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Taylormade SIM drivers - Thoughts?


JonMUSC08
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Driver: Mizuno ST190 9.5* Aldila RIP Alpha 60 S
Fairway Wood: Mizuno ST190 15* Fujikura Atmos Blue 6S
Hyrbrid: Mizuno CLK 19* Fujikura Speeder EVO HB
Irons: Bridgestone J40 CB (4-PW) Dynamic Gold Tour Issue X100
Wedges: Bridgestone Tour B XW-1 50*, 54*, & 58* Nippon Modus 3 105
Putter: Cleveland Huntington Beach SOFT Premier 4 34"
Ball: Snell MTB-X
Bag: 2017 Titleist Players 5 Stand Bag

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7 hours ago, cnosil said:

I hit the SIM about 6 times. Looks like the other TM drivers; I don’t personally care what the bottom looks like. Will provide some additional thoughts when it comes into my most wanted testing rotation. My current thought is it isn’t any better or worse than any other driver, If you are just picking it up of the shelf. Comes with a Ventus shaft so people will pick it up simply because Of the shaft. I have been told it is a made for Ventus shaft.

It's really disappointing that it looks and is being called a Ventus shaft when it isn't really A Ventus shaft.  I'm glad that Tony called that out on the main blog.  The article on WRX just states Ventus Blue 6 and Red 5.  No mention of the change in the shaft materials.  THAT is why I started coming here, and while I'll stay with this site.  

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#COBRACONNECT CHALLENGE 4 ALUMNUS

:callaway-small: Epic Max LS 10.5 - Ventus Blue 6x | :cobra-small: Speedzone 5-wood - Ventus Blue 8s | :titelist-small: TSi3 20* Hybrid - KBS Proto 85s

:cobra-small: KING Forged Tec 5-GW - Nippon Modus 120x | :cobra-small: KING MIM Black 52.12C, 56.10V, 60.04W - Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

:EVNROLL: ER2B | :titelist-small: Pro V1x | :918457628_PrecisionPro: NX9 Slope

 

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1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Most of the golfing public won’t know it’s a made for or would they be able to tell the difference between the real deal and the made for. Also the made for market never really died. With the way brands design heads shaft manufacturers have to work with them to get their new designs setup and able to be used with drivers. Tm head and Callaway head have different properties and thus the same shaft may not work in both heads. 
 

ping has been using made for shafts forever. They ping your shaft is built off the elements chrome shaft.

The difference with PING on the tour shafts is that it has PING written all over it, not Elements Chrome.  It's close to the same, but looks different.  Its not pretending to be a Elements Chrome.

When Cally came out with that T800 shaft it looked exactly like the T1100, It was different, but looked the same.  It was pretending to be a T1100.

This Ventus looks like a Ventus, but is missing a lot of the tech in the real Ventus.  Its pretending to be a Ventus.

I think for a lot of people, myself included, its the "Look-alike" examples that need to be corrected with the industry.  Give it its own name, or color, or something to show consumers it is not the same as the one you would get from the shaft manufacturer.  

I agree with you that the general golfing public will have no idea... and that is why a lot of people get upset.  They think they have something they don't.

I think they article that was posted here is fantastic:  https://mygolfspy.com/made-for-shafts-a-closer-look/

 

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#COBRACONNECT CHALLENGE 4 ALUMNUS

:callaway-small: Epic Max LS 10.5 - Ventus Blue 6x | :cobra-small: Speedzone 5-wood - Ventus Blue 8s | :titelist-small: TSi3 20* Hybrid - KBS Proto 85s

:cobra-small: KING Forged Tec 5-GW - Nippon Modus 120x | :cobra-small: KING MIM Black 52.12C, 56.10V, 60.04W - Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

:EVNROLL: ER2B | :titelist-small: Pro V1x | :918457628_PrecisionPro: NX9 Slope

 

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I like what TaylorMade is going for with the SIM line. The sole design could definitely use some smoothing out in my opinion.

I'm more curious why the SIM Max fairways and hybrid aren't getting an adjustable loft/lie sleeve. I don't get that one at all.

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3 hours ago, TR1PTIK said:

Truthfully, most of the golfers out there might not even know the story about Ventus shafts to even care that it’s printed on there. I think it has much more to do with simply matching the appearance of what we see the pros hitting.

