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Dlow206 does away with double bogeys


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3 hours ago, cnosil said:

find an instructor that he communicated well with and find a swing type that he could own.  

Agreed, but I am concerned that  his acquired belief that he needs, outside information and to find an instructor, to  help him find a swing he can own  is actually now more of the problem, than his actual swing may have been in the first place.    

This is the best, but admittedly very bad analogy, that I can come up with.  Gathering golf information can be a very good and useful thing.  Just like keeping a couple of extra country crock containers, and a few extra giant eagle bags can be a very good and useful thing,  until the country crock containers, and giant eagle bags fill the house, and forces the person living there to sleep on the pile of giant eagle bags because the bed is buried under 5' of them, and I am concerned becasue the person sleeping on the giant eagle bags almost never sees it as a problem.

I am just suggesting(based on what I've read) that Derrick  at the very least needs to be open to, and seriously consider the possibility that choosing the I need an instructor path at the very beginning, maybe wasn't the right choice for him at that time. I'm not sure if he did or didn't but who knows what kind of progress he could have made going it alone  for a while, only working on stategy improvements, distance control on putting, distance control on chipping, club selection, completely devoid of swing thoughts, just using the swing he had.

  Again based on the myriad of swing thoughts, moves, ideas that he indicated he was thinking about all the time and to actually be able to make progress with all of that swirling around in his head,  I think points to the  possibility that it is just as likely that he has made improvements in his game in spite of all of that stuff, and not becasue of it.

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30 minutes ago, stuka44 said:

Agreed, but I am concerned that  his acquired belief that he needs, outside information and to find an instructor, to  help him find a swing he can own  is actually now more of the problem, than his actual swing may have been in the first place.    

This is the best, but admittedly very bad analogy, that I can come up with.  Gathering golf information can be a very good and useful thing.  Just like keeping a couple of extra country crock containers, and a few extra giant eagle bags can be a very good and useful thing,  until the country crock containers, and giant eagle bags fill the house, and forces the person living there to sleep on the pile of giant eagle bags because the bed is buried under 5' of them, and I am concerned becasue the person sleeping on the giant eagle bags almost never sees it as a problem.

I am just suggesting(based on what I've read) that Derrick  at the very least needs to be open to, and seriously consider the possibility that choosing the I need an instructor path at the very beginning, maybe wasn't the right choice for him at that time. I'm not sure if he did or didn't but who knows what kind of progress he could have made going it alone  for a while, only working on stategy improvements, distance control on putting, distance control on chipping, club selection, completely devoid of swing thoughts, just using the swing he had.

  Again based on the myriad of swing thoughts, moves, ideas that he indicated he was thinking about all the time and to actually be able to make progress with all of that swirling around in his head,  I think points to the  possibility that it is just as likely that he has made improvements in his game in spite of all of that stuff, and not becasue of it.

You must have seen while reading the thread that he talked about how his contact has gotten better and that when he sees a ball flight issue he knows where to look and it’s usually his grip that is causing it and when he focuses on that the results improve again. He’s talked about how his wayward shots aren’t as bad as they were.

 

You must have also seen that his short game and especially sand play isn’t good and that he’s tried different thoughts and ideas with little to no success and that after a recent playing lesson he now has a better understanding of what he’s supposed to do.

 

There’s nothing wrong with a person focusing on making one aspect of the game and wanting to improve that before working on another aspect. There’s also nothing wrong with wanting the focus to be on full swing instead of short game or recovery shots. There’s a lot of ways to go about getting better at the game and it doesn’t always have to be about learning to hit some specialty shot.

