Dlow206 does away with double bogeys

[dlow206]

Had my remote live lesson with Monte today on Facetime. He said my number one biggest issue is length of backswing, and things that I am doing to make the length of my current backswing. He explained that a long backswing in of itself is not a bad thing, but some of the stuff that I am doing to create my long backswing are causing issues. 

He had me make backswings where I felt like I was swinging back only to waist high. And feel like the backswing is very flat. I had mentioned that I was scared of my inside takeaway returning and he explained that its ok if the arms feel like they are moving inside and that improper wrist movement to start the backswing is the main cause of an inside takeaway. The "waist high" feeling swing plus the flatter feeling produced a full length backswing with better contact at impact. So ingraining that backswing is my number one focus, but Monte said that I need to continue recording the swing to make sure I don't start overexaggerating. 

 

[Kenny B]

42 minutes ago, dlow206 said:

Had my remote live lesson with Monte today on Facetime. He said my number one biggest issue is length of backswing, and things that I am doing to make the length of my current backswing. He explained that a long backswing in of itself is not a bad thing, but some of the stuff that I am doing to create my long backswing are causing issues. 

He had me make backswings where I felt like I was swinging back only to waist high. And feel like the backswing is very flat. I had mentioned that I was scared of my inside takeaway returning and he explained that its ok if the arms feel like they are moving inside and that improper wrist movement to start the backswing is the main cause of an inside takeaway. The "waist high" feeling swing plus the flatter feeling produced a full length backswing with better contact at impact. So ingraining that backswing is my number one focus, but Monte said that I need to continue recording the swing to make sure I don't start overexaggerating. 

 

Looking good.  Club face in good shape.  How do you swing like that with your foot almost off the edge of the mat??

[dlow206]

2 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

Looking good.  Club face in good shape.  How do you swing like that with your foot almost off the edge of the mat??

Regarding the mat, I don't always do that, but occasionally do. Tends to happen when I am super focused on my swing. I need to move the mat back a bit, it starts sliding forward a bit over time. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

16 hours ago, BMart519 said:

Why does a stronger grip require you to pivot stall and flip to close the face if the strong grip promotes a shut face?

Dlow covers it pretty well in his reply. The body reacts to the clubface in transition/downswing in and effort to try and square the face and hit the ball straight.

[Kenny B]

On 5/22/2021 at 10:44 AM, dlow206 said:

Had my remote live lesson with Monte today on Facetime. He said my number one biggest issue is length of backswing, and things that I am doing to make the length of my current backswing. He explained that a long backswing in of itself is not a bad thing, but some of the stuff that I am doing to create my long backswing are causing issues. 

He had me make backswings where I felt like I was swinging back only to waist high. And feel like the backswing is very flat. I had mentioned that I was scared of my inside takeaway returning and he explained that its ok if the arms feel like they are moving inside and that improper wrist movement to start the backswing is the main cause of an inside takeaway. The "waist high" feeling swing plus the flatter feeling produced a full length backswing with better contact at impact. So ingraining that backswing is my number one focus, but Monte said that I need to continue recording the swing to make sure I don't start overexaggerating. 

 

Congratulations on making Monte's Instagram post today!!

https://www.instagram.com/p/CPOD7vRNaxD/

 

[dlow206]

14 hours ago, Kenny B said:

Congratulations on making Monte's Instagram post today!!

https://www.instagram.com/p/CPOD7vRNaxD/

 

Thanks, feeling a little bit famous now lol.

On a slightly related note, can't believe this thread on MGS has 18.6k views!

[sirchunksalot]

2 hours ago, dlow206 said:

Thanks, feeling a little bit famous now lol.

On a slightly related note, can't believe this thread on MGS has 18.6k views!

I'd say there's a lot of us who enjoy reading about your journey to get better and are rooting for you. 

[BMart519]

What are you doing to improve your scoring? Better technique and contact should lead to lower scores once the new swing holds up on the course. There are a lot of areas to drop shots below full swing and through course management. 