I thought MGS published an article on factory shafts a year or two ago that stated Ping shafts were more of a co-engineered type of deal and not quite the standard “made for” agreement. Maybe I’m misremembering again?

It could be for most brands where they tell the shaft companies what they want and they design it off the shaft the brand wants to use. Hzrdus black but not as stout as a example, but from my understanding ping used the elements chrome and then design around that to get the tour shaft then send specs to ust

2 hours ago, B.Boston said:

The difference with PING on the tour shafts is that it has PING written all over it, not Elements Chrome.  It's close to the same, but looks different.  Its not pretending to be a Elements Chrome.

When Cally came out with that T800 shaft it looked exactly like the T1100, It was different, but looked the same.  It was pretending to be a T1100.

This Ventus looks like a Ventus, but is missing a lot of the tech in the real Ventus.  Its pretending to be a Ventus.

I think for a lot of people, myself included, its the "Look-alike" examples that need to be corrected with the industry.  Give it its own name, or color, or something to show consumers it is not the same as the one you would get from the shaft manufacturer.  

I agree with you that the general golfing public will have no idea... and that is why a lot of people get upset.  They think they have something they don't.

I think they article that was posted here is fantastic:  https://mygolfspy.com/made-for-shafts-a-closer-look/

 

Yes there is the difference between what ping does and looks like but my point was that made for has existed without the knowledge of a large portion of the golfing public knowing it, including the more educated internet golfer.

fujikura has been a brand that has done made for without changing the color schemes like the Atmos line. 
 

Not sure I understand the bolder part since the made for comes from manufacturer just like the aftermarket one, just has different specs 

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Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

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Just now, RickyBobby_PR said:

It could be for most brands where they tell the shaft companies what they want and they design it off the shaft the brand wants to use. Hzrdus black but not as stout as a example, but from my understanding ping used the elements chrome and then design around that to get the tour shaft then send specs to ust

Yes there is the difference between what ping does and looks like but my point was that made for has existed without the knowledge of a large portion of the golfing public knowing it, including the more educated internet golfer.

fujikura has been a brand that has done made for without changing the color schemes like the Atmos line. 
 

Not sure I understand the bolder part since the made for comes from manufacturer just like the aftermarket one, just has different specs 

Atmos was made for. Atmos Tour Spec wasn't. 

 

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Yes there is the difference between what ping does and looks like but my point was that made for has existed without the knowledge of a large portion of the golfing public knowing it, including the more educated internet golfer.
fujikura has been a brand that has done made for without changing the color schemes like the Atmos line. 
 
Not sure I understand the bolder part since the made for comes from manufacturer just like the aftermarket one, just has different specs 


Good points. I’m ok with made-for but if you’re making a made for Ventus it shouldn’t be called Ventus Blue.. maybe have it be the Ventus Green or Gray, which would show buyers it’s in the “Ventus” family but it is not the $350 Ventus Blue you see on tour, but maybe has a similar profile with a friendlier flex for normal golfers.

And at least fujikura had previously used the “tour-spec” label to show the premium offerings and had all the versions of the atmos line on their website. You can still see different pages for Atmos and Atmos Tour Spec along with the different Curves. I’m not sure we are going to see These Venti on their site in their own category like that.






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#COBRACONNECT CHALLENGE 4 ALUMNUS

:callaway-small: Epic Max LS 10.5 - Ventus Blue 6x | :cobra-small: Speedzone 5-wood - Ventus Blue 8s | :titelist-small: TSi3 20* Hybrid - KBS Proto 85s

:cobra-small: KING Forged Tec 5-GW - Nippon Modus 120x | :cobra-small: KING MIM Black 52.12C, 56.10V, 60.04W - Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

:EVNROLL: ER2B | :titelist-small: Pro V1x | :918457628_PrecisionPro: NX9 Slope

 

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Gotcha @RickyBobby_PR. Thanks for the clarification. I’ve used Made for Titleist shafts in the past - before I truly knew what it meant - so I get what you’re saying. Knowing what I do now though, I’d be more okay with companies taking up this practice again rather than trying so hard disguise what they’re doing to better deceive consumers.

