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Taylormade SIM drivers - Thoughts?


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Going through some of the YouTube videos on the SIM drivers and just got onto Rick Shiels video which he kicked off by saying Shape in Motion or Slightly Improved Marketing for what SIM stands for and this is just another thing that's really irked me about his channel in recent months, and really the last year on the whole.

I know others agree with him, but as someone with an engineering background and as someone who would LOVE to be designing golf clubs for a company like TaylorMade, I just find the whole "it's all marketing BS" stuff so insulting. I mean, obviously marketing is going to dress up stuff to make it more appealing to consumers, that's literally their job, but it doesn't make the engineering that goes into these clubs any less real and it's incredibly insulting to the very intelligent people who put in countless hours of work designing these clubs to label them in that way.

End rant.

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He and Crossfield, generally, don’t even test what the differences are that are being claimed from one model to the next. “Straighter/more forgiving”. They NEVER go though and show the dispersion grid, or FIR on-course, never. “Improved spin numbers on high face hits”. They never try to show if this is true or not. “Better ball speeds across a larger portion of the face”. Again, never testing this.
All they do is hit balls, “Whats my ball speed and distance?” They do SUCH a disservice to the consumer by not testing the actual changes in the iterations.


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I wonder if people are underwhelmed when car companies release a car model every year. Or phone every year. Or anything every year.  This isn't about drastic improvements over the previous year.

I guess I'll just post my first impressions in this thread instead of making another thread with the same subject matter. My driver swing is still kinda in the dumps, but I will say that SIM Max

This thread in a nutshell  

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He and Crossfield, generally, don’t even test what the differences are that are being claimed from one model to the next. “Straighter/more forgiving”. They NEVER go though and show the dispersion grid, or FIR on-course, never. “Improved spin numbers on high face hits”. They never try to show if this is true or not. “Better ball speeds across a larger portion of the face”. Again, never testing this.
All they do is hit balls, “Whats my ball speed and distance?” They do SUCH a disservice to the consumer by not testing the actual changes in the iterations.


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Yeah, and I kind of get what crossfield means. I realize he’s a good golfer and most will perform the same for him on average over the course of the review. I like how he goes into sound and feel as those are big differentiators now, but it would be nice to test some of those other things too.

At least he does advocate for us to all get fit and doesn’t say they’re all the same.

Lately it’s been the TXG guys I’ve been learning more from, and Matt is pretty damn hard to relate to on swing speed [emoji23]


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8 hours ago, FrogginBullfish said:

Going through some of the YouTube videos on the SIM drivers and just got onto Rick Shiels video which he kicked off by saying Shape in Motion or Slightly Improved Marketing for what SIM stands for and this is just another thing that's really irked me about his channel in recent months, and really the last year on the whole.

I know others agree with him, but as someone with an engineering background and as someone who would LOVE to be designing golf clubs for a company like TaylorMade, I just find the whole "it's all marketing BS" stuff so insulting. I mean, obviously marketing is going to dress up stuff to make it more appealing to consumers, that's literally their job, but it doesn't make the engineering that goes into these clubs any less real and it's incredibly insulting to the very intelligent people who put in countless hours of work designing these clubs to label them in that way.

End rant.

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Im right with you @FrogginBullfish, I'm an engineer as well and would love to be working for TM or any other as well. BUT i'm kinda on the opposite spectrum of this. As an engineer an having an interest in all the tech that goes into clubs these days, I think they just slapped a bigger weight onto the back, accentuated the big bar on the bottom and then handed it over to the graphic department to paint it.

@FrogginBullfish @J.B. TexasEx I'm with ya on the Rick Shiels videos. I do watch them do get a little insight, opinion, and entertainment. I do think he was pretty honest on this video for a change though. He said it was good but dont necessarily upgrade. I'm sure that doesnt make TM feel good but its the truth for consumers. The 0.4mph is way to small of a difference. He only hits 10 drivers of each and he did hit the M5 AFTER hitting the SIM and SIM Max. 20 drives prolly doesnt wear him out but... 10 drives as your sample size isnt very sufficient.

I still think this SIM will be a GREAT driver (haven't hit it yet) BUT I would much much rather spend money on a M5/M6 (which I already own).