How many 3 putts and total putts per round do you average? What is your make rate inside 6' and 12'?
Do you have swings that produce carry distances of 5-30 yards in 5 yard increments with 2 different clubs for high and low trajectory greenside shots? What is your up/down%?
What is your system for 40-100 yard shots or any distance below your shortest full swing wedge?
How many penalties per round do you average? Are they usually off the tee or on approach?
How are you going to increase GIR? What are your scoring averages for par 3s vs 4s and 5s?
Which club leads to best scoring off the tee on par 4s/5s?

[dlow206]

7 minutes ago, BMart519 said:

What are you doing to improve your scoring? Better technique and contact should lead to lower scores once the new swing holds up on the course. There are a lot of areas to drop shots below full swing and through course management. 

How many 3 putts and total putts per round do you average? What is your make rate inside 6' and 12'?
Do you have swings that produce carry distances of 5-30 yards in 5 yard increments with 2 different clubs for high and low trajectory greenside shots? What is your up/down%?
What is your system for 40-100 yard shots or any distance below your shortest full swing wedge?
How many penalties per round do you average? Are they usually off the tee or on approach?
How are you going to increase GIR? What are your scoring averages for par 3s vs 4s and 5s?
Which club leads to best scoring off the tee on par 4s/5s?

So part of all my non-putting issues go back somewhat to what Monte said about my backswing arm overrun issue that Monte called out in my most recent lesson. You may ask how that applies to a chip or pitch? It goes back to awareness of swing length. The backswing during my lesson that felt "waist high" was essentially a sufficiently long backswing for a full shot. That "waist high" feel is essentially the same length I feel on my pitch shots, so that means my pitch shot backswing is likely way too long. I am definitely not intending it to be that long, and probably am decelerating to hit a short pitch shot. I am not Phil and am not trying to be Phil, so I can't take a full length backswing to hit a short pitch. So gaining awareness of my backswing length is overall priority number one, i consider it as a prerequisite to develop a more reliable short game as well. 

[BMart519]

Going to be a long road if you need to sort out your full swing to learn how to chip and pitch. Below full swing is based on developing feels through repetition of hitting to known distances and learning roll out with consistent contact. A lot harder to dial in contact on full swings versus partial. 

The intention of my questions was to think of ways you could shave 1-2 strokes in each of those areas and allocate practice time. Like spending some time 1 day per week on putting distance control, another on short putts, another on greenside chips, and another on 40-100 yards. There's always going to be days where your full swing isn't firing 100%. Everything below full swing as well as mental game is going to be the glue that holds it together and raises the floor on your scoring. 

Another example would be speed/strength training, gain 5MPH clubhead speed and hit the ball 10-13 yards farther. Don't need to touch a golf club or use any golf "facility" to develop any skill or technique. Having 2-3 clubs less into a green pretty much guarantees higher GIR and lower scores provided you present the club the same way in terms of path and face relationships.

I'm sure you do a bunch of this stuff already, but all I remember through most of this thread is swing technique and if your #1 priority is breaking a scoring barrier - full swing technique is less than 50% of the overall picture. (I don't mean this in a SG perspective, before someone tells me SG OTT and Approach are like 60-70% of scoring.)

[Kenny B]

8 hours ago, dlow206 said:

So part of all my non-putting issues go back somewhat to what Monte said about my backswing arm overrun issue that Monte called out in my most recent lesson. You may ask how that applies to a chip or pitch? It goes back to awareness of swing length. The backswing during my lesson that felt "waist high" was essentially a sufficiently long backswing for a full shot. That "waist high" feel is essentially the same length I feel on my pitch shots, so that means my pitch shot backswing is likely way too long. I am definitely not intending it to be that long, and probably am decelerating to hit a short pitch shot. I am not Phil and am not trying to be Phil, so I can't take a full length backswing to hit a short pitch. So gaining awareness of my backswing length is overall priority number one, i consider it as a prerequisite to develop a more reliable short game as well. 

