New Handicap System - Playing Conditions Calculation

[AlanMP 14]

This is my first posted score that involves the new playing conditions calculation. I guess this means the nine holes were playing a half stroke harder due to the weather conditions? I played in the morning. Conditions were soft cause it had poured the night before so I guess maybe I wasn't getting the normal roll out on the fairways. The weather was much worse in the afternoon that day so maybe that weather is being taken into account? Either way, the new handicap system is interesting. Anyone else had their scores adjusted due to weather? 

[DaveP043 4,952]

On 1/14/2020 at 9:40 AM, AlanMP said:

This is my first posted score that involves the new playing conditions calculation. I guess this means the nine holes were playing a half stroke harder due to the weather conditions? I played in the morning. Conditions were soft cause it had poured the night before so I guess maybe I wasn't getting the normal roll out on the fairways. The weather was much worse in the afternoon that day so maybe that weather is being taken into account? Either way, the new handicap system is interesting. Anyone else had their scores adjusted due to weather? 

The PCC is based only on the scores posted that day, it's not really based on someone's assessment of the weather.  I'm your case, the PM rains may have raised the scoring enough to trigger the adjustment.

Edit.  I'll leave my initial (kinda dumb) response in place, but clarify this based on @THEZIPR23 pointing m to what is actually there.  A negative PCC, like the -0.5 shown in the OP, means that scoring was lower than expected, so conditions were apparently easier than normal.

Edited March 5, 2020 by DaveP043

[pulledabill 2,607]

I went to a seminar tonight at my club. I hadnt heard of the score adhustment until tonight. I guess weather. pin placement, maybe even too many beverages on the back can affect the score. Thats why its important to post before midnight on the day of your round. If you post after, you wont get the adjustment if one is made. Its only based on posted scores, not that it rained and there was no roll. 

[DaveP043 4,952]

7 hours ago, pulledabill said:

I went to a seminar tonight at my club. I hadnt heard of the score adhustment until tonight. I guess weather. pin placement, maybe even too many beverages on the back can affect the score. Thats why its important to post before midnight on the day of your round. If you post after, you wont get the adjustment if one is made. Its only based on posted scores, not that it rained and there was no roll. 

The bold bit isn't exactly correct.  The calculation will be made based only on scores that are posted on the day of play.  However, the PCC will be applied to every score posted for play on that day, no matter when the score is actually posted.

[Mr. 82 3,870]

I've posted well over 20 scores this year from my home club for this year, with the new handicap system, and I have yet to see any adjustment for PCC.  What I am about to say is not scientific, or based on anything more then random observation and conversations with other members at my club, but I get the impression that a lot of guys at my club either don't post scores the same day, or not at all.  As an example, after our dogfight on Saturday, the pro asks and collects everyone's scorecards, and I think he is posting these into the system, but I have no way of really knowing if this is happening.  In my case, because I maintain my handicap with the FSGA, and not through my home club, I always post my scores the day of on the GHIN website when I get home, and I always included the advanced stats in my round, as I am just a numbers geek.

Last Saturday was an interesting conversation I overheard, as we had a one day member guest, and one of the guys in my group that I play with all the time was approached by the head pro and was gently encouraged to take a closer look at his current handicap as he hadn't posted any scores this year at all, and I know for a fact that I have played at least a handful of rounds with him.  He's an older guy who could care less about computers, or the internet or anything.  His problem wasn't sandbagging actually, but the fact that he had back issues, and his game has gone to hell since 2 years ago when it happened, and now he's scoring in the low 80's, but none of those scores are posted to his GHIN.  So the pro had him down as scratch for the member guest, and while I don't think he was even complaining, he just sort of mentioned that his handicap really wasn't reflective of his current game, to which his playing partner said to him bluntly, "well, that's your own damn fault then." meaning that he doesn't post scores, so that's on him for not doing so.

I guess I see that in a few scratch golfers at my club, where they don't seem to post the higher scores that might actually raise their handicap a bit.  I honestly don't think it's a glory handicap thing, but more of laziness or just don't care if they post scores or not.  Either way, I guess they can't complain when they enter a tournament and handicap is used and they ended up in last place in their flight.

I say all of this to explain why I don't believe any round at my club will ever come with a PCC adjustment.  Not much I can do about a group of guys who either don't post all their scores, or wait a day, week or whatever to post scores.  I guess I am just wierd in that I like to post my scores as soon as I can after the round is over.  The daily handicap adjustment is kinda fun to me.   

