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IB_Golfin'

Stock vs Premium shafts, from the same OEM

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11 minutes ago, IB_Golfin' said:

Your listed Ventus Black's, are they 'Velocore'?  I'm not wholly sure if the Epic Flash series had Ventus available as an option, correct me if I'm wrong though.  Did you 'upgrade' to  Ventus Velocore shafts, or just the Ventus shafts? 

You're paying $500+ for new equipment, it does matter if it's after-market, stock, or generic.  If golfers weren't paying for the name-sake every year there's very little reason why most couldn't play just as well, if not better, with driver heads that are 5-10yrs old.  Save some time and money and just order from Diamondtour.com  

Mine has Velocore.

And no it doesn't matter what club is in your bag, if it works use it. Simple as that. If diamondtour works for you then great use it. 

 

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49 minutes ago, IB_Golfin' said:

FFS, yes!  You change the materials, it's not the same shaft. You didn't see MCA market the PRO model as a stock shaft or 'inadequately' leave off labeling to make it suspect of a PRO shaft., instead they labelled STOCK versions of the Tensei series as AV and CK, NO BORON in the tip, and different materials used.  HENCE, 3 different Tensei Blue shafts, of 3 different grades.  Or are all these the same to you??  Would you call the HZRDUS T800 the same shaft as the HZRDUS T1100?  Project X sure the hell won't.

Project X at least, according to a True Temper rep, loosens the tolerances of HZRDUS series 'stock' shafts vs the high QA and tolerances of the small batch versions.  So, yes, all Px HZRDUS Smoke Black shafts are the same, the stock version has slightly more variation than the 'tour' quality ones.  Being the same materials and profile, I can live with that and I would say what you see is what you get.  'Small Batch' does not mean TX or indicative of tour only,  it's simply a tighter toleranced shaft of the SAME material and design.  

The Ventus, IAW Fuji, is NOT the same material, and lacks the design entirely of the AM Ventus, it's NOT even remotely the same thing.  Call it a Ventus model B or something, but don't offer it as a mirror image of the AM shaft and simply leave off a little stamp at the tip that says 'Velocore'.  For all you know, the Ventus Black, Blue, Red 'made for TM', are nothing more than repainted Fuji Atmos shafts from last year, ya know, the NON 'Tour Spec' versions, which may very well be excess from the models the year earlier.  See the problem here, or just going to avoid the argument that there is one?    

I shouldn't have to look all over a shaft for an asterisk * that lets me know it's a knock-off of the real thing, especially when it's coming from the same high-profile OEMs.  

I do consider the shafts you mentioned to be different just like I know the diamana what’s that have been in titleist woods to not be the same as the aftermarket ones. Also the club companies will list the specs of the shafts they are offering.

you don’t have to look all over to see if a shaft is the aftermaket version or not. Many times there isn’t an aftermarket version of a shaft. The ventus is a perfect example on tm website. Go into customize this club when you choose the shaft you will see the specs, you can either compare them to the shaft companies website or choose the ventus velocore on Tm site and see the specs.

As for my scenario I would also agree that the change in materials and or number of flags used would be different than the aftermarket one. Would you expect performance to vary between the aftermarket shaft listed and the one that was modified? If so what do you think would change and why?

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10 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Would you expect performance to vary between the aftermarket shaft listed and the one that was modified? If so what do you think would change and why?

Ironically the culprit is also the teacher.  Damned shame really, but gotta sell those unused overstocked prior model shafts somehow...  

https://mygolfspy.com/shaft-university-design-101-part-1/  

https://mygolfspy.com/shaft-university-design-101-part-ii/

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11 minutes ago, IB_Golfin' said:

Ironically the culprit is also the teacher.  Damned shame really, but gotta sell those unused overstocked prior model shafts somehow...  

https://mygolfspy.com/shaft-university-design-101-part-1/  

https://mygolfspy.com/shaft-university-design-101-part-ii/

Seriously what is your gripe? Is it that mgs isn’t given you data on a specific shaft or that fujikura has two different shafts with the same name which isn’t anything new?

but back to my post that you didn’t answer? Do you think the modified shaft would play/perform differently than the aftermarket one and if how and why?

edit: I’m trying to have a conversation with you about shafts, shaft design and performance but you keep goin to some form of complaint.

