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Off the Tee or 100 Yards In....


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More Important to Lowering Your Score--Off the Tee or 100 Yards In  

36 members have voted

  1. 1. What part of the average golfers game is the best opportunity to save strokes, getting off the tee safely-avoiding penalty strokes or having a good wedge game 100 yards in--but not counting putting, just your wedge play.

    • Off the Tee No Penalties
      16
    • 100 Yards In No chunks, skulls etc.
      20


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A discussion in another thread, brought this topic up. 

Where do you think is the best opportunity for a golfer to save strokes, off the tee or 100 yards in with the short game.   

I think it's going to vary depending on the golfer, if you can not get off the tee in play to save your life----and I've been there in the pas..fortunately no more--you are going to be shooting for double bogey or worst just about every time.    But if you can't hit a green and have bad wedge play, you are potentially throwing away easy strokes around the green.

So let's hear what everyone thinks.  Answer the poll above so we can see what the general thought is. 

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At this point for me it's 100 yards in.  I am in play off the tee just about every time, all be it not very far.  I do miss a lot of greens, so i've got a wedge in my hand on just about every hole.  so the opportunity to improve my proximity to the hole is definitely what is going to take me from my current 15.3 to my goal of 12 this year. 

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It was always drive for show and putt for dough...this stat is making me believe otherwise for the longer and better players.

I’ll still say for the average golfer, a solid short game is the advantage.

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I'm in the minority so far.  Solid play off the tee, including both reasonable distance AND elimination of penalties, is critical to good scores.  I've modified this from the actual poll, avoiding penalties is easy, but many of us would need to sacrifice significant distance to do it.  No part of the game is unimportant, but the ability to drive it in play is one of the more important facets.

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38 minutes ago, bens197 said:

It was always drive for show and putt for dough...this stat is making me believe otherwise for the longer and better players.

I’ll still say for the average golfer, a solid short game is the advantage.

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Exactly - and what holds at the top levels is true all the way through - I'm not good at importing outside stats (age and the fact that my technological helper is busy planning her wedding).  This same graph could be put up for handicap categories - pro - plus - 0-5 - 5-10 - 11-15 - 16- 20, 20 and above - the biggest gap will be either in average driving distance or strokes gained driving.  Avoiding penalties and maximizing distance are the key to shooting the lowest score possible.

But the question is which may be the best way for the average golf to save strokes.  That changes things because it is not easy to add distance or accuracy off the tee.  Doing that requires working out, taking lessons and practicing all of which require time and money something that many of us don't have or don't prioritize enough to do.  Working on the game from inside 100 may be done for the cost of one short game lesson and as little as two half hour practice sessions (for free around a practice green) per week.  That's doable for most people during lunch or on the way home from or to work.

 

I get why many would say inside 100.  Still, I think that very few will take advantage of the opportunity.  Even if they are willing to spend the time they are highly unlikely to take a short game lesson or two - after all - we're guys - we don't like to ask for or receive help. 🙂  For that reason I voted for off the tee with no penalties - all the data suggests its the correct answer - but again we're guys - we aren't about to let the facts stand in the way of what we do. 🙂 

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I play as a single at public courses a lot.... that being said I'm paired with golfers of all sorts of abilities and it's a great insight into a number of things.

* long is good if you can hit it again
I see folks swing harder than they should with long clubs which makes them usually lose control of the face and the ball goes everywhere

* a lot of people aren't very good at hitting out of bunkers
it's like a 1 stroke penalty; 25 pct success rate in up-and-down when in a bunker

* the players with the best strategy shoot the lowest scores
the most powerful muscle and most important one on any course anywhere is the one between your ears; think about the results you want before you grip-and-rip

* keeping it in the fairway or the short rough is THE MOST IMPORTANT THING in order to achieve a good score
bar none; if you want par or lower your chances from the rough as an amateur can be tough

* an average long game+good short game beats a good long game+average short game every time
at one point in time I read something like 60% of the game is 100 yards and in or something like that; I absolutely believe it and have played with enough seniors and women seeing it first hand

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, GolfSpy Stroker said:

I play as a single at public courses a lot.... that being said I'm paired with golfers of all sorts of abilities and it's a great insight into a number of things.

* long is good if you can hit it again
I see folks swing harder than they should with long clubs which makes them usually lose control of the face and the ball goes everywhere

* a lot of people aren't very good at hitting out of bunkers
it's like a 1 stroke penalty; 25 pct success rate in up-and-down when in a bunker

* the players with the best strategy shoot the lowest scores
the most powerful muscle and most important one on any course anywhere is the one between your ears; think about the results you want before you grip-and-rip

* keeping it in the fairway or the short rough is THE MOST IMPORTANT THING in order to achieve a good score
bar none; if you want par or lower your chances from the rough as an amateur can be tough

* an average long game+good short game beats a good long game+average short game every time
at one point in time I read something like 60% of the game is 100 yards and in or something like that; I absolutely believe it and have played with enough seniors and women seeing it first hand

 

 

 

I love you but the data doesn't back you up -

I will agree that beyond a doubt on a given day you can only come to the course with what you have so course management is a very important thing and under rated element to scoring.  25 percent up and down from traps?  Show me an AM or even a scratch player who does that - avoiding traps is the more important stat (course management) and next is averaging 3 once you're in them - they are close to or even greater than a one stroke penalty for certain.