[DaveP043 4,952]

36 minutes ago, Mr. 82 said:

I've posted well over 20 scores this year from my home club for this year, with the new handicap system, and I have yet to see any adjustment for PCC.  What I am about to say is not scientific, or based on anything more then random observation and conversations with other members at my club, but I get the impression that a lot of guys at my club either don't post scores the same day, or not at all.  As an example, after our dogfight on Saturday, the pro asks and collects everyone's scorecards, and I think he is posting these into the system, but I have no way of really knowing if this is happening.  In my case, because I maintain my handicap with the FSGA, and not through my home club, I always post my scores the day of on the GHIN website when I get home, and I always included the advanced stats in my round, as I am just a numbers geek.

Last Saturday was an interesting conversation I overheard, as we had a one day member guest, and one of the guys in my group that I play with all the time was approached by the head pro and was gently encouraged to take a closer look at his current handicap as he hadn't posted any scores this year at all, and I know for a fact that I have played at least a handful of rounds with him.  He's an older guy who could care less about computers, or the internet or anything.  His problem wasn't sandbagging actually, but the fact that he had back issues, and his game has gone to hell since 2 years ago when it happened, and now he's scoring in the low 80's, but none of those scores are posted to his GHIN.  So the pro had him down as scratch for the member guest, and while I don't think he was even complaining, he just sort of mentioned that his handicap really wasn't reflective of his current game, to which his playing partner said to him bluntly, "well, that's your own damn fault then." meaning that he doesn't post scores, so that's on him for not doing so.

I guess I see that in a few scratch golfers at my club, where they don't seem to post the higher scores that might actually raise their handicap a bit.  I honestly don't think it's a glory handicap thing, but more of laziness or just don't care if they post scores or not.  Either way, I guess they can't complain when they enter a tournament and handicap is used and they ended up in last place in their flight.

I say all of this to explain why I don't believe any round at my club will ever come with a PCC adjustment.  Not much I can do about a group of guys who either don't post all their scores, or wait a day, week or whatever to post scores.  I guess I am just wierd in that I like to post my scores as soon as I can after the round is over.  The daily handicap adjustment is kinda fun to me.   

For the first bold bit, you certainly CAN look up Handicap Scores through GHIN, as long as you know first and last names.  Check a couple of players on the day following play, you'll find out whose scores have been posted.  Or you can simply ask the pro, instead of assuming.

If you're happy with a system that doesn't work as it should, fine.  If you'd like to see it run properly, you CAN do something about it.  Get involved.  Volunteer for the Handicap Committee.  This whole system simply cannot function properly without a little bit of effort by the people who use it.  No effort means a broken system.  This is pretty close to the old saying, "You get what you pay for".  

[Mr. 82 3,870]

11 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

For the first bold bit, you certainly CAN look up Handicap Scores through GHIN, as long as you know first and last names.  Check a couple of players on the day following play, you'll find out whose scores have been posted.  Or you can simply ask the pro, instead of assuming.

If you're happy with a system that doesn't work as it should, fine.  If you'd like to see it run properly, you CAN do something about it.  Get involved.  Volunteer for the Handicap Committee.  This whole system simply cannot function properly without a little bit of effort by the people who use it.  No effort means a broken system.  This is pretty close to the old saying, "You get what you pay for".  

Well, in response to your first part, I have looked up guys in the handicap system, and that's why I know they aren't posting.

As to your second part, I'll simply use the same answer I use with regards to sandbagging at my club, or anywhere else, "I'd rather have 12 friends than $100."  Whether or not people post scores to their handicap is not important enough for me to even bother saying anything to anyone about.  And it's certainly not important enough to piss someone off about.  I mean, even hypothetically running this conversation in my head leaves me with a result that everytime I play it out is nothing but a negative for me as a response.

"Hey Robert, how come you didn't post your dogfight scores in GHIN from last Saturday?"

"Hey Phillip, what are you doing now, stalking me?  Why don't you go FLOCK yourself."

Yeah, that's pretty much how that conversation goes in every conceivable scenario I can think of.  It's like trying to tell someone they shouldn't smoke, or shouldn't drink, or shouldn't do drugs, or shouldn't _________________________.  And I sure as heck don't want to be THAT GUY at the club that becomes known as the "handicap enforcer."  I'm 5'9" and 145 lbs.  I'm the last guy who would even consider even entertaining handicap anything at my club.

My GHIN is 100% dead on accurate and up to date.  That's my responsibility and it's good.  What someone else does with their GHIN is not up to me, and since we play in a points game that is used 99% of the time that is also 100% accurate and up to date (it's posted immediately after every round, and everyone's points are automatically adjusted online) I'm not worried one bit about someone's GHIN index.