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15 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Seriously what is your gripe? Is it that mgs isn’t given you data on a specific shaft or that fujikura has two different shafts with the same name which isn’t anything new?

but back to my post that you didn’t answer? Do you think the modified shaft would play/perform differently than the aftermarket one and if how and why?

edit: I’m trying to have a conversation with you about shafts, shaft design and performance but you keep goin to some form of complaint.

Ian Fraser said the non - velocore shaft is completely different. Not as stiff a tip and different bend profile. He's big on fujikura but was really disappointed fuji watered down the Ventus name with the TMAG offering 

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26 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Seriously what is your gripe? Is it that mgs isn’t given you data on a specific shaft or that fujikura has two different shafts with the same name which isn’t anything new?

but back to my post that you didn’t answer? Do you think the modified shaft would play/perform differently than the aftermarket one and if how and why?

edit: I’m trying to have a conversation with you about shafts, shaft design and performance but you keep goin to some form of complaint.

I'll tell you what, go ahead and contact Chris Nickel here at the bottom of his review and ask him the same mundane questions. He at least gets paid for it.  https://mygolfspy.com/taylormade-sim-driver-review/

"Notice the asterisks on both Ventus shafts? I added them. While manufacturers like to use words like co-engineered, golfers are more familiar with made for, so let’s go with that. It’s exactly what we’re talking about there. This isn’t a real-deal Ventus (that one’s for you, JB). Unlike the aftermarket version, the TaylorMade version lacks full-length Pitch 70 fiber in the bias layer. It lacks VeloCore (Ventus’ signature technology) and will play softer in the tip section because of it.

That may not be a bad thing for the middle of the bell curve off-the-rack buyer, but guys, nearly 100% of the Ventus story revolved around VeloCore With no VeloCore, what you’re left with is a golf shaft that’s decidedly not a Ventus.  As some of the traditional shenanigans have been exposed, manufactures have found new and creative ways to transform premium aftermarket shaft offerings into lower-cost OEM stock products. I suppose you can argue there’s an art to it, but when you consider that except for the small VeloCore logo near the tip, the cosmetics of the Ventus* and aftermarket Ventus shafts are otherwise identical, it’s hard to argue that there isn’t a conscious effort to deceive golfers here.

The stock shaft game involves a good bit of back and forth between the club OEM and the shaft guys, and there are legitimate financial constraints in play, so rather than assign blame, I’ll just politely ask that everyone stop playing these kinds of games with golfers.

Be Better."

P.S.: I'm posting references that further explain the questions you're expecting me to answer.  If the shafts make no difference to you, AM or MF, than so be it.  I side with Chris's review 100%.  It baffles me that one would argue this point, especially in the MGS forum.      

Edited by IB_Golfin'

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10 minutes ago, jlukes said:

Ian Fraser said the non - velocore shaft is completely different. Not as stiff a tip and different bend profile. He's big on fujikura but was really disappointed fuji watered down the Ventus name with the TMAG offering 

No doubting that. I think everyone agrees that is the case just as other shafts from multiple shaft companies have been over the years.

3 minutes ago, IB_Golfin' said:

I'll tell you what, go ahead and contact Chris Nickel here at the bottom of his review and ask him the same mundane questions. He at least gets paid for it.  https://mygolfspy.com/taylormade-sim-driver-review/

"Notice the asterisks on both Ventus shafts? I added them. While manufacturers like to use words like co-engineered, golfers are more familiar with made for, so let’s go with that. It’s exactly what we’re talking about there. This isn’t a real-deal Ventus (that one’s for you, JB). Unlike the aftermarket version, the TaylorMade version lacks full-length Pitch 70 fiber in the bias layer. It lacks VeloCore (Ventus’ signature technology) and will play softer in the tip section because of it.