From watching your full swing videos I will come out and say that you have a much better looking full swing than I do.  The point is that @BMart519 is correct; you can work on your full swing, fixing little flaws, and that's fine; but if your quest is to "break into the 80's", then the short game needs a lot of attention.  Controlling less than full shots with wedges, good chipping and bunker play, and reasonable putting will easily get you in the 80's with the swing I see in your video.

I don't hit the ball a long way, but I can keep it in play.  Not every tee shot is ideal, and I miss a lot of GIR.  I get the ball around the green and make pars.  My goal is to not make doubles or worse; it happens, but with a confident short game it happens less than it used to.  I am usually in the low-mid 80's with a few 70's when I'm putting well.

A comment that I heard one of our teaching pros say a few years ago to his junior players... play the forward tees until you shoot a par round, then move back a tee box and repeat.  He has a great group of juniors!!  I'm not saying you need to do that, but what it does is change the way you manage the course.  You see a different course, and shots you might use from your usual tees might not be the shots needed from the forward tees.  The game becomes keeping the ball in play, getting on the green with hopefully shorter clubs, and emphasis on getting up and down.  When you can consistently shoot 80's, then move back a tee box.  You will have more confidence in your game when you do.  Just an FYI... playing from the forward tees is humbling the first few times.  It's not as easy as you might think.

[dlow206]

Going to be trying out an in-person lesson with an instructor in my local area this Saturday. This instructor came recommended to me. I still plan to work with Monte, but if this local instructor is a good fit, i think that will be of great benefit, as long as what I work on doesn't contradict between the two instructors. What I like about the in-person instruction is the ability for the instructor to see from all angles, making sure I aim aimed where I think I aimed, etc. Also will want to work in-person on short game, particularly bunker and chip shots. 

[Chip Strokes]

On 4/23/2021 at 8:10 PM, dlow206 said:

So I know it seems like I have ADHD in terms of which coach i am working with at any point in time. I decided to work with Monte again and stick with it. He recently identified some very specific items in my backswing that hadn't been identified by other coaches. While my swing had been looking pretty decent to date, the two main items that Monte had called out have made a significant difference in low point control, getting my arms and pivot more in sync, etc. The two things called out were:

 

 

haha well, there’s something to be said for self awareness. 

[dlow206]

16 minutes ago, Chip Strokes said:

haha well, there’s something to be said for self awareness. 

LOL.

I would prefer to find a high quality instructor in my local area for in-person lessons. In-person usually works much better for me, but I have tried 3 different instructors in my area and it didn't work out. 

[Chip Strokes]

1 minute ago, dlow206 said:

LOL.

I would prefer to find a high quality instructor in my local area for in-person lessons. In-person usually works much better for me, but I have tried 3 different instructors in my area and it didn't work out. 

just poking fun.

i don’t think i’d like video/zoom lessons at all. 

hopefully you click with the new coach. 

[dlow206]

Had an in-person lesson with Tom Sovay, who came recommended to me. 

https://www.instagram.com/tsovay/

To start the lesson, he asked a little bit about my game and then we got started. Before hitting any baseline shots, he wanted to go through grip in detail. It wasn't about strong, neutral, weak, it was about how each hand should go onto the club at a very detailed level. He would adjust my hands when it wasn't quite to his liking. After that, we did a couple of basic feels with some training aids to feel swing plane, impact, etc., all without a ball.

After that, then he had me hit a few shots, with my hands placed on the grip in the way he wanted. Was hitting everything straighter and farther with my irons. Hit my 7 iron like 40 yards further than I had been hitting lately (recently have been hitting my 7 iron about 140 or so, which is very depressing for me). 

Hit some with driver and it took some adjustment. With gripping the club the way he wanted me to, I was hitting hooks. He said I was getting too quick with the hips with my driver and also getting too forward as well. When I was able to make a more patient swing with driver, was hitting a nice draw. 