 

Better swings don’t guarantee lower scores because one still needs to execute golf shots and get the ball in the hole. Course management and learning to score is a skill that needs to be developed too and can be helped by playing with better golfers or getting advice on a golf forum. It also doesn’t have to be the primary focus of getting better if someone chooses to take full swing improvement path first

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Stuka44 really nailed his posts. Thanks for those replies 

I guess my question for this rabbit hole analogy. Is when is enough a enough ? Where do you cut it off at ? Do you keep on going drill to drill? Or can you ever say “ I got it; and I think this should do wonders for me ?”. Just seems like this could be endless with little or nothing to show for all your hard work. I guess one can say your backswing or follow thru looks great. But what is the ball truly doing ! What does mg score card say. How many drills does one need to really do ? 
 

my head is just spinning thinking about this. I’m sorry , but if golf ever turned into this for me. The fun level would drop down many notches 

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At the end of the day dlow206 has a goal and he is continuing to practice so he can achieve his goal. Most people would have given up by now and he didn't. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but I am rooting for him.

Edited by stephenmatt
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3 hours ago, Goober said:

Stuka44 really nailed his posts. Thanks for those replies 

I guess my question for this rabbit hole analogy. Is when is enough a enough ? Where do you cut it off at ? Do you keep on going drill to drill? Or can you ever say “ I got it; and I think this should do wonders for me ?”. Just seems like this could be endless with little or nothing to show for all your hard work. I guess one can say your backswing or follow thru looks great. But what is the ball truly doing ! What does mg score card say. How many drills does one need to really do ? 
 

my head is just spinning thinking about this. I’m sorry , but if golf ever turned into this for me. The fun level would drop down many notches 

Considering pros have coaches and even go thru swing changes why does it have to stop?

Athletes in all sports have coaches watching them and helping them when things are off. Why can’t an amateur golfer want to be better and use a coach to help him?

As mentioned dlow has admitted he’s bounced around and has taken ownership of his constant change and is working on being consistent with one instructor and that because of some changes in his family he can travel to visit his coach periodically which would help in being consistent. So to you question maybe it has stopped for him. His coach also has a monthly improvement plan that allows his students to pay a small fee for access to do checkins on what they are working on and they can develop a plan to have dlow playing better golf.

Everyone learns and improves differently. Good for you that your way of doing things works for you and that’s not what or how it works for dlow or others. Neither way is right of wrong, but what works for that person.

 

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1st: @dlow206 this is a great read, and more importantly, I appreciate your pursuit of your goal! Changing anything about your swing is a grind, and the time between initiating the change and having it ingrained is entirely up to you. Kudos to your dedication sir!

2nd: lots of good points made on both sides of this “swing change rabbit hole” conversation. My two cents: I’ve spent $2k on lessons in my 6 golf seasons, and over $3k on custom fit equipment. Did either “improve” my game? Is my swing better? My misses more manageable/consistent? This is a classic example of perception vs reality. I don’t feel like my swing is “better”, yet my handicap goes down every year. My swing is definitely different, but better? Judged by anything other than scoring avg, it’s entirely debatable. But judged by score/stats it’s clear my swing has improved. I’m assuming @dlow206 is actually chasing a lower scoring avg, and not a better looking swing. Personally I can’t stand how my swing looks on video: all I see is what I’m doing wrong. Yet my buddies all love how my swing looks. Again, perception vs reality.

3rd: as to changing instructors, it’s necessary if you can’t implement/understand what a particular instructor wants you to do. My first instructor changed my grip to what most would consider extremely strong: my current instructor essentially undid everything my previous  instructor taught me. My grip is neutral again, and my work with him is essentially all about setup and takeaway. Yet both focused on ball flight/results. I “improved”under both, yet I understand and can implement the ideas of my current instructor much more than my previous one. What’s important to me is that I can measure my improvement, and to that end I agree with anyone who chases improvement.

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Very well said Micah T , and I to applaud him for wanting to improve and all of his efforts.

Given what I've read I would just like to see @dlow206 take at least 3 months, and after that however much time he thinks it deserves if any and try this.  Take 3+ months and lets not add anymore technical swing advice to the heap of ideas that from my pespective overwhelmed him at least a little.

Just play, use some of the ideas,  or none of them, but more importantly just play and pay attention to the times, where he figured something out on his own, or didn't.  Where just going and practicing helped or didn't helped, but it wasn't practicing something an insructor told him a few days or a week before. After however long he wants to take, I just think HE will have a better understanding of what HIS game is, and not what someone else thinks it is or should be.

