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USGA and R&A say distance needs to be reigned back in


Smellis745

USGA/R&A Distance Report  

101 members have voted

  1. 1. Which of these has made the biggest contribution to distance gains on Tour in the last 30 years?

    • Ball technology
      33
    • Driver tech/fitting
      20
    • Fitness
      33
    • Launch monitor optimization
      4
    • Course conditions
      11
  2. 2. Is too much distance a problem on the Tour?

    • Yes
      45
    • No
      56
  3. 3. Is too much distance a problem for amateurs?

    • Yes
      6
    • No
      95
  4. 4. Which best represents your solution to the distance issue?

    • There's no issue. Keep things the way they are.
      19
    • Bifurcate: roll back the balls/clubs for the Tour, but leave the amateur equipment alone
      13
    • Change course conditions on Tour: taller grass, narrower fairways, etc.
      65
    • Roll back balls/clubs for everyone
      4
  5. 5. If the USGA rolls back the ball for everyone, would you switch to the new ball?

    • Yes
      38
    • No
      63


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1 hour ago, MaxEntropy said:

I don't necessarily disagree with you, especially since golfers are a different breed, but to continue the racing analogy, Pirelli clearly sees value in supplying tires to F1, which has to mean it effects their sales positively. Those tires are most certainly not available to the weekend warriors who like to take their sports cars to track days (besides, who would want to put 13" wheels on their Porsche?), but I'm willing to bet there are people buying Pirelli's because of their involvement in F1.

Personally, I see no need for bifurcation in golf until you hit the professional ranks. How often do amateur baseball players own or practice with wooden bats prior to getting drafted? I honestly don't know, but I would be surprised if it happened too often just because the skill required to hit a baseball is not sufficiently changed by the bat they are using.

I just think racing and golf are two different animals.  So far, we have always played under the same rules, both playing rules and equipment rules, all golfers, hacker to Tiger.  This is one of very few sports where that is the case.  To change that is to potentially change the effectiveness of advertising.  Potential is the issue, neither the sponsors (manufacturers) nor the sponsees (players and tours) want to find out what actually happens.  

If we DO think about bifurcating at the pro level, there are still lines to be drawn.  Are club pros using the limited equipment in local PGA events?  The PGA of America's Club Pro Championship is logical.  How about local Pro-Ams, pros with limited balls, the rest of their group with "normal" stuff?  For State Open tournaments, are all entrants using it, including amateurs who qualify?  US Open?  The Masters, including the amateurs who qualify?  There's just not a single clean dividing line.  This isn't to say it can't be done, but its complicated.

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9 hours ago, Smellis745 said:

The problem is still that the long guys will be long and short guys will be short.  You've either got speed or you don't. 

I don't know that this is a problem that the governing bodies are trying to solve.  Nothing I've read says that they want everyone hitting it the same distance (or even reducing the spread).  What I'm reading says that they are worried about the distance that the longest hitters are hitting the ball.  Distance is going to be rewarded, whether a long drive is 330 or 290.

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9 hours ago, HardcoreLooper said:

I don't know that this is a problem that the governing bodies are trying to solve.  Nothing I've read says that they want everyone hitting it the same distance (or even reducing the spread).  What I'm reading says that they are worried about the distance that the longest hitters are hitting the ball.  Distance is going to be rewarded, whether a long drive is 330 or 290.

Good point.

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10 hours ago, HardcoreLooper said:

I don't know that this is a problem that the governing bodies are trying to solve.  Nothing I've read says that they want everyone hitting it the same distance (or even reducing the spread).  What I'm reading says that they are worried about the distance that the longest hitters are hitting the ball.  Distance is going to be rewarded, whether a long drive is 330 or 290.

For the most part I agree they aren’t trying to make sure everyone hits it the same. It’s more of back to tiger proofing current courses and future ones.  


 

 

 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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I have no issue if they choose to change the ball for professional golf. I know bifurcation is a hated word among many golfers, but I don't care what the tour guys are playing. Let them play the special tour balls that go shorter, and who cares. Reducing the flight of every golf ball is ridiculous. I think that would honestly lead to more manufacturers creating "non-conforming" golf balls, especially at independent DTC manufacturers who have no skin in the game with the tour. I would be happy to play something non-conforming if that was the case, I am never going to turn pro.