That may not be a bad thing for the middle of the bell curve off-the-rack buyer, but guys, nearly 100% of the Ventus story revolved around VeloCore With no VeloCore, what you’re left with is a golf shaft that’s decidedly not a Ventus.  As some of the traditional shenanigans have been exposed, manufactures have found new and creative ways to transform premium aftermarket shaft offerings into lower-cost OEM stock products. I suppose you can argue there’s an art to it, but when you consider that except for the small VeloCore logo near the tip, the cosmetics of the Ventus* and aftermarket Ventus shafts are otherwise identical, it’s hard to argue that there isn’t a conscious effort to deceive golfers here.

The stock shaft game involves a good bit of back and forth between the club OEM and the shaft guys, and there are legitimate financial constraints in play, so rather than assign blame, I’ll just politely ask that everyone stop playing these kinds of games with golfers.

Be Better."

 

Apparently you don’t want to have a conversation about shafts in general and how they potentially could perform but rather want o harp on the fujikura and/or the ventus despite me telling you my scenario wasn’t about the ventus or fujikura.  
 

The articles you have posted from mgs about made for, the ones from shaft university have some really good information in them and are very good resources for learning.

So many get hung up on real deal vs aftermarket, the px handcrafted vs non handcrafted, small batch vs non small batch. I have played both the original hazrdus yellow handcrafted as well as the non handcrafted and the numbers on launch monitor and on course performance were near identical despite the differences on materials and qc.

ive also played the real deal blueboard and whiteboard shafts as well as their made for. There were some slight differences in performance but neither were bad for my swing.

 

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18 minutes ago, jlukes said:

Ian Fraser said the non - velocore shaft is completely different. Not as stiff a tip and different bend profile. He's big on fujikura but was really disappointed fuji watered down the Ventus name with the TMAG offering 

452314125_VentusStockShafts.thumb.png.0485f07198d26ab7704e5c90e91623e1.png

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3 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

So many get hung up on real deal vs aftermarket, the px handcrafted vs non handcrafted, small batch vs non small batch. I have played both the original hazrdus yellow handcrafted as well as the non handcrafted and the numbers on launch monitor and on course performance were near identical despite the differences on materials and qc

From True Temper (Project X)  Rep: "We do not give out CPM information but the 6.0 will be our stiff and the 6.5 our xtra stiff so it will be one flex and about 10 CPM difference. The TM version and our Small Batch version are the same materials and specs, just our Small Batch version is made with tighter QA and to a tighter spec". 

"Project X maintains that its OEM offerings are identical to the namesake Small Batch versions sold through premium fitters. The only difference is that Small Batch shafts are manufactured to tighter tolerances".

Unless you're Tiger you're likely not going to feel a difference between the Hand-Crafted / Small Batch vs Stock Project X shafts.  I highly doubt QC at Px is an issue on even their worst line, let alone their marque products.  

The Aldila stock shaft on the Maverick, again courtesy of Chris's review: "Typically, when you see a $350 shaft in a $500 driver it’s a red flag. According to Callaway, it’s not a made for shaft, and Aldila confirms the shaft (Aldila Rogue White 130 M.S.I. (60/70g) is not exclusive to Callaway. It’s available in the aftermarket, one was in play at the Sony last week (Aldila hopes it will get more tour play), and there’s no reason why it couldn’t find its way into other OEM lineups.  There’s an inherent risk with putting a premium shaft in an OEM lineup, but Aldila is willing to roll the dice as it works to reestablish itself both in the US and overseas (where the brand’s footprint is minimal)."

Finally, don't care what your numbers are or how either felt to you.  It's a matter of whether the design and sale of 'non-velacore' Ventus shafts is somehow a product of known deception and poor ethics.  Other companies apparently get it, and I have more respect for them and their products.  

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1 minute ago, IB_Golfin' said:

From True Temper (Project X)  Rep: "We do not give out CPM information but the 6.0 will be our stiff and the 6.5 our xtra stiff so it will be one flex and about 10 CPM difference. The TM version and our Small Batch version are the same materials and specs, just our Small Batch version is made with tighter QA and to a tighter spec". 

