Dlow206 does away with double bogeys

[JalanK]

20 hours ago, dlow206 said:

What did you do to fix it?

I started with dragging the grip back before allowing the head to move, just to get the feeling of not snatching the club head back. Then, I worked on starting the backswing with my left hand and keeping the right hand passive, not applying any force with the right hand. I just allowed the right hand to stabilize the club on the backswing. Eventually I got to a point where both hands were working together. It takes time and practice. Just practice the first 2 feet of the backswing until you can keep your right hand from taking control and pulling on the grip. it helps that I now wait until I'm at the top of the backswing before setting my wrists.

[dlow206]

Couple of swings from today that i just submitted to my online instructor. I think it looks slightly better than the prior swings but lots of work left

 

 

 

[edingc]

I had similar issues with my backswing. Took an entire offseason (last year) to change it. Stay with it! You'll be in the 80s in no time.

[dlow206]

Few things that I am currently working on (prescribed by my instructor):

• Make sure proper posture and setup
• Really focus on grip, especially not letting the left hand get too strong, and make sure to have a long left thumb. According to my instructor, the long left thumb helps to keep the wrists from cupping at the top of the swing
• Make parallel to parallel swings (i think its called the L to L drill or 9 to 3 drill). He said this will help me better learn and understand how the right arm should work in my swing

That is all i am focused on for my long game. For putting, i haven't had a lesson recently, but did discover on my own a setup issue that cause me to pull putts. Fixed that up. Will take another putting lesson (different instructor who is a putting coach) in the near future, but don't want to work on too many things at once. 

I am really happy overall that my instructor Alex is starting with fundamentals. Having an improper setup just makes it that much harder to swing well. And I always knew something was off with my grip, but in-person instructors that I have worked with it either said it was fine or just weaken it a bit. But I have learned there is more than just weak vs. strong, there is where the grip sits in your hand (fingers vs. palm), there is how your left thumb sits on the grip, etc. No other instructor has gone through grip to this level of detail, even when i have asked a lot of grip questions in the past.

 

[dlow206]

Had an epiphany today. Its actually something that has proven itself multiple times, so its not new. I swing much better when i feel like i have a "fast" tempo. I recorded it on video and watched it and what in my mind is "fast" turns out to be a smooth, relatively properly sequenced swing. When I start working on swing changes, this time as prescribed by my instructor, my tempo gets real slow and i hit the ball poorly because my swing gets out of wack.

What I learned though, is even when i practice a drill at let's say 50% speed, that doesn't mean my tempo needs to get slower. I did a parallel to parallel drill, didn't swing particularly hard because it is a drill, but main swing thought was not let the tempo get to slow. 

[BMart519]

I am sitting at my computer with my thumbs up and can fully cup my wrist, same if I tuck my thumbs into my palms and ball them up in a fist or I lay my thumb across the side of my index finger if I make a fist. I don't see how that thumb position restricts wrist cup. 

Maybe my grip is a mess... Maybe you are on to something! 

[dlow206]

4 minutes ago, BMart519 said:

I am sitting at my computer with my thumbs up and can fully cup my wrist, same if I tuck my thumbs into my palms and ball them up in a fist or I lay my thumb across the side of my index finger if I make a fist. I don't see how that thumb position restricts wrist cup. 

Maybe my grip is a mess... Maybe you are on to something! 

If you hold your hand up with your thumb up, lets saying using your left hand and then extend your left thumb up and feel a little stretch and then try to cup your wrist. Yes, it will still cup some, but less than if you relax your thumb and put it down. 

[BMart519]

10 minutes ago, dlow206 said:

If you hold your hand up with your thumb up, lets saying using your left hand and then extend your left thumb up and feel a little stretch and then try to cup your wrist. Yes, it will still cup some, but less than if you relax your thumb and put it down. 

