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Stock vs Premium shafts, from the same OEM

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Apologies for a new post on this topic, I perused swiftly through MGS but didn't see anything quite on this.  

When/Where can us normal golfers find relevant information on the actual stock offerings of OEM shaft makers.  A current case in point is the Fujikura Ventus shafts; the PREMIUM version has the pitch 70-ton carbon fibers and 'Velocore' technology, the STOCK version does not. 

From the MGS SIM Driver review:

"Notice the asterisks on both Ventus shafts? I added them. While manufacturers like to use words like co-engineered, golfers are more familiar with made for, so let’s go with that. It’s exactly what we’re talking about there. This isn’t a real-deal Ventus (that one’s for you, JB). Unlike the aftermarket version, the TaylorMade version lacks full-length Pitch 70 fiber in the bias layer. It lacks VeloCore (Ventus’ signature technology) and will play softer in the tip section because of it. That may not be a bad thing for the middle of the bell curve off-the-rack buyer, but guys, nearly 100% of the Ventus story revolved around VeloCore With no VeloCore, what you’re left with is a golf shaft that’s decidedly not a Ventus.  As some of the traditional shenanigans have been exposed, manufactures have found new and creative ways to transform premium aftermarket shaft offerings into lower-cost OEM stock products. I suppose you can argue there’s an art to it, but when you consider that except for the small VeloCore logo near the tip, the cosmetics of the Ventus* and aftermarket Ventus shafts are otherwise identical, it’s hard to argue that there isn’t a conscious effort to deceive golfers here. The stock shaft game involves a good bit of back and forth between the club OEM and the shaft guys, and there are legitimate financial constraints in play, so rather than assign blame, I’ll just politely ask that everyone stop playing these kinds of games with golfers."

So Project X has the 'Small Batch' and shafts w/o that stamp, same shaft?  Doubt it. From the same SIM review "It should go without saying that the Smoke Green offering is not the tighter tolerance Small Batch version.".  So what kind of review will the STOCK version receive? (MGS, can you answer this?!)  MCA has their Tensei CK, AV, and Pro series (at least they differentiated the differences to some degree). All different materials though, same look.  How does the Orange compare between the 2 (ck/pro)?

 

Can we get MGS to call out and do independent reviews on the watered down versions given away on 'off the rack' drivers that the majority of golfers end up with?   

 

 

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... The short and very general answer is for the majority of average golfers, not only is there a difference between Made For and aftermarket shafts, most MF shafts fit them better than the aftermarket shafts. I use the Matrix Red as an example that Cobra had as stock in their driver several years ago. The Matrix Red profile was what the engineers identified as perfect for their head when hit by the majority of golfers. In testing shafts they found the AF Red's tip was a little too stiff causing a slightly lower trajectory and tended to leak a little right. They tested several prototypes and found that if they softened the flex a little and added more torque for feel and a slightly softer tip, they kept the mid launch mid spin profile but average golfers hit it much better than the stronger aftermarket Matrix Red. I would add most engineers know better players will almost always order a different shaft than stock, so in the case I just mentioned, the better player would not buy the Cobra with the after market Matrix Red anyway but install a shaft they know works for their swing. 

... Obviously not true for every single made for shaft, but the OEMs are in the business of selling drivers. Most golfers know very little, if anything at all concerning shafts, so the OEMs want the average golfer to demo a driver and hit it mid to high, straight and far. Again, most will struggle with an aftermarket shaft that has a stiffer tip and stouter over all profile.  I think the most successful driver ever proves this point. Ely Callaway knew ego's were involved with average male golfers that tended to chose too little loft and a shaft too stiff, so he did something absolutely brilliant. His Big Bertha's had higher lofts than were stamped on the club head, usually 2-3* higher and he took a Regular flex shaft and labeled it a Stiff flex. All of a sudden average golfers were hitting g their driver higher, straighter and farther and there was a waiting list of up to 6 months.  

... And to answer your specific question I play the Tensei CK Orange. As a + index with a smooth transition and a swing speed around 100, the softer overall profile of the CK Orange fits me better than the Pro Orange which is designed for more aggressive hitters/swingers and/or more club head speed. CK Orange's mid launch and low spin is much better for most golfers compared to the low launch and very low spin of the Pro Orange. 