"Project X maintains that its OEM offerings are identical to the namesake Small Batch versions sold through premium fitters. The only difference is that Small Batch shafts are manufactured to tighter tolerances".

Unless you're Tiger you're likely not going to feel a difference between the Hand-Crafted / Small Batch vs Stock Project X shafts.  I highly doubt QC at Px is an issue on even their worst line, let alone their marque products.  

The Aldila stock shaft on the Maverick, again courtesy of Chris's review: "Typically, when you see a $350 shaft in a $500 driver it’s a red flag. According to Callaway, it’s not a made for shaft, and Aldila confirms the shaft (Aldila Rogue White 130 M.S.I. (60/70g) is not exclusive to Callaway. It’s available in the aftermarket, one was in play at the Sony last week (Aldila hopes it will get more tour play), and there’s no reason why it couldn’t find its way into other OEM lineups.  There’s an inherent risk with putting a premium shaft in an OEM lineup, but Aldila is willing to roll the dice as it works to reestablish itself both in the US and overseas (where the brand’s footprint is minimal)."

Finally, don't care what your numbers are or how either felt to you.  It's a matter of whether the design and sale of 'non-velacore' Ventus shafts is somehow a product of known deception and poor ethics.  Other companies apparently get it, and I have more respect for them and their products.  

I don’t think fujikura is trying to deceive anyone and this isn’t the first shaft they have made for TaylorMade with the same name. Granted the previous one had a different paint job. The vast majority average golfers aren’t  going to know that there is a made for shaft and an after market shaft. That group is split up between those who aren’t getting fitted and will buy a driver based on the loft on the head and the flex of the shaft. They won’t know the difference between a smoke green, smoke black, ventus blue, fujikura pro, speeder and so on. Then there’s the group that will go get fit and not know anything about shafts and will go with either what the fitter is recommending or based on the numbers they see on the launch monitor. When you see a commercial for a club do they say what shaft is in the club? Not usually it’s more on the name of the driver and the marketing of what it is supposed to do. 

The ones on forums tend to be more educated and understand that there are made for shafts and real deal. This same group can usually determine which is which. This group also tends to get fit and are deep into the numbers on the monitor, the feel, ball flight and so on. They do research. If they blind buy it usually based off past experiences and feedback on the forums. Even this group is split between spending money on aftermarket shafts or playing what’s offered at no upcharge.

i could have told you that about px and have said that samething in other threads. I have actually been to px headquarters and spent 2 days with their design team and the small crew that rolled the handcrafted shafts when they were still made in San Diego. I was able to see the whole process for how a shaft is made including the intricate formulas used for creating a shaft design and how changing the material used, how it affects the shaft EI profile, weight, flex, torque, etc, and have actually rolled a shaft while there and played that shaft for the better part of a year. It performed equal to the one that was rolled by the px team. It also happens to be the shaft I was talking about in my scenario. 
 

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30 minutes ago, IB_Golfin' said:

It's a matter of whether the design and sale of 'non-velacore' Ventus shafts is somehow a product of known deception and poor ethics.  Other companies apparently get it, and I have more respect for them and their products.  

Okay,  Fujikura and TaylorMade are bad and are deceiving customers and have poor ethics.  There have been articles that indicate that manufacturers have done this for a while.  Pretty much every response has indicated that the shafts are different.  What kind of response are you trying to get in this thread?  

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Maybe I haven’t looked close enough but don’t the MCA Tensei CK and CK Pro shafts look almost identical except for the boron tip writing near the tip of the shaft? I did read that the carbon weave extends higher up the shaft but can that be seen without removing the grip?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

 

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14 minutes ago, blackngold_blood said:

Maybe I haven’t looked close enough but don’t the MCA Tensei CK and CK Pro shafts look almost identical except for the boron tip writing near the tip of the shaft? I did read that the carbon weave extends higher up the shaft but can that be seen without removing the grip?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

 

Yes, and no. But MCA explains all the differences on their site here. https://www.mca-golf.com/brands/tensei™

 There’s no guessing games as to the make and properties of those three lines. 