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23 minutes ago, B.Boston said:

 


Yeah, and I kind of get what crossfield means. I realize he’s a good golfer and most will perform the same for him on average over the course of the review. I like how he goes into sound and feel as those are big differentiators now, but it would be nice to test some of those other things too.

At least he does advocate for us to all get fit and doesn’t say they’re all the same.

Lately it’s been the TXG guys I’ve been learning more from, and Matt is pretty damn hard to relate to on swing speed emoji23.png


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Most people with consistent strike location don’t see anything significant from year to year...granted the meaning of significant will vary by individual. Those who are less consistent tend to see an improvement in dispersion and/or distance from new designs thanks to the tech and other changes.

Matt or other elite players are hard to relate to for many amatuers but the data can still be used to see how things change when a strike moves off center. Ball speed, launch, etc for those strike against normal strike to see the “loss” as well as comparing similar strikes to other heads. the results will vary from golfer to golfer but seeing how the tech affects that bad strike still can yield useful information 

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8 hours ago, J.B. TexasEx said:

But, Shiels only picked up .4 mph versus TM's last driver right? At 113 mph that doesn't make a big difference in performance. For slower swingers there's even less upside.

For results-oriented, non-engineers SIM is marketing BS.

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Matty from TXG picked up like 2MPH club speed and the guys had what I’d at least consider a reasonable explanation for it. You should look at their SIM vs M5 driver test. As with pretty much anything anywhere, results may vary.

On a separate note, I gotta give credit where credit is due. The more I read about and watch these videos on SIM, the more I’m thinking my original take was bass ackwards and I need to try this thing!

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For the doubters.

 

Note the standard deviation differences, note the consistency, and DEFINITELY note a 10 yard gain vs M5. If you believe Rick Shiels, and Crossfield who don’t go as in-depth, you need to start watching TXG reviews instead!

 

 

 

 

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But, Shiels only picked up .4 mph versus TM's last driver right? At 113 mph that doesn't make a big difference in performance. For slower swingers there's even less upside.

For results-oriented, non-engineers SIM is marketing BS.

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Shiels isn’t testing what TM claims are the improvements. See my post above... If Shiels is your one and only source, you’re doing a disservice.
How about you go test for yourself? We’d love to see how it does for each golfer! If you can go somewhere that has more than stock shafts, and can really dial it in, I’d love to hear what you find! It would be awesome!!!
Watch the TXG video. Very in-depth, the opposite of Shiels.


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More for the doubters who don’t want to watch the full TXG video. Pay attention to Standard Deviation, the small number below all of the averages. Much tighter for SIM. If you want just ball speed and distance? That’s there too...

Tighter numbers, better ball speeds, lower spin, and more distance. For Matt Blois, SIM is DEFINITELY better than M5!

FYI: same shafts, same club weighting as well!!!

IMG_1704.thumb.JPG.951aed2e618eff6999f4848db87d3cc4.JPG

 

 

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For the doubters.
 
Note the standard deviation differences, note the consistency, and DEFINITELY note a 10 yard gain vs M5. If you believe Rick Shiels, and Crossfield who don’t go as in-depth, you need to start watching TXG reviews instead!
 
 

 
 
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Even in their quick preview video they kept mentioning how stable it was compared to M5. Really interested in the driver CG report for this year! I expect they will move a lot from M5 to SIM


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The 80g steel weight is in the standard SIM which comes with the adjustable loft sleeve.

The V steel sole on the Max versions is still quite heavy for the reasons you mention that were talked about in the TXG video with Tomo, though I haven't seen any mention of actual mass specs for this version.

They wanted improved performance on low strikes and removing the loft sleeve also allowed them to have the Thru-Slot Speed Pocket cover the entirety of the club face.

I asked Tony about it on Twitter as well. He also cited optimizing weight placement. My curiosity about its removal came more at the expense of fitting ability though which I mentioned to Tony, to which he replied, "argument is that with 3 models and a variety of loft options, there’s enough on the table to leverage the performance benefits without limiting your ability to fit golfers."