OK, I tried this and agree because I had to carefully stare at my hand and forearm. However, I can cup my wrist to about 80 degrees with thumb up and relaxing my thumb it will cup a tiny amount further to about 85 degrees. A few considerations: 

- on the golf club you aren't pulling the thumb towards your forearm you are pushing it toward the end of the shaft, so the hand and wrist muscles are behaving differently

- this thumb position only seems to affect the end range or maximum flex of the wrist, you could still have a massive cup so this isn't going to magically close the clubface. 

[dlow206]

1 minute ago, BMart519 said:

OK, I tried this and agree because I had to carefully stare at my hand and forearm. However, I can cup my wrist to about 80 degrees with thumb up and relaxing my thumb it will cup a tiny amount further to about 85 degrees. A few considerations: 

- on the golf club you aren't pulling the thumb towards your forearm you are pushing it toward the end of the shaft, so the hand and wrist muscles are behaving differently

- this thumb position only seems to affect the end range or maximum flex of the wrist, you could still have a massive cup so this isn't going to magically close the clubface. 

I see. my instructor specifically called out that i should have a long left thumb down the shaft and that i am more likely to cup with a short thumb.

[BMart519]

12 minutes ago, dlow206 said:

I see. my instructor specifically called out that i should have a long left thumb down the shaft and that i am more likely to cup with a short thumb.

I find that short thumb vs long thumb has the biggest impact on how my hands fit together to form the grip or how much my right hand can cover my left hand. This might reduce wrist cupping if the angles that each wrist works at are more opposed to each other which is possible. Could be a good follow up question. 

[cnosil]

15 minutes ago, dlow206 said:

I see. my instructor specifically called out that i should have a long left thumb down the shaft and that i am more likely to cup with a short thumb.

My uneducated guess is that is is more about how the two hands work together and the ability to cup individual hands. 

[Chip Strokes]

@dlow206is “cupping” referring to flexion or extension of the wrist? i’m trying to follow along here 

[dlow206]

Just now, Chip Strokes said:

@dlow206is “cupping” referring to flexion or extension of the wrist? i’m trying to follow along here 

extension of the left wrist

3 minutes ago, cnosil said:

My uneducated guess is that is is more about how the two hands work together and the ability to cup individual hands. 

Yeah, you are probably correct.

[Chip Strokes]

6 minutes ago, dlow206 said:

extension of the left wrist

Yeah, you are probably correct.

id imagine, like @cnosilsaid, that your coach is referring to something having to do with how your hands influence each other. 

anatomically, your thumb and wrist are completely independent of each other.  the only relationship would be if that left thumb is applying force to the shaft. that would engage your forearm flexors and make it more difficult for the extensor muscles on top of your forearm to pull the wrist into a cupped position.  

the wrist’s ROM in flexion and extension is only affected by mobility in the wrist joint, and how tight your forearm muscles are. 

your thumb has complete ROM no matter the position of your wrist, and vice versa. 

maybe your coach is trying to get you to apply force to the shaft with your left thumb, which would make cupping a little harder because you’d be attempting to apply force in two directions. 

[dlow206]

Got some additional feedback from my online instructor today based on the most recent videos I submitted yesterday. Overall, the feedback was:

• Still swing path is to the left, but much less than previously
• Although my shoulders are square, my feet are lined up open (this probably stems when the pro at my club was telling me i was aimed to far right so i probably overreacted and my feet now are lining up left)
• Need  to strengthen my right hand grip a bit only by a few degrees
• He gave me a drill to work on to improve impact position and path
• Gave me a few small setup changes as well

[Kenny B]

1 hour ago, dlow206 said:

Got some additional feedback from my online instructor today based on the most recent videos I submitted yesterday. Overall, the feedback was:

• Still swing path is to the left, but much less than previously
• Although my shoulders are square, my feet are lined up open (this probably stems when the pro at my club was telling me i was aimed to far right so i probably overreacted and my feet now are lining up left)
• Need  to strengthen my right hand grip a bit only by a few degrees
• He gave me a drill to work on to improve impact position and path
• Gave me a few small setup changes as well

• Need  to strengthen my right hand grip a bit only by a few degrees

I was looking at your pic in the shaft length thread and thought the same thing, but if you don't get squared up correctly, you will be hitting more left.