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45 minutes ago, IB_Golfin' said:

Apologies for a new post on this topic, I perused swiftly through MGS but didn't see anything quite on this.  

When/Where can us normal golfers find relevant information on the actual stock offerings of OEM shaft makers.  A current case in point is the Fujikura Ventus shafts; the PREMIUM version has the pitch 70-ton carbon fibers and 'Velocore' technology, the STOCK version does not. 

From the MGS SIM Driver review:

"Notice the asterisks on both Ventus shafts? I added them. While manufacturers like to use words like co-engineered, golfers are more familiar with made for, so let’s go with that. It’s exactly what we’re talking about there. This isn’t a real-deal Ventus (that one’s for you, JB). Unlike the aftermarket version, the TaylorMade version lacks full-length Pitch 70 fiber in the bias layer. It lacks VeloCore (Ventus’ signature technology) and will play softer in the tip section because of it. That may not be a bad thing for the middle of the bell curve off-the-rack buyer, but guys, nearly 100% of the Ventus story revolved around VeloCore With no VeloCore, what you’re left with is a golf shaft that’s decidedly not a Ventus.  As some of the traditional shenanigans have been exposed, manufactures have found new and creative ways to transform premium aftermarket shaft offerings into lower-cost OEM stock products. I suppose you can argue there’s an art to it, but when you consider that except for the small VeloCore logo near the tip, the cosmetics of the Ventus* and aftermarket Ventus shafts are otherwise identical, it’s hard to argue that there isn’t a conscious effort to deceive golfers here. The stock shaft game involves a good bit of back and forth between the club OEM and the shaft guys, and there are legitimate financial constraints in play, so rather than assign blame, I’ll just politely ask that everyone stop playing these kinds of games with golfers."

So Project X has the 'Small Batch' and shafts w/o that stamp, same shaft?  Doubt it. From the same SIM review "It should go without saying that the Smoke Green offering is not the tighter tolerance Small Batch version.".  So what kind of review will the STOCK version receive? (MGS, can you answer this?!)  MCA has their Tensei CK, AV, and Pro series (at least they differentiated the differences to some degree). All different materials though, same look.  How does the Orange compare between the 2 (ck/pro)?

 

Can we get MGS to call out and do independent reviews on the watered down versions given away on 'off the rack' drivers that the majority of golfers end up with?   

 

 

Small batch with PX is generally referring to the TX flex in each of the offerings beside the smoke green which all have that designator on them. With that said the smoke green offered at no upcharge in the sim is the real deal.

Made for shafts have been a thing for a long time and aren’t going anywhere. Shaft companies aren’t typically going to give away the goods for free. Shaft companies and club companies work together all the time. The club companies go to a shaft company and Say we want a shaft that does x,y,z with out head that’s designed to be a,b,c.  They collaborate come up with a design and the shaft company may or may not sell the name for use. 
 

it’s also usually easily to tell when a shaft is the real deal by shaft markings or the paint. Shafts and head combos are designed to fit the majority of golfers who either don’t get fit or don’t want to spend more money on a club by using an aftermarket shaft.

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Can we get MGS to call out and do independent reviews on the watered down versions given away on 'off the rack' drivers that the majority of golfers end up with?   


Read the most wanted driver tests. They use the off the rack shafts in those clubs. The testers are fit to the shaft that fits best.

Any shaft is good if it fits your swing profile; doesn’t matter if it is the actual or made for version. The problem is the labeling of the shaft; not the quality, that leads consumers to believe the shafts are the aftermarket version.
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9 minutes ago, cnosil said:

 


Read the most wanted driver tests. They use the off the rack shafts in those clubs. The testers are fit to the shaft that fits best.

Any shaft is good if it fits your swing profile; doesn’t matter if it is the actual or made for version. The problem is the labeling of the shaft; not the quality, that leads consumers to believe the shafts are the aftermarket version.

 

Exactly. Most people aren’t going to find a huge difference in performance from the aftermarket shafts to the “stock” ones regardless of its a made for with the same name or just the general stock shafts that every brand uses.

In today’s market with the number of no upcharge shafts the vast majority of golfers will fit into one of the no upcharge offerings.

Then add in for those who don’t read forums and reviews and focus on either the hot list or go bu their typical I’m old so I need se flex or I swing somewhat fast so I’ll stay in stiff don’t know the difference between real deal and made for and are looking purely at name on the driver, loft and flex. 

