Loft-jacked distance irons

[lgv44]

So, I seeing the reduced lofts in a bunch of irons:  Titleist T400,  Epic Forged, P790TI, SIM, 0311xp.   Oh, but the actual launch angle is still the same because of changed CG.  Is it?  Or does one need to really check it out a launch monitor?   Should I consider a higher launch shaft with these lower lofted irons, or does the lower CG really do the entire offset?

I currently use Steelfiber95 and am thinking of SteelfiberFC80.   My normal trajectory is just a little lower than medium.

 

 

[null]

Simple answer - get fit. 

It's the only way of knowing what is going to work for your swing.  Shafts that are "high launch" don't automatically launch the ball higher and low launch shafts dont launch the ball lower.

All it means is they have different bend and stiffness profiles and everyone reacts differently to weight, stiffness and profile. 

Before spending over a thousand dollars on a new set of irons, go to club champion or True Spec and spend the $100 on an iron fitting.  It will be worth every penny

[perseveringgolfer]

The reduced lofts in the GI clubs are purely because these irons launch higher.

[NRJyzr]

The marketing departments would tell you it's a trajectory thing, but I tend to pay attention to Tom Wishon, who says it's BS.

In the old days, they said it was because the CGs are lower and farther back.  Then Maltby and GolfWorks started releasing CG location data, which shows it's not.  Now, marketing doesn't talk about CGs, they just say it's trajectory.  Color me skeptical.

My take is, if you're playing a set that hits the ball too high for its loft, perhaps you should look at a different club.  You wouldn't hit a driver you hit too high, would you?   

Edited January 24, 2020 by NRJyzr

[chisag]

... Like many things in this game I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Yes, they need to reduce the loft because these irons are launching higher. Yes, they want to reduce the loft so they can claim more distance. As jlukes said above, if you have any kind of doubt at all, get fit. 

[DiscipleofPenick]

I just caught a video the other day. The M6 5 iron is the same loft as the R7 3 iron. It's getting crazy. No wonder lots of GI sets don't go lower than a 5 or 6 anymore.

Take Dead Aim

[Golfspy_CG2]

We're becoming WRX

Ha.  That's not all bad

[Tarheelvolvo]

14 minutes ago, Tsmithjr9 said:

I just caught a video the other day. The M6 5 iron is the same loft as the R7 3 iron. It's getting crazy. No wonder lots of GI sets don't go lower than a 5 or 6 anymore.

Take Dead Aim
 

I talked about this very issue when I reviewed the Wilson D7's. Compared to my old DCI's I was playing at the time the loft was increased, on average, about 5* per iron...just crazy. Had to completely retool my bag, drop all FW's since the 4i was @ 19* and then add in 2 more wedges. 

Needless to say, I'm not a fan of the loft jacking...

[chisag]

6 minutes ago, Tarheelvolvo said:

I talked about this very issue when I reviewed the Wilson D7's. Compared to my old DCI's I was playing at the time the loft was increased, on average, about 5* per iron...just crazy. Had to completely retool my bag, drop all FW's since the 4i was @ 19* and then add in 2 more wedges. 

Needless to say, I'm not a fan of the loft jacking...

 

... To be fair, almost all "jacked iron" come with a GW. If you order a GW - 5 iron you have almost the same set as an older PW-4 iron with many of the new sets. Yes, us old school golfers had to learn to transpose yardage when the trend started, but I am used to it now and my yardages with my current irons are almost exactly the same with one less club than it was for most of my golfing life. So instead of a full 8 iron for a 150yd shot, and now I hit a full 9 iron. And we have the added amusement of Nifty rants. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

4 hours ago, jlukes said:

Simple answer - get fit. 

It's the only way of knowing what is going to work for your swing.  Shafts that are "high launch" don't automatically launch the ball higher and low launch shafts dont launch the ball lower.

All it means is they have different bend and stiffness profiles and everyone reacts differently to weight, stiffness and profile. 

Before spending over a thousand dollars on a new set of irons, go to club champion or True Spec and spend the $100 on an iron fitting.  It will be worth every penny

So much truth.

one day this topic will die.

[russtopherb]

2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

So much truth.

one day this topic will die.

Unfortunately, that day is not today. 

[cnosil]

I love how the "jacked loft" discussion always comes up.  Fit or not fit,  you need to pick clubs that allow you to cover distances with generally 10-15 yard gaps between clubs, good spin/descent angle to prevent lots of rollout, and have the knowledge to know what club carries the ball a particular distance.  I couldn't tell you the loft on my clubs and I honestly don't care.  