My question, and maybe I missed it, is what is the issue that you need to fix... other than swing path to the left?  What's the ball doing?

[dlow206]

28 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

• Need  to strengthen my right hand grip a bit only by a few degrees

I was looking at your pic in the shaft length thread and thought the same thing, but if you don't get squared up correctly, you will be hitting more left.

My question, and maybe I missed it, is what is the issue that you need to fix... other than swing path to the left?  What's the ball doing?

When i miss, i actually hit balls that start right and go more right (driver) or just look like a push (irons). But its not an inside out push, the divots point left, so the face is wide open. I rarely hit a big left to right slice, mostly push slice

[Kenny B]

30 minutes ago, dlow206 said:

When i miss, i actually hit balls that start right and go more right (driver) or just look like a push (irons). But its not an inside out push, the divots point left, so the face is wide open. I rarely hit a big left to right slice, mostly push slice

I am certainly not an expert and you have instructors that know your swing, but it sounds a lot like my old swing (and occasional relapse).  It's not an inside out push because that's very hard to do when, on the downswing you rotate too soon leaving your arms behind to play catchup, so a little over the top.  

I had that sequencing problem for years, and coupled with a cupped left wrist equaled a push to the right.  It still happens when I'm sore or tired.  I had to seem like I was keeping my back to target as long as possible in the downswing before I rotated, which gives the arms a little head start over the hips.  

I do this drill...  at top of backswing I drop my arms down to where the shaft is parallel as I shift into lead side before rotating; trying to focus on a DJ bowed left wrist, then rotate as fast as I can (I'm old; I don't rotate very fast ).  I do this in slow motion until shaft is parallel, then rotate making ball contact.  Not trying to hit the ball any distance, just making good contact.  The club can't help but come from the inside.  The key is not thinking about rotation until the club is in a good position.

It's helped me.

[Kenny B]

6 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

I am certainly not an expert and you have instructors that know your swing, but it sounds a lot like my old swing (and occasional relapse).  It's not an inside out push because that's very hard to do when, on the downswing you rotate too soon leaving your arms behind to play catchup, so a little over the top.  

I had that sequencing problem for years, and coupled with a cupped left wrist equaled a push to the right.  It still happens when I'm sore or tired.  I had to seem like I was keeping my back to target as long as possible in the downswing before I rotated, which gives the arms a little head start over the hips.  

I do this drill...  at top of backswing I drop my arms down to where the shaft is parallel as I shift into lead side before rotating; trying to focus on a DJ bowed left wrist, then rotate as fast as I can (I'm old; I don't rotate very fast ).  I do this in slow motion until shaft is parallel, then rotate making ball contact.  Not trying to hit the ball any distance, just making good contact.  The club can't help but come from the inside.  The key is not thinking about rotation until the club is in a good position.

It's helped me.

If you haven't seen this video, take a look at Justin Rose's pre-swing drill.

 

 

[dlow206]

9 hours ago, Kenny B said:

If you haven't seen this video, take a look at Justin Rose's pre-swing drill.

 

 

I saw Monte doing the Justin Rose drill pre-swing during a 9 hole playing lesson. 

[edingc]

21 hours ago, BMart519 said:

I find that short thumb vs long thumb has the biggest impact on how my hands fit together to form the grip or how much my right hand can cover my left hand. This might reduce wrist cupping if the angles that each wrist works at are more opposed to each other which is possible. Could be a good follow up question. 

Ditto. A long left thumb, for me, allows my right hand to properly "seat" against it when I take my grip.

[dlow206]

So I know I should tread carefully when looking at other online instruction materials while I am already working with an instructor, so not looking for a lecture on that lol. Below is an explanation of where i am going with this.