We didn't really make any changes to my swing itself. It was more about grip, how impact position should feel, etc. The grip fixing made a lot of things better overall in my swing. 

[dlow206]

That grip change from my lesson yesterday really paid off. Shot a 44 on the front 9 today, which is a personal best, and an overall 95. Would have liked to shot better on the back 9, but still get used to the grip change and still working on executing it correctly and consistently. The grip change made a world of difference with irons, as well as in the short game on pitch shots. Its crazy how much better it is making everything.

Still trying to figure out the grip change off the tee with driver. When I execute correctly, I hit a draw, which is the opposite of my normal weak fade. When I don't execute correctly, or grip it slightly too strong, then I start hitting hooks, which I am also not used to. 

[Stuka44]

dlow206:  I just started looking through some of the 27 pages of content on your topic.  I truly admire your journey.  Now I didn't look at all of it and not sure if you've gotten in under 90 yet.  But in your last post  I see you noted a 95, with a 44 on one 9.  Your swing looks good.

My first thought on all of this is wow that is a lot of technical thought going on, with the grip, swing etc. If you carded a 95, I would challenge you to go out and play a round and take your grip and hit the ball.  I would challenge you to play a round and only concentrate at this point on strategy.  If you can hit an iron 170-190 or more play a round and tee off only with that club, on all par 4's and 5's.  Keep the ball in play, use clubs that will reduce bad shot.  Think eliminate bad shots, and shots that get me in trouble, not hit more great shots.  Think just don't 3 put on anything over 8 feet because the pro's are only making 50% at 8 feet.

I am just worried at this point you are looking for too much technical perfection with each and every swing, and that more strategic thought, and practice chipping it closer than you are now, and not 3 putting as often is all you need at this point to get in under 90, and shave those strokes off your score.

  

  

[dlow206]

15 minutes ago, stuka44 said:

dlow206:  I just started looking through some of the 27 pages of content on your topic.  I truly admire your journey.  Now I didn't look at all of it and not sure if you've gotten in under 90 yet.  But in your last post  I see you noted a 95, with a 44 on one 9.  Your swing looks good.

My first thought on all of this is wow that is a lot of technical thought going on, with the grip, swing etc. If you carded a 95, I would challenge you to go out and play a round and take your grip and hit the ball.  I would challenge you to play a round and only concentrate at this point on strategy.  If you can hit an iron 170-190 or more play a round and tee off only with that club, on all par 4's and 5's.  Keep the ball in play, use clubs that will reduce bad shot.  Think eliminate bad shots, and shots that get me in trouble, not hit more great shots.  Think just don't 3 put on anything over 8 feet because the pro's are only making 50% at 8 feet.

I am just worried at this point you are looking for too much technical perfection with each and every swing, and that more strategic thought, and practice chipping it closer than you are now, and not 3 putting as often is all you need at this point to get in under 90, and shave those strokes off your score.

  

  

Thanks, I have been working on reducing on-course technical swing things, keeping those to a minimum. 

Regarding the tee off with an iron strategy, im not a big fan of that. I'm more of the belief of learning to hit driver well off the tee, and am okay with any short term pains that may come with it. I don't really lose too many balls OB off the tee anymore, 0 the last round. Of course I didn't hit every shot perfectly off the tee with driver, but i don't think i would hit a 6 iron off the tee perfectly everytime either. I also don't like to be hitting long irons into the green every hole.

[Chip Strokes]

14 minutes ago, dlow206 said:

Thanks, I have been working on reducing on-course technical swing things, keeping those to a minimum. 

