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Off the Tee or 100 Yards In....

More Important to Lowering Your Score--Off the Tee or 100 Yards In  

36 members have voted

  1. 1. What part of the average golfers game is the best opportunity to save strokes, getting off the tee safely-avoiding penalty strokes or having a good wedge game 100 yards in--but not counting putting, just your wedge play.

    • Off the Tee No Penalties
      16
    • 100 Yards In No chunks, skulls etc.
      20


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My vote is "Off the tee no penalties".  My driver is a blessing and a curse.  If I keep it in play within reason, I'm going to have a wedge in my hand on +90% of par 4s in my area and a good chance to be on or around the green in 2 on par 5s.  Even if I miss the green, I've still got a great shot at getting up and down.  It's why I've really started working on course management and playing my 3 wood or DI off the tee more often if trouble is present.  It may take birdie off the table on some holes, but making par is better than a double bogey every day of the week.  If my driver is off, it's a given that I'm going to struggle to score, no matter how good I'm hitting everything else.

I saw something on another site in the past that was talking about how much more difficult it is to find fairways the farther you hit.  Essentially, a face/path ratio of 3 degrees when carrying the ball 270 yards is a lot more drastic than being off 3 degrees face to path when carrying 200 yards.  Granted, 3 degrees is a pretty bad miss, but that miss is amplified the further you hit.

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3 hours ago, GolfSpy Stroker said:

there's nothing wrong with getting a par.

said Nick Faldo..................😉

 

and he was right


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Best thing that I have read today...

“Higher handicap players know how to take a four or five and turn it into a six,” said GOLF Top 100 Teacher Tony Ruggiero. 

TRUTH


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Lets look at this Mathematically. 72 strokes is par. Yes, I know par can be just about anything between 66-72.. But most are 72..  2 putt every green there are Half your strokes.. Again, I know some people are better putters or hit it closer. So now we have 18 tee shots and 18 Approach" shots..  How many of us could Live with, not like but live with 20 off the tee, 1 penalty each side, or punch out but an extra stroke... that doesn't seem terrible, not great but mostly livable.. .. But lets be realistic MOST of us would be farting Rainbows and glitter if we could get the rest of our round done with 18 strokes, Hell 20... I do realize of those 20 strokes not off the tee or putting, some are from further then 100 yds.. I think most of us would agree we give up more strokes in the approach shot category then anywhere else..  Just my thoughts, I would love to be confidant that I could get around in 18 approach shot per round..


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Fun question
strokes-gained-spreadsheet-with-regard-t

Scoring gains are relative to the individual golfer’s ability.  Strokes gained (SG) Exposes quality of shot based on lie and proximity to the hole.  Thus, course setup is important too.  It is interesting that an approach 160 fairway is equivalent to 90 deep rough or 50 sand to leave a 30’ putt.  The  following links to SG charts are helpful in seeing the significance of shots (Tee to green & putting).  

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxFSlVhPo9ObWmZKd3B4eV84Q1U/

https://eyelinegolf.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/strokes-gained-putting_-baseline-probabilities-chart-pgatour-com-1.jpg

The current state of my game reveals my approach shots (120 to 180) are more important to lowering my scores.  This glaringly obvious when I play forward tees or have a great driving day.

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From the ShotScope blogs Stroker referenced above - Article

Greens in regulation is a stat that comes hand in hand with approach shots. This traditional statistic is built by firstly hitting a tee shot that enables you to hit the green, then by hitting your second shot onto the green (on a par 4).

Shot Scope data has revealed there is a significant decrease in GIR percentage between an 8 and a 14 handicapper. Why? It is mainly due to the fact that, generally, a 14 handicapper won’t hit it quite as far and can’t reach some holes in regulation. Alternatively, it can be that the higher handicap player is less likely to keep the ball in play off the tee, which means they have no shot to the green with their 2nd shot and have no choice but to lay up/chip out.


We like the fact that MGS is data driven, right?  Shot Scope has your data.

What makes for a great debate is we’re all individuals, all different.  My strength (if I had any,) is your weakness.

Cheers!


Sent from my iPad using MyGolfSpy

Edited by toehold57
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To make this point a little clearer, imagine Tiger hitting 36 shots, the regulation number off of each tee, and I'll play the rest of the way into the hole.  I'll have a bunch of birdie looks, and a good number of short chips to get up and down for par or better.  Then lets imagine ME hitting those same 36 shots, and Tiger finishing out (poor guy!).  He's going start after I've had a penalty stroke or two, a few chips out of the trees, and he'll be trying to get up and down from 50 or 100 yards for par way too often.  The first team will beat the second team every time.


