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Taylormade SIM drivers - Thoughts?


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4 hours ago, TR1PTIK said:

I think it’s a pretty good one. The SIM MAX vs M6 is good too.

It doesn’t prove much of anything about the exact marketing claims Taylormade is making, but there are noticeable improvements in ball flight and ball speed.

I just watched it and its getting good results but maybe I missed how fast he was swinging? they didn't show clubhead speed in relation to ball speed so its hard to determine if he was swinging the SIM max faster than the M6? watching sim vs m5 now

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I wonder if people are underwhelmed when car companies release a car model every year. Or phone every year. Or anything every year.  This isn't about drastic improvements over the previous year.

I guess I'll just post my first impressions in this thread instead of making another thread with the same subject matter. My driver swing is still kinda in the dumps, but I will say that SIM Max

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16 minutes ago, Tsecor said:

I just watched it and its getting good results but maybe I missed how fast he was swinging? they didn't show clubhead speed in relation to ball speed so its hard to determine if he was swinging the SIM max faster than the M6? watching sim vs m5 now

They didn’t go into a deep discussion on it, but they mentioned in the video that the lunch monitor can register club speed differently based on the shape of the head which is why they didn’t focus on that. That’s why I said before that the video doesn’t quite back up Taylormade’s marketing claim - they’re primary claim being increased club speed from about the 9 o’clock position down through impact.

I personally think increased club speed due to aerodynamics is going to be quite marginal year over year. However, I think (as Matty and Ian note in the videos at their studio and during their visit at The Kingdom) that the new shape and CG configuration has produced a more stable club leading to more consistent ball speeds. Hence, the reason for Matty’s increase in ball speed which also saw a 1.3MPH (if I remember correctly) improvement in standard deviation.

Just my thoughts.

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7 minutes ago, TR1PTIK said:

They didn’t go into a deep discussion on it, but they mentioned in the video that the lunch monitor can register club speed differently based on the shape of the head which is why they didn’t focus on that. That’s why I said before that the video doesn’t quite back up Taylormade’s marketing claim - they’re primary claim being increased club speed from about the 9 o’clock position down through impact.

I personally think increased club speed due to aerodynamics is going to be quite marginal year over year. However, I think (as Matty and Ian note in the videos at their studio and during their visit at The Kingdom) that the new shape and CG configuration has produced a more stable club leading to more consistent ball speeds. Hence, the reason for Matty’s increase in ball speed which also saw a 1.3MPH (if I remember correctly) improvement in standard deviation.

Just my thoughts.

yea, that sounds about right.

The biggest thing I take from it is the "stability" of the head. This is the one reason why I do not play TM drivers.  have tried 2 different models over the years and always felt like the head was very unstable. I always thought it was just me but now this video make me feel a bit better. lol

 

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That is correct sir. But for the sake of this discussion, we are somewhat debating marketing and cost vs gains....its a little bit of everything. My point was based off of many years of trying the newest and greatest driver to come out and I still hit my 910 D3 better than all of them...or at least the same....that why I mention the marketing angle.....hey, they have to sell clubs after all right?  And we all know the public (us) is a sucker for a shiny new toy. 
But yes, id love to go to a demo day as you described. Im sure its a blast. I could probably spend all day at an event like that

So much fun! My back hurts for days after [emoji23]. My biggest thing about the SIM “reviews” so far is that only TXG (from those I’ve seen) covered the technical aspects of the head with TM, and then when they truly tested it vs M5, they built both of them to the same exact specs, and tested what the engineer had told them was different. They gave the numbers on dispersion, showed the standard deviation, showed the results from a shot hit high on the face and how it kept its spin up. Shiels only did ball speed and distance. Same with Crossfield. So, my point is that unless folks test what the company said they improved in the head and where we’d see differences, then the review, or opinion, is moot. No, we all won’t see significant gains, but TXG even says this... For Matt Blois, though, to pick-up TEN yards vs M5 AND reduce dispersion, and standard deviation, that’s HUGE! A guy that has the perfect fitting at his disposal shouldn’t see those types of gains. To me, his gains DO show the club is special. Especially when the two clubs were identically built..... That’s huge.





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18 minutes ago, PMookie said:


So much fun! My back hurts for days after emoji23.png. My biggest thing about the SIM “reviews” so far is that only TXG (from those I’ve seen) covered the technical aspects of the head with TM, and then when they truly tested it vs M5, they built both of them to the same exact specs, and tested what the engineer had told them was different. They gave the numbers on dispersion, showed the standard deviation, showed the results from a shot hit high on the face and how it kept its spin up. Shiels only did ball speed and distance. Same with Crossfield. So, my point is that unless folks test what the company said they improved in the head and where we’d see differences, then the review, or opinion, is moot. No, we all won’t see significant gains, but TXG even says this... For Matt Blois, though, to pick-up TEN yards vs M5 AND reduce dispersion, and standard deviation, that’s HUGE! A guy that has the perfect fitting at his disposal shouldn’t see those types of gains. To me, his gains DO show the club is special. Especially when the two clubs were identically built..... That’s huge.





