18 course handicap is all set and won't have to think about a thing.

Now I'll go out on a limb, and suggest that you're probably something of an exception, that most players look at the scorecard every time they play.  Certainly lots of us who play (net) match play are very comfortable looking at a scorecard to see where strokes fall.  But again, if you have a general idea, you can get close.  Posting hole-by-hole will be really easy (I've tried it without hitting the final "Post" button), and if players use it, they'll see pretty quickly how the Net Double limit works.

[Mr. 82]

I just checked the mobile GHIN app and it's now working for posting scores from your mobile device.  Hole by hole scoring probably won't be available completely until February, per the FSGA.

[DaveP043]

6 minutes ago, GSwag said:

I just checked the mobile GHIN app and it's now working for posting scores from your mobile device.  Hole by hole scoring probably won't be available completely until February, per the FSGA.

I haven't heard a timeline for Virginia, but we can't do hole by hole yet.  North Carolina can, but the holes come up in a screwy order, there's still some work for the CGA to do.

[mr.hicksta]

Yeah HSGA sent out an email saying to enter total score for the time being. I'm not particularly worried about it since I track all my stats using Decade, but it will be a nice feature to have once they get the kinks worked out. 

As far as some of the criticism of the new handicap system goes, is it because it's oversimplified? It seems like it was a move to appease the more casual golfer while those who are competing might be negatively affected by the change. Is that accurate? Or did I miss something? 

[DaveP043]

12 minutes ago, mr.hicksta said:

As far as some of the criticism of the new handicap system goes, is it because it's oversimplified? It seems like it was a move to appease the more casual golfer while those who are competing might be negatively affected by the change. Is that accurate? Or did I miss something? 

Actually, the biggest criticisms I've heard are that the new maximum hole score, Net Double Bogey, is TOO complicated.  The increase in the maximum handicap to 54, and the decrease in the number of scores for an initial handicap, 3 x 18 holes, both seem intended to draw in more beginning and casual golfers.  The rest just seem like a bunch of compromises between the 6 systems that previously existed.

[LeftyHawk]

In trying to wrap my head around this "new" Handicap system, one thing I cant figure out is if the golf course that I'm a member at is not a USGA member and doesn't appear on their list of courses, is my score there acceptable? Or do scores I want to post have to be played only on USGA courses on the list?

This is my first venture in trying to establish a handicap, outside of the league I play in anyhow.

Thanks, Chris

[Mr. 82]

8 hours ago, LeftyHawk said:

In trying to wrap my head around this "new" Handicap system, one thing I cant figure out is if the golf course that I'm a member at is not a USGA member and doesn't appear on their list of courses, is my score there acceptable? Or do scores I want to post have to be played only on USGA courses on the list?

This is my first venture in trying to establish a handicap, outside of the league I play in anyhow.

Thanks, Chris

Well, normally I'd have you go to https://ncrdb.usga.org to see if your course is listed there, but the site is down for maintenance at the moment.  If your course is listed there then you can post a score.  If not, I have no clue.

Beyond that, since you are in Michigan, you can get a handicap through the Golf Association of Michigan.  Their sign up page is at https://www.gam.org/?Membership&view=join

[TR1PTIK]

8 hours ago, LeftyHawk said:

In trying to wrap my head around this "new" Handicap system, one thing I cant figure out is if the golf course that I'm a member at is not a USGA member and doesn't appear on their list of courses, is my score there acceptable? Or do scores I want to post have to be played only on USGA courses on the list?

This is my first venture in trying to establish a handicap, outside of the league I play in anyhow.

Thanks, Chris

As @GSwag stated, the National course database is a good place to start. Basically if your course doesn’t show up, then it’s not rated. This isn’t a completely uncommon thing, but it does mean rounds played at that course are ineligible for handicapping purposes unless someone here like @DaveP043 knows something I don’t (which is possible because I don’t know much by comparison lol).

[DaveP043]

9 hours ago, LeftyHawk said:

In trying to wrap my head around this "new" Handicap system, one thing I cant figure out is if the golf course that I'm a member at is not a USGA member and doesn't appear on their list of courses, is my score there acceptable? Or do scores I want to post have to be played only on USGA courses on the list?

This is my first venture in trying to establish a handicap, outside of the league I play in anyhow.

Thanks, Chris

@GSwag and @TR1PTIK have correctly pointed you to the national course rating database.  If the course has not been rated, you can't post scores.  Have you asked the course management about it?  