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Driver: Mizuno ST190 9.5* Aldila RIP Alpha 60 S
Fairway Wood: Mizuno ST190 15* Fujikura Atmos Blue 6S
Hyrbrid: Mizuno CLK 19* Fujikura Speeder EVO HB
Irons: Bridgestone J40 CB (4-PW) Dynamic Gold Tour Issue X100
Wedges: Bridgestone Tour B XW-1 50*, 54*, & 58* Nippon Modus 3 105
Putter: Cleveland Huntington Beach SOFT Premier 4 34"
Ball: Snell MTB-X
Bag: 2017 Titleist Players 5 Stand Bag

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37 minutes ago, jlukes said:

Atmos was made for. Atmos Tour Spec wasn't. 

 

 

27 minutes ago, B.Boston said:

 


Good points. I’m ok with made-for but if you’re making a made for Ventus it shouldn’t be called Ventus Blue.. maybe have it be the Ventus Green or Gray, which would show buyers it’s in the “Ventus” family but it is not the $350 Ventus Blue you see on tour, but maybe has a similar profile with a friendlier flex for normal golfers.

And at least fujikura had previously used the “tour-spec” label to show the premium offerings and had all the versions of the atmos line on their website. You can still see different pages for Atmos and Atmos Tour Spec along with the different Curves. I’m not sure we are going to see These Venti on their site in their own category like that.






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But does avg Joe consumer know that? They see atmos blue and see it on tv to them it’s the same

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Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

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But does avg Joe consumer know that? They see atmos blue and see it on tv to them it’s the same


At least one was white and one was black fir a while... but I see your point!

Anyway, I’m still excited to try the SIM out. Didn’t mean to go on a big tangent [emoji2957]


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#COBRACONNECT CHALLENGE 4 ALUMNUS

:callaway-small: Epic Max LS 10.5 - Ventus Blue 6x | :cobra-small: Speedzone 5-wood - Ventus Blue 8s | :titelist-small: TSi3 20* Hybrid - KBS Proto 85s

:cobra-small: KING Forged Tec 5-GW - Nippon Modus 120x | :cobra-small: KING MIM Black 52.12C, 56.10V, 60.04W - Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

:EVNROLL: ER2B | :titelist-small: Pro V1x | :918457628_PrecisionPro: NX9 Slope

 

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8 minutes ago, B.Boston said:

 


At least one was white and one was black fir a while... but I see your point!

Anyway, I’m still excited to try the SIM out. Didn’t mean to go on a big tangent emoji2957.png


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Correct. The Atmos that was made for Taylormade was black. Only came in Atmos Blue and Red. 

The actual Atmos Tour Spec was only available in white. 

For the Cobra F9 driver, Fujikura made the Tour Spec in black. That was an actual Tour Spec shaft, just custom pained for cobra. 

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:ping-small: G410 LST 14.5* Tour AD DI 7X
:titelist-small: 818 H2 20* Tour AD DI 85X
:mizuno-small: MP20 HMB 4 Tour AD 95X
:mizuno-small: JPX 919 Tour 5-PW Oban CT 115 X(-)
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Going through some of the YouTube videos on the SIM drivers and just got onto Rick Shiels video which he kicked off by saying Shape in Motion or Slightly Improved Marketing for what SIM stands for and this is just another thing that's really irked me about his channel in recent months, and really the last year on the whole.

I know others agree with him, but as someone with an engineering background and as someone who would LOVE to be designing golf clubs for a company like TaylorMade, I just find the whole "it's all marketing BS" stuff so insulting. I mean, obviously marketing is going to dress up stuff to make it more appealing to consumers, that's literally their job, but it doesn't make the engineering that goes into these clubs any less real and it's incredibly insulting to the very intelligent people who put in countless hours of work designing these clubs to label them in that way.

End rant.

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I'm 100% on board with the made for Ventus rant.  I've wanted to hit Ventus since it launched, then they released the Black and now I REALLY want to try it.  However I have 2 young kids and don't have the time or desire to go in and pay for a fitting just to test it out.  So I'll likely end up buying one when I find the right deal.  

However I also have a bunch of clubs laying around that I would be more than happy to trade in.  Couple that with 50% trade in bonus and if there was an OEM that released any driver with a real deal Ventus shaft this year and I would most likely buy it.  The fact that Taylormade put in a made for version and are trying to mask it as the real thing makes me not want to hit it.

I guess Cally is my last shot for this dream, but I don't have any high hopes there either.

As for the SIM if I ignore the issues with Ventus.  Love the color scheme and I think it looks better than their past few releases.  If it's truly lower spin with some gain in ball speed I'd put it on the short list of drivers to test this year.

