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New Golf Handicap system


tony@CIC

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Below is the link for a white paper from Golf Genius on the new worldwide handicap system that will be effective beginning January 1st. There are some pretty interesting changes, including the actual calculation , weather affecting slope ratings, etc. 

http://productionggs.s3.amazonaws.com/WHS-whitepaper.pdf

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33 minutes ago, tony@CIC said:

Below is the link for a white paper from Golf Genius on the new worldwide handicap system that will be effective beginning January 1st. There are some pretty interesting changes, including the actual calculation , weather affecting slope ratings, etc. 

http://productionggs.s3.amazonaws.com/WHS-whitepaper.pdf

That has been available for a while, and is a really good description of the various existing systems, and of the significant changes that will occur.  Still to be answered, at least for those of us in the USGA areas, are questions about what types of scores will be acceptable, whether we will still have to estimate the "most likely score", any requirement for attestation, etc.  I'm hoping to attend one of the Handicap Rule seminars to be held in my area to learn more.

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:Sub70: 5-wood

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Reston, Virginia

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37 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

That has been available for a while, and is a really good description of the various existing systems, and of the significant changes that will occur.  Still to be answered, at least for those of us in the USGA areas, are questions about what types of scores will be acceptable, whether we will still have to estimate the "most likely score", any requirement for attestation, etc.  I'm hoping to attend one of the Handicap Rule seminars to be held in my area to learn more.

As the weather cools down here and the wind really kicks up, it'll be interesting to see any changes to the slope rating at our course. 

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:taylormade-small:SIM 2 D Max with Fujikura Air Speeder Shaft 

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2020 Official Teste:SuperSpeed: Beginning Driver Speed  - 78

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20 minutes ago, tony@CIC said:

As the weather cools down here and the wind really kicks up, it'll be interesting to see any changes to the slope rating at our course. 

Shouldn't be any, unless the course has changed.  As I understand it, the current USGA model will be used worldwide for Course Rating and Slope.  I know that gets tweaked occasionally, but US courses don't need to be re-rated to comply with the WHS.

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Reston, Virginia

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7 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Shouldn't be any, unless the course has changed.  As I understand it, the current USGA model will be used worldwide for Course Rating and Slope.  I know that gets tweaked occasionally, but US courses don't need to be re-rated to comply with the WHS.

What I was referring to is the change in playing conditions - what they refer to as PCC  or Playing Conditions Calculation rather than a change in the slope rating . Here's a quote from an article from Golf.com:

What happens when I shoot 90 in good weather and 92 in bad weather?

The latter might actually improve your index more than the former. Because of the new Playing Conditions Calculation (PCC), scores posted at the same course on the same day will help determine if the course played more difficult (or easier) than normal, due to conditions or setup. Handicap differentials from all abilities of players will work together to create this calculation, and your handicap could be impacted because of it. “You look at the field for all scores posted on that day, regardless of what tee they played,” Edmondson said. “We know from our player equations from what we’ve modeled in the Handicap Index what are the expected scores for every golfer. When you get so many golfers that are higher or lower — outside of that [score] funnel — you would have an adjustment. This course played one stroke harder [than normal]. This course played two strokes harder. This course played one stroke easier.”

According to the USGA, this adjustment will not happen often, but it’s another reason why it’s important to post your score on the day you played. Scores posted retroactively will not contribute to the PCC, though they will be impacted by it. You’re helping the USGA (and golfers everywhere) by feeding more data into the system.

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:ping-small:  410  Hybrids 22*, 26*

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20 minutes ago, tony@CIC said:

What I was referring to is the change in playing conditions - what they refer to as PCC  or Playing Conditions Calculation rather than a change in the slope rating . Here's a quote from an article from Golf.com:

What happens when I shoot 90 in good weather and 92 in bad weather?

The latter might actually improve your index more than the former. Because of the new Playing Conditions Calculation (PCC), scores posted at the same course on the same day will help determine if the course played more difficult (or easier) than normal, due to conditions or setup. Handicap differentials from all abilities of players will work together to create this calculation, and your handicap could be impacted because of it. “You look at the field for all scores posted on that day, regardless of what tee they played,” Edmondson said. “We know from our player equations from what we’ve modeled in the Handicap Index what are the expected scores for every golfer. When you get so many golfers that are higher or lower — outside of that [score] funnel — you would have an adjustment. This course played one stroke harder [than normal]. This course played two strokes harder. This course played one stroke easier.”

According to the USGA, this adjustment will not happen often, but it’s another reason why it’s important to post your score on the day you played. Scores posted retroactively will not contribute to the PCC, though they will be impacted by it. You’re helping the USGA (and golfers everywhere) by feeding more data into the system.