[LeftyHawk]

I'll have to wait until spring to find out, I'm pretty sure they're a USGA member. Thanks for the info guys, it helps me to understand this thing.

 

Chris

[mr.hicksta]

Question for you all that use the GHIN app. If you enter the scores hole by hole (score only, not with stats), does the app automatically calculate your hole max based on course handicap? I entered my first hole by hole score, but it didn't seem like it adhered to the net double max part. 

[Mr. 82]

4 hours ago, mr.hicksta said:

Question for you all that use the GHIN app. If you enter the scores hole by hole (score only, not with stats), does the app automatically calculate your hole max based on course handicap? I entered my first hole by hole score, but it didn't seem like it adhered to the net double max part. 

Yes, it automatically adjusts to max net double bogey.  Using my Friday round  as a good example, I had 12 pars, 4 bogeys and 2 triple bogeys  .  One one of the triple bogeys it adjusted my score to a double bogey, and the other triple remained as a triple, as it was within my handicap for that hole on the course (7 in this case).  So yes, the system is definitely working for the net double bogey max.

I am also going to keep entering hole by hole scores, because with the daily revisions of your index, your course handicap can change from day to day.  Also using my index as an example, I was a 6.5 index last week, and a 7 course handicap.  However, I went to a 6.2 index earlier this week, which actually made me a 6 course handicap.  I have a 6.4 index as of today, which put me back at a 7 handicap.

So I would suggest to everyone to enter your hole by hole stats for rounds with triple bogeys in them, because you'll honestly be guessing as to your course handicap, unless your index never changes that is.

 

4 hours ago, mr.hicksta said:

Question for you all that use the GHIN app. If you enter the scores hole by hole (score only, not with stats), does the app automatically calculate your hole max based on course handicap? I entered my first hole by hole score, but it didn't seem like it adhered to the net double max part. 

 

[Mr. 82]

An update of sorts to this thread.  After a month into this new World Handicap system, I am finding a significant fluctuation in my handicap index from round to round.  I started the year as a 7.3 index, and as soon as I posted a few scores after January 6th I went to a 6.5 index.  Seemingly everytime I enter a round my index changes.  I posted one of my lowest scores of the new year yesterday, and my index went down to a 5.6.  So within the span of a month my index has dropped 1.7 points already.

I would also further encourage everyone to enter hole by hole scores, because your course handicap will change when your index changes.  As you can read from my previous posts, I started the year with a 7 course handicap at my home course, and with my current index it's now a 5, so any triple bogeys I would post would possibly be adjusted, but with so much fluctuation in my index it's borderline next to impossible to keep up with holes I need to count handicap strokes on or not.  I just think it's best to let the GHIN website take care of the score adjustments.

One side note on handicaps, using my own home club as an example.  We have a dogfight on Saturdays and we use a modified stableford points system, where once you get beyond bogey you can just pick up, because there are no points for double bogey or worse.  A lot of the guys I play with simply just pick up, rather than playing out to at least triple bogey.  They are posting scores that could possibly affect their handicap to where it's more of a vanity handicap, then an actual reflection of a legitimate handicap.  But come tournament time this will only hurt their chances when you have to putt everything out.  I haven't said anything to anyone at my club about this, as I figure it's not really my place to say anything.  I might say something if it were the opposite and they were sandbagging, but that's definitely not the case.

[Golfspy_CG2]

On 1/7/2020 at 12:26 PM, DaveP043 said:

Actually, the biggest criticisms I've heard are that the new maximum hole score, Net Double Bogey, is TOO complicated.  The increase in the maximum handicap to 54, and the decrease in the number of scores for an initial handicap, 3 x 18 holes, both seem intended to draw in more beginning and casual golfers.  The rest just seem like a bunch of compromises between the 6 systems that previously existed.

This!!

And for those who haven't read the entire thread and are confused by Net Double Bogey.  It's very simple.   Your max score for any hole is. 

Holes Par + 2 + any strokes you get. 

So If you are a 12 cap and playing a par 4 hole that is the no 10 handicap your max score is 

7- Par + 2 + your stroke 

If your playing a par 3 that is the 17 handicap your max score is 

5 - Par plus double bogey. 

 

[CarlH]

Sorry, but if the concept of net double bogey is confusing, perhaps math is not your forte' and you should let your partners keep score!     

 

[Mr. 82]

4 hours ago, CarlH said:

Sorry, but if the concept of net double bogey is confusing, perhaps math is not your forte' and you should let your partners keep score!     