The biggest problem with this solution is how long would it take to implement? It wouldn't happen a week after it was announced. It would take months/years of R&D to make sure everything else is the same and you were getting the effect you wanted. You can't test with tour players during events, it would have to be lab and range testing. What's the timeline? 2-3 years for a solution? 

Growing the grass is an easier solution that can be applied in the meantime to see what the effect is. Then maybe you don't need the rolled back ball at all. Or you still use it or whatever. But then you have options. Putting all your option in one bag seems to be very poor planning.  

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Irons- Callaway Steelhead XR (3-PW)

Wedges- Callaway MD3 (50,54,58)

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On 2/17/2020 at 3:10 PM, MaxEntropy said:

Personally, I see no need for bifurcation in golf until you hit the professional ranks. How often do amateur baseball players own or practice with wooden bats prior to getting drafted? I honestly don't know, but I would be surprised if it happened too often just because the skill required to hit a baseball is not sufficiently changed by the bat they are using.

Going back to the golden days a decade ago---most of the guys I played ball with that didn't have their eyes set on playing professionally owned and took BP with wooden bats (same mantra of practicing with blades vs GI irons).  Others that were genuine prospects often practiced or even played games with wooden bats--even while the rest of us mortals were swinging and competing with aluminum/composite bats.  The underlying skill required to swing wood vs aluminum isn't great, but there is enough of a difference to merit wooden bat leagues for higher level college/amateurs during the summer that helps provide separation at those higher levels.

I don't think the baseball/golf bifurcation holds much merit.  Though some similarities exist, they are two completely different games.

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It was great to see a major OEM take a stand against this report. Admittedly though, I am more than a tad surprised that it was Titleist that took the stand first. Hopefully more will follow soon.



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5 hours ago, FrogginBullfish said:

It was great to see a major OEM take a stand against this report. Admittedly though, I am more than a tad surprised that it was Titleist that took the stand first. Hopefully more will follow soon.
 

Titleist did nothing more than release a statement that tries to protect its financial interests.  They also engage in a little bit of scare tactics to get people on their side.:

"We believe the conclusions drawn in this report undervalue the skill and athleticism of the game's very best players and focus far too much on the top of the men's professional game and project this on golf and golfers as a whole,"

Its absolutely fair to disagree on value judgements, but the underlined part pretty much disregards what the conclusions of the USGA/R&A say,:

" It is not currently intended to consider revising the overall specifications in a way that would produce substantial reductions in hitting distances at all levels of the game."

Golf and golfers as a whole are not going to be impacted, unless you specifically believe that the USGA/R&A are lying about their intentions.  

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5 hours ago, FrogginBullfish said:

It was great to see a major OEM take a stand against this report. Admittedly though, I am more than a tad surprised that it was Titleist that took the stand first. Hopefully more will follow soon.



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Not at all surprising given that the most likely rollback target would be the ball so as the market share leader they have the most to lose.

Bridgestone who spoke out in favor a couple of years ago is number 4 in market share and apparently already had a head start given that they produced new limited flight balls for a USGA pilot a few years ago. They actually have a financial incentive for a market reset to occur.

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13 minutes ago, storm319 said:

Not at all surprising given that the most likely rollback target would be the ball so as the market share leader they have the most to lose.

Bridgestone who spoke out in favor a couple of years ago is number 4 in market share and apparently already had a head start given that they produced new limited flight balls for a USGA pilot a few years ago. They actually have a financial incentive for a market reset to occur.

It’s not just titleist that has a lot to lose. Callaway is investing $50 million to renovate their ball plant with new equipment, new process, plus the money and effort into the design of the new csx. They aren’t going to want to have to spend time and money to have to make a new ball that’s compliant for the less than 1% of golfers in the world
 

 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

It’s not just titleist that has a lot to lose. Callaway is investing $50 million to renovate their ball plant with new equipment, new process, plus the money and effort into the design of the new csx. They aren’t going to want to have to spend time and money to have to make a new ball that’s compliant for the less than 1% of golfers in the world

I do wonder if the costs to develop and manufacture a "go short" ball would keep some of the smaller ball companies out of the "elite ball" marketplace.  We know that most elite players don't actually pay for golf balls, so I'd anticipate that most of the costs associated with the "short" ball would end up being spread out over all of the people who DO pay for their own balls, meaning you and me.  Titleist could do that and we'd never notice much difference, bot others might not want to risk losing market share due to price increases. I'll still be really surprised if the various stakeholders could agree on any type of equipment bifurcation, whether its voluntary (via Local Rule) or mandatory somehow.

