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New Golf Handicap system

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13 hours ago, THEZIPR23 said:

No worries @DaveP043. Mine was more of a rhetorical question anyway. Just seems when implementing a system leaving grey areas is not usually the best course. 

I think when you're estimating your most likely score, there's no way to avoid a gray area.  The newer (draft) rules provide substantially more guidance than the old rules did, so to me its an improvement.  

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On 10/23/2019 at 1:00 PM, DaveP043 said:

I've been away from public courses for a while now, but I remember seeing handicap posting available at most of the public courses back in the day.  Is that not an option these days?  Anyway, from everything I read, the Playing Condition Calculation is likely to be used relatively rarely, and even then will generally amount to no more than 2 strokes.

Local city owned muni here in Tallahassee (Hilaman) does not offer any handicap service.  I had a membership there for a year, and never a mention of handicap with them.  They also own Jake Gaither, which is a 9-hole muni I played a lot, and no handicap there either.

Golf Club of Quincy, which is about 45 minutes from here, has no handicap option either.  Tired Creek in Cairo, GA offers no handicap service.  Country Oaks in Thomasville, GA, offers no handicap service.  St James Bay, in Carrabelle, FL, which is about 90 minutes from Tallahassee, offers no handicap service.

Frankly, in these parts, there are a LOT more courses that don't offer handicap services then do.  Heck, Killearn CC, which is private I don't even think offers handicap services, as they are borderline bankrupt and bluntly put, out of cash.

I honestly think it's just a regional thing, as golf in these parts is well below college football, hunting and fishing on the pecking order of leisure activities for all the red necks in these parts.

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Just bumping this up.  I'll be attending a VSGA Handicap Seminar next Tuesday (10 Dec) and would be happy to try to get answers to any questions you all have.  At this stage, the Rules have been released for USGA players

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/Handicap/Rules-of-Handicapping_USGA_Final.pdf

so lots of answers can be found there.  My questions at this stage will center around the transition to the new system, since here in Virginia we post year round.  The Carolina Golf Association has more information on their website, and they talk about several days during which the system will be down, as the new computer services are put into effect, and I assume that general procedure will apply everywhere.  I'll also be interested in seeing what materials will be available to help us help the membership to make the transition.

Anyway, feel free to post your questions, I'll do what I can to get answers at the seminar.

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23 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Just bumping this up.  I'll be attending a VSGA Handicap Seminar next Tuesday (10 Dec) and would be happy to try to get answers to any questions you all have.  At this stage, the Rules have been released for USGA players

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/Handicap/Rules-of-Handicapping_USGA_Final.pdf

so lots of answers can be found there.  My questions at this stage will center around the transition to the new system, since here in Virginia we post year round.  The Carolina Golf Association has more information on their website, and they talk about several days during which the system will be down, as the new computer services are put into effect, and I assume that general procedure will apply everywhere.  I'll also be interested in seeing what materials will be available to help us help the membership to make the transition.

Anyway, feel free to post your questions, I'll do what I can to get answers at the seminar.

Dave, I'd be interested on their thoughts about the playing conditions impact on indexes. What affects the change, how often do they anticipate the changes will be made or is this more of a seasonal change because of temp, etc. 

 

Thx for carrying this forward. 

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1 hour ago, tony@CIC said:

Dave, I'd be interested on their thoughts about the playing conditions impact on indexes. What affects the change, how often do they anticipate the changes will be made or is this more of a seasonal change because of temp, etc. 

Thx for carrying this forward. 

From everything I've read so far, they expect the PCC to be applied pretty rarely. The PCC will be not be based on anyone's evaluation of the wind, the temperature, the frozen nature of the greens or sogginess of the fairways, only on the scores actually posted on each day.  Although they've not made it public, I'm guessing that the algorithm that's been developed will be pretty conservative.  I do anticipate a seasonal correlation, especially here in northern Virginia where we play and post year round unless there's snow on the ground.  But I'll be listening, ask a question or two if needed, and report back.