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there is just so many factors that go into it but to me, and maybe im wrong, it just seems like ignoring clubhead speed is big. by his own admission he didn't like the feel of the M5 and its unstable platform. this is why id like to see robot testing to truly compare apples to apples but on the surface the SIM's look to be just as good or better than all the other drivers out there.

I wanna see the new cobra

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6 minutes ago, Tsecor said:

 this is why id like to see robot testing to truly compare apples to apples

Then you want OEM marketing information as that is primarily based on robot testing. 

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20 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Then you want OEM marketing information as that is primarily based on robot testing. 

I didn't say that at all in relation to OEM marketing.

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28 minutes ago, Tsecor said:

there is just so many factors that go into it but to me, and maybe im wrong, it just seems like ignoring clubhead speed is big. by his own admission he didn't like the feel of the M5 and its unstable platform. this is why id like to see robot testing to truly compare apples to apples but on the surface the SIM's look to be just as good or better than all the other drivers out there.

I wanna see the new cobra

As Ian says club head speed is just input and he’s more interested in the output data which is ball speed and the launch characteristics. 
 

club head speed is only one aspect to things. Two guys with the same club head speed and 2 different aoa and club path are going to see different results 

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23 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Then you want OEM marketing information as that is primarily based on robot testing. 

I’ve seen TaylorMade post in other forums saying they use robot testing, tour staff feedback, regulars testers and their fittings data to help design their clubs. 
 

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Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

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2 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

As Ian says club head speed is just input and he’s more interested in the output data which is ball speed and the launch characteristics. 
 

club head speed is only one aspect to things. Two guys with the same club head speed and 2 different aoa and club path are going to see different results 

lol. that's what is silly though......output is the result of input and clubhead speed is a main input to determine ball speeds so ignoring that main factor could easily show the results between two different clubs....per your 2nd point.  this is why id like to see an apples to apples comparison on a robot. Make all inputs the same and see what comes out on the other side.

I try other brands...keep coming back to Titleist....why??

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there is just so many factors that go into it but to me, and maybe im wrong, it just seems like ignoring clubhead speed is big. by his own admission he didn't like the feel of the M5 and its unstable platform. this is why id like to see robot testing to truly compare apples to apples but on the surface the SIM's look to be just as good or better than all the other drivers out there. I wanna see the new cobra

 

Issue with clubhead speed was addressed by Ian: the two most used machines have difficulty measuring it accurately, therefore it’s inaccurate.

 

Same here! I want to test the Cobra “Tour Length”!!!!

 

 

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7 hours ago, Tsecor said:

lol. that's what is silly though......output is the result of input and clubhead speed is a main input to determine ball speeds so ignoring that main factor could easily show the results between two different clubs....per your 2nd point.  this is why id like to see an apples to apples comparison on a robot. Make all inputs the same and see what comes out on the other side.

He’s not ignoring it he’s staying the unreliability to it. Also clubhead speed doesn’t equate to ball speed/distance due to the other factors of club delivery. 
 

cnosil already touched on it but seeing robot testing is pretty much how all brands test everything and make the claims of what improvements are seen so you had that already in the marketing material and TM listed in their claims on the website when talking about the new tech the increased speed has come thru player testing. As has been mentioned by several in this thread go test and see if it works for you or not to see if what marketing claims (which is based on information giving them from he engineers) is true or not.

Everyone loves to knock marketing with out any individual testing and want to see X or Y type testing, then knock that testing because it didn’t include A,B or C

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

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Its been a good 5-6 years since the claims of 17 yards longer from TaylorMade, Callaway claiming irons were two clubs longer beige having to back off that campaign. I’m pretty sure every golfer whether they are the more golf educated ones on forums/social media or the avg Joe weekend warrior knows that if all marketing was true everyone would be hitting drivers 100 yards further at this point, but we aren’t. We know marketing has to tell a story to get attention to a product regardless of what segment of consumer goods it is. And it’s on the consumer to determine if the marketing claims match what the product does and if it does match is the price worth the amount of improvement. 

For some a slight increase in distance of 3-5 yards might be enough, for others they need to see 10+ yards. This will be harder for those who are consistent in strike pattern and have been properly fit.

I’ve seen plenty of people at demo days whose only concern is does this club go further than my current one, no care in the world if the lofts, lie, length play any role in the reason go for the added distance.

then there’s the golfer that knows they a good fitting they may be able to squeak out a few extra yards and probably improve dispersion so that small so they look at what improved one or both of those areas.

Theres all kinds of golfers out there and marketing has to get their attention to possibly come try their product. 
 

 

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Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

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Issue with clubhead speed was addressed by Ian: the two most used machines have difficulty measuring it accurately, therefore it’s inaccurate.  
Same here! I want to test the Cobra “Tour Length”!!!!
 
 
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I play my ping at 44.5 so the tour length is something I want to swing too. Don’t think I’ll go longer than 45 again.