[PMookie]

Here’s an answer........... Buy clubs with lofts that aren’t “jacked”! Clubs from 1980 were jacked compared to 1960. 1960s were jacked compared to 1920. 1920s were jacked compared to 1261 when the first known reference to “kolf” was made by the Dutch!

While you’re at it, buy a bunch of feathers covered with leather, because ball tech is the REAL problem these days!

 

Good gracious. Play. A. 30*. Five. Iron. If. It. Makes. You. HAPPY!

 

p.s. Make sure to “drive” to the course in your horse-drawn wagon too because car engines have gotten way too fast!

Heck, why use the internet?!

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

 

[Tarheelvolvo]

To clarify, since it feels like my words are being taken as a cantankerous old man who also wants to "make things great again" and "back in my day I had to walk uphill both ways", I wanted to also note that the newer tech in clubs is a welcome addition. 

It has allowed more players to enjoy the game with less frustration, less lost balls, and hopefully lower scores. The added forgiveness in my D7's has certainly saved my butt a few times, and I've really enjoyed the clubs overall - especially when moving from my old DCI'S

It's a small annoyance to have to retool your bag, but I, along with the rest of you guys, have adjusted and ultimately enjoy the game more!

[fixyurdivot]

The G410's are offered in a "powerloft" option - much nicer way of saying "jacked lofts"... gotta love marketing folks .   +3 on the go get fitted recommendation; particularly as it pertains to a question like which loft option is best.  In may case the fitter felt standard loft was a much better option.

[NiftyNiblick]

The manufacturers don't seem to know that I'm out of action.

They're doing these ridiculously strong lofts specifically to force me back into hickories.

If I were still playing, I wouldn't have a clue how to configure a whole bag starting with these ultra strong lofted irons.

I predict a 1-iron-lofted flop wedge before the end of this decade.

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, NiftyNiblick said:

The manufacturers don't seem to know that I'm out of action.

They're doing these ridiculously strong lofts specifically to force me back into hickories.

If I were still playing, I wouldn't have a clue how to configure a whole bag starting with these ultra strong lofted irons.

I predict a 1-iron-lofted flop wedge before the end of this decade.

Well the good thing is

1) there’s lots of reputable fitters that do full bag fittings and/or gapping sessions so one wouldn’t have to figure out how to setup the bag as it would be done for them.

2) Everyone is so into the loft numbers hat without a fitting they could presume that loft X goes Y distance and then build off that using some sort of system either following the OEMs design of 4-5* gap into the scoring clubs and wedges and 2-3* into the longer irons. Then determine what’s the lowest loft on an iron they want to play and fill in the top of the bag and use the remaining clubs to fill in the bottom half.  With wedges being cheaper than hybrids having 5-6 wedges isn’t a bad thing if you are buying 4 of them vice 2-4 hybrids and woods.

 

[null]

1 hour ago, NiftyNiblick said:

The manufacturers don't seem to know that I'm out of action.

They're doing these ridiculously strong lofts specifically to force me back into hickories.

If I were still playing, I wouldn't have a clue how to configure a whole bag starting with these ultra strong lofted irons.

I predict a 1-iron-lofted flop wedge before the end of this decade.

Your don't even play golf anymore. They're not forcing you into anything 

[silver & black]

So...... I have a question about fitting. I have buddies that spent a lot of money to get fit, only to be disappointed after the fact. I read all the the time on here how important it is to get fit.... it's the default answer to every question asked.

How does one determine that the person doing the fitting knows what he/she is doing? I haven't gotten "fit" because I have limited funds to "waste" on non productive "things".... not just golf related. I would definitely find the money, IF I were positively sure it would make a significant difference in my play.

I'm just not convinced it's a  valid expenditure.

[RickyBobby_PR]

30 minutes ago, silver & black said:

So...... I have a question about fitting. I have buddies that spent a lot of money to get fit, only to be disappointed after the fact. I read all the the time on here how important it is to get fit.... it's the default answer to every question asked.

How does one determine that the person doing the fitting knows what he/she is doing? I haven't gotten "fit" because I have limited funds to "waste" on non productive "things".... not just golf related. I would definitely find the money, IF I were positively sure it would make a significant difference in my play.

I'm just not convinced it's a  valid expenditure.

Without some sort of review on the person/facility one won’t know if the fitter is good or bad. 2 years ago I got fit by ping tour van fitters. They were great. Last year 2 other guys were here with the van and they were terrible. They get trained at ping hq and the way they went about fitting it was easy to see they either didn’t know what they were doing or were just in the I don’t care mode.

one thing to do is talk with the fitter before scheduling and get their thought process/approach to fitting, are they brand agnostic or are they on staff or incentivized by a brand. A mini interview should help one know  

[NiftyNiblick]

4 hours ago, jlukes said:

Your don't even play golf anymore. They're not forcing you into anything 

Very good.  That seems to be what i said, too.

