Astros and sign-stealing

[revkev]

I’m in the camp of playing to the edge of the rules - it’s up to the umps to determine what is breaking a rule and what is not, I’m just going to play as hard as I can, run everything out and hope for the best.

 

In regards to this incident I think it’s a stupid unenforceable rule. It’s not quite as dumb as having NFL teams in Possession of footballs and expecting them to not tamper with them or having a multi billion dollar industry without full time professional officials but it’s close.

 

Just know that your signals could be stolen and act accordingly. There are lots of suitable remedies - calling a curve and sticking a 95 mph heater under a few guys chins jumps to mind.

 

 

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[sixcat]

Stealing signs is inherently a part of the game dating back well over 100 years.  I have absolutely no issue with that whatsoever!  What I do have an issue with, is using modern technology to record and study signs in an effort to steal them.

With that said, there isn't one MLB team in existence who isn't using technology to improve play on the field.....including stealing signs.  It's just a matter of getting caught. 

[DaveP043]

My problem isn't with the efforts to steal signs, its with the efforts to unbalance the playing field.  When a home team sets up the video link between the centerfield cam and its own dugout, its trying to create an advantage that the visitors simply cannot have.  If they're willing to beam those same videos into the visitors' clubhouse,  that would seem reasonably fair.  Of course, the pitchers for both teams might have a little issue with that.

[Jmikecpa]

Stealing signs is part of the game and during my high school and college playing days I was pretty darn good at it. Now I didn’t use technology and quite frankly as a hitter I didn’t care to know what was coming. Knowing a pitch is helpful but location is what really matters. From a pitcher’s perspective if I thought someone was onto my catcher I just had them mix up the signs. In college we generally had four sets we could move through and if that didn’t work I would have the catcher call a curve ball and if the hitter guessed on it and they were wrong...it was a heater to the middle of their back.

If the Astros did use a camera then Hinch needs to get booted from the game and picks need to be taken away. They will be the SMU of the MLB if this is in fact proven true.


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[revkev]

My problem isn't with the efforts to steal signs, its with the efforts to unbalance the playing field.  When a home team sets up the video link between the centerfield cam and its own dugout, its trying to create an advantage that the visitors simply cannot have.  If they're willing to beam those same videos into the visitors' clubhouse,  that would seem reasonably fair.  Of course, the pitchers for both teams might have a little issue with that.

You are being consistent and in principle I agree with you - a rule is a rule. This is a written rule. But baseball is not like golf. In golf we are taught to police ourselves so it’s no big deal if the rule is stupid so long as everyone follows it.

In baseball we are taught to push the envelope. If we are called get oh well, if not, great. It’s so easy to fix though - change the rule so that everyone gets the feed or don’t change the rules and if you suspect sign stealing is going on throw at a couple of hitters when they are guessing curve.

It works


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[DaveP043]

35 minutes ago, revkev said:

You are being consistent and in principle I agree with you - a rule is a rule. This is a written rule. But baseball is not like golf. In golf we are taught to police ourselves so it’s no big deal if the rule is stupid so long as everyone follows it.

In baseball we are taught to push the envelope. If we are called get oh well, if not, great. It’s so easy to fix though - change the rule so that everyone gets the feed or don’t change the rules and if you suspect sign stealing is going on throw at a couple of hitters when they are guessing curve.

It works

 

Yeah, I understand that the cultures are different, and like I said, I have no problem as long as each team has the same opportunity to break the rules.  I'm a little hesitant to encourage pitchers to throw fastballs up and in to hitters expecting curves, the game is already dangerous enough.

Interesting to me, I did google baseball sign stealing rules, and came up with this, from February:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/02/20/mlb-aims-crack-down-games-tradition-sign-stealing/

Quote

Teams may not position cameras between the foul poles in the outfield if not for broadcast purposes. Team replay assistants, who help notify managers when to challenge a call on the field, will have access only to the live game broadcast and will be monitored by a security expert. All other TV monitors available to players and coaches, such as screens in the bullpen or clubhouse, will show the live game broadcast on an eight-second delay.

Teams found in violation of the rules could be punished with forfeited draft picks and international spending money.

I know the current "scandal" relates to 2017, and apparently their procedures at that time weren't against these rules, although they did violate the existing rules at that time.

[Jmikecpa]

I wouldn’t go up and in that is dangerous, however middle of the back is fair game.


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[DaveP043]

53 minutes ago, Jmikecpa said:

I wouldn’t go up and in that is dangerous, however middle of the back is fair game.

At 90+ mph, I'd say its dangerous no matter where you were trying to hit the batter.  Besides, how many batters do you think you'd have to plunk before the organization decides to stop using the video?  Remember, after you've loaded the bases, the next guy is going to know what your're planning to throw him.

I know, you can definitely change signs.  The Nationals say they had 5 sets of signs for each pitcher, complex enough that the catchers had to wear "placards" on their arm to keep them all straight.  That seems excessively complicated, and can only serve to make an already slow game even slower. 

[Jmikecpa]

At 90+ mph, I'd say its dangerous no matter where you were trying to hit the batter.  Besides, how many batters do you think you'd have to plunk before the organization decides to stop using the video?  Remember, after you've loaded the bases, the next guy is going to know what your're planning to throw him.
I know, you can definitely change signs.  The Nationals say they had 5 sets of signs for each pitcher, complex enough that the catchers had to wear "placards" on their arm to keep them all straight.  That seems excessively complicated, and can only serve to make an already slow game even slower. 

Generally only takes one to send a message and they get it. 94 mph in the numbers sends a real clear message.

And for clarity I was always a pitcher that hit in the order so I had to reap the benefits of drilling someone. I think I still have lace marks in my back 10 years after I quit playing.