I just think that this experience and having a little bit of a basis for what things in his game he himself can fix or adjust on his own, or what through trial and error on his own he is convinced he can't fix on his own.  I think this will give him more confidence, and control over future instruction should he choose that path again.  

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I started playing golf 20 years ago at the age of 54. My very first round of golf I shot a 106, second round was a 103 and I felt like I had left 10 or 12 strokes out on the course both rounds.  The next time out I shot an 89 and I have not looked back since. So I would have to say I and NOT the one to answer your questions of how to break into the 80's. 

All my clubs are custom built with aftermarket shafts that have been spine and FLO aligned for max performance every swing. 

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On 12/28/2021 at 2:44 PM, stuka44 said:

I am just suggesting(based on what I've read) that Derrick  at the very least needs to be open to, and seriously consider the possibility that choosing the I need an instructor path at the very beginning, maybe wasn't the right choice for him at that time. I'm not sure if he did or didn't but who knows what kind of progress he could have made going it alone  for a while, only working on stategy improvements, distance control on putting, distance control on chipping, club selection, completely devoid of swing thoughts, just using the swing he had.

  Again based on the myriad of swing thoughts, moves, ideas that he indicated he was thinking about all the time and to actually be able to make progress with all of that swirling around in his head,  I think points to the  possibility that it is just as likely that he has made improvements in his game in spite of all of that stuff, and not becasue of it.

We all make decisions and choices;  some good and some bad.  Nope,  we don't know what kind of progress he could have made.  I can only relate to personal experience and tell you that some people need help from instructors.   I tried and failed miserably trying to fix my short game and even with instruction it took me close to a year to get it back on track.  I am now working on fixing my full swing and have been unsuccessful and fixing it myself.   The reason for the failure is I don't know what do to do fix my issues.   I can go to the range do some drills and hit the ball well so it isn't that I can't get the ball in the air and advance it to the green.   I can't make it translate into improved scoring.  

 

21 hours ago, Goober said:

Stuka44 really nailed his posts. Thanks for those replies 

I guess my question for this rabbit hole analogy. Is when is enough a enough ? Where do you cut it off at ? Do you keep on going drill to drill? Or can you ever say “ I got it; and I think this should do wonders for me ?”. Just seems like this could be endless with little or nothing to show for all your hard work. I guess one can say your backswing or follow thru looks great. But what is the ball truly doing ! What does mg score card say. How many drills does one need to really do ? 
 

my head is just spinning thinking about this. I’m sorry , but if golf ever turned into this for me. The fun level would drop down many notches 

It won't turn into that for you because you don't want it to.  You are content with your game and golf is fun for you.   Enough is dependent on the player why are you so against players doing what they want to do to try and get better?  Maybe it is endless and won't show anything in the end.    If you can prove to me that not taking instruction will improve my game,  tell me how to get to a below scratch player with my current struggles.  My backswing and follow through are "fine" but I top, fat, pull, hook, and hit the ball straight and the scorecard reflects that I am not consistent.   I've got my own thread if you'd like to review my swing.  (https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/39282-cnosil-journey-to-a-better-golf-game/)

 

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As a high handicapper for 40 years, my goal has been to reach the ability to play bogey golf or better (i.e. 90 on a championship course). So I can relate to dlow206's adventure.

Unfortunately, lack of time/money has made the amount of time I spend on the courses limited - not to mention 6 months of winter 8=( I do have lots of space in my yard and have set up a net for practice swings (doubles as an archery range for the kids). I'd love to set up a driving range in the back field to work on distance control, but that isn't in the cards right now.

However, this past year I learned a few things about my swing that have helped straighten things for my long game and keep tee shots more likely in the fairway. I still struggle with casting the club so I need to deal with that. But the biggest help for me this year was downloading an app on my phone that lets me see yardages to the hole as well as track my shots to get a better feel for what I'm hitting each club. Next year I see more improvement coming!

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Don't give up @dlow206 I've been on a similar journey that started about 6-7 years ago. I shot 95-110 and decided I wanted to be good at golf. At the time I had no idea what that was, lol.