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Never will disagree that one should be fit or use a shaft with a profile they prefer,  but where are the specs, numbers, and reviews for the MF Ventus shafts, since they are likely dramatically different than the real deal.  And I'm pretty sure the 'Small Batch' Px logo can be found on non-TX flex shafts also (Small Batch in a R-flex?).  

I'm not concerned with the different lines of shafts per OEM, but the Ventus stock option is much different than the AF version.  How MUCH different is what I'd like to know.  Is the tip torque doubled?  Bend points lower?  Spin rates 1,ooo RPMs higher?  I don't care that they differ, or offer stock options, I DO care that I want to know what I'm getting in a stock version.  Why not review them and compare them to see.  THOSE shafts should be reviewed also is what I'm saying.  How does the Px 'Small Batch' compare to the NON-small batch?

 

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38 minutes ago, IB_Golfin' said:

Never will disagree that one should be fit or use a shaft with a profile they prefer,  but where are the specs, numbers, and reviews for the MF Ventus shafts, since they are likely dramatically different than the real deal.  And I'm pretty sure the 'Small Batch' Px logo can be found on non-TX flex shafts also (Small Batch in a R-flex?).  

I'm not concerned with the different lines of shafts per OEM, but the Ventus stock option is much different than the AF version.  How MUCH different is what I'd like to know.  Is the tip torque doubled?  Bend points lower?  Spin rates 1,ooo RPMs higher?  I don't care that they differ, or offer stock options, I DO care that I want to know what I'm getting in a stock version.  Why not review them and compare them to see.  THOSE shafts should be reviewed also is what I'm saying.  How does the Px 'Small Batch' compare to the NON-small batch?

 

You obviously missed the term generally in reference to the PX shafts which means it’s not a hard and fast rule, and that yes you will find that logo on non TX shafts especially in the smoke green line as stated. You will also find that some are made in China and some are made in USA. Doesn’t mean they are different.

If you took the time to go to taylormade’s website and build out a driver with the ventus shaft instead of coming here and spewing disdain you would see that the specs for the non velocore ventus aka the made for are listed on the website when you select that shaft.

Spin rates are going to vary from individual to individual so a company is rarely going to list that anywhere regardless of aftermaket or not. You want to know the difference between them find a fitter that carries them including a TaylorMade demo day where the rep usually has every shaft available and you can compare how they perform for you.

Its great to come in and express your opinion and everyone’s informed opinion is welcome.
 

 

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Never will disagree that one should be fit or use a shaft with a profile they prefer,  but where are the specs, numbers, and reviews for the MF Ventus shafts, since they are likely dramatically different than the real deal.  And I'm pretty sure the 'Small Batch' Px logo can be found on non-TX flex shafts also (Small Batch in a R-flex?).  
I'm not concerned with the different lines of shafts per OEM, but the Ventus stock option is much different than the AF version.  How MUCH different is what I'd like to know.  Is the tip torque doubled?  Bend points lower?  Spin rates 1,ooo RPMs higher?  I don't care that they differ, or offer stock options, I DO care that I want to know what I'm getting in a stock version.  Why not review them and compare them to see.  THOSE shafts should be reviewed also is what I'm saying.  How does the Px 'Small Batch' compare to the NON-small batch?
 


Performance will differ per player. A high spin/launch shaft may actually be low/low for you and mid/high for me so it is hard to compare without actually hitting them. The numbers are just numbers. If you want actual bend profiles for the shaft there are some sites that you can pay to get the information or get in contact with fujikura or any manufacturer and ask them directly.
With a stock shaft you are getting a shaft profile that the OEM believes will fit the widest range of golfers in the particular head.
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I think many are missing the point I'm making between stock and after-market shafts from the same OEM.  Being 'fit' for, or having the stock version work 'best' for is one thing, having a shaft with 99% of the same paint scheme and name, WITHOUT BEING ANYTHING NEAR THE AFTER MARKET VERSION IS ANOTHER.

 

 

Edited by IB_Golfin'
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49 minutes ago, IB_Golfin' said:

I think many are missing the point I'm making between stock and after-market shafts from the same OEM.  Being 'fit' for, or having the stock version work 'best' for is one thing, having a shaft with 99% of the same paint scheme and name, WITHOUT BEING ANYTHING NEAR THE AFTER MARKET VERSION IS ANOTHER. 