Regarding the tee off with an iron strategy, im not a big fan of that. I'm more of the belief of learning to hit driver well off the tee, and am okay with any short term pains that may come with it. I don't really lose too many balls OB off the tee anymore, 0 the last round. Of course I didn't hit every shot perfectly off the tee with driver, but i don't think i would hit a 6 iron off the tee perfectly everytime either. I also don't like to be hitting long irons into the green every hole.

with an average drive around 240ish, you’re leaving yourself long irons into any par 4 that’s longer than 410 yards as it is. 

i may be wrong, but i think @stuka44 is suggesting play every par 4 as a par 5. 

bogey golf gets you under 90. so if you went 9i, 9i, wedge, 2-putt on every par 4 and managed the par 3s well you’d hit your goal relatively easily. 

don’t take offense to any of that...you and i shoot around the same scores.

i think that’s a really good exercise in getting around the course and hitting manageable shots to achieve a goal.

[Stuka44]

4 hours ago, Chip Strokes said:

with an average drive around 240ish, you’re leaving yourself long irons into any par 4 that’s longer than 410 yards as it is. 

i may be wrong, but i think @stuka44 is suggesting play every par 4 as a par 5. 

bogey golf gets you under 90. so if you went 9i, 9i, wedge, 2-putt on every par 4 and managed the par 3s well you’d hit your goal relatively easily. 

don’t take offense to any of that...you and i shoot around the same scores.

i think that’s a really good exercise in getting around the course and hitting manageable shots to achieve a goal.

Exactly right!  I mean no offense at all.  Along with I don't believe there is any one perfect swing, there is NO CLUB THAT YOU "SHOULD" HIT OFF THE TEE. 

I'm not sure where you play regularly but many par 4's I play on my local courses are in the 310-370 yard range.  If you can hit a 4, 5, 6 iron off a tee and get 180-200 yards out of them and get into less trouble, then you would not have a long iron into the green. On a 350 yard par 4 if you can hit an iron or other club which you can avoid trouble with more often than your driver and get 200 yards out of it then you have 150 into the green. I thought I saw 140-150 for a 7 iron for you.  So you're likely looking at 4 or 5 iron, and then 7 iron into the green.  Chip is right I am saying this will lead to improved score if you avoid clubs that are getting you into trouble because you feel you "should" be hitting them.

He is correct.  Think strategically.  Think 5 stokes a hole is a 90.  As you improve you can think pars, and birdies.  Picture it this way. Bogey 4 par 5's = 24.  Bogey 4 par 3's= 16 Total 40.  Bogey 10 par 4's= 50 Total (90).  So with these scores you simply have to par one par 4 to break 90.  Now throw a par on a par 3 in.  Now you can throw a double on a par 5, and still break 90.  It is not getting into trouble however you can accomplish that on shorter easier par 4's and not taking 6's on them which is going to make the difference.  Play strategically for 5's, and avoid trouble and clubs that get you into trouble and I have every faith that you will quickly break 90.

Avoid this on par 5's: Driver in trees, punch out, now I have to recover...topped 3 wood,  4th short, 5 on  3 putt 8.  Now that's assuming your tee shot didn't cost you a stroke, or that you were able to get back to the fairway with one shot.  I would suggest this.

5 iron 170 yards.   5 iron, 5 iron, 5 iron and you are on or next to the green on a 510 yard par 5. 2 putt par, or chip on and two putt 6. If its a 490 yard par 5 then it would likely be 5i, 5i, 7i, and you've covered the distance without pulling a club you likely don't hit as consistently as 5 iron and 7 iron.  Avoid big numbers by using clubs you can more consistently hit well.  

      

  Chip was correct in his interpretation of my advice.

[dlow206]

45 minutes ago, stuka44 said:

Exactly right!  I mean no offense at all.  Along with I don't believe there is any one perfect swing, there is NO CLUB THAT YOU "SHOULD" HIT OFF THE TEE. 

I'm not sure where you play regularly but many par 4's I play on my local courses are in the 310-370 yard range.  If you can hit a 4, 5, 6 iron off a tee and get 180-200 yards out of them and get into less trouble, then you would not have a long iron into the green. On a 350 yard par 4 if you can hit an iron or other club which you can avoid trouble with more often than your driver and get 200 yards out of it then you have 150 into the green. I thought I saw 140-150 for a 7 iron for you.  So you're likely looking at 4 or 5 iron, and then 7 iron into the green.  Chip is right I am saying this will lead to improved score if you avoid clubs that are getting you into trouble because you feel you "should" be hitting them.