 

A good long game and average short game creams anything else - but let's define that - good long game means hitting over 10 greens and not taking any penalty strokes - an average one is 5 greens and two penalty strokes - I don't think a touring pro can offset that difference with his game around the green, if the player in question truly has an average short game. 

As a frequent solo flier you're coming to the course and playing with lots of people whose games you don't know.  It's hard to judge what they normally do, you're getting a snap shot.  I can show you lots of snap shots of my game or my life that might lead to false conclusions about either. 🙂

 

Cool topic - maybe we can avoid jacking threads by coming here when this comes up - I suspect that is a part of the motivation behind this post.

 

 

 

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It really depends on the day.  The past 2 weeks I have been hot garbage around the green for about 60% of the holes played, but was pure off of the tee--I cost myself 5-7 strokes around the greens through 9.  This past summer I shot one of my best rounds ever at a course I had never played before and I put 6 balls OB off of the tee through 18.  Short game was the best it ever had been that day.  Ultimately my bad days on either side of the distance spectrum cost me about the same number of strokes per 18. 

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53 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I'm in the minority so far.  Solid play off the tee, including both reasonable distance AND elimination of penalties, is critical to good scores.  I've modified this from the actual poll, avoiding penalties is easy, but many of us would need to sacrifice significant distance to do it.  No part of the game is unimportant, but the ability to drive it in play is one of the more important facets.

I definitely don't disagree with this, as up to 4 years or so ago, I would typically have 2 to 3 OB balls off the tee a round.  So I was already starting with a score of 78 🤐  So mp doubt it is very important.  And like you said, no part is unimportant!

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21 minutes ago, revkev said:

A good long game and average short game creams anything else - but let's define that - good long game means hitting over 10 greens and not taking any penalty strokes - an average one is 5 greens and two penalty strokes - I don't think a touring pro can offset that difference with his game around the green, if the player in question truly has an average short game. 

To make this point a little clearer, imagine Tiger hitting 36 shots, the regulation number off of each tee, and I'll play the rest of the way into the hole.  I'll have a bunch of birdie looks, and a good number of short chips to get up and down for par or better.  Then lets imagine ME hitting those same 36 shots, and Tiger finishing out (poor guy!).  He's going start after I've had a penalty stroke or two, a few chips out of the trees, and he'll be trying to get up and down from 50 or 100 yards for par way too often.  The first team will beat the second team every time.

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In my case, it's the tee ball, and it's not particularly close. On rounds where I happen to be getting off the tee well, I will score better. I may have a relatively bad day from 100-in, but it may only add a few strokes, whereas penalties and/or punch-outs from the trees add up to more for me.

 

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To me the qualifier of "average golfers game" changes the answer. For the vast majority of average golfers, if they averaged 3-4 strokes from 100 and in it would change their scores dramatically. To me it has always been the easiest way to lower score. However I do believe that driving is one of the most important parts of the game. 

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3 hours ago, revkev said:

Exactly - and what holds at the top levels is true all the way through - I'm not good at importing outside stats (age and the fact that my technological helper is busy planning her wedding).  This same graph could be put up for handicap categories - pro - plus - 0-5 - 5-10 - 11-15 - 16- 20, 20 and above - the biggest gap will be either in average driving distance or strokes gained driving.  Avoiding penalties and maximizing distance are the key to shooting the lowest score possible.

But the question is which may be the best way for the average golf to save strokes.  That changes things because it is not easy to add distance or accuracy off the tee.  Doing that requires working out, taking lessons and practicing all of which require time and money something that many of us don't have or don't prioritize enough to do.  Working on the game from inside 100 may be done for the cost of one short game lesson and as little as two half hour practice sessions (for free around a practice green) per week.  That's doable for most people during lunch or on the way home from or to work.

 

I get why many would say inside 100.  Still, I think that very few will take advantage of the opportunity.  Even if they are willing to spend the time they are highly unlikely to take a short game lesson or two - after all - we're guys - we don't like to ask for or receive help. 🙂  For that reason I voted for off the tee with no penalties - all the data suggests its the correct answer - but again we're guys - we aren't about to let the facts stand in the way of what we do. 🙂 

My best friend was my golf partner for juniors and through high school. 5’6”, not a long hitter but holy cow could he putt. I’d hit a tee shot 100 yards beyond him and he’d still whoop my butt because we all know why...at our level, strokes are made from inside 50-100 yards...at least, that’s my bias for us non-tour folks 😊

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I based my answer (drive off of the tee into play) based on what I witness week in and week out not only with my game, but everyone else's game on my home course, Kinderlou Forest.