One final thought on this matter.  Most rounds we play as a group there are side bets going on, and team bets, etc.  Generally speaking we try and pair guys up where we don't do strokes, and play straight up.  We'll pair a scratch golfer with an 8 handicap, and the other team will have a 2 handicap and a 4 handicap and both teams will play best ball and 9 times out of 10 the results play themselves out to where the guy making birdies wins the bet.  In these types of bets, par is meaningless because typically one guy in either team will par the hole to halve it.  Out of 18 holes you might win 1 hole with a par, but generally, you need a birdie and sometimes an eagle to win a hole.  So amongst the members in our club, handicaps just aren't used on these types of bets.  You bring your A game, or you lose $12 - $20.  It's really that simple.

Edited March 5, 2020 by Mr. 82

[pulledabill 2,607]

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

The bold bit isn't exactly correct.  The calculation will be made based only on scores that are posted on the day of play.  However, the PCC will be applied to every score posted for play on that day, no matter when the score is actually posted.

Correct...thank you

[pulledabill 2,607]

26 minutes ago, Mr. 82 said:

Well, in response to your first part, I have looked up guys in the handicap system, and that's why I know they aren't posting.

As to your second part, I'll simply use the same answer I use with regards to sandbagging at my club, or anywhere else, "I'd rather have 12 friends than $100."  Whether or not people post scores to their handicap is not important enough for me to even bother saying anything to anyone about.  And it's certainly not important enough to piss someone off about.  I mean, even hypothetically running this conversation in my head leaves me with a result that everytime I play it out is nothing but a negative for me as a response.

"Hey Robert, how come you didn't post your dogfight scores in GHIN from last Saturday?"

"Hey Phillip, what are you doing now, stalking me?  Why don't you go FLOCK yourself."

Yeah, that's pretty much how that conversation goes in every conceivable scenario I can think of.  It's like trying to tell someone they shouldn't smoke, or shouldn't drink, or shouldn't do drugs, or shouldn't _________________________.  And I sure as heck don't want to be THAT GUY at the club that becomes known as the "handicap enforcer."  I'm 5'9" and 145 lbs.  I'm the last guy who would even consider even entertaining handicap anything at my club.

My GHIN is 100% dead on accurate and up to date.  That's my responsibility and it's good.  What someone else does with their GHIN is not up to me, and since we play in a points game that is used 99% of the time that is also 100% accurate and up to date (it's posted immediately after every round, and everyone's points are automatically adjusted online) I'm not worried one bit about someone's GHIN index.

One final thought on this matter.  Most rounds we play as a group there are side bets going on, and team bets, etc.  Generally speaking we try and pair guys up where we don't do strokes, and play straight up.  We'll pair a scratch golfer with an 8 handicap, and the other team will have a 2 handicap and a 4 handicap and both teams will play best ball and 9 times out of 10 the results play themselves out to where the guy making birdies wins the bet.  In these types of bets, par is meaningless because typically one guy in either team will par the hole to halve it.  Out of 18 holes you might win 1 hole with a par, but generally, you need a birdie and sometimes an eagle to win a hole.  So amongst the members in our club, handicaps just aren't used on these types of bets.  You bring your A game, or you lose $12 - $20.  It's really that simple.

Interesting take.  Last night at my club's little class on this system, they were looking to add a few more people to what I believe they called some sort of handicap watch dog group.  They had an official name, but what it was is blanking on me.  They would basically audit club members amount of postings in comparison to the amount of tee times at the club.  So if they noticed "Joe" was only posting 1 round a week, but they noticed on the tee sheet that "Joe" was playing 6 days a week, they would ask "Joe" why he is only posting but once a week.  I don't believe anybody's hand went up when they looked to add a couple more members to the group.  Not a job  I would want. One scenario was that "Joe" would be on the deck having a drink with the guys celebrating his 74, when his normal score is well above that.  The watch dog group never sees that scored posted so they question him about why he didn't post it. 

Our course did go through a recent slope/rating update and some of the members weren't happy about the hole handicapping.  The gal driving this bus was really wanting people to post scores hole by hole so they hole handicapping might get updated via scores by holes. 

[DaveP043 4,952]

 

1 hour ago, Mr. 82 said:

As to your second part, I'll simply use the same answer I use with regards to sandbagging at my club, or anywhere else, "I'd rather have 12 friends than $100."  Whether or not people post scores to their handicap is not important enough for me to even bother saying anything to anyone about.  And it's certainly not important enough to piss someone off about.  I mean, even hypothetically running this conversation in my head leaves me with a result that everytime I play it out is nothing but a negative for me as a response.