He is correct.  Think strategically.  Think 5 stokes a hole is a 90.  As you improve you can think pars, and birdies.  Picture it this way. Bogey 4 par 5's = 24.  Bogey 4 par 3's= 16 Total 40.  Bogey 10 par 4's= 50 Total (90).  So with these scores you simply have to par one par 4 to break 90.  Now throw a par on a par 3 in.  Now you can throw a double on a par 5, and still break 90.  It is not getting into trouble however you can accomplish that on shorter easier par 4's and not taking 6's on them which is going to make the difference.  Play strategically for 5's, and avoid trouble and clubs that get you into trouble and I have every faith that you will quickly break 90.

Avoid this on par 5's: Driver in trees, punch out, now I have to recover...topped 3 wood,  4th short, 5 on  3 putt 8.  Now that's assuming your tee shot didn't cost you a stroke, or that you were able to get back to the fairway with one shot.  I would suggest this.

5 iron 170 yards.   5 iron, 5 iron, 5 iron and you are on or next to the green on a 510 yard par 5. 2 putt par, or chip on and two putt 6. If its a 490 yard par 5 then it would likely be 5i, 5i, 7i, and you've covered the distance without pulling a club you likely don't hit as consistently as 5 iron and 7 iron.  Avoid big numbers by using clubs you can more consistently hit well.  

      

  Chip was correct in his interpretation of my advice.

I would say i hit my driver better than my 5 iron. Its not that I hit my 5 iron poorly, but i am not that bad off the tee with a driver. I can go on streaks of like 10 drives in and near the fairway in a round.

Where I lose shots are:

• Bunkers - Generally don't get out in 1, lucky to get out in 2, sometimes take 3 or 4 to get out
• I go on streaks of bad short game shots. its not that my short game is really bad overall, but when one bad shot comes, then it comes consecutively and leads to blow ups
• Sometimes too many 3 putts. my putting gets iffy when the greens are lightning fast

[Stuka44]

10 hours ago, dlow206 said:

I would say i hit my driver better than my 5 iron. Its not that I hit my 5 iron poorly, but i am not that bad off the tee with a driver. I can go on streaks of like 10 drives in and near the fairway in a round.

Where I lose shots are:

• Bunkers - Generally don't get out in 1, lucky to get out in 2, sometimes take 3 or 4 to get out
• I go on streaks of bad short game shots. its not that my short game is really bad overall, but when one bad shot comes, then it comes consecutively and leads to blow ups
• Sometimes too many 3 putts. my putting gets iffy when the greens are lightning fast

Understood, then I would say you are 95 % of the way there.  The things you list really don't have anything to do with swing thoughts, or that need to change or work on your swing.  These are practice area  things that need practice to become more consistent with.  I think you will succeed shortly.  I would just encourage you to avoid thoughts about clubs you "should" hit or things you "should" do on a golf course. There really is no such thing.  Hit clubs and shots that are more likely than others to avoid a negative result.

I played Sunday, and excluding par 3's, on the other 14 holes I hit driver on 6 holes, 4 par 5's, and 2 par 4's (one 390, one 400).  I hit less than driver off the tee on the other 8 par 4's, to reduce the chances of getting into trouble.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 8, 2021 by stuka44
add

[dlow206]

5 hours ago, stuka44 said:

Understood, then I would say you are 95 % of the way there.  The things you list really don't have anything to do with swing thoughts, or that need to change or work on your swing.  These are practice area  things that need practice to become more consistent with.  I think you will succeed shortly.  I would just encourage you to avoid thoughts about clubs you "should" hit or things you "should" do on a golf course. There really is no such thing.  Hit clubs and shots that are more likely than others to avoid a negative result.