Simply put, if you do not put your ball into play off of the tee at Kinderlou, you might as well just write down the double bogey.  If you miss the fairway, or immediate rough around the fairway, the ball is most likely unplayable, or in an area where recovery is going to be pretty hard if not impossible.  I'm giving myself a chance at par if I hit the fairway, but I've got virtually no shot at par if I miss badly off of the tee.

And honestly, the way my home course is set up, the only time I have 100 yards or less in is on the par 5s.  One, maybe two par 4s I could have 100 yards or less in, but mostly it's mid iron into par fours, so that 100 yards and in shot simply doesn't matter at my home course.  Also, even if I chunk that 100 yard shot, or miss it otherwise, I can still get up and down for par.

But miss the fairway at my home course, and you just go ahead and pencil in the double and move on to the next hole.

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3 hours ago, GolfSpy Stroker said:

 

* an average long game+good short game beats a good long game+average short game every time
at one point in time I read something like 60% of the game is 100 yards and in or something like that; I absolutely believe it and have played with enough seniors and women seeing it first hand

I've mentioned this before - for me at least a good solid drive is important because it mentally sets me up for the rest of the hole.

In terms of really long drives - I've been spending lots of time recently at our local GOlfzon simulator and watching relatively new  (and young) golfers driving it  250-300 yds. What I find fascinating is that while I'm envious of those long drives after 18 holes my scores aren't that much different and often times better than theirs. 

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3 hours ago, revkev said:

I get why many would say inside 100.  Still, I think that very few will take advantage of the opportunity.  Even if they are willing to spend the time they are highly unlikely to take a short game lesson or two - after all - we're guys - we don't like to ask for or receive help. 🙂  For that reason I voted for off the tee with no penalties - all the data suggests its the correct answer - but again we're guys - we aren't about to let the facts stand in the way of what we do. 🙂 

 

... Addressing the above first. When I was teaching I offered a free short game lesson with a 5 lesson package. So pay for 5 lessons up front and get a 6th short game lesson thrown in for free. The reason was twofold. The free lesson gave me an advantage over other teachers but more importantly I never had a student that could not benefit from a short game lesson. Maybe the entire short game spectrum or maybe just an element of their short game. It did not take me long to become disappointed because I would guess around 50% if my students asked for their free lesson to be a normal full swing lesson. I tried to gently dissuade them but the last thing you want to do is make your student unhappy, so if the gentle persuasion did not work I happily gave them another full lesson. So Rev you were even more right than you probably realized. 

... I think the answer is not clear cut and can even be different for every golfer. Playing a links style course the tee game is almost irrelevant. Of course a good tee shot sets up the hole but a bad one, if not a penalty or tall heather or some kind of unplayable lie, means you can still savea par with a good short game. Otoh if there is water everywhere off the tee or deep woods and you are very errant off the tee, a short game is not going to help you when you are hitting 3 from a position where you can't reach the green.

... But for the most golfers and most courses, I would say 100 yds in. The amount of times I have seen an average golfer take 2 or more shots to escape a bunker, hit a fat chip 2 feet or blade one across the green ending up with a double, triple or worse far outweighs one penalty tee shot. Obviously OB is more penal. Even with a topped 100 yd tee shot you can salvage a bogie with a decent iron/hybrid/fw wood shot, followed by a decent chip and 2 putts. But sitting next to the green and blading a chip shot over the green usually into a worse lie and position than the chip you just hit, not only adds strokes it takes a toll on your psyche and confidence. 

... And finally the tee shot is a dynamic athletic move that is much more difficult to improve than a pitch, chip or sand shot. Pitches, chips and sand shots are the easiest shots in the game to pull off if you have even decent technique and confidence. Now you may not get it close to the pin but getting it on the green for a 2 putt should be easy. Fine tuning those chips and sand shots to give you the ability to get up and down is again, easier than learning to hit it long and straight off the tee. Obviously this is not true for every single player and ymmv, but I think it is true for most average golfers. 

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53 minutes ago, tony@CIC said:

I've mentioned this before - for me at least a good solid drive is important because it mentally sets me up for the rest of the hole.