:titleist-small: Irons Titleist T200, AMT Red stiff

:callaway-small:Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:mizuno-small: T22 54 and 58 wedges

:mizuno-small: 7-wood

:Sub70: 5-wood

 B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

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1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

I do wonder if the costs to develop and manufacture a "go short" ball would keep some of the smaller ball companies out of the "elite ball" marketplace.  We know that most elite players don't actually pay for golf balls, so I'd anticipate that most of the costs associated with the "short" ball would end up being spread out over all of the people who DO pay for their own balls, meaning you and me.  Titleist could do that and we'd never notice much difference, bot others might not want to risk losing market share due to price increases. I'll still be really surprised if the various stakeholders could agree on any type of equipment bifurcation, whether its voluntary (via Local Rule) or mandatory somehow.

The cost would definitely be spread down to the consumer from the big brands that have their own facilities. It would be interesting to see how the dtc brands or brands that only own part of the process like a TM would handle it. 
 

I saw somewhere the price of the new csx will be $47.99 now putting it at the same as the prov/avx lines, a few dollars above TM and Bridgestone. One of the things Ive seen from across Facebook and forums was they liked the cost of the z star line, calllaway or Bridgestone balls because they were cheaper than titleist (although for me $3-5 isn’t a deal breaker).

2020 is going to be an interesting year to watch equipment and ball sales 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

I do wonder if the costs to develop and manufacture a "go short" ball would keep some of the smaller ball companies out of the "elite ball" marketplace.  We know that most elite players don't actually pay for golf balls, so I'd anticipate that most of the costs associated with the "short" ball would end up being spread out over all of the people who DO pay for their own balls, meaning you and me.  Titleist could do that and we'd never notice much difference, bot others might not want to risk losing market share due to price increases. I'll still be really surprised if the various stakeholders could agree on any type of equipment bifurcation, whether its voluntary (via Local Rule) or mandatory somehow.

I agree it would push them out of this market, but honestly I don't see it affecting their bottom line much as the elite don't generally play their balls anyway. And yes if they do bifurcate the John Q Public will pay for all the additional R & D.

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4 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I do wonder if the costs to develop and manufacture a "go short" ball would keep some of the smaller ball companies out of the "elite ball" marketplace.  We know that most elite players don't actually pay for golf balls, so I'd anticipate that most of the costs associated with the "short" ball would end up being spread out over all of the people who DO pay for their own balls, meaning you and me.  Titleist could do that and we'd never notice much difference, bot others might not want to risk losing market share due to price increases. I'll still be really surprised if the various stakeholders could agree on any type of equipment bifurcation, whether its voluntary (via Local Rule) or mandatory somehow.

Keep in mind that the most of the smaller ball marketing companies outsource R&D and production to 3 asian factories. I am sure those factories will be able to adapt on a similar time frame as the big 5 (considering that these factories also produce some for 2 of the big 5). 

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Dean dropping knowledge bombs...

 

What's in the bag:
Driver - :cobra-small: F8 - Aldila NV Blue 60 ( S )
3 Wood (13.5*) - :titleist-small: 980F 
4 Wood (18*) - :cobra-small: F8 - Aldila NV Blue 60 ( S )
3 Hybrid (19*) - :taylormade-small: RBZ
4i - PW - :wilson_staff_small: D7 Forged - Recoil 760 ( S )
52* - :cleveland-small: CBX
58* - :cleveland-small: CBX Full Face 2
Putter - :ping-small: Craz-e
Bag - :1590477705_SunMountain: 2.5 (Blue)
Ball -  :titleist-small: AVX
Instagram - @hardcorelooper
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