 

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Yes, and no. But MCA explains all the differences on their site here. https://www.mca-golf.com/brands/tensei
 There’s no guessing games as to the make and properties of those three lines. 
 

Ok I get that MCA lists all three on the website but where do you see them listing how the shafts LOOK different?


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2 hours ago, cnosil said:

Okay,  Fujikura and TaylorMade are bad and are deceiving customers and have poor ethics.  There have been articles that indicate that manufacturers have done this for a while.  Pretty much every response has indicated that the shafts are different.  What kind of response are you trying to get in this thread?  

Last time... Expectations from posting this, nothing. FYSA. If MGS pursued t further and did a comparative research story on the 2 ventus shafts, great. If not, 🤷‍♂️. I won’t game either. 

 

As a data scientist and analyst my major peeve is being presented something that is purposely skewed or misrepresented. Believe it or not, people lie with data and advertisements all the time. Shocker. If a story like these ventus shafts doesn’t bother you, so be it. If you’re a ‘use what fits you’, great. If you’re a ‘that’s how it’s always been’, you logic is dangerous from a consumer standpoint and paves the way for s***** busiess practices from OEMs the rest of us count on. Me, I hate falsifications and try to point out and call out irregularities as I see them. The Callaway golf ball story was a marvelous find for MGS, I applaud that.  

Fuji and TM co-engineered (hopefully) a shaft but slapped the high profile Ventus name on it, despite it NOT having the vencore interior or having any of the Ventus design or materials. It closely resembles the after-market model and withot a doubt was meant to make consumers believe they’re buying a ‘near Ventus’ shaft. Even as Fuji has acknowledged, these two shafts are not even closely similar. While this may not upset any of you, accepting it as a norm does more damage than good. Aldila, Px, MCA all at least represent their products and stocks options as either different lines or lesser tolerances. Not entirely different versions with identical paint schemes as the after-market version. This, to me, is a deceptive sham that I hate seeing in my golf products. There’s nothing wrong in using that stock option, however, it should’ve been promoted as a different line and advertised accordingly. The hope here, is golfers don’t care and the Ventus name gets widespread visibility.  The precedant that has already been set is this is a usual and acceptable practice. I hope to see that reversed. The more that know this shaft is an illegitimate Ventus, the better it is for the companies that want a respectable image. Aldila’s offering a premium Rogue 130, after-market, shaft as the Maverick stock option. Px claims no material differences in their HZRDUS stock options. MCA list the differences between their models dispelling any confusion as to what is what.  As of right now, the materials and profile of the TM ventus is relatively unknown, as it lacks both the materials and technology as the Ventus line. Again, if it works for you or got fitted for you, great. If you picked it off tbe rack and thought this is a great shaft cause you read the shaft university thread on it, or caught a few advertisements, you were sold an illegitimate item that simple knowledge through sites like this could have corrected. 

I expect more from the vendors, even as a recreational golfer. I hope most of you do too.

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As stated earlier the larger golfing public has no knowledge about what shafts are after market, what shaft is made for or even what the shaft designs are from low launch low spin to high/high. These golfer also don’t pay attention to iron what’s, buy off the rack base on some combo of brand, loft, looks, golf digest hot list. 
 

The educated golfer knows that there are differences in made for and real deal and can most can tell the difference by paint scheme, logo/identifiers used, and looking at the specs. They tend to get fit and play what works. They have more knowledge and some don’t want stock regardless of its deal deal or not they are going to re-tip a current aftermarket shaft or buy one of the aftermarket shafts. Others are going to choose based on fitting or reviews from others.

As for comparing shafts why would mgs do it specifically for the ventus? Should they do it for each flex in each color? Should they do it for Diamana shafts, the speeder shafts, Tensei ck and pro shafts?

the easiest way to see if there is a difference is to go hit them side by side and see what works for you.