I'm not sure I agree with the argument that there's enough on the table as custom fitting is about more than just loft. Those sleeves gave lie adjustments too and that's the biggest loss, in my opinion, for players who'd fit into the SIM Max fairways and rescues. Might not matter to some players I guess but it might be enough to take the SIM fairways or rescues out of the fitting equation for some players.

All that being said though, the performance of the SIM metalwoods is looking very strong and I must admit the driver sole design is growing on me. I'm looking forward to giving them a test at some point this year.


They talk about it a bit in the TXG video. If I remember correctly, they put 80g of weight in the sole of the fairway so there’s weight behind the face where the ball makes contact, so removing the sleeve was necessary to get this additional weight down there. Optimizing ball speed off the face. Contact is made low on the face due to hitting off the deck. One has to have weight behind where contact is made to improve the ball numbers.


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7 minutes ago, PMookie said:

Pay attention to Standard Deviation, the small number below all of the averages.

Standard deviation for ball speed really stuck out to me when I watched the video. Yes, the sample size is small, but Matty is a pretty good swinger of the golf club and saw a 1.3 MPH improvement in deviation! That's impressive!!! That should tell you that the club is either A - hotter on mishits, or B - more stable through impact leading to more consistent strike. You could argue that he hit M5 first and wasn't warmed up, but they went back to M5 at the end to validate what they were seeing. 

Are the improvements earth-shattering? No. Can they help you? Yes, especially coming from much older equipment. Obviously, it should be noted that a guy like Matty is going to see more benefit from the changes than a lot of golfers, but it doesn't mean the engineering doesn't work. Marketing over-hyped? Probably, nearly every OEM does it - even Titleist hopped on the boat with the release of TS and T-Series.

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11 minutes ago, FrogginBullfish said:

The 80g steel weight is in the standard SIM which comes with the adjustable loft sleeve.

The V steel sole on the Max versions is still quite heavy for the reasons you mention that were talked about in the TXG video with Tomo, though I haven't seen any mention of actual mass specs for this version.

They wanted improved performance on low strikes and removing the loft sleeve also allowed them to have the Thru-Slot Speed Pocket cover the entirety of the club face.

I asked Tony about it on Twitter as well. He also cited optimizing weight placement. My curiosity about its removal came more at the expense of fitting ability though which I mentioned to Tony, to which he replied, "argument is that with 3 models and a variety of loft options, there’s enough on the table to leverage the performance benefits without limiting your ability to fit golfers."

I'm not sure I agree with the argument that there's enough on the table as custom fitting is about more than just loft. Those sleeves gave lie adjustments too and that's the biggest loss, in my opinion, for players who'd fit into the SIM Max fairways and rescues. Might not matter to some players I guess but it might be enough to take the SIM fairways or rescues out of the fitting equation for some players.

All that being said though, the performance of the SIM metalwoods is looking very strong and I must admit the driver sole design is growing on me. I'm looking forward to giving them a test at some point this year.

 


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I think the number of golfers who would need that type of lie adjustment on a fairway are pretty small. Tony's assessment seems pretty fair in IMO. Enough options there to fit all, but a very select few.

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It's a fair assessment.

 

I just feel like it's better to have it and not need it than not to have it and wind up needing it.

I think the number of golfers who would need that type of lie adjustment on a fairway are pretty small. Tony's assessment seems pretty fair in IMO. Enough options there to fit all, but a very select few.

 

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Great article on the woods and hybrid. The ZATECH titanium is interesting 
 

https://mygolfspy.com/taylormade-sim-fairway-wood-hybrid-review/

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7 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Great article on the woods and hybrid. The ZATECH titanium is interesting 
 

https://mygolfspy.com/taylormade-sim-fairway-wood-hybrid-review/

I started to post about the ZATECH as well. I’m very curious about it. Google ZATECH titanium and the top result is Zatech Co. an oil and gas engineering and supply company.

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48 minutes ago, PMookie said:

More for the doubters who don’t want to watch the full TXG video. Pay attention to Standard Deviation, the small number below all of the averages. Much tighter for SIM. If you want just ball speed and distance? That’s there too...