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3w: :taylormade-small:'16 M2 hl w/ Diamana D+ 82

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1 hour ago, FrogginBullfish said:

Going through some of the YouTube videos on the SIM drivers and just got onto Rick Shiels video which he kicked off by saying Shape in Motion or Slightly Improved Marketing for what SIM stands for and this is just another thing that's really irked me about his channel in recent months, and really the last year on the whole.

I know others agree with him, but as someone with an engineering background and as someone who would LOVE to be designing golf clubs for a company like TaylorMade, I just find the whole "it's all marketing BS" stuff so insulting. I mean, obviously marketing is going to dress up stuff to make it more appealing to consumers, that's literally their job, but it doesn't make the engineering that goes into these clubs any less real and it's incredibly insulting to the very intelligent people who put in countless hours of work designing these clubs to label them in that way.

End rant.

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I don’t want to get too far off topic, but I have to agree about Shiels over the past year or so. Most of his stuff is clickbait anymore and not real testing. He did have some good constructive comments on the SIM drivers once he got them on the course and launch monitor though - I’ll at least give him that much.

 

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Driver: Mizuno ST190 9.5* Aldila RIP Alpha 60 S
Fairway Wood: Mizuno ST190 15* Fujikura Atmos Blue 6S
Hyrbrid: Mizuno CLK 19* Fujikura Speeder EVO HB
Irons: Bridgestone J40 CB (4-PW) Dynamic Gold Tour Issue X100
Wedges: Bridgestone Tour B XW-1 50*, 54*, & 58* Nippon Modus 3 105
Putter: Cleveland Huntington Beach SOFT Premier 4 34"
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Bag: 2017 Titleist Players 5 Stand Bag

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That is true, I hadn't finished the video when I posted that rant. He did say many nice things about the clubs but it felt more than a little unnecessary, in my opinion, to have that marketing dig in there.

Anyways, that kind of stuff just really grinds my gears.

I don’t want to get too far off topic, but I have to agree about Shiels over the past year or so. Most of his stuff is clickbait anymore and not real testing. He did have some good constructive comments on the SIM drivers once he got them on the course and launch monitor though - I’ll at least give him that much.
 


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Going through some of the YouTube videos on the SIM drivers and just got onto Rick Shiels video which he kicked off by saying Shape in Motion or Slightly Improved Marketing for what SIM stands for and this is just another thing that's really irked me about his channel in recent months, and really the last year on the whole.

I know others agree with him, but as someone with an engineering background and as someone who would LOVE to be designing golf clubs for a company like TaylorMade, I just find the whole "it's all marketing BS" stuff so insulting. I mean, obviously marketing is going to dress up stuff to make it more appealing to consumers, that's literally their job, but it doesn't make the engineering that goes into these clubs any less real and it's incredibly insulting to the very intelligent people who put in countless hours of work designing these clubs to label them in that way.

End rant.

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But, Shiels only picked up .4 mph versus TM's last driver right? At 113 mph that doesn't make a big difference in performance. For slower swingers there's even less upside.

For results-oriented, non-engineers SIM is marketing BS.

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That 0.4 mph could have been picked up for other reasons as well, but that doesn't make the engineering that went into the SIM designs any less real. Calling it marketing BS is incredibly disrespectful to everyone who worked on these clubs.

I also think "testing" for aerodynamics improvements in environments with negligible fluid flow is not an ideal way to test. At that point you're just testing how well the shape moves through stagnant air and given that companies have been using streamlined shapes in drivers for years, you're not going to see the largest difference possible in aerodynamic performance from club to club. You'd have to test them both on a windy day with the wind flowing directly towars the club face at address/impact to really begin to see the difference in performance between the two.

Aerodynamics, and fluid mechanics on the whole, is one of the most complex areas in all of applied physics.

But, Shiels only picked up .4 mph versus TM's last driver right? At 113 mph that doesn't make a big difference in performance. For slower swingers there's even less upside.

For results-oriented, non-engineers SIM is marketing BS.