I have been wondering how they are going to determine how much more difficult a course will play.  Golf in my area is pretty tricky.  Not much rain, but lots of wind... sometimes.  It can be dead calm in the morning, then in the afternoon the wind blows 20-30 mph.  Likewise it can blow all night long and through the morning, then die out at noon.  I guess it's just the "luck of draw", and it will even out throughout the year.

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55 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

it will be based on scores posted for that day, as compared to standardized expectations. 

I spoke with my pro just the other day about this subject.  He pulled out some paper work and read where it would require at least 8 people to post it as playing more (or less) difficult than normal.

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Everything is too difficult these days. This is why I don't bother keeping an "official" handicap. I use a free HC system. I enter my scores and it calculates my HC. I don't give two shits how accurate or inaccurate it is. It gives me an approximate  HC. I'm sitting at a 9+ right now. Pretty much where I figured. I don't compete and I don't plan to. I just play golf and have a good time.

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I'm all for tracking handicap over all rounds- I believe the US has done it for years- much better idea.

I remember playing with a 4 h/cap guy from Oregon who hit the ball like a pro as his handicap was a true reflection of his ability.

I also play with low single fig guys here who hardly play in a medal and are lucky to break 85 EVERY time they play.

I'm not looking forward though, to playing a matchplay against a guy with a 54 h/cap.

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1 hour ago, perseveringgolfer said:

I'm all for tracking handicap over all rounds- I believe the US has done it for years- much better idea.

I remember playing with a 4 h/cap guy from Oregon who hit the ball like a pro as his handicap was a true reflection of his ability.

I also play with low single fig guys here who hardly play in a medal and are lucky to break 85 EVERY time they play.

I'm not looking forward though, to playing a matchplay against a guy with a 54 h/cap.

A couple of weeks back I played a match where I was giving 26 strokes or so, so my opponent was a 31 or 32 handicap.  There was a reason that my opponent got all those strokes, he really wasn't very good.  I think I won 4 and 3.  I imagine the same will hold true for those 54-handicappers.

:titleist-small: Irons Titleist T200, AMT Red stiff

:callaway-small:Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:mizuno-small: T22 54 and 58 wedges

:mizuno-small: 7-wood

:Sub70: 5-wood

 B60 G5i putter

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Reston, Virginia

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15 hours ago, silver & black said:

Everything is too difficult these days. This is why I don't bother keeping an "official" handicap. I use a free HC system. I enter my scores and it calculates my HC. I don't give two shits how accurate or inaccurate it is. It gives me an approximate  HC. I'm sitting at a 9+ right now. Pretty much where I figured. I don't compete and I don't plan to. I just play golf and have a good time.

Its really not difficult at all, enter your score and the system calculates.  I'd bet that the free systems will find a way to get the daily correction factor from a USGA compliant site and apply it to their own users' scores.  But I agree, if you're not going to compete, there's no reason to pay for an official handicap.

:titleist-small: Irons Titleist T200, AMT Red stiff

:callaway-small:Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:mizuno-small: T22 54 and 58 wedges

:mizuno-small: 7-wood

:Sub70: 5-wood

 B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

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44 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I'd bet that the free systems will find a way to get the daily correction factor from a USGA compliant site and apply it to their own users' scores.

My biggest concern with the playing conditions correction factor is that, while my home course is USGA rated, there is no handicapping service provided and I doubt more than eight scores a month are posted from it given the clientele? I'm almost positive I would never get any correction if I posted to an official service. 

Unofficial WHS Handicap: 7.5 / Anti-Cap: 13.0 (Last Updated Feb. 19, 2024)

Driver: callaway_logo.png.3dd18aa65544000dd0ea3901697a8261.png Callaway Paradym TD (10.5°, -1/N), 45.75", Fujikura Motore X F1 6X | Fitting Post
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29 minutes ago, edingc said:

My biggest concern with the playing conditions correction factor is that, while my home course is USGA rated, there is no handicapping service provided and I doubt more than eight scores a month are posted from it given the clientele? I'm almost positive I would never get any correction if I posted to an official service. 

I've been away from public courses for a while now, but I remember seeing handicap posting available at most of the public courses back in the day.  Is that not an option these days?  Anyway, from everything I read, the Playing Condition Calculation is likely to be used relatively rarely, and even then will generally amount to no more than 2 strokes.