"Hey Robert, how come you didn't post your dogfight scores in GHIN from last Saturday?"

"Hey Phillip, what are you doing now, stalking me?  Why don't you go FLOCK yourself."

Yeah, that's pretty much how that conversation goes in every conceivable scenario I can think of.  It's like trying to tell someone they shouldn't smoke, or shouldn't drink, or shouldn't do drugs, or shouldn't _________________________.  And I sure as heck don't want to be THAT GUY at the club that becomes known as the "handicap enforcer."  I'm 5'9" and 145 lbs.  I'm the last guy who would even consider even entertaining handicap anything at my club.

That "watch dog group" that @pulledabill mentions would properly be termed the Handicap Committee.  Its interesting, I started my role as "that guy", the Handicap Committee chair about 5 years ago.  Before then, we really didn't have a committee, even though its required by the rules.  I definitely got some push-back from a few players, but a whole lot more people thanked me for making the effort.  Its definitely a PITA, but prize money (shop credit) for the tournament season could get into the hundreds of dollars.  Most people see the value into making things as fair as the system can allow.  

We've never had to discipline anyone, but I've sent a fair number of emails telling players that we've noticed they're not posting scores when they should, and asking them to do better in the future.  As I said, I got some push-back, mostly from near-scratch guys who didn't like following any handicapping rules, but they came around.  Those initial emails have almost always been enough.  We've never had a conversation in public about this, we have no interest in embarrassing anyone in front of friends, although if its someone I know well I might have a little private chat.  We've also found that many many people don't understand what they're supposed to do, so part of the task is education.

Like I said, the handicap system depends on the "community" to make it work right.  If nobody cares enough to make the effort, you get what you've earned.

58 minutes ago, pulledabill said:

Our course did go through a recent slope/rating update and some of the members weren't happy about the hole handicapping.  The gal driving this bus was really wanting people to post scores hole by hole so they hole handicapping might get updated via scores by holes. 

The new Handicap Rules suggest that Hole Stoke Indexes be ordered differently than they have in the past.  Previously, the suggestion was to look for the holes where the difference between higher-handicappers and lower-handicappers was the greatest.  That was intended to be done by comparing hole-by-hole scores posted by two groups of golfers, high and low.  The new recommendations is based largely on the "difficulty" as measured by the Course Rating numbers, with adjustments made to distribute  stroke holes kind of evenly throughout the round.  We just redid ours a few years ago, so I don't see making changes right away, but the next time we do it we'll probably follow the recommendations.

 

[dhartmann34 1,788]

This system seems kind of broken because not all handicap systems are linked up. So if only one person is using your handicapping system at that course for the day.....but 50 others post with another system, the person using a different system with no one else posting, may not get a benefit, or possibly a non benefit, that the handicapping system with 50 golfers posting will get.

That's not right.... especially if they are all official handicap indexes.

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[DaveP043 4,952]

24 minutes ago, dhartmann34 said:

This system seems kind of broken because not all handicap systems are linked up. So if only one person is using your handicapping system at that course for the day.....but 50 others post with another system, the person using a different system with no one else posting, may not get a benefit, or possibly a non benefit, that the handicapping system with 50 golfers posting will get.

That's not right.... especially if they are all official handicap indexes.
 

Which systems are you talking about?  USGA approved handicaps all go into a common database.  This is almost certainly the reason that the Grint will now be issuing and using GHIN account numbers.  

[dhartmann34 1,788]

Which systems are you talking about?  USGA approved handicaps all go into a common database.  This is almost certainly the reason that the Grint will now be issuing and using GHIN account numbers.  

Well some of the ones folks use by me are CDGA, US Handicap, MyScorecard.


So since all of these are USGA approved, they'll aggregate all the scores of one course for all the handicap systems?

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[DaveP043 4,952]

31 minutes ago, dhartmann34 said:

Well some of the ones folks use by me are CDGA, US Handicap, MyScorecard.

So since all of these are USGA approved, they'll aggregate all the scores of one course for all the handicap systems?

That would be something to ask each of the various handicap services.  I would specifically ask whichever one you use how they will handle the PCC calculations.  Supposedly, we'll eventually have a world-wide database that all scores are stored in.  If I play in Argentina, and post my score promptly to my USGA handicap through my Virginia club, my score should be one of those evaluated in determining the PCC for that course in Argentina on that day.  I don't understand the methods of communicating scores to the appropriate calculational service, but I'm certain the mechanics have been thought through.