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3 hours ago, tony@CIC said:

Dave, I'd be interested on their thoughts about the playing conditions impact on indexes. What affects the change, how often do they anticipate the changes will be made or is this more of a seasonal change because of temp, etc. 

 

Thx for carrying this forward. 

This is what I'm most-interested in as well. We only have one season in Hawaii, but we hardly have any days where the wind is not present. You hear the pros talk about trying to keep a flatter ball flight when they come to play Kapalua in the ToC, or at the Sony, so I'm curious to see if/how windy days affect things.

 

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

From everything I've read so far, they expect the PCC to be applied pretty rarely. The PCC will be not be based on anyone's evaluation of the wind, the temperature, the frozen nature of the greens or sogginess of the fairways, only on the scores actually posted on each day.  Although they've not made it public, I'm guessing that the algorithm that's been developed will be pretty conservative.  I do anticipate a seasonal correlation, especially here in northern Virginia where we play and post year round unless there's snow on the ground.  But I'll be listening, ask a question or two if needed, and report back.

That makes sense about the algorithm. Maybe it just looks at all of the scores posted for the day, and if it notices they're higher due to weather conditions, it factors that in? Pretty cool!

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17 minutes ago, yungkory said:

 

That makes sense about the algorithm. Maybe it just looks at all of the scores posted for the day, and if it notices they're higher due to weather conditions, it factors that in? Pretty cool!

This is my understanding of it.  It will be transparent to the end user and be done based on scores posted that day.   It isn't anything that the player has to worry about when posting.

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23 minutes ago, yungkory said:

This is what I'm most-interested in as well. We only have one season in Hawaii, but we hardly have any days where the wind is not present. You hear the pros talk about trying to keep a flatter ball flight when they come to play Kapalua in the ToC, or at the Sony, so I'm curious to see if/how windy days affect things.

That makes sense about the algorithm. Maybe it just looks at all of the scores posted for the day, and if it notices they're higher due to weather conditions, it factors that in? Pretty cool!

Scores might be higher for any number of reasons, maybe due to course set-up, tough pins on tournament days, its not only weather that could influence the PCC.  For you in Hawaii, the wind is theoretically taken into account to some extent in the course rating process, I think.  But your handicap are established based on many of your rounds being played in the wind, so scoring on normal windy says shouldn't be abnormal, there wouldn't be any reason to apply a correction.

Another minor issue, the correction will be based only on scores that are posted on the day of play.  If you forget and don't post it until the day after, your score won't be included in the evaluation, but it WILL be subject to the correction, if any.  so post your score, right away!

Edited by DaveP043
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Back from the Handicap Seminar, so I'll update things a little.  The one question asked in this thread concerned the PCC(Playing Conditions Calculation).  At the seminar it was confirmed that it will be based on scores posted for that day of play at that golf course, by players whose Handicap Index is 36 or lower.  It will only be based on scores posted before midnight, local time, so if you wait a day or two, your score won't influence the PCC.  The PCC will apply to all scores posted for that day, including for players with >36 indices, and scores entered after the initial day.  They expect it to apply maybe 10% to 15% of the time.  The PCC will always be a while number, from -1 (for "easy" days) to +3 for the toughest conditions.  A minimum of 8 scores must be entered within the reporting period to even trigger the PCC.  When you look at your record on GHIN, there will be an indication that the PCC was applied to a score.

For those whose local associations use GHIN, the system will be down from January 1 to Jan 5.  On Jan 6, your new Handicap Index will be based on the new calculation method, but none of the "controls" will apply.  By controls I mean the soft and hard cap on upward movement, or corrections for exceptional scores.

I can't say I was surprised by anything I heard.