:titleist-small: Irons Titleist T200, AMT Red stiff

:callaway-small:Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:mizuno-small: T22 54 and 58 wedges

:mizuno-small: 7-wood

:Sub70: 5-wood

 B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

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8 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I've been away from public courses for a while now, but I remember seeing handicap posting available at most of the public courses back in the day.  Is that not an option these days?  Anyway, from everything I read, the Playing Condition Calculation is likely to be used relatively rarely, and even then will generally amount to no more than 2 strokes.

No, your perception is still correct. I think most of the nicer courses in my area offer a handicap service, either standalone or as part of a membership package. My particular course doesn't, being focused mostly on selling lots of Bloody Marys, it attracts a different client base than some of the other courses in the area. Doesn't make it less "nice," but the people who come out to play here aren't generally ones to be concerned with their handicap.

It just was something I thought of as I played on a few not so great days this year and wondered how that calculation would/would not have been made for my course.

Unofficial WHS Handicap: 7.5 / Anti-Cap: 13.0 (Last Updated Feb. 19, 2024)

Driver: callaway_logo.png.3dd18aa65544000dd0ea3901697a8261.png Callaway Paradym TD (10.5°, -1/N), 45.75", Fujikura Motore X F1 6X | Fitting Post
3 Wood: 
cobra_logo.png.190908c8b4518eec87c087429e4343ee.png Cobra RadSpeed Big Tour (14.5°), 43", Fujikura Motore X F1 7X
20° Hybrid: PXG_Logo.png.8401024d1fb8aec46f0e790c1aa5b80c.png PXG 0211 (2020 Model), 40.25", Mitsubishi Tensei AV RAW White 90X
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cobra_logo.png.190908c8b4518eec87c087429e4343ee.png Cobra KING Utility (2020 Model), 38.5", Aerotech SteelFiber i110cw Stiff
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logo-Ben-Hogan-large.png.98d743ae5487285c6406a1e30a0a63b5.png Ben Hogan PTx Pro, 37" 7 Iron, Aerotech SteelFiber i125cw Stiff | Club Champion Fitting
50°, 54°, 58°:
231036130_Edel_Golf_Logo_v2_grandecopy.png.13cc76b963f8dd59f06d04b1e8df2827.png Edel SMS, V Grind, Nippon Modus 125 Wedge| Official Review Thread
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image.png.49fcc172a1ed0010d930fbe1c5dc8b79.png L.A.B. Golf DF 2.1, 36", 68°, Black with Custom Sightlines, BGT Stability Tour, L.A.B. Press II 3° | Unofficial Review
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stargrip.png.4285948f41f1409613266e7803f0bbaa.png Star Sidewinder, Undersized with Custom Tape Build-Up
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1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

I've been away from public courses for a while now, but I remember seeing handicap posting available at most of the public courses back in the day.  Is that not an option these days?  Anyway, from everything I read, the Playing Condition Calculation is likely to be used relatively rarely, and even then will generally amount to no more than 2 strokes.

Yesterday would have been a perfect day to test PCC. It was blowing about 30 with higher gusts and on our Links style course with no protection from the wind it was a real challenge. On one par 3 where I normally use a 52* wedge I ended up using a 9i and barely made it onto the green.  

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:taylormade-small:SIM 2 D Max with Fujikura Air Speeder Shaft 

Cobra  Radspeed 3W/RIptide Shaft
:ping-small:  410  Hybrids 22*, 26*

Cobra Speed Zone 6-GP/Recoil ESX 460 F3 Shafts 

:titelist-small: SM7 54* Wedge

:ping-small: Glide 3.0  60* Wedge

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:918457628_PrecisionPro:NX9-HD

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2020 Official Teste:SuperSpeed: Beginning Driver Speed  - 78

2019 Official Tester :ping-small:  410 Driver

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I’ve been reading up on WHS a bit lately and I’m interested to see how it works out. Some of the changes make a lot of sense, but others are a bit odd. But overall I think simplifying the system is a good thing and I’m eager to switch over in January!

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 10/23/2019 at 8:09 AM, DaveP043 said:

A couple of weeks back I played a match where I was giving 26 strokes or so, so my opponent was a 31 or 32 handicap.  There was a reason that my opponent got all those strokes, he really wasn't very good.  I think I won 4 and 3.  I imagine the same will hold true for those 54-handicappers.

I'm generalizing here, but generally anyone with a handicap up over 30 does not have much competition experience, so I don't like their chances under pressure no matter how many shots the lower handicapper is giving away.  Thinking about this is giving me flashbacks of carrying double for C-Flight matches in the club championship when I was a first-year caddy.  No amount of money was worth having to witness what I saw out there.  

What's scary is playing a 20 that used to be a 10 back in the day that still plays in the seniors game three times a week.  They'll net par your brains in.  That's playing with my dad.  Now I just give him the six dollars we play for right up front.