Please read the image attached, rec'd from a Fuji sales rep this morning.  

So when is MGS going to do a STOCK SHAFT review of these types of lines?  At least companies like MCA were bold enough to publish specs on the AV and CK series of Tensei, "Yeah, they're NOT the Pro line, but here's WHAT THEY ARE AND DO". 

Fuji, 'Buy our Ventus!".  

 

'Ventus' Stock Shafts.png

 

... You have 4 posts on MGS and all of them complaining about made for shafts. Did you even look at the TaylorMade website? Listing all the benefits of the SIM Max driver there is zero mention of a Ventus shaft. They make no claims of any kind and only list the Ventus Blue 6 and Red 5 as the stock at the bottom of the page and include the specs, so anyone can see they are not the same as the aftermarket shaft. Anytime an OEM includes a true aftermarket shaft, they always mention it. 

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1 hour ago, IB_Golfin' said:

I think many are missing the point I'm making between stock and after-market shafts from the same OEM.  Being 'fit' for, or having the stock version work 'best' for is one thing, having a shaft with 99% of the same paint scheme and name, WITHOUT BEING ANYTHING NEAR THE AFTER MARKET VERSION IS ANOTHER. 

Please read the image attached, rec'd from a Fuji sales rep this morning.  

So when is MGS going to do a STOCK SHAFT review of these types of lines?  

 

 

 

 

It’s been stated before the mgs most wanted testing is done with stock shafts. 

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So when is MGS going to do a STOCK SHAFT review of these types of lines?  
 


MGS has done articles on the main site about this topic and how it is misleading to consumers. What kind of “review” do you want? Most likely the numbers between the shafts will be different; then what?
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1 hour ago, IB_Golfin' said:

I think many are missing the point I'm making between stock and after-market shafts from the same OEM.  Being 'fit' for, or having the stock version work 'best' for is one thing, having a shaft with 99% of the same paint scheme and name, WITHOUT BEING ANYTHING NEAR THE AFTER MARKET VERSION IS ANOTHER.

 

 

I have a scenario for you and if you would consider this a shaft that isn’t anything near aftermarket version.

After market shaft has a torque of 3.7 and weight of 67g listed on the website but it closer to 68 when weighed. The company changes one of the flags used to a different material and the number of layers used with that flag. The change causes the torque to go up to 4.2 and the weight to drop to 64g.

Based on using a different material and different flag layout of it and the spec changes would you consider that to be different than the aftermarket offering?

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1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

I have a scenario for you and if you would consider this a shaft that isn’t anything near aftermarket version.

After market shaft has a torque of 3.7 and weight of 67g listed on the website but it closer to 68 when weighed. The company changes one of the flags used to a different material and the number of layers used with that flag. The change causes the torque to go up to 4.2 and the weight to drop to 64g.

Based on using a different material and different flag layout of it and the spec changes would you consider that to be different than the aftermarket offering?

Straight from a Fuji rep discussing the Ventus TM Offering vs the Ventus w/Vencore: "They are different in every way.  Good shafts in their own right but no material nor internal technology that comes in the aftermarket version."

You decide if it's different.  I was simply bringing to light a considerable difference in 2 similarly labelled shafts TM is offering.  Enjoy whatever model you like and looks good. 

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1 hour ago, IB_Golfin' said:

Straight from a Fuji rep discussing the Ventus TM Offering vs the Ventus w/Vencore: "They are different in every way.  Good shafts in their own right but no material nor internal technology that comes in the aftermarket version."

You decide if it's different.  I was simply bringing to light a considerable difference in 2 similarly labelled shafts TM is offering.  Enjoy whatever model you like and looks good. 

I’m not nor is anyone else saying they are the same shaft. The specs are different as is the lack of velocore.

The post you quoted was posing a question to you based on a scenario it wasn’t regarding the ventus shaft with velocore and the one without.

So in the situation i posed would you consider the change I stated to be a different shaft than the aftermaket one?

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1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

I’m not nor is anyone else saying they are the same shaft. The specs are different as is the lack of velocore.

The post you quoted was posing a question to you based on a scenario it wasn’t regarding the ventus shaft with velocore and the one without.

So in the situation i posed would you consider the change I stated to be a different shaft than the aftermaket one?