I've went through 3 instructors before I found my guy. 

I've went through months of shanks and disappointment as I was making changes. 

The odd training aid... only a few worth their money. 

Hundreds of hours of practice, playing lots, even when I didn't feel like it, often by myself. 

At first my goal was to beat 90 took me a bit, but was able to achieve this using my brain, and shortgame/ putting practice, as I still had a 70 yard slice.

Fast forward a few years/instructors later, I beat 80 for the first time. 

Last year I shot par on my home 9 hole course for the first time with my handicap below 10 for the first time as well. 

This year I shot par on an 18 hole course for the first time, with my handicap around 6 with the lowest point at 4.7. 

Now my ball flight is straightish, with a bit of a draw. But every now and then the slice will reappear for a bit. 

Still have a ways to go from my point of view, but am getting there. 

The biggest complement I've gotten was my golf buddy for 3 years said; "you are way better than when I first met you, way better. " made some of the work worthwhile. 

Keep at it man. You'll get it. Eventually something clicks and then the improvement will be fast and furious. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, cnosil said:

If you can prove to me that not taking instruction will improve my game,  tell me how to get to a below scratch player with my current struggles.

Maybe others have, but I have NOT said that he should not take any further instruction from this point forward ever.  I'm just saying, and  perhaps I just reviewed the 36 pages, of swing changes, thoughts, instructors, one plane swing, muti plane, over the top, inside out, etc, etc. etc., differently than everyone esle, but it resembles a train wreck, from my point of view.  And he is trying to break 90 not become a scratch golfer at this point.  The extent of information and technical skill to achieve one, is no where near the other.

Again I want him to succeed with all my heart. Which is why I'm being what I believe is honest, and what some would say is cruel.  

Having read the thread more closely!  On July 7th, with the swing and game he took to the course a few days before that post, he reported shooting a 93, "his best round ever".  

But this scenario( or something like it) is almost certainly 100 % correct.  On that day he was  one less 3 putt, one less required punch out from trouble, one muffed chip that was in a bad lie in the rough, and one lipped out 4 foot putt away from achieving his goal.   None of those things required any grip or swing change, it just required more practice of what he already had. 

I'm saying that the 93, is evidence that perhaps that he doesn't need as much instruction as he things he does. 

  

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1 hour ago, stuka44 said:

Maybe others have, but I have NOT said that he should not take any further instruction from this point forward ever.  I'm just saying, and  perhaps I just reviewed the 36 pages, of swing changes, thoughts, instructors, one plane swing, muti plane, over the top, inside out, etc, etc. etc., differently than everyone esle, but it resembles a train wreck, from my point of view.  And he is trying to break 90 not become a scratch golfer at this point.  The extent of information and technical skill to achieve one, is no where near the other.

Again I want him to succeed with all my heart. Which is why I'm being what I believe is honest, and what some would say is cruel.  

Having read the thread more closely!  On July 7th, with the swing and game he took to the course a few days before that post, he reported shooting a 93, "his best round ever".  

But this scenario( or something like it) is almost certainly 100 % correct.  On that day he was  one less 3 putt, one less required punch out from trouble, one muffed chip that was in a bad lie in the rough, and one lipped out 4 foot putt away from achieving his goal.   None of those things required any grip or swing change, it just required more practice of what he already had. 

I'm saying that the 93, is evidence that perhaps that he doesn't need as much instruction as he things he does. 

  

You might not be saying that he should never take another lesson but what you are saying is that he shouldn’t do things his way and should do it your way because his way is flawed.

You are ignoring that he’s admitted to how he’s bounced around and that it probably was the wrong approach. You are ignoring that he tried online lessons with Monte and his improvement plan and that wasn’t working for him because he felt in person lesson was better. In that lesson he learned his grip wasn’t correct and that having an instructor fix it and physical lab show him how to grip it and put it in place helped. You ignore that what he learned in that lesson is what his ball flight and contact is like with the correct grip and how to adjust on the course or in practice when he sees something different.