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[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, Jmikecpa said:

Generally only takes one to send a message and they get it. 94 mph in the numbers sends a real clear message.

And for clarity I was always a pitcher that hit in the order so I had to reap the benefits of drilling someone. I think I still have lace marks in my back 10 years after I quit playing.

I know it would send a message to the individual players, but to management?  They're the ones who set up the video feed, who set up the entire system.  A player gets plunked, that's just the cost of doing business.  I think in this circumstance, suspending management personnel for a while (a year or more), and loss of draft picks will do more than a couple of plunked batters could.  This one goes beyond players policing other players.

[GolfSpy MPR]

So the hammer dropped today:

• The manager and GM both suspended for a year
• Team fined $5 million
• Loss of first two round picks the next two seasons

What do you guys think of the punishment? I think I could be convinced of longer suspensions, but otherwise, this seems about right. For my part, I'm glad that MLB didn't go down the path of vacating wins. That approach never made sense to me, because it never means that the other team is credited with those wins. Those games just (apparently) never happened, although all the stats from them did.

[StrokerAce]

18 minutes ago, GolfSpy MPR said:

So the hammer dropped today:

• The manager and GM both suspended for a year
• Team fined $5 million
• Loss of first two round picks the next two seasons

What do you guys think of the punishment? I think I could be convinced of longer suspensions, but otherwise, this seems about right. For my part, I'm glad that MLB didn't go down the path of vacating wins. That approach never made sense to me, because it never means that the other team is credited with those wins. Those games just (apparently) never happened, although all the stats from them did.

1 year seems excessive but understandable.... Integrity of the game is paramount and MLB probably wanted to send a stern message to other teams.

[Rickp]

Thinking it’s a bit much but sends a message.
Now what happens with Cora


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[sixcat]

Red Sox are next on the chopping block!  

[Golfspy_CG2]

Breaking Update.

The Astros owner has just fired both the GM and the Linch.    Guess he didn't want to sit around for a year with two lame ducks!

[StrokerAce]

WHOA!
Hard to blame him though....

Also:
Boston Red Sox manager Alex Cora, who was implicated in the schemes, was not disciplined but is expected to receive a similarly harsh penalty upon the completion of an investigation into illicit use of a video replay room by the 2018 Red Sox. Cora was the Astros' bench coach during the 2017 season.

[Miboy62]

Looks like the Astros are moving on without them already.

Cora’s going to be hit harder, wonder if the Sox will wait around?

[Rickp]

Looks like the Astros are moving on without them already.
Cora’s going to be hit harder, wonder if the Sox will wait around?

Saux won’t wait around they’ll move on. Good part is they have new GM who want there in 2018.


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[Miboy62]

25 minutes ago, Rickp said:

Saux won’t wait around they’ll move on. Good part is they have new GM who want there in 2018.


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I agree, from what i have been reading, Cora might get more then a year.

 

[Rickp]

I agree, from what i have been reading, Cora might get more then a year.
 

New GM has no allegiance to Cora from 2018 WS, if it’s a year plus I believe Saux will look elsewhere.
I still believe Varitek is in the wings.


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[Rickp]

Ron Roenicke (sp) name is out there already.


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[Jmikecpa]

My thoughts are it really does nothing to the organization. They cheated and won a World Series, ditto for the Sox. If they really wanted to hurt them lower the luxury tax for both teams to $100m for 5 years and cut their international signing money in half. That would be the death penalty for both franchises.

If the Sox have any integrity they should cut bait with Cora now just based on these findings.


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[Rickp]

My thoughts are it really does nothing to the organization. They cheated and won a World Series, ditto for the Sox. If they really wanted to hurt them lower the luxury tax for both teams to $100m for 5 years and cut their international signing money in half. That would be the death penalty for both franchises.

If the Sox have any integrity they should cut bait with Cora now just based on these findings.


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The Red Sox “chatter” is he’s “Dead man walking” and Ron Renecke is already lined up. Word is the scheme was Coras brainchild for both Teams.
He gone...


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[sixcat]

The fine will be recovered by not having to pay slot bonuses for 1st and 2nd round picks in 2020 and 2021.

The question is, does MLB place show-cause status on everyone involved? If so, for how long? My guess is, Cora will be multiple years if not lifetime.


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[Rickp]

The fine will be recovered by not having to pay slot bonuses for 1st and 2nd round picks in 2020 and 2021.

The question is, does MLB place show-cause status on everyone involved? If so, for how long? My guess is, Cora will be multiple years if not lifetime.


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I don’t see the Death Penalty for Cora, 1 or 2 years and fine and 1st born male child.
I think the 1st born maybe too much.


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[sixcat]

I don’t see the Death Penalty for Cora, 1 or 2 years and fine and 1st born male child.

I think the 1st born maybe too much.

 

 

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We’ll see soon enough. You may be right.

 

I’m basing my opinion on the narrative on social media that Cora’s offenses are equatable to Pete Rose. Not sure I agree but can’t say for sure since I don’t know what evidence they have on him. But what they have seems like enough to some of the guys in the game to warrant a Rose type suspension.

 

 

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[Rickp]

Cora & Red Sox “part ways” immediately.


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[Wedgie]

Cora & Red Sox “part ways” immediately.


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Yeah we saw that. My kids are bummed and my wife could couldn’t careless. Then again she’s still pissed about Brady replacing Bledsoe.


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[Rickp]

Yeah we saw that. My kids are bummed and my wife could couldn’t careless. Then again she’s still pissed about Brady replacing Bledsoe.


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This will be an interesting choice for new Mgr. Ron Reonike or Bochy to settle things or Cpt Varitek which will rally fans for short term. Lots of pressure on me GM Bloom.



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[bens197]

Fans and staff within the Dodgers organization have every right to be losing their mind. Cheaters do win when big money is involved.


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