FYI, I just checked MyScorecard, and their webpage does not appear to have been revised to reflect the new handicap system.  USHandicap does appear to reflect the new system.  The CDGA is your USGA-allied local area association, so scores you post should all be available to the central database.  For players in your regions, entering scores into the CDGA is just like me entering scores into GHIN.   Its important to remember that the USGA doesn't require all of its allied associations to use GHIN, so the CDGA can be perfectly compliant and still operate its own "system."  

Edited March 5, 2020 by DaveP043

[dhartmann34 1,788]

That would be something to ask each of the various handicap services.  I would specifically ask whichever one you use how they will handle the PCC calculations.  Supposedly, we'll eventually have a world-wide database that all scores are stored in.  If I play in Argentina, and post my score promptly to my USGA handicap through my Virginia club, my score should be one of those evaluated in determining the PCC for that course in Argentina on that day.  I don't understand the methods of communicating scores to the appropriate calculational service, but I'm certain the mechanics have been thought through.
FYI, I just checked MyScorecard, and their webpage does not appear to have been revised to reflect the new handicap system.  USHandicap does appear to reflect the new system.  The CDGA is your USGA-allied local area association, so scores you post should all be available to the central database.  For players in your regions, entering scores into the CDGA is just like me entering scores into GHIN.   Its important to remember that the USGA doesn't require all of its allied associations to use GHIN, so the CDGA can be perfectly compliant and still operate its own "system."  

Here's what the CDGA says about the PCC...



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[THEZIPR23 5,943]

On 1/14/2020 at 6:40 AM, AlanMP said:

This is my first posted score that involves the new playing conditions calculation. I guess this means the nine holes were playing a half stroke harder due to the weather conditions? I played in the morning. Conditions were soft cause it had poured the night before so I guess maybe I wasn't getting the normal roll out on the fairways. The weather was much worse in the afternoon that day so maybe that weather is being taken into account? Either way, the new handicap system is interesting. Anyone else had their scores adjusted due to weather? 

I am assuming the -0.5 is the adjustment? I have had one score adjusted by PCC and it shows +1 (18 holes). So my question is, was the course playing easier and the adjustment is down or is it just visually presented differently?

[DaveP043 4,952]

25 minutes ago, dhartmann34 said:

Here's what the CDGA says about the PCC...

Makes perfect sense, that's directly from this document from the USGA:

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/Handicap/world-handicap-system/WHS Change Summaries.pdf

For anyone interested, the document is a pretty complete list of 13 of the major changes, an explanation of the "old" rule, and the reason the change to the new rule was made.

18 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

I am assuming the -0.5 is the adjustment? I have had one score adjusted by PCC and it shows +1 (18 holes). So my question is, was the course playing easier and the adjustment is down or is it just visually presented differently?

Yeah, for a 9-hole score they use half of the -1 PCC adjustment.  The PCC will range from -1 (for easy days) to +3 (for high-score days).  The formula is:

Differential = (113/Slope Rating) x (Adjusted Score - Course Rating - PCC). 

So a positive PCC decreases the differential.

 

[THEZIPR23 5,943]

2 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Makes perfect sense, that's directly from this document from the USGA:

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/Handicap/world-handicap-system/WHS Change Summaries.pdf

For anyone interested, the document is a pretty complete list of 13 of the major changes, an explanation of the "old" rule, and the reason the change to the new rule was made.

Yeah, for a 9-hole score they use half of the -1 PCC adjustment.  The PCC will range from -1 (for easy days) to +3 (for high-score days).  The formula is:

Differential = (113/Slope Rating) x (Adjusted Score - Course Rating - PCC). 

So a positive PCC decreases the differential.

 

Ok that is what my understanding was. The OP sounded like it was an increase due to the weather when actuality it was a decrease in difficulty based on scores that day. 

[DaveP043 4,952]

1 minute ago, THEZIPR23 said:

Ok that is what my understanding was. The OP sounded like it was an increase due to the weather when actuality it was a decrease in difficulty based on scores that day. 

I'm laughing at myself, I didn't even notice the actual PCC was negative, I just assumed he was right when he talked about increased difficulty.  A negative PCC indicates that scoring was lower than normally expected, easier conditions.

[AlanMP 14]

I had no idea, my first thought was that the negative meant is was playing harder. Good to know that I was wrong. Now it makes sense and answers my original question.