I played Sunday, and excluding par 3's, on the other 14 holes I hit driver on 6 holes, 4 par 5's, and 2 par 4's (one 390, one 400).  I hit less than driver off the tee on the other 8 par 4's, to reduce the chances of getting into trouble.

 

 

 

 

Thanks, I definitely have some work to do on short game. If I can get out of the bunker most of the time in 1, that will for sure save a couple of strokes. It doesn't even have to be a good shot, just need to get better at getting out as a first step.

And if i can figure out green speeds, i think i can start to reduce 3 putts. I pretty much play at one course, so not knowing the green speeds is not a good excuse for me. The greens pretty much play fast or ultra fast, unless its late fall/winter with heavy rains. When the greens are ultra fast, i have to tell myself to hit the ball like 60% of what i think i should. 

[cnosil]

31 minutes ago, dlow206 said:

And if i can figure out green speeds, i think i can start to reduce 3 putts. I pretty much play at one course, so not knowing the green speeds is not a good excuse for me. The greens pretty much play fast or ultra fast, unless its late fall/winter with heavy rains. When the greens are ultra fast, i have to tell myself to hit the ball like 60% of what i think i should. 

Playing the Same course all the time you should have the speed figured out. How do you control the distance a putt goes? 

[dlow206]

2 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Playing the Same course all the time you should have the speed figured out. How do you control the distance a putt goes? 

I don't have a system or anything like that for controlling the distance, so all by feel i guess. 

I definitely should have the speed figured out. Somehow, my playing buddies and I are always amazed at how fast the greens are sometimes, but we should all know better. I think for us here at my club, we start to adjust better once the weather is consistently dry in the summer. 

[cnosil]

4 minutes ago, dlow206 said:

I don't have a system or anything like that for controlling the distance, so all by feel i guess. 

I definitely should have the speed figured out. Somehow, my playing buddies and I are always amazed at how fast the greens are sometimes, but we should all know better. I think for us here at my club, we start to adjust better once the weather is consistently dry in the summer. 

IMO, feel is something that is learned.  People always say thinks I don’t thing about mechanics when throwing a baseball; that is true, but to throw a baseball 40:feet you have to build those feels through repetition.  For putting you need to practice rolling the ball specific distances… how far do I move my hands or the head of the putter to roll the ball specific distances.  For me I move the putter head specific distances and always keep the same tempo.  For example a 10 for putt moves the putter back to my big toe,  20 feet is just outside my right foot, etc.   once on the course I know what it feels like to move the putter that far so I just do it without the mechanical thoughts.  

when you go to another course you try rolling a 10 foot putt and see how far the ball goes.  If it is short of 10 feet the greens are slower and you need a bigger stroke. F farther then you need to use a smaller stroke.  
 

practice by doing ladder drills.   Focus on being able to roll the ball a specific distance as speed dictates a lot of the decision process about putting.  

[Shapotomous]

56 minutes ago, dlow206 said:

....When the greens are ultra fast, i have to tell myself to hit the ball like 60% of what i think i should. 

I play different courses and when I find myself not adjusting well to fast greens I will hit the ball a little toward the toe on the putter.  It works for me to take a little speed off when my brain / stroke refuses to adjust.  

I have been playing a course with slower greens a lot this year using the Heppler Fetch which is a heavy putter.  I think more drastic action will be needed if I play really fast greens and I have a plan to switch to a lighter putter that i regularly use on the home green which runs about a 12 - 13 on the meter.

Maybe you need to shop for a lighter putter!  It's not that I want to put temptation in your path, I think it might be necessary!! 