With all that said what if TM told Fujikura they wanted a shaft that had a profile of a,b,c and we want to cal it ventus and will give you X dollars for he name Ventus. Now you have two shafts with the same name and different profiles and since TM owns the name and whatever else Fujikura doesn’t have any of the information on their site for it as a result

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Last time... Expectations from posting this, nothing. FYSA. If MGS pursued t further and did a comparative research story on the 2 ventus shafts, great. If not, . I won’t game either. 

 

As a data scientist and analyst my major peeve is being presented something that is purposely skewed or misrepresented. Believe it or not, people lie with data and advertisements all the time. Shocker. If a story like these ventus shafts doesn’t bother you, so be it. If you’re a ‘use what fits you’, great. If you’re a ‘that’s how it’s always been’, you logic is dangerous from a consumer standpoint and paves the way for s***** busiess practices from OEMs the rest of us count on. Me, I hate falsifications and try to point out and call out irregularities as I see them. The Callaway golf ball story was a marvelous find for MGS, I applaud that.  

Fuji and TM co-engineered (hopefully) a shaft but slapped the high profile Ventus name on it, despite it NOT having the vencore interior or having any of the Ventus design or materials. It closely resembles the after-market model and withot a doubt was meant to make consumers believe they’re buying a ‘near Ventus’ shaft. Even as Fuji has acknowledged, these two shafts are not even closely similar. While this may not upset any of you, accepting it as a norm does more damage than good. Aldila, Px, MCA all at least represent their products and stocks options as either different lines or lesser tolerances. Not entirely different versions with identical paint schemes as the after-market version. This, to me, is a deceptive sham that I hate seeing in my golf products. There’s nothing wrong in using that stock option, however, it should’ve been promoted as a different line and advertised accordingly. The hope here, is golfers don’t care and the Ventus name gets widespread visibility.  The precedant that has already been set is this is a usual and acceptable practice. I hope to see that reversed. The more that know this shaft is an illegitimate Ventus, the better it is for the companies that want a respectable image. Aldila’s offering a premium Rogue 130, after-market, shaft as the Maverick stock option. Px claims no material differences in their HZRDUS stock options. MCA list the differences between their models dispelling any confusion as to what is what.  As of right now, the materials and profile of the TM ventus is relatively unknown, as it lacks both the materials and technology as the Ventus line. Again, if it works for you or got fitted for you, great. If you picked it off tbe rack and thought this is a great shaft cause you read the shaft university thread on it, or caught a few advertisements, you were sold an illegitimate item that simple knowledge through sites like this could have corrected. 

I expect more from the vendors, even as a recreational golfer. I hope most of you do too.

I agree with your post, this is how marketing and the consumer world work. Best answer: as a consumer educate yourself. You asked fujikura and they gave you the straight answer. Most golfers don’t care and just pick up off the shaft clubs. Glad you want to know more. If it seems like too good if a deal it probably is.

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1 hour ago, cnosil said:

I agree with your post, this is how marketing and the consumer world work. Best answer: as a consumer educate yourself. Most golfers don’t care and just pick up off the shaft clubs. 

 

... cnosil, I'll take it a step farther. The vast majority of average golfers have no idea what shaft is in their driver and as you stated really don't care. I play as a single and have been paired up with 1000's of strangers and it is extremely rare that any of them posses any equipment knowledge, even really good players. The flip side is most forum golfers, even though a very small percentage of buyers, know many made for shafts have different profiles and sometimes even different materials than the aftermarket shaft. Very few are confused by the TM Ventus thinking it is the same as he aftermarket Ventus since just about every new driver with an aftermarket named shaft has multiple threads on ALL golf forums like "Is the Ventus a real deal shaft?" and are directed to look at the Fuji site and compare specs, if they haven't already. 

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Was on TMs website earlier and they are only offering with non velocore the blue 6 and red 5 shafts. In the velocore models they are offering the blue and black 6 and 7 bit no red. Checked TGW to see if it was an option there and no red with velocore.

In case anyone is interested in the specs here is what TM has for the blue with and without velocore and the red

 

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CADA70F8-85C2-4D10-AF5A-F4781DE14401.jpeg

2D0AB142-6DBB-48EF-B61A-F41556FE8C96.jpeg

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