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It’s 90+% marketing schtick, but most club manufacturers are guilty, not just TM. That said, club makers wouldn’t spend all the promo, ad and endorsement money if it didn’t work on a lot of players (who just like new and shiny to impress others or can’t believe their in Insteon swing is too blame). There are endless YT videos with launch monitor comparisons that clearly show there’s little difference from year to year, even brand to brand in many cases.
If you’re buying clubs you might as well get your favorite of the latest offerings on the market. But if you think your game will improve by upgrading every 1-2 years, odds are you’re kidding yourself. For at least 90% of us, our clubs are (way) better than we are...
The significant changes worthy of upgrading are few and far between - e.g hollow metal woods, oversized drivers, titanium/carbon fiber woods, modern golf balls, etc.
Though some players will insist their new clubs are better (none of us want to admit otherwise), I’ve yet to see anyone I play with improve their score just by getting new clubs. You?
CE78C689-9357-4327-A738-5C1A6D9FEBC6.thumb.jpeg.645ed50e94c095250f4e41d386705c6d.jpeg

Not gonna get in the classic yearly debate when new stuff comes out. Instead, I’m gonna ask you to go to Club Champion, or True Spec, or a fitter that has hundreds of shafts. Then, I’m gonna ask you to compare the new SIM drivers to what you currently play, or the M5/M6 after you’ve gotten your best head and shaft mix. Then, let us know if the marketing claims by TM about the SIM being more forgiving vs previous models, keeping spin off high face strikes, and overall ball speed improvements across the face as a whole appear in your fitting.
That will help this thread a ton!!! Let’s try to not bash and be negative. Let’s actually go try the clubs and see if what TM says makes these incrementally better actually shows-up for us.


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Hybrid: :callaway-small: X2 Hot Pro, 20*, Graphite Design Tour AD-DI 105X

Irons: :honma:TR20 Tour P 4-10, :Nippon: Modus 130 stiff, +1”

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The difference with PING on the tour shafts is that it has PING written all over it, not Elements Chrome.  It's close to the same, but looks different.  Its not pretending to be a Elements Chrome.
When Cally came out with that T800 shaft it looked exactly like the T1100, It was different, but looked the same.  It was pretending to be a T1100.
This Ventus looks like a Ventus, but is missing a lot of the tech in the real Ventus.  Its pretending to be a Ventus.
I think for a lot of people, myself included, its the "Look-alike" examples that need to be corrected with the industry.  Give it its own name, or color, or something to show consumers it is not the same as the one you would get from the shaft manufacturer.  
I agree with you that the general golfing public will have no idea... and that is why a lot of people get upset.  They think they have something they don't.
I think they article that was posted here is fantastic:  https://mygolfspy.com/made-for-shafts-a-closer-look/
 

It should have on the shaft:
Ventu.... Just Kidding! [emoji23]

THAT would be AWESOME!!


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Driver: :cobra-small: King F9 Speedback, Xphlexxx Busa 2 Liquid, XX stiff, 45”

Fwy:  :callaway-small: Super Hybrid 17*, Aldila RIP Alpha 105 S, tipped 1”

Hybrid: :callaway-small: X2 Hot Pro, 20*, Graphite Design Tour AD-DI 105X

Irons: :honma:TR20 Tour P 4-10, :Nippon: Modus 130 stiff, +1”

Wedges: Vega VW-06 50*/54*/58*, Dynamic Gold S400

Putter:  :edel-golf-1: EAS 1.0

All clubs have :Arccos:  In the Winn Dri-Tac 2.0 Oversize grips

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I like what TaylorMade is going for with the SIM line. The sole design could definitely use some smoothing out in my opinion.

I'm more curious why the SIM Max fairways and hybrid aren't getting an adjustable loft/lie sleeve. I don't get that one at all.

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They talk about it a bit in the TXG video. If I remember correctly, they put 80g of weight in the sole of the fairway so there’s weight behind the face where the ball makes contact, so removing the sleeve was necessary to get this additional weight down there. Optimizing ball speed off the face. Contact is made low on the face due to hitting off the deck. One has to have weight behind where contact is made to improve the ball numbers.


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Driver: :cobra-small: King F9 Speedback, Xphlexxx Busa 2 Liquid, XX stiff, 45”

Fwy:  :callaway-small: Super Hybrid 17*, Aldila RIP Alpha 105 S, tipped 1”

Hybrid: :callaway-small: X2 Hot Pro, 20*, Graphite Design Tour AD-DI 105X

Irons: :honma:TR20 Tour P 4-10, :Nippon: Modus 130 stiff, +1”

Wedges: Vega VW-06 50*/54*/58*, Dynamic Gold S400

Putter:  :edel-golf-1: EAS 1.0

All clubs have :Arccos:  In the Winn Dri-Tac 2.0 Oversize grips

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