FFS, yes!  You change the materials, it's not the same shaft. You didn't see MCA market the PRO model as a stock shaft or 'inadequately' leave off labeling to make it suspect of a PRO shaft., instead they labelled STOCK versions of the Tensei series as AV and CK, NO BORON in the tip, and different materials used.  HENCE, 3 different Tensei Blue shafts, of 3 different grades.  Or are all these the same to you??  Would you call the HZRDUS T800 the same shaft as the HZRDUS T1100?  Project X sure the hell won't.

Project X at least, according to a True Temper rep, loosens the tolerances of HZRDUS series 'stock' shafts vs the high QA and tolerances of the small batch versions.  So, yes, all Px HZRDUS Smoke Black shafts are the same, the stock version has slightly more variation than the 'tour' quality ones.  Being the same materials and profile, I can live with that and I would say what you see is what you get.  'Small Batch' does not mean TX or indicative of tour only,  it's simply a tighter toleranced shaft of the SAME material and design.  

The Ventus, IAW Fuji, is NOT the same material, and lacks the design entirely of the AM Ventus, it's NOT even remotely the same thing.  Call it a Ventus model B or something, but don't offer it as a mirror image of the AM shaft and simply leave off a little stamp at the tip that says 'Velocore'.  For all you know, the Ventus Black, Blue, Red 'made for TM', are nothing more than repainted Fuji Atmos shafts from last year, ya know, the NON 'Tour Spec' versions, which may very well be excess from the models the year earlier.  See the problem here, or just going to avoid the argument that there is one?    

I shouldn't have to look all over a shaft for an asterisk * that lets me know it's a knock-off of the real thing, especially when it's coming from the same high-profile OEMs.  

Edited by IB_Golfin'
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3 minutes ago, IB_Golfin' said:

FFS, yes!  You change the materials, it's not the same shaft. You didn't see MCA market the PRO model as a stock shaft or 'inadequately' leave off labeling to make it suspect of a PRO shaft., instead they labelled STOCK versions of the Tensei series as AV and CK, NO BORON in the tip, and different materials used.  HENCE, 3 different Tensei Blue shafts, of 3 different grades.  Or are all these the same to you??  Would you call the HZRDUS T800 the same shaft as the HZRDUS T1100?  Project X sure the hell won't.

Project X at least, according to a True Temper rep, loosens the tolerances of HZRDUS series 'stock' shafts vs the high QA and tolerances of the small batch versions.  So, yes, all Px HZRDUS Smoke Black shafts are the same, the stock version has slightly more variation than the 'tour' quality ones.  Being the same materials and profile, I can live with that and I would say what you see is what you get.

The Ventus, IAW Fuji, is NOT the same material, and lacks the design entirely of the AM Ventus, it's NOT even remotely the same thing.  Call it a Ventus model B or something, but don't offer it as a mirror image of the AM shaft and simply leave off a little stamp at the tip that says 'Velocore'.  For all you know, the Ventus Black, Blue, Red 'made for TM', are nothing more than repainted Fuji Atmos shafts from last year, ya know, the NON 'Tour Spec' versions, which may very well be excess from the models the year earlier.  See the problem here, or just going to avoid the argument that there is one?    

I shouldn't have to look all over a shaft for an asterisk * that lets me know it's a knock-off of the real thing, especially when it's coming from the same high-profile OEMs.  

It has happened for a while and it is going to continue to happen. Shaft companies need to move product and aftermarket shafts aren't enough. Educate yourself, get fit and find the shaft that works for you. It doesn't matter if your shaft is aftermarket, stock or generic, if it works for you then use it. 

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9 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

It has happened for a while and it is going to continue to happen. Shaft companies need to move product and aftermarket shafts aren't enough. Educate yourself, get fit and find the shaft that works for you. It doesn't matter if your shaft is aftermarket, stock or generic, if it works for you then use it. 

Your listed Ventus Black's, are they 'Velocore'?  I'm not wholly sure if the Epic Flash series had Ventus available as an option, correct me if I'm wrong though.  Did you 'upgrade' to  Ventus Velocore shafts, or just the Ventus shafts? 

You're paying $500+ for new equipment, it does matter if it's after-market, stock, or generic.  If golfers weren't paying for the name-sake every year there's very little reason why most couldn't play just as well, if not better, with driver heads that are 5-10yrs old.  Save some time and money and just order from Diamondtour.com  

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