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No worries @DaveP043. Mine was more of a rhetorical question anyway. Just seems when implementing a system leaving grey areas is not usually the best course. 

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13 hours ago, THEZIPR23 said:

No worries @DaveP043. Mine was more of a rhetorical question anyway. Just seems when implementing a system leaving grey areas is not usually the best course. 

I think when you're estimating your most likely score, there's no way to avoid a gray area.  The newer (draft) rules provide substantially more guidance than the old rules did, so to me its an improvement.  

:titleist-small: Irons Titleist T200, AMT Red stiff

:callaway-small:Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:mizuno-small: T22 54 and 58 wedges

:mizuno-small: 7-wood

:Sub70: 5-wood

 B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

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On 10/23/2019 at 1:00 PM, DaveP043 said:

I've been away from public courses for a while now, but I remember seeing handicap posting available at most of the public courses back in the day.  Is that not an option these days?  Anyway, from everything I read, the Playing Condition Calculation is likely to be used relatively rarely, and even then will generally amount to no more than 2 strokes.

Local city owned muni here in Tallahassee (Hilaman) does not offer any handicap service.  I had a membership there for a year, and never a mention of handicap with them.  They also own Jake Gaither, which is a 9-hole muni I played a lot, and no handicap there either.

Golf Club of Quincy, which is about 45 minutes from here, has no handicap option either.  Tired Creek in Cairo, GA offers no handicap service.  Country Oaks in Thomasville, GA, offers no handicap service.  St James Bay, in Carrabelle, FL, which is about 90 minutes from Tallahassee, offers no handicap service.

Frankly, in these parts, there are a LOT more courses that don't offer handicap services then do.  Heck, Killearn CC, which is private I don't even think offers handicap services, as they are borderline bankrupt and bluntly put, out of cash.

I honestly think it's just a regional thing, as golf in these parts is well below college football, hunting and fishing on the pecking order of leisure activities for all the red necks in these parts.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Just bumping this up.  I'll be attending a VSGA Handicap Seminar next Tuesday (10 Dec) and would be happy to try to get answers to any questions you all have.  At this stage, the Rules have been released for USGA players

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/Handicap/Rules-of-Handicapping_USGA_Final.pdf

so lots of answers can be found there.  My questions at this stage will center around the transition to the new system, since here in Virginia we post year round.  The Carolina Golf Association has more information on their website, and they talk about several days during which the system will be down, as the new computer services are put into effect, and I assume that general procedure will apply everywhere.  I'll also be interested in seeing what materials will be available to help us help the membership to make the transition.

Anyway, feel free to post your questions, I'll do what I can to get answers at the seminar.

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23 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Just bumping this up.  I'll be attending a VSGA Handicap Seminar next Tuesday (10 Dec) and would be happy to try to get answers to any questions you all have.  At this stage, the Rules have been released for USGA players

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/Handicap/Rules-of-Handicapping_USGA_Final.pdf

so lots of answers can be found there.  My questions at this stage will center around the transition to the new system, since here in Virginia we post year round.  The Carolina Golf Association has more information on their website, and they talk about several days during which the system will be down, as the new computer services are put into effect, and I assume that general procedure will apply everywhere.  I'll also be interested in seeing what materials will be available to help us help the membership to make the transition.

Anyway, feel free to post your questions, I'll do what I can to get answers at the seminar.

Dave, I'd be interested on their thoughts about the playing conditions impact on indexes. What affects the change, how often do they anticipate the changes will be made or is this more of a seasonal change because of temp, etc. 

 

Thx for carrying this forward. 

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1 hour ago, tony@CIC said:

Dave, I'd be interested on their thoughts about the playing conditions impact on indexes. What affects the change, how often do they anticipate the changes will be made or is this more of a seasonal change because of temp, etc. 

Thx for carrying this forward. 

From everything I've read so far, they expect the PCC to be applied pretty rarely. The PCC will be not be based on anyone's evaluation of the wind, the temperature, the frozen nature of the greens or sogginess of the fairways, only on the scores actually posted on each day.  Although they've not made it public, I'm guessing that the algorithm that's been developed will be pretty conservative.  I do anticipate a seasonal correlation, especially here in northern Virginia where we play and post year round unless there's snow on the ground.  But I'll be listening, ask a question or two if needed, and report back.

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3 hours ago, tony@CIC said:

Dave, I'd be interested on their thoughts about the playing conditions impact on indexes. What affects the change, how often do they anticipate the changes will be made or is this more of a seasonal change because of temp, etc. 

 

Thx for carrying this forward. 