You ignore th at he felt like shallowing the club was something he struggled with and after doing research felt simplifying the swing would be more suitable to reach his goal and he worked on that. You ignore how much knowledge he gained about the swing and how he can use that knowledge to his benefit. 
 

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Course management is not your problem at that level 90 to 100. Sounds good z that isn't it and I've never seen you swing.

 

You need a mechanically repeatable swing that delivers consistent outcomes. Straight, slice or draw. Doesnt matter.

 

I got to low 80s with a bad slice off the tee. I adjusted and played within my faults.  I knew where tee shots would land and could put irons on the green.  I got to 70s by fixing the slice which was a foundational flaw.

Luckily I played with a bunch of 70s shooters who were comfortable telling me how effed up my tee box swing was (old baseball habits).

Learn to hit five clubs

3 wood off tee

4 iron 

6 iron

8 iron

PW

 

After that everything is a club up or down.

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This has been a fascinating read and even more so in the last few posts.

All I can say is Derrick probably is guilty of a few too many cooks in the kitchen that is his golf swing, but show me someone who isn’t guilty of that??  Whether it’s jumping from one instructor to another, trying the last golf magazine swing tip we read, or a new training aid, many of us maybe would have been better served with a few less voices and influences.

That said, the value of a quality instructor is in the diagnosis as much as the prescription.  If you don’t believe that, take a lesson that is captured on video and I promise you, you will understand what “feel isn’t real” means.  Magazines, forum tips, etc can offer you cures for a ball flight issue, but there is no way to know it’s the cure for YOUR ball flight issue. A quality instructor is one who can diagnose why YOU miss the way you do.


I for one think Derrick’s on the right track to align with one instructor and stick with him, and look forward to when he can take the technique work to the course, play golf instead of golf swing (which we are all guilty of at some point), and break into the 80s!

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On 12/24/2021 at 7:17 PM, dlow206 said:

I've also been working

 

19 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

should do it your way because his way is flawed.

I quoted the small section from Derrick so he will be notified  directly.

This is my last post on this thread, unless asked by Derrick  himself.

I did not say he should do it my way, which would in fact be to have never had a golf lesson.  I have only suggested that he try, the practice what you have(good & bad), go play(and I would suggest keeping score every time), and don't add any new information(for either a certain period of time or a certain number of rounds), whatever he wants.  That's it. And yes I think his decision to heap any further instruction(from one, or twenty instructors) on top of the mountain of instruction he has taken on, at this point in time, is flawed. 

And for what its worth I am thankful for  all of the people in my life who had the courage to point out to me that they thought, I was flawed, was making a mistake, or had something wrong with me(if I asked for their advice or not), almost all of which I denied at first, if I'm being honest. Be they close family, or the stranger who lets me know my zipper is down to save me a little embarrassment. 

Lastly apparently an apology is in order to anyone I offended , for violating a golf code that   prohibits anyone from suggesting that improvement can be made in ones golf game without paid instruction, and furthermore for it being equally as heinous to suggest that anyone having made the choice to pay for instruction, perhaps errored, or could possibly benefit by taking a brief break from it.

The prior paragraph is a JOKE,  I have not been offended, and did not mean to offend anyone!  

DERRICK:  Unless you ask for more, this is my last input.

Many have given you suggestions, and many of mine will likely be repeats of what others have already said.

These are mine from someone who has never had a golf lesson, and is admittedly no teaching pro, and who really knows nothing about nothing where golf is concerned.

1. I  believe that  your lack of confidence in your own golf abilities( how well you play, how well you think you play, and how much you think you need to find some (I believe) non-existent near perfect feeling, looking, and productive golf swing, is holding back your progress, at this time,  just as much as, too much, too many, or too varied golf instruction or instructors.

2.  Play more rounds, and beat balls less.  Keep score every time you play, since a certain score is your measure of success at this point.  I have played many rounds where I scored well, and felt like I hit the ball like crap, and had equally as many when I scored like crap and thought I hit the ball great.  My point is you really never know which one you would have gotten for that round if you don't keep score.  And above all remember that when this happens, it doesn't mean we need another lesson necessarily, its merely reminding us that  we are not professionals.

