Taylormade SIM drivers - Thoughts?

[null]

4 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

As Ian explained the monitors don’t always rea speed the same for every head and the different shapes of m5 and sim could cause different readings and he’s more interested in the output rather than the input which is why when you look at ball speed increase with better standard deviation, consistent spin and a more stable head Matt gained 10 yards, basically eliminated one side of the course all of which come a YOY comparison sim is significantly better than m5

Our own Tony Covey stated awhile ago that manufactures were aware of how different launch monitors read head speed and that they could even manipulate the head in terms of color/finish and shape to make the monitor read slower or faster and thus influence the smash factor. 

Tony's point? Only ballspeed matters

[J.B. TexasEx]

1 minute ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

As Ian explained the monitors don’t always rea speed the same for every head and the different shapes of m5 and sim could cause different readings and he’s more interested in the output rather than the input which is why when you look at ball speed increase with better standard deviation, consistent spin and a more stable head Matt gained 10 yards, basically eliminated one side of the course all of which come a YOY comparison sim is significantly better than m5

10 yards for a 117 mph swinger.

Matt's faster than the average PGA Tour pro who clocks at 113 mph, last I checked. For a 90 mph swinger it'll be, what, 3-6 yards? 10 yards isn't a full club difference for Matt and the faster swingers on Tour. It's a half-club, maybe, for regular guys.

You're making a good argument for those who swing faster than 117 mph, though. TM's PGA staffers shouldn't have a difficult time making the switch and upgrading to the new tech. TM's tour van should have them dialed in - no problem.

[RickyBobby_PR]

15 minutes ago, J.B. TexasEx said:

10 yards for a 117 mph swinger.

Matt's faster than the average PGA Tour pro who clocks at 113 mph, last I checked. For a 90 mph swinger it'll be, what, 3-6 yards? 10 yards isn't a full club difference for Matt and the faster swingers on Tour. It's a half-club, maybe, for regular guys.

You're making a good argument for those who swing faster than 117 mph, though. TM's PGA staffers shouldn't have a difficult time making the switch and upgrading to the new tech. TM's tour van should have them dialed in - no problem.

The results are going to vary from person to person and a golfer swinging 90 might or be a fit for the sim. It’s another reason companies offer various models so that they cover all the golfers. I’ve seen on other sites that people have gained 1-3 mph is clubhead speed or ball speed depending on who was posting. 
 

TXG is going to do an m6 to sim max comparison. This will be where we can see how a design that is more beneficial to slower speeds compares to the previous year. Ian and Matt both think that the difference between those two heads will be closer to each other than the m5 and SIM are. The facts in the TXG video show that from the m5 to the sim there were improvements made. But as TXG, MGS and various others always say go test for yourself and get fit. 
 

 

[J.B. TexasEx]

Just now, RickyBobby_PR said:

The results are going to vary from person to person and a golfer swinging 90 might or be a fit for the sim. It’s another reason companies offer various models so that they cover all the golfers. I’ve seen on other sites that people have gained 1-3 mph is clubhead speed or ball speed depending on who was posting. 
 

TXG is going to do an m6 to sim max comparison. This will be where we can see how a design that is more beneficial to slower speeds compares to the previous year. Ian and Matt both think that the difference between those two heads will be closer to each other than the m5 and SIM are. The facts in the TXG video show that from the m5 to the sim there were improvements made. But as TXG, MGS and various others always say go test for yourself and get fit. 

I have no doubts the new tech helps, I'm just saying it's marginal for the 90 mph, regular guy.

Does TM sponsor TXG's channel? Or are they truly brand agnostic, too, like MGS? Just curious, because I'm surprised they had the TM engineer on their channel.

[FrogginBullfish]

Ian did work as a fitter for TaylorMade for awhile but TXG is brand agnostic. They've also had Chris Voshall from Mizuno on the channel on multiple occasions.

I have no doubts the new tech helps, I'm just saying it's marginal for the 90 mph, regular guy.

Does TM sponsor TXG's channel? Or are they truly brand agnostic, too, like MGS? Just curious, because I'm surprised they had the TM engineer on their channel.

 

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[TR1PTIK]

56 minutes ago, J.B. TexasEx said:

I don't believe driver tech makes quantum leaps YOY. The SIM may be marginally more "forgiving" than the M5, but I'd rather see the results from Iron Byron - a swing we know is gonna repeat damn near every time. Even TXG's Matty can't match the robot's consistency.

Robot testing would likely only do an even better job of showing gains over M5 as that’s part of how these clubs are tested at the OEM and where a lot of the marketing claims come from. What really matters though is how golfers swing the club because nobody is out teeing it up with a robot.

You are correct though. Year over year improvements are typically quite marginal - especially for slower swing speeds. That doesn’t mean an individual golfer won’t see significantly better results. It just means they shouldn’t expect it.

Edited January 8, 2020 by TR1PTIK

[RickyBobby_PR]

28 minutes ago, J.B. TexasEx said:

I have no doubts the new tech helps, I'm just saying it's marginal for the 90 mph, regular guy.