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49 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Back from the Handicap Seminar, so I'll update things a little.  The one question asked in this thread concerned the PCC(Playing Conditions Calculation).  At the seminar it was confirmed that it will be based on scores posted for that day of play at that golf course, by players whose Handicap Index is 36 or lower.  It will only be based on scores posted before midnight, local time, so if you wait a day or two, your score won't influence the PCC.  The PCC will apply to all scores posted for that day, including for players with >36 indices, and scores entered after the initial day.  They expect it to apply maybe 10% to 15% of the time.  The PCC will always be a while number, from -1 (for "easy" days) to +3 for the toughest conditions.  A minimum of 8 scores must be entered within the reporting period to even trigger the PCC.  When you look at your record on GHIN, there will be an indication that the PCC was applied to a score.

For those whose local associations use GHIN, the system will be down from January 1 to Jan 5.  On Jan 6, your new Handicap Index will be based on the new calculation method, but none of the "controls" will apply.  By controls I mean the soft and hard cap on upward movement, or corrections for exceptional scores.

I can't say I was surprised by anything I heard.

Thanks for posting that info for us!

I doubt the PCC will ever come into effect for me, I honestly don't know if people post scores when they play -- most are casual and don't really care, especially at the munis.

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1 minute ago, yungkory said:

Thanks for posting that info for us!

I doubt the PCC will ever come into effect for me, I honestly don't know if people post scores when they play -- most are casual and don't really care, especially at the munis.

We'll see, I sat at a table today next to a pro from a local muni.  When they have men's league days, those scores will be posted, and the PCC could come into effect.  I don't know how many scores get posted from casual play, but it wouldn't surprise me to find a lot more than 8 posted for many days of the year.  One thing not mentioned, this evaluates ALL scores posted for that course, including by non-members.  Many public-course players will have a home course, but play a big variety of nearby tracks.  If I go to California and play a public course there, my score will be included in the PCC evaluation at that course, and my score will be revised based on the PCC.  Same if I go to Scotland, those scores will be included in the PCC evaluation as long as I enter them within the right time frame.

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We'll see, I sat at a table today next to a pro from a local muni.  When they have men's league days, those scores will be posted, and the PCC could come into effect.  I don't know how many scores get posted from casual play, but it wouldn't surprise me to find a lot more than 8 posted for many days of the year.  One thing not mentioned, this evaluates ALL scores posted for that course, including by non-members.  Many public-course players will have a home course, but play a big variety of nearby tracks.  If I go to California and play a public course there, my score will be included in the PCC evaluation at that course, and my score will be revised based on the PCC.  Same if I go to Scotland, those scores will be included in the PCC evaluation as long as I enter them within the right time frame.

Thanks for updating us. While I thought there could be an adjustment for those tough weather days I never thought that there might be an adjustment for 'easy days'. With PCC they've just added a high level of complexity especially for those of us that play in leagues (stroke play). It'll be interesting to see if the PCC portion of the new handicap lasts.


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10 hours ago, tony@CIC said:

Thanks for updating us. While I thought there could be an adjustment for those tough weather days I never thought that there might be an adjustment for 'easy days'. With PCC they've just added a high level of complexity especially for those of us that play in leagues (stroke play). It'll be interesting to see if the PCC portion of the new handicap lasts.

The idea of PCC has lasted for decades in many parts of the world, I see no reason it won't last in the worldwide system.  Its called "Competition Scratch Score in the CONGU system used in the UK.  And remember, this isn't something that's complex for any of us golfers, this will happen automatically at midnight each night, its built into the computer calculations, just like the overnight re-calculation of your index.  All you have to do is enter your scores in the normal manner.

The one big change for USGA people will be the adoption of Net Double Bogey as your maximum hole score.  But the new GHIN will enable hole-by-hole posting, and any adjustments to hole scores will be made automatically.

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57 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

.  But the new GHIN will enable hole-by-hole posting, and any adjustments to hole scores will be made automatically.

@DaveP043 Thx again for the update. It'll certainly be interesting to see how all of this rolls out. 

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4 hours ago, tony@CIC said:

@DaveP043 Thx again for the update. It'll certainly be interesting to see how all of this rolls out. 