[edingc]

5 minutes ago, cnosil said:

IMO, feel is something that is learned.  People always say thinks I don’t thing about mechanics when throwing a baseball; that is true, but to throw a baseball 40:feet you have to build those feels through repetition.  For putting you need to practice rolling the ball specific distances… how far do I move my hands or the head of the putter to roll the ball specific distances.  For me I move the putter head specific distances and always keep the same tempo.  For example a 10 for putt moves the putter back to my big toe,  20 feet is just outside my right foot, etc.   once on the course I know what it feels like to move the putter that far so I just do it without the mechanical thoughts.  

when you go to another course you try rolling a 10 foot putt and see how far the ball goes.  If it is short of 10 feet the greens are slower and you need a bigger stroke. F farther then you need to use a smaller stroke.  
 

practice by doing ladder drills.   Focus on being able to roll the ball a specific distance as speed dictates a lot of the decision process about putting.  

Sage advice! I was just rewatching some DECADE stuff and as Scott says, being a good putter is all about controlling speed. Having the EXPUTT is great for this.

I don't spend a ton of time on the practice green before rounds, but what I usually do is walk off a 10 foot and 20 foot putt and hit at least 2-3 of each to calibrate speed. Once I've got that, then it's just a matter of keeping that feel throughout the round.

@dlow206 sounds like you are making some good progress with the new instructor and grip. I think your plan of improving your bunker play and eliminating those wasted shots is going to make a big difference in your scores.

[dlow206]

27 minutes ago, cnosil said:

IMO, feel is something that is learned.  People always say thinks I don’t thing about mechanics when throwing a baseball; that is true, but to throw a baseball 40:feet you have to build those feels through repetition.  For putting you need to practice rolling the ball specific distances… how far do I move my hands or the head of the putter to roll the ball specific distances.  For me I move the putter head specific distances and always keep the same tempo.  For example a 10 for putt moves the putter back to my big toe,  20 feet is just outside my right foot, etc.   once on the course I know what it feels like to move the putter that far so I just do it without the mechanical thoughts.  

when you go to another course you try rolling a 10 foot putt and see how far the ball goes.  If it is short of 10 feet the greens are slower and you need a bigger stroke. F farther then you need to use a smaller stroke.  
 

practice by doing ladder drills.   Focus on being able to roll the ball a specific distance as speed dictates a lot of the decision process about putting.  

Thanks, this is really helpful, i've never really given any thought to how far back my putter moves in regards to specific distances, besides the obvious that it needs to go farther for longer distances. 

20 minutes ago, Shapotomous said:

I play different courses and when I find myself not adjusting well to fast greens I will hit the ball a little toward the toe on the putter.  It works for me to take a little speed off when my brain / stroke refuses to adjust.  

I have been playing a course with slower greens a lot this year using the Heppler Fetch which is a heavy putter.  I think more drastic action will be needed if I play really fast greens and I have a plan to switch to a lighter putter that i regularly use on the home green which runs about a 12 - 13 on the meter.

Maybe you need to shop for a lighter putter!  It's not that I want to put temptation in your path, I think it might be necessary!! 

I've heard heavier putter for faster greens. Anyone, not going to concern myself with that LOL, just putt with one putter.

20 minutes ago, edingc said:

Sage advice! I was just rewatching some DECADE stuff and as Scott says, being a good putter is all about controlling speed. Having the EXPUTT is great for this.

I don't spend a ton of time on the practice green before rounds, but what I usually do is walk off a 10 foot and 20 foot putt and hit at least 2-3 of each to calibrate speed. Once I've got that, then it's just a matter of keeping that feel throughout the round.

@dlow206 sounds like you are making some good progress with the new instructor and grip. I think your plan of improving your bunker play and eliminating those wasted shots is going to make a big difference in your scores.

Thanks, the in-person lesson was something that couldn't have been replicated via an online lesson. During the in-person lesson, even though the instructor showed me how he wanted my hands on the club, it took him physically readjusting my hands multiple times over the course of the lesson to get it right. I guess sometimes, see and replicate doesn't always work for me, sometimes i need the instructor to physically put in my in a position to feel it for example. 

In all my other in-person lessons, they never mention anything about my grip, so I ask and they say it either looks fine or maybe its a little too strong. This lesson we literally spent like 20 minutes on grip.