This is what I'm most-interested in as well. We only have one season in Hawaii, but we hardly have any days where the wind is not present. You hear the pros talk about trying to keep a flatter ball flight when they come to play Kapalua in the ToC, or at the Sony, so I'm curious to see if/how windy days affect things.

 

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

From everything I've read so far, they expect the PCC to be applied pretty rarely. The PCC will be not be based on anyone's evaluation of the wind, the temperature, the frozen nature of the greens or sogginess of the fairways, only on the scores actually posted on each day.  Although they've not made it public, I'm guessing that the algorithm that's been developed will be pretty conservative.  I do anticipate a seasonal correlation, especially here in northern Virginia where we play and post year round unless there's snow on the ground.  But I'll be listening, ask a question or two if needed, and report back.

That makes sense about the algorithm. Maybe it just looks at all of the scores posted for the day, and if it notices they're higher due to weather conditions, it factors that in? Pretty cool!

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17 minutes ago, yungkory said:

 

That makes sense about the algorithm. Maybe it just looks at all of the scores posted for the day, and if it notices they're higher due to weather conditions, it factors that in? Pretty cool!

This is my understanding of it.  It will be transparent to the end user and be done based on scores posted that day.   It isn't anything that the player has to worry about when posting.

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23 minutes ago, yungkory said:

This is what I'm most-interested in as well. We only have one season in Hawaii, but we hardly have any days where the wind is not present. You hear the pros talk about trying to keep a flatter ball flight when they come to play Kapalua in the ToC, or at the Sony, so I'm curious to see if/how windy days affect things.

That makes sense about the algorithm. Maybe it just looks at all of the scores posted for the day, and if it notices they're higher due to weather conditions, it factors that in? Pretty cool!

Scores might be higher for any number of reasons, maybe due to course set-up, tough pins on tournament days, its not only weather that could influence the PCC.  For you in Hawaii, the wind is theoretically taken into account to some extent in the course rating process, I think.  But your handicap are established based on many of your rounds being played in the wind, so scoring on normal windy says shouldn't be abnormal, there wouldn't be any reason to apply a correction.

Another minor issue, the correction will be based only on scores that are posted on the day of play.  If you forget and don't post it until the day after, your score won't be included in the evaluation, but it WILL be subject to the correction, if any.  so post your score, right away!

Edited by DaveP043

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Back from the Handicap Seminar, so I'll update things a little.  The one question asked in this thread concerned the PCC(Playing Conditions Calculation).  At the seminar it was confirmed that it will be based on scores posted for that day of play at that golf course, by players whose Handicap Index is 36 or lower.  It will only be based on scores posted before midnight, local time, so if you wait a day or two, your score won't influence the PCC.  The PCC will apply to all scores posted for that day, including for players with >36 indices, and scores entered after the initial day.  They expect it to apply maybe 10% to 15% of the time.  The PCC will always be a while number, from -1 (for "easy" days) to +3 for the toughest conditions.  A minimum of 8 scores must be entered within the reporting period to even trigger the PCC.  When you look at your record on GHIN, there will be an indication that the PCC was applied to a score.

For those whose local associations use GHIN, the system will be down from January 1 to Jan 5.  On Jan 6, your new Handicap Index will be based on the new calculation method, but none of the "controls" will apply.  By controls I mean the soft and hard cap on upward movement, or corrections for exceptional scores.

I can't say I was surprised by anything I heard.

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49 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Back from the Handicap Seminar, so I'll update things a little.  The one question asked in this thread concerned the PCC(Playing Conditions Calculation).  At the seminar it was confirmed that it will be based on scores posted for that day of play at that golf course, by players whose Handicap Index is 36 or lower.  It will only be based on scores posted before midnight, local time, so if you wait a day or two, your score won't influence the PCC.  The PCC will apply to all scores posted for that day, including for players with >36 indices, and scores entered after the initial day.  They expect it to apply maybe 10% to 15% of the time.  The PCC will always be a while number, from -1 (for "easy" days) to +3 for the toughest conditions.  A minimum of 8 scores must be entered within the reporting period to even trigger the PCC.  When you look at your record on GHIN, there will be an indication that the PCC was applied to a score.

For those whose local associations use GHIN, the system will be down from January 1 to Jan 5.  On Jan 6, your new Handicap Index will be based on the new calculation method, but none of the "controls" will apply.  By controls I mean the soft and hard cap on upward movement, or corrections for exceptional scores.

I can't say I was surprised by anything I heard.

Thanks for posting that info for us!

I doubt the PCC will ever come into effect for me, I honestly don't know if people post scores when they play -- most are casual and don't really care, especially at the munis.

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