Tighter numbers, better ball speeds, lower spin, and more distance. For Matt Blois, SIM is DEFINITELY better than M5!

FYI: same shafts, same club weighting as well!!!

IMG_1704.thumb.JPG.951aed2e618eff6999f4848db87d3cc4.JPG

 

 

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The guy in the TXG video has a 117mph swing speed!!!! He's faster than most tour pro's! Essentially hes in the top 0.05% of golfers haha.  (my guess on %)

Doing a QUICK Google search:

The average male amateur's swing speed is 93.4 miles per hour, according to research by TrackMan, for an average distance of 214 yards. Using TrackMan's "optimal" distance, the average golfer's potential is 255 yards at that same swing speed

I wanna see the average 90-95mph swing player with like a 10 hdcp (bad eough that there are mishits, good enough that they have the ability to make good contact).

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Just now, JonMUSC08 said:

The guy in the TXG video has a 117mph swing speed!!!! He's faster than most tour pro's! Essentially hes in the top 0.05% of golfers haha.  (my guess on %)

Doing a QUICK Google search:

The average male amateur's swing speed is 93.4 miles per hour, according to research by TrackMan, for an average distance of 214 yards. Using TrackMan's "optimal" distance, the average golfer's potential is 255 yards at that same swing speed

I wanna see the average 90-95mph swing player with like a 10 hdcp (bad eough that there are mishits, good enough that they have the ability to make good contact).

What the hell does swing speed have to do with standard deviation on a direct head to head comparison?

 

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Clearly we have a hard time understanding how engineering for aerodynamics works and posts like this don’t help...

62FA2199-4043-47D1-859A-9AB673A8C4C8.thumb.png.b929ea734fc4ebe0d82cbbd74c15de10.png

I gave the SIM a hard time about being a copy of the F9 before being corrected about the M6. Shiels’ comparison isn’t even close! 

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13 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

 

But does avg Joe consumer know that? They see atmos blue and see it on tv to them it’s the same

This is my take from the whole thread.  I've said it before either in this thread or one of the blog comments.   This forum and others are the 1% of golfers who get into this type stuff and get worked up about i....some do I don't.  

I can tell you with 100% certainty that the average guy watching the PGA Tour on TV has no idea what shaft is in DJ"s Rory's or Tigers driver...they couldn't pick it out of a lineup of baseball bats. I say this as I speak to many of them when they come through our shop or come into my office to ask about a club.  Shaft type questions rarely ever comes up other than the flex. 

  The OEM's sell to these viewers much more than they do the Forum members.  I've spoken to marketing and R&D people at several of the major OEM's and they LOVE us us---the 1%---and love our passion for the game and equipment, but production and marketing decisions are not targeted to us.   They just aren't! 

3 hours ago, PMookie said:


They talk about it a bit in the TXG video. If I remember correctly, they put 80g of weight in the sole of the fairway so there’s weight behind the face where the ball makes contact, so removing the sleeve was necessary to get this additional weight down there. Optimizing ball speed off the face. Contact is made low on the face due to hitting off the deck. One has to have weight behind where contact is made to improve the ball numbers.


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It was also mentioned in Tony's piece on the FW/Hybrids.   Which he commented on Twitter that nobody wants to read about FW/hybrids but he still has to write about them. 😎  I am a bit different in this aspect as the FW' and hybrids are the most important part of my bag, as I generally carry 5 to 6 of them combined.  

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So not to get lost in my post above.  I'm very interested in the driver and high-lofted FW most likely either SIM Max or SIM TI in 18 degrees.  I'll have a chance to be fit for them in April.  Looking forward to it...if I can wait that long..ha

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:titelist-small: TSi2 Kuro Kage 50g R Flex

:titelist-small: TSi2 16.5 FW with GD AD IZ 6 Shaft

:ping-small:  G410 FW 7 Alta CB R flex 

:ping-small: G410 Hybrid 26 degree Alta CB R Flex

:titelist-small: T100S/T200 Combo 5-7 T100S 8-P T200 TT Black Oynx R Flex

:titelist-small: SM7 54.08 F 58.12 K 

:ping-small: Heppler Tomcast 

:titelist-small: ProV1X Play number 12

 

 

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