My instructor has been working with me on grip. One of the changes he initially asked me to make was to make my right hand more neutral than it had been. Prior to working with Alex, I had weakened my right hand from where it once was. After a few more video lessons, Alex told me to strengthen my right hand a few degrees based on what he was seeing.

I have been struggling lately with an open face and it keeps getting worse. I actually wish at times i could hit a normal left to right slice, instead of a huge push slice. Also, my distances kept getting worse and worse, probably lost 30 yards per club, it was nuts.

So I came across an article from Mike Adams about grip, specifically about the right hand. Here is an excerpt:

Try a simple test. Hold a club in just your right hand, first with an extremely strong grip (where your hand is under the bottom of the handle). Make some half speed swings and notice if the face rapidly closes, stays square or tends to stay open. Do the same exercise with a neutral grip (on the side of the handle) and a weak one (with the hand more on top). The grip that produces the most square, natural-feeling release is going to be the best one for you.

"Once you've found the right one, use that as your right hand grip," says Adams. "It dictates the direction of the hinge. It will dictate what your right elbow does, and what your path does. You don't have to think about it. Each of us has a pattern that fits us best."

With all of my recent struggles with clubface direction, I tried what Mike said when I was on the 17th tee today waiting to hit. With a weak grip right hand swing, face is massively open, lots of loft added. Neutral (what i perceive to be neutral), still really open, loft added. Stronger right hand, square. The stronger right hand where the hand starts to feel like it is a bit more like my natural right hand grip.

On my tee shots on 17 and 18, my driver shots went more back to normal. Normal good distances, reasonable ball flight (not OB right), etc. Going to talk to my instructor about this, to see what he thinks about me using the stronger right hand grip.

[DPattGolf]

16 hours ago, dlow206 said:

When i miss, i actually hit balls that start right and go more right (driver) or just look like a push (irons). But its not an inside out push, the divots point left, so the face is wide open. I rarely hit a big left to right slice, mostly push slice

Be careful when trying to assess swing path with divots because most divots can reflect a more closed path then what actually occurred. This is because divots (on good strikes) are created not only after contact with that ball but often past where the front of the ball was on the ground. At that point in our swings we are almost always beginning to move left (right for our lefty friends) into the follow through. 

[dlow206]

14 minutes ago, DPattGolf said:

Be careful when trying to assess swing path with divots because most divots can reflect a more closed path then what actually occurred. This is because divots (on good strikes) are created not only after contact with that ball but often past where the front of the ball was on the ground. At that point in our swings we are almost always beginning to move left (right for our lefty friends) into the follow through. 

My leftwards divots aren't the divot types that are point slightly left, they are very very left. 

[dlow206]

Also, related to my post on grip a few posts above, this is what I perceive as a strong right hand, but looking at it in a picture, it doesn't look abnormally strong, right?

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, dlow206 said:

Also, related to my post on grip a few posts above, this is what I perceive as a strong right hand, but looking at it in a picture, it doesn't look abnormally strong, right?

Based on that picture it looks like a neutral right hand.   Strong right hand would turned under more.  

[dlow206]

4 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Based on that picture it looks like a neutral right hand.   Strong right hand would turned under more.  

Thanks. When I look down at my right hand from my point of view, i perceive it to be under, but it actually really isn't when i see a picture of it (picture above). 

[cnosil]

44 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Based on that picture it looks like a neutral right hand.   Strong right hand would turned under more.  

The V created by the thumb and index finger would be right shoulder or outside right shoulder in a string grip.  Yours points to right side of head. 

[dlow206]

2 hours ago, cnosil said:

The V created by the thumb and index finger would be right shoulder or outside right shoulder in a string grip.  Yours points to right side of head. 

I had my instructor look at it and he said it looks good.

i guess my perception of what my grip looks different than what it looks like from a face on view in a picture.

[Kenny B]

Your grip looks rather neutral to me.  A strong grip would be placing the right hand under the grip with palm almost facing straight up, then grip it.