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Astros and sign-stealing

Stealing signs  

14 members have voted

  1. 1. Which is closest to you take on the allegations about the Astros? (you can choose more than one)

    • Stealing signs is always against the spirit of the game.
      0
    • A runner on second stealing signs is part of baseball; using a camera is not.
      9
    • If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'.
      5
    • I don't think they did what they're accused of doing.
      1
    • It looks like they are guilty.
      3


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What's your guys' takes on the controversy surrounding the Astros and stealing signs?

I come at this as a second-hand Astros fan. The Tigers are my team, but they're terrible, so I've been reduced to merely rooting for Verlander the past few seasons. The evidence that the Astros have been using a camera to steal signs from the catcher, relaying those signs to the dugout, and signaling to their hitters seems pretty strong. The evidence (language alert):

[The video is far more convincing if you're watching on a computer with speakers with a little bass; the bangs aren't clearly audible on tiny phone speakers.]

At the moment, I think it looks likely that they are guilty of what they're being accused of. My opinion is that on-field stealing of signs is a legitimate part of baseball's gamesmanship: I've got no issue with this. Using a camera, though, it totally outside the spirit of the game.

Rewriting history is always a dumb penalty (forfeiting games and such). It might be harsh, but I think I could be convinced that those in management (including coaches) who put this system in place should receive a lifetime ban from the game.

What's your take?

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58 minutes ago, GolfSpy MPR said:

What's your take?

I agree, a runner on base trying to steal signs has been a part of baseball since the dawn of signs.  Use of a camera by one of the teams is cheating.  Its interesting that the Astros have said that they'll investigate themselves.  I'd think that MLB should be the ones to investigate, and the ones to determine what, if any, punishment should be applied.  If MLB really wants this to stop, they may need to suspend some management personnel for a good long time.  I've heard it suggested that MLB could lower the threshhold for the luxury tax for the Astros for a while, potentially costing them 10s of millions, or limiting their payroll significantly.  

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This supposedly happen a full year ago. Listening to the bang, bang it is possible. However, can it be proven where the “bang was coming from? 
also there are players and coaches that watch film and study pitchers and figure out particular pitching sequencing for certain batter. I’ve watched games where guys like Kirk Gibson will call a pitch based on situation, and he wasn't ever wrong. It is possible that someone in the dugout was tracking and watching Pitches, and figured out the tell on The catcher or pitcher. Because of the speed at which the “bang” happened after the sign it is likely video was used, but there are other ways as well. I guess that’s what they  need to figure out. 

Edited by Kor.A.Door

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The thing about stealing signs from the field/dugout is that offense is policed by the other team when caught, as it should be.  What the 'Stros did takes sign stealing to a new level.  So the question arises, what form of sign stealing is okay? 

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Sign stealing from dugout, base paths has been around forever and I don’t get upset over it. What the Astros are alleged to do is a different level. I hope it’s not the case.



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Former baseball player here, ALL sign stealing is part of the game.  Without getting into specifics, there’s extreme levels teams go to to steal signs. The Astros use of technology is the next logical step but I just see it as part of the home field advantage that they’ve got infrastructure in place to do it. 

In the poll, I voted for “if you ain’t cheating you ain’t trying” but I really don’t see it as cheating at all. If teams didn’t want their signs stolen, don’t make them so easy to steal. 
 

Baseball is a funny game with those unwritten rules 🤷🏻‍♂️

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Former baseball player here, ALL sign stealing is part of the game.  Without getting into specifics, there’s extreme levels teams go to to steal signs. The Astros use of technology is the next logical step but I just see it as part of the home field advantage that they’ve got infrastructure in place to do it. 
In the poll, I voted for “if you ain’t cheating you ain’t trying” but I really don’t see it as cheating at all. If teams didn’t want their signs stolen, don’t make them so easy to steal. 
 
Baseball is a funny game with those unwritten rules 🤷🏻‍♂️

Hmmm gotcha. Maybe I got a little PC
We’ll have to see what MLB comes up with.
Good Thread.


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That bang bang is so suspect in the video, I don’t think there’s anyway a noise from a dugout gets captured on a general microphone that is meant for the sounds of the ball park. How do we hear the bang bang but you can’t hear commentary out of the dugout, around the dugout, from on the field, etc.? Yeah, totally bogus.

Now to the question at hand, what should be done? How about exactly the same thing that was done to the New England Patriots when they were using video to steal information leading up to their Super Bowl win. There is precedent set, it’s in major sports, just follow what happened there. Belichick is still coaching, the team is still winning Super Bowls, I say just follow what happened with the NFL.


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2 minutes ago, PMookie said:

That bang bang is so suspect in the video, I don’t think there’s anyway a noise from a dugout gets captured on a general microphone that is meant for the sounds of the ball park. How do we hear the bang bang but you can’t hear commentary out of the dugout, around the dugout, from on the field, etc.? Yeah, totally bogus.

Now to the question at hand, what should be done? How about exactly the same thing that was done to the New England Patriots when they were using video to steal information leading up to their Super Bowl win. There is precedent set, it’s in major sports, just follow what happened there. Belichick is still coaching, the team is still winning Super Bowls, I say just follow what happened with the NFL.