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4 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

He’s not ignoring it he’s staying the unreliability to it. Also clubhead speed doesn’t equate to ball speed/distance due to the other factors of club delivery. 
 

cnosil already touched on it but seeing robot testing is pretty much how all brands test everything and make the claims of what improvements are seen so you had that already in the marketing material and TM listed in their claims on the website when talking about the new tech the increased speed has come thru player testing. As has been mentioned by several in this thread go test and see if it works for you or not to see if what marketing claims (which is based on information giving them from he engineers) is true or not.

Everyone loves to knock marketing with out any individual testing and want to see X or Y type testing, then knock that testing because it didn’t include A,B or C

This is my point.

Data from Trackman concluded "The most important factor in increasing carry distance is clubhead speed. For every 1 mph you can add to your swing speed you stand to gain almost 3 yards"

That is ONE factor as we know, so its very relevant. Since those guys are using the same monitor for all their testing and even though head shape can factor in, the speed gain related to shape is so minimal, its really a non factor.

of course everything else you mentioned is also a factor, but you HAVE to include club head speed in a comparison test to really show the true differences of the two clubs you are comparing. Its just too much of a factor to not include.

I try other brands...keep coming back to Titleist....why??

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2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Its been a good 5-6 years since the claims of 17 yards longer from TaylorMade, Callaway claiming irons were two clubs longer beige having to back off that campaign. I’m pretty sure every golfer whether they are the more golf educated ones on forums/social media or the avg Joe weekend warrior knows that if all marketing was true everyone would be hitting drivers 100 yards further at this point, but we aren’t. We know marketing has to tell a story to get attention to a product regardless of what segment of consumer goods it is. And it’s on the consumer to determine if the marketing claims match what the product does and if it does match is the price worth the amount of improvement. 

For some a slight increase in distance of 3-5 yards might be enough, for others they need to see 10+ yards. This will be harder for those who are consistent in strike pattern and have been properly fit.

I’ve seen plenty of people at demo days whose only concern is does this club go further than my current one, no care in the world if the lofts, lie, length play any role in the reason go for the added distance.

then there’s the golfer that knows they a good fitting they may be able to squeak out a few extra yards and probably improve dispersion so that small so they look at what improved one or both of those areas.

Theres all kinds of golfers out there and marketing has to get their attention to possibly come try their product. 
 

 

so true. I play with guys who talk only length and claim they hit it 300 (when im not there of course) and they will spray their driver all over the course. Length is their only concern. When I say "If you hit it 5 yards shorter but play from the fairway, your scores may end up being better". They basically mock the shorter distances and would rather be 30 yards closer to the green...behind a tree....lol

I try other brands...keep coming back to Titleist....why??

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19 minutes ago, Tsecor said:

This is my point.

Data from Trackman concluded "The most important factor in increasing carry distance is clubhead speed. For every 1 mph you can add to your swing speed you stand to gain almost 3 yards"

That is ONE factor as we know, so its very relevant. Since those guys are using the same monitor for all their testing and even though head shape can factor in, the speed gain related to shape is so minimal, its really a non factor.

of course everything else you mentioned is also a factor, but you HAVE to include club head speed in a comparison test to really show the true differences of the two clubs you are comparing. Its just too much of a factor to not include.

Even though they are using the same monitor for all their tests the monitor itself doesn’t read each head the same way so they can’t say if speed differences are due to the club or how the monitor reads it. 

While adding speed can increase distance it’s not a guarantee. I was just watching rick Shiels video on the mavrik. He gained almost 1mph swing speed and lost some ball speed and distance compared to the epic flash.


 

 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

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Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

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13 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Even though they are using the same monitor for all their tests the monitor itself doesn’t read each head the same way so they can’t say if speed differences are due to the club or how the monitor reads it. 

While adding speed can increase distance it’s not a guarantee. I was just watching rick Shiels video on the mavrik. He gained almost 1mph swing speed and lost some ball speed and distance compared to the epic flash.


 

 

as we know its far from an exact science and the marketing stuff gets a bad wrap because the companies don't tell you how they back up their claims...they just say "gain 5 more yards"!!! and we are all like YEA!!! TAKE MY $600!!! lol....we are like pavlov's dog as they say.....ring the bell, watch us salivate!!

I try other brands...keep coming back to Titleist....why??

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10 minutes ago, Tsecor said:

as we know its far from an exact science and the marketing stuff gets a bad wrap because the companies don't tell you how they back up their claims...they just say "gain 5 more yards"!!! and we are all like YEA!!! TAKE MY $600!!! lol....we are like pavlov's dog as they say.....ring the bell, watch us salivate!!

Well TaylorMade right on their website under two different claims have an asterisk that states it’s from players testing. The vast majority do now especially after Callaway was called out on it several years back claiming their irons were two clubs longer and it turns out it was two clubs longer than their own stuff. The educated golfer will know where to go look for it and do their own verification. 
 

as discussed there are others that are going to see added distance from the tech on off center hits and they don’t care if it’s 1 hard further or 10 as long as it goes further. 

 

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Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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This thread in a nutshell

 

Image result for aCtUaLly meme"

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