3.  Play 5800-6000 yards for the time being. Build confidence, playing a distance where you don't feel compelled to hit driver off the tee on every hole. And along those same lines remember that there is no such thing as a club you must or are supposed to hit on ANY SHOT. There is only trial and error, and what hitting shots on a golf course, leads you to discover what actually  works for you, and that the "feeling", of something that actually works for you doesn't really matter as long as it works.

4.  Lastly dump any wedge you have over 56 degrees, for the time being.  The margin for error on anything more lofted requires far more precise contact to pull off that most of us possess.  For the record I only use my 56 from right around the green, because even my 56 from 50-60 yards I will hit thin becasue I have to make a much bigger swing with it than I do with my 52, or even 48, which is what I use from that distance.  These require only a non-wrist breaking, take back to about the 8-9 oclock position, and substantially reduces my chances of bad contact on a fuller 56 degree swing.

This is all I have for you.  I do genuinely wish you the best of luck, and admire the  dedication and tenacity to you have shown.  If anything I have posted has caused offense, that was not my intention, and you have my apologies.    

Edited by stuka44
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Driver: Cobra King Speedzone

Irons:  :callaway-small: Mavrik 4-GW

Wedges:  :cleveland-small: CG-14 56 & RTX 52

Putter:  :ping-small: Scottsdale Wolverine

Woods:  Gigagolf  3W, 2H, 3H

Ball:  Srixon Z-Star XV 

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1 hour ago, stuka44 said:

2.  Play more rounds, and beat balls less.

3.  Play 5800-6000 yards for the time being. 

4.  Lastly dump any wedge you have over 56 degrees, for the time being.

Three really useful tips. Good stuff stuka44.

Edited by stephenmatt
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3 minutes ago, dlow206 said:

There has been a lot of of discussion in the last few pages on whether instruction will help me with my goals or if I should focus on other areas that aren't related to instruction. 

A few things:

  • My short game (pitch and chip) technique was fundamentally flawed, and I wouldn't have known why without the playing lesson. I was unaware that I had so much lower body / hip movement in my pitch shots and even in chip shots, because i don't feel it. I now have an understanding of what i need to feel for the proper technique which will lead to better consistency. My old technique of taking a long swing for a pitch shot and having a lot of lower body action and decelerating to hit the right distance had no consistency at all
  • My putting stroke had a very similar issue, too much lower body action in the putting stroke, which I would also not have been aware of because I don't feel that happening either. I know what I need to work on to improve my putting technique (practice putting with an alignment stick in belt loop)
  • Regarding my full swing, it will take work to implement the changes well, but I really am only working on two things. One is what Monte said about recentering properly. The second I always work on, ensuring I grip the club properly and align properly. This second one, I always have to work on so that I don't go back to some things that were hurting me in the past
  • On course, i actually have minimal swing thoughts. On full swing, its "right, left, swing". On partial shots, its "get left". I'm sure those are meaningless to everyone else, but I know what they mean, and I don't think about really any other swing thoughts on course.
  • On general confidence, I feel pretty confident out on the course except for a few things: fairway woods off the deck, shots off steep sidehill lies. The fairway wood thing is just because I don't get enough practice with them on-course, i can hit them ok at the range off a mat. I just need to practice fairway woods more, especially now, because we can't report scores for handicap purposes anyway. The shots of steep sidehill lies is also a need more practice thing because there isn't really any good way for me to practice these except on the course

👍

  • Like 1

Rick

 

 

Left Hand, 

Driver; Titleist TSi2, Kuro Kage 50 gr   
5 wood; Ping 425, Senior Shaft 55 gr       
7 wood; Ping 425, Senior Shaft 55 gr      
5 hybrid; Cally Steelhead, Hazardous R2     
Irons; Mizuno JPX 923HM 7-GW Recoil 460 F2
Wedges; Titleist S9 54*, Mizuno SW 56*

Putter; Waaay too many to list

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  • dlow206 changed the title to Dlow206 does away with double bogeys

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