This is a great illustration - of course Tiger would also play his approach shots a bit more conservatively if he knew that he had to deal with our short games. :)


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How about looking at it this way:

According to my shot tracking system -
The longest club in my bag hits the ball 230 yards pretty straight with very few penalties.

With putter from 24 feet I one putt a bit under 10 percent of the time.

My handicap index is currently 6.0

A top touring pro’s drive goes 310 relatively straight with very few penalties

He holes a bit more than 10 percent of his putts from 24 feet.

His advantage with driver has already eliminated 20 percent of the course yardage - people make fun of me for this argument but it’s a course - if I hit the clubs that cover large distances well the shorter ones have a much easier job to perform.

Having written that it remains “simpler” for most people to improve by working on their short game. I just don’t think they will take the steps necessary to do it. Lesson and practice (an investment of $50 or so)

To improve driving takes working out, lessons and practice - hundreds if not thousands of dollars - highly unlikely



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Tour Exotics EX 10 3 wood

Ping G410 5-9 wood

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SCOR 48,52,58

EVNRoll ER 5

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Off the tee or 100 yards in?

Neither.

I saved almost 90 strokes when they installed a pool table in the clubhouse.

 

Edited by NiftyNiblick
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2 hours ago, toehold57 said:

From the ShotScope blogs Stroker referenced above - Article

Greens in regulation is a stat that comes hand in hand with approach shots. This traditional statistic is built by firstly hitting a tee shot that enables you to hit the green, then by hitting your second shot onto the green (on a par 4).

Shot Scope data has revealed there is a significant decrease in GIR percentage between an 8 and a 14 handicapper. Why? It is mainly due to the fact that, generally, a 14 handicapper won’t hit it quite as far and can’t reach some holes in regulation. Alternatively, it can be that the higher handicap player is less likely to keep the ball in play off the tee, which means they have no shot to the green with their 2nd shot and have no choice but to lay up/chip out.


We like the fact that MGS is data driven, right?  Shot Scope has your data.

What makes for a great debate is we’re all individuals, all different.  My strength (if I had any,) is your weakness.

Cheers!


Sent from my iPad using MyGolfSpy

👆

I think the #1 imperative (short/long/mid/approach) - is clear.... get the ball in play and keep it in play.

Once you can master that you can start to work on distance and short game.  Until then you're kind of just spinning your wheels.

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On 1/23/2020 at 9:09 AM, DaveP043 said:

To make this point a little clearer, imagine Tiger hitting 36 shots, the regulation number off of each tee, and I'll play the rest of the way into the hole.  I'll have a bunch of birdie looks, and a good number of short chips to get up and down for par or better.  Then lets imagine ME hitting those same 36 shots, and Tiger finishing out (poor guy!).  He's going start after I've had a penalty stroke or two, a few chips out of the trees, and he'll be trying to get up and down from 50 or 100 yards for par way too often.  The first team will beat the second team every time.


Since I’ve been sucked into this topic, another set of data points, sorta.  I don’t really have a dog in this hunt but it’s fun to play along 😁

A couple of videos that tested this hypothesis from Golf Sidekick-


and

 

Edited by toehold57
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1 hour ago, revkev said:

Having written that it remains “simpler” for most people to improve by working on their short game. I just don’t think they will take the steps necessary to do it. Lesson and practice (an investment of $50 or so)

To improve driving takes working out, lessons and practice - hundreds if not thousands of dollars

Agreed.  During warm weather I can spend an evening chipping and putting at a lighted driving range (we only have one here) at zero cost besides time.

To work on the top end of the bag requires costs beyond time.  A lot of folks will hesitate.

Another data point of one.  I invested $200 at my local 1st Tee for a season pass at their indoor practice facility and have been going 2-3 times a week since November.  According to the ‘About Golf’ launch monitors (not the best in the world) my game has picked up significantly.  Swing speed on irons and woods are up 5-10mph, and climbing.  Dispersion and spin is headed in the right direction as well.  This is without any lessons.

I was able to play last week for the first time in a month and the improvements indoors carried over.  Ball striking was much improved, consistency shot over shot as well.  It was fun to see, despite 40 degree temps and frozen greens.

My takeaway is I have to put in the time if my game is going to improve.  Unless I do the work I’ll remain a hack, I have higher ambitions *for myself*

Might have wandered a little off topic here...

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"Since I’ve been sucked into this topic, another set of data points, sorta.  I don’t really have a dog in this hunt but it’s fun to play along 😁  A couple of videos that tested this hypothesis from Golf Sidekick-"


... Thanks for those. Excellent illustration as well as an enjoyable watch! 