 

It's not confusing, but the holes where the max score is triple bogey versus holes where your max score is double bogey is dependent on your course handicap.  And like I said above, my course handicap has changed by 2 strokes already in one month, which means that at the start of the year I had to factor the lowest 7 handicapped holes on my home course for triple bogey max.  Now it's down to the lowest 5 handicapped holes.

But whatever dude.  I guess you are smarter than me.  That ain't saying much honestly, as I guess I can't compete with your intellectual fortitude.

[Alf. S]

14 hours ago, Mr. 82 said:

An update of sorts to this thread.  After a month into this new World Handicap system, I am finding a significant fluctuation in my handicap index from round to round.  I started the year as a 7.3 index, and as soon as I posted a few scores after January 6th I went to a 6.5 index.  Seemingly everytime I enter a round my index changes.  I posted one of my lowest scores of the new year yesterday, and my index went down to a 5.6.  So within the span of a month my index has dropped 1.7 points already.

I would also further encourage everyone to enter hole by hole scores, because your course handicap will change when your index changes.  As you can read from my previous posts, I started the year with a 7 course handicap at my home course, and with my current index it's now a 5, so any triple bogeys I would post would possibly be adjusted, but with so much fluctuation in my index it's borderline next to impossible to keep up with holes I need to count handicap strokes on or not.  I just think it's best to let the GHIN website take care of the score adjustments.

One side note on handicaps, using my own home club as an example.  We have a dogfight on Saturdays and we use a modified stableford points system, where once you get beyond bogey you can just pick up, because there are no points for double bogey or worse.  A lot of the guys I play with simply just pick up, rather than playing out to at least triple bogey.  They are posting scores that could possibly affect their handicap to where it's more of a vanity handicap, then an actual reflection of a legitimate handicap.  But come tournament time this will only hurt their chances when you have to putt everything out.  I haven't said anything to anyone at my club about this, as I figure it's not really my place to say anything.  I might say something if it were the opposite and they were sandbagging, but that's definitely not the case.

For the guys that pick up it should take that hole as a net double bogey for handicap purposes.

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

7 hours ago, Mr. 82 said:

It's not confusing, but the holes where the max score is triple bogey versus holes where your max score is double bogey is dependent on your course handicap.  And like I said above, my course handicap has changed by 2 strokes already in one month, which means that at the start of the year I had to factor the lowest 7 handicapped holes on my home course for triple bogey max.  Now it's down to the lowest 5 handicapped holes.

But whatever dude.  I guess you are smarter than me.  That ain't saying much honestly, as I guess I can't compete with your intellectual fortitude.

Anyone whom paid attention would know that hdcp were going to be calculated daily vice every two weeks. Also the playability course conditions could impact that as well once scores for that day on that course were factored in. 
 

It takes all of about 2 mins to figure out what holes one gets a stroke on after checking heir course hdcp for the day. Those who don’t want to use the formula to figure out course hdcp there is a course hdcp calculator on usga website.

those who don’t make triple bogeys or a lot of them really don’t have much to worry about. 

 

[Mr. 82]

2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Also the playability course conditions could impact that as well once scores for that day on that course were factored in. 

I have yet to see this happen on any round I have posted.

[gobama84]

2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Those who don’t want to use the formula to figure out course hdcp there is a course hdcp calculator on usga website.

Doesn't include all courses I play.  I've checked already. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

11 minutes ago, Mr. 82 said:

I have yet to see this happen on any round I have posted.

That just means there hasn’t been any abnormal scores/weather conditions on the course(s) you played.

3 minutes ago, gobama84 said:

Doesn't include all courses I play.  I've checked already. 

That’s the downfall of this part of the year but from what I’ve read it shouldn’t be that way all year. 

[DaveP043]

56 minutes ago, Mr. 82 said:

I have yet to see this happen on any round I have posted.

From what we were told at the VSGA Handicap Seminar, the PCC is expected to effect something like 10% to 15% of the scores.  The PCC is based only on scores posted on the day of play, so if players aren't yet in the habit of posting immediately, there may not be enough scores posted.  

48 minutes ago, gobama84 said:

Doesn't include all courses I play.  I've checked already. 

If you use the GHIN app, and you can post scores to a specific course and tee (instead of manually entering Slope and CR), you should also be able to use GHIN to calculate your Course Handicap on those courses.  Or if you know all the required data (CR, Slope, Par, and Handicap Index), you can use https://www.usga.org/course-handicap-calculator.html.  What are the courses you're having problems with?  Has the course data not been uploaded to GHIN by your local Association?