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Smellis745

USGA and R&A say distance needs to be reigned back in

USGA/R&A Distance Report  

100 members have voted

  1. 1. Which of these has made the biggest contribution to distance gains on Tour in the last 30 years?

    • Ball technology
      32
    • Driver tech/fitting
      20
    • Fitness
      33
    • Launch monitor optimization
      4
    • Course conditions
      11
  2. 2. Is too much distance a problem on the Tour?

    • Yes
      44
    • No
      56
  3. 3. Is too much distance a problem for amateurs?

    • Yes
      6
    • No
      94
  4. 4. Which best represents your solution to the distance issue?

    • There's no issue. Keep things the way they are.
      19
    • Bifurcate: roll back the balls/clubs for the Tour, but leave the amateur equipment alone
      12
    • Change course conditions on Tour: taller grass, narrower fairways, etc.
      65
    • Roll back balls/clubs for everyone
      4
  5. 5. If the USGA rolls back the ball for everyone, would you switch to the new ball?

    • Yes
      38
    • No
      62


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9 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Lastly, there is nothing they can do about "juiced players".  Take DeChambeau for example; he's just recently bulked up and gained significant hitting length. 

Far more players are athletic and fit now.  20 years ago, Tiger was basically the only one.  But testing equipment is still a variable that should be eliminated from the equation before we go rolling anything back.

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They need to remember the reason we watch professional athletes, it's for entertainment.  I don't know about you guys, but the entertainment side of it to me is wondering how in the world professional athletes hit the shots that they do.  Instead of taking a look at distance lets look at scoring averages.  If those aren't dropping by significant margins, which they don't seem to be, then I don't believe there is a problem.  Anyone want to go back to playing a featherie?

 

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1 hour ago, sixcat said:

Maybe the driver alone doesn't but nobody is testing the balls these guys put into play!

Do you think a golf ball company is going to spend money on component and have a process to make balls that aren’t conforming  and make a small batch of conforming balls to send to the usga for testing all while possible running the risk of damaging their reputation?

Titleist has ~15% of pros playing non retail ball. It doesn’t even make sense to make that small amount of their already small amount of tour balls non conforming 

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2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

I know right. Not sure what I was thinking applying that to the ruling bodies and tour 😂

2 things that do not apply to the PGA Tour or the USGA--- Common Sense and the old adage KISS as in keep it simple stupid. 

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Too much distance isn't a factor for the recreational golfer that makes up about 99% of golfers. None of the guys that play in the gangsomes at my club say they hit it too far. It almost seems the USGA is trying to make golf more exclusive rather than inclusive. It's like they think that by making golf harder and less fun, that they will make it a better game. Kind of hard to understand that kind of thinking.

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I say limit driver clubhead size to 200cc, limit shaft length to 43.5" and call it a day.  That would force the pros into going back to relying on feel and accuracy instead of just swinging as hard as they can.

IMO, golf clubs have kind of gotten to the point where they are almost like if baseball would allow the use of aluminum bats in MLB.  

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14 minutes ago, ZenGolfer said:

I say limit driver clubhead size to 200cc, limit shaft length to 43.5" and call it a day.  That would force the pros into going back to relying on feel and accuracy instead of just swinging as hard as they can.

IMO, golf clubs have kind of gotten to the point where they are almost like if baseball would allow the use of aluminum bats in MLB.  

Their 3w are under 200cc and they go at them pretty hard. TM sim 3w is one of the bigger ones out there at180cc and Rahm swings pretty aggressive with. 
 

Rory has a sim max 5w that’s 185cc

DJ is on video hitting an old persimmon driver that’s not fitted for him 300. The elite are going to hit the ball a long way. 

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I say limit driver clubhead size to 200cc, limit shaft length to 43.5" and call it a day.  That would force the pros into going back to relying on feel and accuracy instead of just swinging as hard as they can.
IMO, golf clubs have kind of gotten to the point where they are almost like if baseball would allow the use of aluminum bats in MLB.  


200cc might be a little too small maybe, but I think you’re on the right track. 460cc is just too big.



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Closes eye's:

(Self talk in mind: eye's clinched........thinks real hard of ALL the popular "ball" sports in the world..........basketball, pool, water polo, soccer, baseball, ping pong, tennis, rugby, cricket, etc.........yes, so many.  Regulation courts? Regulation balls and/or equipment?)

Opens eye's.......thinks deeply of the sport lacking those (golf). Asks self "why," and with such infinite solutions to problem, given the lack of "court" and "equipment," why it's hard to resolve......

***Awakens from pondering, gotta run, hot pocket is burning! Hellz yeah!

 

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TGC is covering this topic (report) today.  Mixed opinions from the handful of tour players and amateurs.  I really liked Chamblee's take on how distance vs. driving accuracy has become out of whack."The fact that you can drive the ball off line and still get rewarded is not good for the tour game".  He went on to give an example of how Augusta National has changed course conditions (rough principally) to keep up with the length gains due to advances in equipment.  They use the average winning score over the years as evidence of that.  This is going to be a fun discussion to follow.  

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2 hours ago, JohnSmalls said:

Instead of taking a look at distance lets look at scoring averages.  If those aren't dropping by significant margins, which they don't seem to be, then I don't believe there is a problem.

Good point but keep in mind that many newer courses and even older ones have been modified (lengthened) to offset the increasing hitting lengths. The issue is at the tour level.  It's my opinion that they should start trying solutions with course changes (like @DaveP043suggested) and then possibly bifurcation that rolls back performance for pros. Of course this won't change advantage between players, but would keep existing tournament courses from being outpaced by the distance race.