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On 1/24/2020 at 10:57 AM, GolfSpy Stroker said:

there's nothing wrong with getting a par.

Pars are my 🐦

On 1/24/2020 at 10:42 AM, chisag said:

 

... This is a great point and really drives home the short game importance. When I am swinging well I am hitting a lot of greens with plenty of birdie opportunities. When I am swinging poorly I am saving par. Hitting a big drive in the middle of the fairway assures me of nothing. We have all hit a great drive then squandered our approach shot. It is almost impossible to squander a great pitch or chip that results in a tap in or very short putt. I have always felt the biggest difference between low and high index players is the ability to get up and down when playing poorly so the difference between your best and worst holes is minimal for most low index players.

Your very last point made is spot on. Bogey, par, par, quadruple is not a rare occurrence on a scorecard for me.    I can build a snowman in the middle of summer all with the swing of a golf club.  

On 1/24/2020 at 4:32 PM, GolfSpy Stroker said:

Best thing that I have read today...

“Higher handicap players know how to take a four or five and turn it into a six,” said GOLF Top 100 Teacher Tony Ruggiero. 

TRUTH

If high scores were a profession, you could call me Tiger.  

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No matter what you do off the tee, your short game will save you strokes. Bad tee shot but solid short game can still be par. Great tee shot but bad short game can be double bogey.

Ultimately, the 100 yard in game is more important.

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9 hours ago, ga_pike said:

No matter what you do off the tee, your short game will save you strokes. Bad tee shot but solid short game can still be par. Great tee shot but bad short game can be double bogey.

Ultimately, the 100 yard in game is more important.

Bad tee shots, OB or lost, means a struggle for double most times.  

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21 hours ago, toehold57 said:


Since I’ve been sucked into this topic, another set of data points, sorta.  I don’t really have a dog in this hunt but it’s fun to play along 😁

A couple of videos that tested this hypothesis from Golf Sidekick-

I need to watch those again, I did a while ago.  If my memory serves me right, they started from an assumption, and designed their "experiment" in a way to support that assumption.  


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I voted off the tee, and here's why.  The way the question is written we are only talking about getting safely off the tee (no penalty, no tree's, didn't top it or chunk it) vs 100yds and in wedge game.

Realistically how often are you hitting your 2nd shot from 100yds and in?  The only way most AM's are hitting this shot is if they miss a green.  We get 18 tee shots in a round.  So if you even only hit 3 GIN, that's 15 times you are hitting wedge from 100yds and in.  If you are safe off every single tee box I"m guessing that GIN number will increase as well so then you hit even less shots from 100yds and in.

So the way the question is worded for the average golfer, off the tee should absolutely be the answer.


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2 minutes ago, hckymeyer said:

I voted off the tee, and here's why.  The way the question is written we are only talking about getting safely off the tee (no penalty, no tree's, didn't top it or chunk it) vs 100yds and in wedge game.

Realistically how often are you hitting your 2nd shot from 100yds and in?  The only way most AM's are hitting this shot is if they miss a green.  We get 18 tee shots in a round.  So if you even only hit 3 GIN, that's 15 times you are hitting wedge from 100yds and in.  If you are safe off every single tee box I"m guessing that GIN number will increase as well so then you hit even less shots from 100yds and in.

So the way the question is worded for the average golfer, off the tee should be absolutely be the answer.

I tend to agree.

Nuclear holes almost always result from errant drives.

On a scary tight driving hole, it would be easy to take oneself out of the hole with one swing.

I'd slap a driving iron safely onto the short grass, disaster avoided, but now I have an approach shot of well over 100 yards.

Let's say I don't make the GIR.

A bad pitch, chip, cut lob, sand shot, or even lag putt might cost you a shot.

An errant drive could cost you a snowman.


 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, hckymeyer said:

I voted off the tee, and here's why.  The way the question is written we are only talking about getting safely off the tee (no penalty, no tree's, didn't top it or chunk it) vs 100yds and in wedge game.

Realistically how often are you hitting your 2nd shot from 100yds and in?  The only way most AM's are hitting this shot is if they miss a green.  We get 18 tee shots in a round.  So if you even only hit 3 GIN, that's 15 times you are hitting wedge from 100yds and in.  If you are safe off every single tee box I"m guessing that GIN number will increase as well so then you hit even less shots from 100yds and in.

So the way the question is worded for the average golfer, off the tee should absolutely be the answer.

Fair point on the wording.  My intent more simply was.  What is more important the short--game---considering putting as its own category---or tee game.  Ultimately we know they are all important.   And has been mentioned several times, It will likely be different for each person. 

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