Does TM sponsor TXG's channel? Or are they truly brand agnostic, too, like MGS? Just curious, because I'm surprised they had the TM engineer on their channel.

That’s why it’s up to the individual to test to see what the gains are for themselves but using a thing like swing speed as a basis for judging anything is somewhat silly. There is a lot more that goes into how the ball flies thru the air. Not every 90mph golfer swings the same or delivers the club the same. Just like every person swing 105 doesn’t have the same swing. Contact location, aoa, face to patch, dynamic loft, spin loft all play a role in the end results. 

I can tell you new tech isn’t marginal for 90 mph swingers. There’s guys on this forum I know and others I play with or have seen fit that have seen distance and/or dispersion improvement with new tech. 

[J.B. TexasEx]

11 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

I can tell you new tech isn’t marginal for 90 mph swingers. There’s guys on this forum I know and others I play with or have seen fit that have seen distance and/or dispersion improvement with new tech. 

Okay, but I'm saying the gains are "marginal" trading up from TM's M5 to the SIM.

Based on articles I've read here and elsewhere, the CORs for modern driver clubfaces are maxed out. Gains can now only be made by added "forgiveness" and, to your point, tighter dispersions.

[JonMUSC08]

Curious, has any reviewer (youtube, internet, etc) ever come out and said the newest driver (any brand) is not as good as the year before?

[GolfSpy BOS]

It's starting to seem to me that this SIM might be different enough that it can be significantly better (or worse) for certain players than the M5 due to the seemingly large change in CG and MOI.

If I recall the initial Driver CG primer MGS talks about how a brand might tend to all be in the same ball part for CG and MOI (Think PING G30, G400, G410 are all around the same area on the CG NA charts (shift along the MOI line)  It seems this SIM is going to be closer to where the Cobra f9 is which is significantly different than the M5.  One was High CG vs Low CG on the chart.  The SIM seems like it is a change in design theory within Taylormade.

Titleist did this when they went from the 917 line to the TS2 line as well.  The article suggests that players may perform better with drivers in the same relative area as another good performer, so maybe that is the case with the SIM vs M5.

If the reports are true about needing to "loft up" and still getting low spin this might be too low/low for me compared to the M5.  I hit the 10.5 M5 two notches up in loft the best.  And my spin was in the low 2000's there! haha

Either way, I'll give it a swing to see for myself... the G30 has got to get kicked out of the bag as some point! 

 

[cnosil]

Okay, but I'm saying the gains are "marginal" trading up from TM's M5 to the SIM

Hard to impossible to make that a blanket statement. Some people may see losses, some no change, and some improvement. Depends on how well the driver fits the player. This is independent of the player having gone through a fitting or just picking the club off the rack.

[TR1PTIK]

TXG has the SIM Max vs M6 video up. Matty gained ball speed with a mild drop in spin, but a much closer comparison IMO. Ball flights and groupings were very similar. I think this driver just made the short list if I get the chance to do some bag upgrades this year.

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, J.B. TexasEx said:

Okay, but I'm saying the gains are "marginal" trading up from TM's M5 to the SIM.

Based on articles I've read here and elsewhere, the CORs for modern driver clubfaces are maxed out. Gains can now only be made by added "forgiveness" and, to your point, tighter dispersions.

That will vary from user to user Iike any other driver from any brand. Some will see significant distance increases like Matt. Some may see little ones like Rick Shiels. Also what is considered significant for one may not be for another...a 3 yard increase may be worth it for one person to upgrade while someone else says that’s not enough to spend money on.

the other thing as talked about is that speed/distance gains aren’t always where improvements can or will be seen. Look at the txg video and see how much the standard deviation improved from m5 to sim. That improves the consistency of ball flight which I’m sure the vast majority of golfers will take.

matt also eliminated one side of the course by upgrading and again that’s something the vast majority of golfers would take. Making. A statement the gains are marginal is a pretty wide net to cast and like many things in golf generalizing isn’t a good thing as things vary by golfer. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, TR1PTIK said:

TXG has the SIM Max vs M6 video up. Matty gained ball speed with a mild drop in spin, but a much closer comparison IMO. Ball flights and groupings were very similar. I think this driver just made the short list if I get the chance to do some bag upgrades this year.

Another good video from them. It was in my very short list and is still there. 

[GolfSpy BOS]

Just to try and illustrate what I was talking about earlier...



I’m guessing we see the SIM lineup moves well away from the M3/M5,
And maybe even lower than the M6.

At the very least it looks like MOI has been increased significantly with the improved stability, so maybe more towards PINGs circle.


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[RickyBobby_PR]

11 minutes ago, B.Boston said:

Just to try and illustrate what I was talking about earlier...



I’m guessing we see the SIM lineup moves well away from the M3/M5,
And maybe even lower than the M6.

At the very least it looks like MOI has been increased significantly with the improved stability, so maybe more towards PINGs circle.


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Numbers, charts, graphs, handicaps, swing speeds, etc are great and all but it boils down to the the individual swinging the club. 
 