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29 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

TGC is covering this topic (report) today.  Mixed opinions from the handful of tour players and amateurs.  I really liked Chamblee's take on how distance vs. driving accuracy has become out of whack."The fact that you can drive the ball off line and still get rewarded is not good for the tour game".  He went on to give an example of how Augusta National has changed course conditions (rough principally) to keep up with the length gains due to advances in equipment.  They use the average winning score over the years as evidence of that.  This is going to be a fun discussion to follow.  

Driving accuracy might not be a big issue for Tour players, but it is for most of the guys I play with. We are much better off hitting an 8 iron out of the fairway than a wedge out of Bermuda rough. 

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27 minutes ago, Bosox04 said:

Driving accuracy might not be a big issue for Tour players, but it is for most of the guys I play with. We are much better off hitting an 8 iron out of the fairway than a wedge out of Bermuda rough. 

Most of the guys I play with that hit an 8 iron out of the fairway will be hitting a wedge out of the rough for their next shot. 😆   Fortunately, we don't have Bermuda.

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@Trial&Error I thought about making a point that the pro tour could potentially implement a standard ball across the board.  The issue with this, I think, would be at what professional level would you force this change and are the tours going to be responsible for providing the balls to the players?  I still think modifying course conditions is the solution over equipment changes.  I don’t care if it takes -20 or even par to win, they’ve all got to play the same course and the lowest score still wins.

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200cc might be a little too small maybe, but I think you’re on the right track. 460cc is just too big.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'd be fine with 250-300cc. Imo, modern drivers are too big and allow golfers to swing for the fences and still make decent contact.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

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51 minutes ago, Smellis745 said:

@Trial&Error I thought about making a point that the pro tour could potentially implement a standard ball across the board.  The issue with this, I think, would be at what professional level would you force this change and are the tours going to be responsible for providing the balls to the players?  I still think modifying course conditions is the solution over equipment changes.  I don’t care if it takes -20 or even par to win, they’ve all got to play the same course and the lowest score still wins.

I don't disagree.......that's why I posted it as an open ended thought provocation. There's alot going on is the discussion as "they" present it. But as a whole, it's actually open ended (extremely so) as to the possible remedies, considering the lack of "boundaries" given golf versus all other ball sports (literally almost all). Think of this: in the other named ball sports, of those, which are having debates of equipment companies or products (balls) going to far? Or the companies that are putting materials like titanium, tungsten, etc into new products for "further advantage?" They all have a gold standard I think, +/-.

In my mind, again being open ended to solutions, i think the crux of the matter is two:

1) golf has an identity problem, one to resolve at the professional level and/or tour level........while still "celebrating" the new long hitters and record slayers (and "elite athlete," for another thread) while honoring the old guard and records.......can't represent the new talent and story while crushing the old

2) golf seems the only "ball sport" to have allowed the equipment manufacturers (again, given no reg. "courts," "ball," pr bare with me, "striking implement?") to bake in the the performance advantage into the sport over the past 100+ years.......thus allowing it's own perpetual "steroid" via equipment.....and if you read CAREFULLY, the only thing stopping them from correcting is the threat of suit.

And so we come back to how to fix. It's fascinating really I think. I look forward to seeing it unfold and watching.

 

This is not a taking of sides, I don't have the answers, but can see some underlying currents of perceived "problems" that are that of business vs sport and not of actual regulation....or just a lack of imagination. I could draw up a "golf court" I think helps solve the whole issue, but again, "you can't do that" says golf industry.

Edited by Trial&Error
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When we watched the Superbowl, did we tire of the advertisements for the competing manufacturers football that went further, with the 7% lower drag and tighter spiral, pattern designs for easier catches, or "tight seam pattern for aerodynamics?" (lol)

The World series, got sick of all the adds for the new baseball bats, with "unobtanium," low center of mass for down the line homers and easier flight out past center field. So on and so on.....golf has allowed those to be built deep into the fabric and it's fearful on what to do. But given all the years of this, what are they seeing now and scared of versus when we were going from all the other advancements in decades gone by, before manufacturers were golf's "steroid" and woven in before steroids were in baseball (during the * era of baseball)

 

Man I don't know. LOL

Edited by Trial&Error

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There’s a limit on club length, cor/ct, head size, the ball has its restrictions.

Distance is and will come from golfers getting stronger and better at the swing and optimizing their launch conditions. Technology with launch monitors have been huge in this. The engineers at the club companies finding ways to make the clubs lighter, faster and generate more ball speed. For the elite the speeds are going to come in small increments a couple miles and hour at a time. 
 

As Brandel talked about tonight if they mate accuracy more of a factor it would fix the optics issue the usga is trying to regulate. 

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Grow the fairways up a little, narrow them, cut them towards the tees, have some “rough”...

Stop playing the same courses every year...

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23 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

There’s a limit on club length, cor/ct, head size, the ball has its restrictions.

Distance is and will come from golfers getting stronger and better at the swing and optimizing their launch conditions. Technology with launch monitors have been huge in this. The engineers at the club companies finding ways to make the clubs lighter, faster and generate more ball speed. For the elite the speeds are going to come in small increments a couple miles and hour at a time. 
 

As Brandel talked about tonight if they mate accuracy more of a factor it would fix the optics issue the usga is trying to regulate. 

Again I agree. But all things bolded are also still not a "standard." They are attempting to implement a standard piece by piece, letting the engineers beat them to the next piece. Point still being, if equipment is where "they think" they can stop this, they must go all the way there and implement the "standard model." Without, leaves the companies to go around looking for all those things (or others) mentioned. But they won't yet do this for many reasons I'd imagine.

I agree with you and Brandel, my mind sees the implement of course design being most logical. Just being devils advocate, I understand what they are tip toing around with the basic throwing out for general public opinion.......but it's not really helping them to resolve because that would be tough and piss people off LOL

Edited by Trial&Error

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