It won't be long before some of the actual experiences start getting posted.  GHIN users will be able (actually required) to download the new app after Jan 6.  Even though we have year-round posting in Virginia, I normally don't play a lot during winter months, but I'll be in Palm Springs on Jan 11 for a week, so I'll get some pretty early experiences posting scores and seeing the reports available in the new app.  

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So I get an email today from the FSGA regarding the WHS and just updates on what they are doing.  Here are several things that stood out to me that I hadn't previously thought too much of.

  • ESC.  Previous GHIN system, as a single digit capper I simply picked up after double bogey, because with ESC that was the highest score I could post.  With the WHS I need to know my course handicap, and also look at the scorecard and determine which holes I receive handicapped strokes on.  Using my own handicap as an example, I would receive 8 handicapped strokes on my home course, which is where I need to look at the scorecard and take the 1-8 handicapped holes and factor this into the new system for max score.  In other words, if I have a horrible hole on the 3 handicap hole, I don't pick up after double bogey, but need to record a triple bogey, because the system factors in "NET DOUBLE BOGEY."  Are you confused yet, because I can already envision the chaos that will ensue with this madness.  Guys at my club aren't gonna become math majors with all of this and will just want to play golf.  let the insanity commence.
  • Course handicap determination.  So apparently in the past I could take my GHIN index and punch it in the system to determine course handicap based on slope.  Now it's based on course rating, and the lower the rating, the lower your course handicap will be.  The higher the rating, the higher your course handicap will be.  My home course is a 71.2 rating from the member tees, so I honestly don't even know what my course handicap will be there until this new system is put into place.  Perhaps it is now a 7 course handicap (par is 72), but who knows.

Again, these are two of the most confusing things to me.  And yeah, I'll do the math and figure all of this out initially and be done with it, but for the guy who plays a different course every time, good luck.  You'll need a PhD in golf handicap to figure all of this out every time you tee it up, if you even care.  I can honestly say that most guys are not gonna be bothered with any of this.  I'm anal enough to care, so I'll go through the motions to figure everything out.  But I am guessing that 95% of guys are gonna give this new system the middle finger with all of this convoluted calculations.

Side note, the FSGA also mentioned that they are entering course handicap information for all Florida courses into the system so that players will actually be able to post scores hole by hole, versus entering just the total score.  They said it probably wouldn't be ready until 2/1/20, as they have to enter all courses manually, mostly for the reasons I discussed above, where the max score per hole handicap calculation comes into play.

All in all, what a mess this will be initially.  In 6 months we'll be used to it and all of the hub bub will go away.  But for now, brace yourself for chaos.

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@GSwag, this information has been available for quite some time, but I'm glad that state associations are putting out more notices as the day draws close.  I have just a couple of explanations that might help you understand the reasoning behind some of these changes.

In much of the world, net Stableford scoring is really commonplace.  I'm not sure, but the USGA may have been the only country using ESC in the way we do.  Consequently, it made sense for the USGA folks to move towards the rest of the world.  In net Stableford scoring, a net double is zero points, bogey is 1, par is 2, etc, so utilizing net double as maximum hole score makes a great deal of sense.  As I said, this has been commonplace throughout the world for a long time.  US golfers aren't necessarily less intelligent than our friends internationally, so i know we CAN learn this, but there will definitely be an adjustment period.

The change to your Course Handicap calculation is really in line with the current method (is it the old method yet?) of allocating strokes when players compete against each other from different tees.  But now, instead of this adjustment only happening on tournament days, it will be in place year round.  You'll still be able to "punch your HI into the system" and get your Course Handicap, you'll just need to know a couple more numbers.  Or you'll need to provide the golf course and tee, and the system will supply the right CR, par, and Slope before it spits out your Course Handicap.  There should also be tables of course handicap v. HI for each tee, just as there have been for years.