In terms of really long drives - I've been spending lots of time recently at our local GOlfzon simulator and watching relatively new  (and young) golfers driving it  250-300 yds. What I find fascinating is that while I'm envious of those long drives after 18 holes my scores aren't that much different and often times better than theirs. 

guess I should have been more specific ... let's try this again-

someone who can bomb it off the tee around 300 (think baseball player) but is average - at best - after that (sucks out of the bunker, a skulled shot around the green but sometimes a great shot next to the pin - zero consistency)

vs.

someone who can find the fairway at an average distance and can consistently keep it in play and is good at getting it on / close and rarely ever 3 putts

person #2 wins most of the time.  I've seen it more than once.
I don't really care to clarify what that means by # of GIR and % of fwy hit, etc.

Golf isn't a 1 swing game like baseball - sure it's fun to hit a mile and watch everyone ooo and ah but how many Long Drive competitors do you think would even be able to make it on the Korn Ferry tour?

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28 minutes ago, chisag said:

... And finally the tee shot is a dynamic athletic move that is much more difficult to improve than a pitch, chip or sand shot. Pitches, chips and sand shots are the easiest shots in the game to pull off if you have even decent technique and confidence. Now you may not get it close to the pin but getting it on the green for a 2 putt should be easy. Fine tuning those chips and sand shots to give you the ability to get up and down is again, easier than learning to hit it long and straight off the tee. Obviously this is not true for every single player and ymmv, but I think it is true for most average golfers. 

This brings up another way to look at the original question.  If the genie in the bottle gave that average player a choice, miraculously improved driving or miraculously improved wedge play, which should he choose?  In my mind, because it tougher to make full swing improvements, the kind that will help driving performance, he should choose magically improved driving.  As you say, its much easier for him to improve wedge play on his own.

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Strokes gained as a metric is decidedly skewed in favour of off the tee play. That being said, this is a hard question to answer without knowing where a player is gaining/losing strokes. This is why things like Arccos, MyRoundPro, GolfMetrics, and other stat tracking apps that give you actual strokes gained metrics are a must have, imo.

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I used to think short game but now I think off the tee.  Theres such an advantage to being able to hit it 225-250 yards out into the fairway.  It sets up your 2nd shot and sets up the rest of the hole.  If you chunk or top it off the tee and your first shot only goes 50 yards, it kills that hole and makes it almost impossible to come back and make par.

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3 hours ago, GolfSpy Stroker said:

someone who can find the fairway at an average distance and can consistently keep it in play and is good at getting it on / close and rarely ever 3 putts

I agree - guess I wasn't clear enough. Those guys bombing it (that I mentioned) are usually way right or left of the fairway and sometimes OB, and inconsistent with there shorter clubs which is where I end up picking up strokes. Now if only I could bomb it down the middle of the faIrway AND have a perfect short game.........

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A discussion in another thread, brought this topic up. 
Where do you think is the best opportunity for a golfer to save strokes, off the tee or 100 yards in with the short game.   
I think it's going to vary depending on the golfer, if you can not get off the tee in play to save your life----and I've been there in the pas..fortunately no more--you are going to be shooting for double bogey or worst just about every time.    But if you can't hit a green and have bad wedge play, you are potentially throwing away easy strokes around the green.
So let's hear what everyone thinks.  Answer the poll above so we can see what the general thought is. 

Hmm. All shots inside 100 yards vs one shot off the tee? Putts included?
If a single shot from 100 yards OR inside that, vs a drive, it depends on the course for me. Our courses where I live have fairways that are 25 yards wide, and lined with HUGE oaks, so if I’m offline, it’s a guarantee chip-out. In this case, the drive would be more important. If I’m playing a course that has 60 yard-wide fairways with no trees, just rough, I go with the 100 yard shot being more important.
Course design and set-up seem to be the factor for me. Look at the fairways in Hawaii the Tour played a few weeks back at Kapalua: 100 yards wide! Driver is less of a factor.



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My response is tee shot is highly important. So important that I will hit a 6 or 7 off the tee to be in the fairway for another 6 or 7 into the green, even if I'm short then pitch and run and putt.

No penalty shots off the tee is key.

I do whatever is necessary to stay out of bunkers, again, even if it means hitting short on tee shot to avoid fairway bunker and playing for bogey.

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Been thinking about this for a while.

People often bring up strokes gained numbers and how that states that the longer you hit it the better.  The problem with discussing strokes gained in this context is that stroke gained is a comparison number.   It show how many shots players take from a particular distance.  By simply hitting it longer off the tee or straighter off the tee doesn't guarantee improvements since you still have to complete the hole.   Improving your short game doesn't guarantee improvement since you had to do well to get to the short game aspect.   

Each average player needs to evaluate their game for where improvements are necessary.  For one average player it could be the tee shot and for another it could be 100 and in.  

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I'm going with 100 yards and in. As someone who tends to have more than my share of penalties off the tee, a bad approach shot for me is more common. Going over and leaving no good recovery shot, ending in greenside bunkers, etc. are all problems when you don't have your wedges dialed in. You can pull another club off the tee to minimize OB penalties, but from 100 yards, a wedge is pretty much your only play. 

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