[TR1PTIK]

I think it’s safe to say that golfers should avoid department stores for club fittings. Beyond that, I suggest taking a close look at the information available. What do they say on their website? Do they offer any kind of fit guarantee or easy return/exchange window? What do Google reviews say? What technology are they using to collect data and what products do they carry for you to try? If you know of any golfers who have been fit in your area then try to get some information from them. Finally, you should call and have a conversation with the fitter about what concerns you have, and ask how they typically conduct the fitting. You might also try to dig around and find out what (if any) accolades or awards they’ve received from OEMs for outstanding performance. I know a fitter back home in MO was given some sort of award by Mizuno for being one of their top fitters for example. Seems silly, but if you have a tight budget and want to make sure you’re not throwing away money, you need to consider doing some research as though you were buying a car or something else of significant value.

[chisag]

46 minutes ago, silver & black said:

So...... I have a question about fitting. I have buddies that spent a lot of money to get fit, only to be disappointed after the fact. I read all the the time on here how important it is to get fit.... it's the default answer to every question asked.

How does one determine that the person doing the fitting knows what he/she is doing? I haven't gotten "fit" because I have limited funds to "waste" on non productive "things".... not just golf related. I would definitely find the money, IF I were positively sure it would make a significant difference in my play.

I'm just not convinced it's a  valid expenditure.

 

... With a qualified fitter it is almost always a valid expenditure, and even more so if you have never been fit. Again, almost all of my fittings have been beneficial and on point. Here are two stories that illustrate why I say almost. 

... I was doing a MP59 review many years ago. I was already playing MP63's so I knew my specs. I had fit myself with the use of a LM and I was playing KBS Tour, 1/2" long and soft stepped once and was very happy with them. I met the Mizuno rep and he put me through a fitting culminating with the Optomizer. At the end, his recommendation was KBS Tour, 1/2" long and soft stepped once. I had told him nothing and did not have my irons with me so I was extremely impressed.

... At the PGA Show, TaylorMade fit for me for a driver to review. I hit the RBZ and the R1 with a myriad of shafts. To my naked eye, it looked like the RBZ had a slightly higher trajectory and carried farther. But according to the numbers, the R1 was a hair higher and spun 500rpms less. It not only carried farther by a few yards, it had more roll because of the Angle Of Descent and reduced spin. The R1 was clearly the better performing driver for me, even though I liked the look/sound/feel of the RBZ just a little better. . But playing it on the course once it arrived, I had a hard time keeping it in play. My trajectory was lower than I liked to see and I missed both left and right, which is rare because my usual miss is just left. After trying to force myself to like it for a month, I called the VP of Marketing at TaylorMade and let him know my struggles with the R1. I told him I liked the look, the feel and the trajectory of the RBZ so he sent me the head since I was already in the right shaft. I liked it better the very first round and my accuracy returned. It hurt me a little into the wind and with soft fairways because my AOD was a little steep with a little more than ideal spin, but everything else was excellent. 

... There is simply no way for a fitter to know a club may be a bad match for reasons other than performance with a LM. Standing in one spot and grooving a swing tells you a clubs potential, but taking it to the course and using it off the tee once per hole where accuracy, wind and hazards come into play is a different animal. I know there are players that don't care what a club looks like at address, how it feels or sounds IF it performs well. I have always admired those players. But most of us care and if a club does not look/feel or sound right, we will usually start losing confidence in it if we are hitting it poorly. Most likely our swing is the culprit but the club gets the blame because there was always that little nagging thought that it just isn't quite right.

... Again, the majority of the time a fitting will put you in the best position to succeed with any given club(s) and you should always let your fitter know if you have any reservations about the look/sound/feel and they will use that information. But I think most of the time you see someone struggle with their new fitted clubs, it is because they are still tied too their old clubs or something about the new club just produced a sliver of doubt that blossomed until they lost confidence. 

... But if you have never been fit and even relatively serious about your game and equipment, I think a fitting is an absolute must. Worst case scenario is it confirms what you already know and best case is you are playing the wrong clubs/shafts for your swing. 

[Rickp]

I love how the "jacked loft" discussion always comes up.  Fit or not fit,  you need to pick clubs that allow you to cover distances with generally 10-15 yard gaps between clubs, good spin/descent angle to prevent lots of rollout, and have the knowledge to know what club carries the ball a particular distance.  I couldn't tell you the loft on my clubs and I honestly don't care.  