I know that GHIN will have hole-by-hole entry available on all of its platforms.  I was told that Virginia has been actively updating course information so that HbH will be fairly easy as quickly as possible, but they depend on individual courses to get their information to the state Association.  I anticipate a bit of a shake-down period, whether due to club-related delays, or data entry mistakes, but I believe that will get sorted out pretty quickly.  Once it is, you won't need to know your Course Handicap, you won't need to dot your card and apply net double, you'll just enter your raw hole scores and the system will do the rest.

I guess I have a little more faith in golfers than you do.  I believe that golfers who care about doing things right will figure it out pretty quickly.  The ones who don't care are probably doing things wrong now, and will continue to do things wrong in the future.  

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Hmm here's an interesting piece of info that I wasn't aware of. According to the USGA "the system will account for abnormal playing conditions, limit extreme movement of a Handicap Index and reduce a Handicap Index when an exceptional score is posted" .  I take that to read when you have a blowout round either high or low it won't affect the index. Wonder what the parameters of that are. 

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Just now, tony@CIC said:

Hmm here's an interesting piece of info that I wasn't aware of. According to the USGA "the system will account for abnormal playing conditions, limit extreme movement of a Handicap Index and reduce a Handicap Index when an exceptional score is posted" .  I take that to read when you have a blowout round either high or low it won't affect the index. Wonder what the parameters of that are. 

First, abnormal playing conditions, called the Playing Condition Calculation (PCC).  The system will look at scores posted that day, for play that day.  If at least 8 scores are posted, and they are outside of the expected range, the differentials that day may be increased or decreased.  This will based entirely on scores posted, there are no other subjective evaluations required.  The calculation of the PCC is only based on scores posted on the day of play, but the PCC will apply to all scores posted for that day of play, so be sure to post promptly.  If you play today but post tomorrow, your score will not be included in the evaluation, but will be adjusted if a PCC is appropriate.  We were told at the seminar that the PCC is expected to be used in 10% to 15% of the time.

Second, limits on extreme movement.  The system will look back 12 months, and see your lowest index in that period.  If your handicap rises more than 3 strokes above that low index, further upward movement will be slowed.  Your handicap will not be allowed to increase by more than 5 strokes over 12-month low.

The last bit, if you shoot a score where the differential is 7 strokes below your current Handicap Index, your Index will automatically be reduced by 1 stroke.  If you shoot one that results in a differential 10 strokes below your index, your index will be reduced by 2 strokes.  If you go out next week and shoot another one 7 below your (updated) current index, your index will be reduced by another stroke.

You can read all of this stuff, for us USGA people at least, at:

https://www.usga.org/handicapping/roh/2020-rules-of-handicapping.html

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2 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

First, abnormal playing conditions, called the Playing Condition Calculation (PCC).  The system will look at scores posted that day, for play that day.  If at least 8 scores are posted, and they are outside of the expected range, the differentials that day may be increased or decreased.  This will based entirely on scores posted, there are no other subjective evaluations required.  The calculation of the PCC is only based on scores posted on the day of play, but the PCC will apply to all scores posted for that day of play, so be sure to post promptly.  If you play today but post tomorrow, your score will not be included in the evaluation, but will be adjusted if a PCC is appropriate.  We were told at the seminar that the PCC is expected to be used in 10% to 15% of the time.

Second, limits on extreme movement.  The system will look back 12 months, and see your lowest index in that period.  If your handicap rises more than 3 strokes above that low index, further upward movement will be slowed.  Your handicap will not be allowed to increase by more than 5 strokes over 12-month low.

The last bit, if you shoot a score where the differential is 7 strokes below your current Handicap Index, your Index will automatically be reduced by 1 stroke.  If you shoot one that results in a differential 10 strokes below your index, your index will be reduced by 2 strokes.  If you go out next week and shoot another one 7 below your (updated) current index, your index will be reduced by another stroke.

You can read all of this stuff, for us USGA people at least, at:

https://www.usga.org/handicapping/roh/2020-rules-of-handicapping.html

As usual thx for the additional details Dave. 

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