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Yeah but that’s different. The Patriots were stealing practice info. The practice field is supposed to be a safe space. This is in a live game where all bets are off. 

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9 minutes ago, GolfSpy STUDque said:

Former baseball player here, ALL sign stealing is part of the game.  Without getting into specifics, there’s extreme levels teams go to to steal signs. The Astros use of technology is the next logical step but I just see it as part of the home field advantage that they’ve got infrastructure in place to do it. 

In the poll, I voted for “if you ain’t cheating you ain’t trying” but I really don’t see it as cheating at all. If teams didn’t want their signs stolen, don’t make them so easy to steal. 
 

Baseball is a funny game with those unwritten rules 🤷🏻‍♂️

From what I've read, this type of sign stealing is against the written rules, not the unwritten ones, much as the pine tar stuff is, much as throwing spitballs and using other foreign substances is, much as corking bats is.  The difference I see is that only the home team has the advantage, and that the level of effort requires the active participation of some levels of management.  

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13 minutes ago, GolfSpy STUDque said:

Baseball is a funny game with those unwritten rules

The best part of those unwritten rules is the unwritten love that gets applied with hard tags, inside pitches, etc.

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Yeah but that’s different. The Patriots were stealing practice info. The practice field is supposed to be a safe space. This is in a live game where all bets are off. 

Hmm. Video, unwritten rule...
Ok. To each their own.

It’s my way of saying, “Who cares? Move along.”
“Rubbin is racin’!”


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My ex-FIL actually began his MLB career on the mound in Houston, and we had some interesting conversations comparing the way cheating is viewed in professional baseball -vs- professional golf.

His genuine take on the diamond: If you’re not cheating then you’re not trying hard enough for your team. And the only way to be sure you’re trying hard enough is getting caught once in awhile.

But he was also voted the meanest pitcher in the league (3 years in a row) by his peers.

Like it or not, professional sport has become big business, built upon notching wins... any way you can get them. And with the exception of targeted violence, I personally think any justice meted out in these situations really only serves to buoy the false notion that cheating is isolated.

The caveat to all of the aforementioned - I am a lifelong Astros fan 😬

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One other thing not mentioned is that this is an issue for multiple teams according to reports, but they are singling out Houston because of the teams success. Since this is an issue attributed to multiple teams, they need to also name the other teams as well. I am not sure either way on the banging in the video, that can be doctored in a video before sending it in. Since there are a multitude of cameras at the games, and there are some pointed at the dugouts, and someone is banging a wall loud enough for the batter hear it is there video showing a guy banging the wall. That would be difficult to miss in the dugout. 

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28 minutes ago, Kor.A.Door said:

One other thing not mentioned is that this is an issue for multiple teams according to reports, but they are singling out Houston because of the teams success. Since this is an issue attributed to multiple teams, they need to also name the other teams as well. I am not sure either way on the banging in the video, that can be doctored in a video before sending it in. Since there are a multitude of cameras at the games, and there are some pointed at the dugouts, and someone is banging a wall loud enough for the batter hear it is there video showing a guy banging the wall. That would be difficult to miss in the dugout. 

They way I read it, someone was watching the video in the tunnel behind the dugout, and banging a trashcan like a drum.  I don't think a camera is likely to pick that up, but noise being directed out of the tunnel would be focused towards the field.

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22 hours ago, GolfSpy STUDque said:

Former baseball player here, ALL sign stealing is part of the game.  Without getting into specifics, there’s extreme levels teams go to to steal signs. The Astros use of technology is the next logical step but I just see it as part of the home field advantage that they’ve got infrastructure in place to do it. 

In the poll, I voted for “if you ain’t cheating you ain’t trying” but I really don’t see it as cheating at all. If teams didn’t want their signs stolen, don’t make them so easy to steal. 
 

Baseball is a funny game with those unwritten rules 🤷🏻‍♂️

Extremely well said Stud ⚾

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My ex-FIL actually began his MLB career on the mound in Houston, and we had some interesting conversations comparing the way cheating is viewed in professional baseball -vs- professional golf.
His genuine take on the diamond: If you’re not cheating then you’re not trying hard enough for your team. And the only way to be sure you’re trying hard enough is getting caught once in awhile.
But he was also voted the meanest pitcher in the league (3 years in a row) by his peers.
Like it or not, professional sport has become big business, built upon notching wins... any way you can get them. And with the exception of targeted violence, I personally think any justice meted out in these situations really only serves to buoy the false notion that cheating is isolated.
The caveat to all of the aforementioned - I am a lifelong Astros fan

Is his name Al Hrabosky?!


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Is his name Al Hrabosky?!


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Or Sam McDowell!


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2 hours ago, PMookie said:

Is his name Al Hrabosky?!

Negative

2 hours ago, Rickp said:

Or Sam McDowell!

I’ll give you guys a hint - his nickname was “The Texas Tiger”

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I’ll give you guys a hint - his nickname was “The Texas Tiger”

Nolan Ryan?


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