You could take 2 guys with same handicap or swing speed but swing the club entirely different and see different results. The guys that are doing the most wanted testing see it, I’ve seen it on the course with friends and random pairings. 

[cnosil]

The SIM and SIM max were in my most wanted testing rotation today.   Swing was doing pretty well today and speeds were in the 105-108 range.  Also included were XXIO and Srixon 785.   No real ball speed advantage from what I could tell.   The SIM launches high and we had to turn down the loft to get good launch angle.  Sound was very much like a thud which I didn't like.   Overall a nice driver and it would be something I would put in the possibility pile when doing more detailed analysis.  

[GolfSpy BOS]

The SIM and SIM max were in my most wanted testing rotation today.   Swing was doing pretty well today and speeds were in the 105-108 range.  Also included were XXIO and Srixon 785.   No real ball speed advantage from what I could tell.   The SIM launches high and we had to turn down the loft to get good launch angle.  Sound was very much like a thud which I didn't like.   Overall a nice driver and it would be something I would put in the possibility pile when doing more detailed analysis.  

 

Interesting... the SIM wasn’t low launching? I thought Matty at TXG was hitting it in 10.5 to get his launch up, but spin stayed down.

 

I think I’d like the thud sound. Wish I lived closer and could be a tester!

 

 

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[cnosil]

11 minutes ago, B.Boston said:

 

Interesting... the SIM wasn’t low launching? I thought Matty at TXG was hitting it in 10.5 to get his launch up, but spin stayed down.

I think I’d like the thud sound. Wish I lived closer and could be a tester!

Probably depends on AoA and where we hit it on the face.   I am generally pretty level and hit the ball high on the face.  Harry mentioned he dropped it down to 7 degrees and then we bumped it up a little but definitely sub 9*.   The sounds to me was just off.  

[PMookie]

Hit it today. Very consistent ball speed and smash, and SURPRISINGLY forgiving! I had a few I thought were way left or right off the face and, NOPE! Nice club.

Set it down next to M5 and the SIM DEFINITELY sits much more square. Really nice looking.

 

 

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[Quigleyd]

I have not been a fan of TM for a long time. I am very surprised at this driver. I am always a bit skeptical to marketing stories, but I think this one has some legs to it. The M5 and M6 were both very slow for me in terms of ball speeds. This is very much the opposite. It works. 

[Smellis745]

I was able to hit the SIM today. Really liked it. Sound, to my ear, is similar to the M5/6 in that it’s more of a muted crack, where my hot melted M3 still has a little bit of the plink sound. As far as feel, the best way to describe it vs my M3 is solid. Not that the M3 isn’t, something about the SIM was just different. All in all, it’ll be at the top of my list when it’s tome to see if there’s anything better.

 

 

 

[pozzit]

On 1/10/2020 at 1:41 PM, Smellis745 said:

I was able to hit the SIM today. Really liked it. Sound, to my ear, is similar to the M5/6 in that it’s more of a muted crack, where my hot melted M3 still has a little bit of the plink sound. As far as feel, the best way to describe it vs my M3 is solid. Not that the M3 isn’t, something about the SIM was just different. All in all, it’ll be at the top of my list when it’s tome to see if there’s anything better.

How did it feel and perform when you hit it?

[ZenGolfer]

Ugly.  It looks and sounds to me like nothing more than gimmicks and marketing hype.

[Golfspy_CG2]

29 minutes ago, ZenGolfer said:

Ugly.  It looks and sounds to me like nothing more than gimmicks and marketing hype.

Interesting to make such a solid opinon without seeing it in person or hitting it.  Sounds like some preconceived anti TaylorMade bias going on.  

[ZenGolfer]

Interesting to make such a solid opinon without seeing it in person or hitting it.  Sounds like some preconceived anti TaylorMade bias going on.  

Perhaps a bit. I'd love to see them prove me wrong though.

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[Golfspy_CG2]

13 minutes ago, ZenGolfer said:

Perhaps a bit. I'd love to see them prove me wrong though.

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Go hit it. You never know.  I havent owned a TM driver since the R15.  But I am going to demo this one. It has me intriqued from some of the reviews I've watched and read. 

[ZenGolfer]

Go hit it. You never know.  I havent owned a TM driver since the R15.  But I am going to demo this one. It has me intriqued from some of the reviews I've watched and read. 

Or you could just buy a Cobra King F9. Pretty much the same thing.

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[PMookie]

Ugly.  It looks and sounds to me like nothing more than gimmicks and marketing hype.

It’s not... I’ve hit it.


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[RickyBobby_PR]

8 hours ago, ZenGolfer said:

Ugly.  It looks and sounds to me like nothing more than gimmicks and marketing hype.

What’s marketing hype? Have you seen any reviews on the driver? 

7 hours ago, ZenGolfer said:

Perhaps a bit. I'd love to see them prove me wrong though.

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You can go to pretty much any store and test it yourself.

6 hours ago, ZenGolfer said:

Or you could just buy a Cobra King F9. Pretty much the same thing.

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Another hot taje with zero proof.