You and me both


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[cnosil]

5 hours ago, silver & black said:

IF I were positively sure it would make a significant difference in my play.

There have been some great answers to your question about fitting.  The key question I have for you is what do you define as a significant difference?   I am guessing it is performance based like more fairways, more greens,  few putts, or lower scores.    It could also be; but I would say not likely, that you are looking for a better understanding about your swing and what tools will work best.   Improvements are something that you probably can't measure in a single round but over time. 

Do you know if you are playing the best clubs for your swing?  

[tony@CIC]

So...... I have a question about fitting. I have buddies that spent a lot of money to get fit, only to be disappointed after the fact. I read all the the time on here how important it is to get fit.... it's the default answer to every question asked.
How does one determine that the person doing the fitting knows what he/she is doing? I haven't gotten "fit" because I have limited funds to "waste" on non productive "things".... not just golf related. I would definitely find the money, IF I were positively sure it would make a significant difference in my play.
I'm just not convinced it's a  valid expenditure.

You've seen some great responses here to your question. I'd add a different twist. Most of the non-corporate fitters in our area charge just south of $300. and they will refund a small portion of the fee if you buy club(s) from them. From my perspective I'd rather pay that fee then buy a club OTR that doesn't work for me. Don't ask how I know.


Sent from my iPad using MyGolfSpy

[Golfspy_CG2]

1 hour ago, Middler said:

Who here doesn’t know a player with all the best custom fitted golf clubs, apparel and equipment who averages about 95?

What if they were shooting 100+ prior to the fitting

[perseveringgolfer]

On 1/25/2020 at 2:12 AM, PMookie said:

Here’s an answer........... Buy clubs with lofts that aren’t “jacked”! Clubs from 1980 were jacked compared to 1960. 1960s were jacked compared to 1920. 1920s were jacked compared to 1261 when the first known reference to “kolf” was made by the Dutch!

While you’re at it, buy a bunch of feathers covered with leather, because ball tech is the REAL problem these days!

 

Good gracious. Play. A. 30*. Five. Iron. If. It. Makes. You. HAPPY!

 

p.s. Make sure to “drive” to the course in your horse-drawn wagon too because car engines have gotten way too fast!

Heck, why use the internet?!

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

 

hahaha very good- one 'slight' inaccuracy is the Scots first referenced 'gowf' in 1260 (a year before the finger in the dyke country) when they would go gowf hunting chasing haggis in the Scottish Highlands with a club a bit like the Irish shillelagh walking stick. Once captured they would use the poor Haggis body and try and hit it back into it's den/hole, the chaser that did it in the least number of 'hits' was the winner.

 

As Michael Caine would say.........."there's not a lot of people know that..."

 

 

 

[silver & black]

12 hours ago, cnosil said:

There have been some great answers to your question about fitting.  The key question I have for you is what do you define as a significant difference?   I am guessing it is performance based like more fairways, more greens,  few putts, or lower scores.    It could also be; but I would say not likely, that you are looking for a better understanding about your swing and what tools will work best.   Improvements are something that you probably can't measure in a single round but over time. 

Do you know if you are playing the best clubs for your swing?  

You are correct, I'm looking for all those things. I have taken a few lessons over the years and they have been relatively successful... when I could spend the time to work on what I learned.

Your question as to do I know if I'm playing the best clubs for my swing? No, I honestly don't. When I bought them, I hit quite a few different irons over a weekend. I ended up with MP64's and KBS Tour 90 shafts in S flex. They just felt right to me. I still like them and have no complaints about them, but I don't know if they are really the best clubs for my swing.

[cnosil]

42 minutes ago, silver & black said:

I still like them and have no complaints about them, but I don't know if they are really the best clubs for my swing.

So the next question is this:  If you did a fitting and they said those were the perfect clubs for you;  would you be happy?   If they said that you could optimize your numbers with a different head and/or shaft, what would you do?   How much improvement would be required?    Can you hit that configuration multiple times to see if you see that consistency over multiple sessions?  

The thing I learned during some putting lessons that applies across the bag.   You can learn about your swing and find clubs that fit those tendencies the best or you can change your swing to fit the clubs.  Over time,  most people fall back to their tendencies, especially under pressure,  so it is better to find clubs that fit those tendencies. 

look at clubs during a fitting and use them the way you would on a real course.   Do you just use a controlled swing,  do you occasionally go after a shot to get a little more out of the club,  to you hit a slower knockdown type shot?   Heads and shafts will react differently to all of those,  you need to try them all in a fitting,  not just a full swing.