Tsecor Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 10 minutes ago, NRJyzr said: Too much evidence suggests otherwise. Much of what's stated as fuel for "the ball is to hot" is the result of other factors. Thats fine....but pretty much the entire golfing world has concluded the jump in ball tech is the biggest improvement in direct relation to distance gains....but everyone knows its not just 1 thing.... Quote Golf is cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny B Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 20 minutes ago, Tsecor said: If they want to cut their own neck like that, so be it.....but they would most likely take it as an opportunity to make all kinds of money in new sales. I don't think that 99% of golfers will run out and buy new stuff that shortens their distance. They will hang on to their equipment or buy used. The equipment for the pros is free. Why should they re-tool for for that? If the OEMs take a stand, then the USGA and R&A has lost control of the rules. Quote “We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storm319 Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 7 minutes ago, Tsecor said: i agree with the fitness part and obviously shaft tech....but Jack and Arnie are not wrong when it comes to the ball. While the ball paradigm shift at the turn of the century has had an impact on distance, Jack greatly overestimates its significance and is a bit disingenuous when he fails to acknowledge any other factors (namely that the average Tour player is simply better than they were during his era). He also has two big conflicts of interest when speaking on this subject a) his playing legacy and b) his lucrative course design business. He also didn't really start complaining about the ball until his competitive playing career was coming to an end. Also keep in mind that he also complained when the Titleist Professional (first cast thermoset urethane wound ball) came out mainly due to the spin reduction vs balata and the shift to the solid core was just more of that. The other thing that people fail to realize was that the shift from wound to solid core pails in comparison to the shift from the gutty to wound that occurred a century ago. That was so drastic that the USGA actually took action in the form of a rollback on minimum diameter and maximum weight in the late 1920's only to reverse the weight regulation a few years later due to massive public outcry. NRJyzr 1 Quote TS2 9.5 909F2 15.5 690.CB 3-PW Vokey SM5 50, 56 Works Versa 1W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsecor Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 2 minutes ago, storm319 said: While the ball paradigm shift at the turn of the century has had an impact on distance, Jack greatly overestimates its significance and is a bit disingenuous when he fails to acknowledge any other factors (namely that the average Tour player is simply better than they were during his era). He also has two big conflicts of interest when speaking on this subject a) his playing legacy and b) his lucrative course design business. He also didn't really start complaining about the ball until his competitive playing career was coming to an end. Also keep in mind that he also complained when the Titleist Professional (first cast thermoset urethane wound ball) came out mainly due to the spin reduction vs balata and the shift to the solid core was just more of that. The other thing that people fail to realize was that the shift from wound to solid core pails in comparison to the shift from the gutty to wound that occurred a century ago. That was so drastic that the USGA actually took action in the form of a rollback on minimum diameter and maximum weight in the late 1920's only to reverse the weight regulation a few years later due to massive public outcry. This isnt really a debate about 2 of the greatest players of all time including the GOAT and their "disingenuous " take on the subject....but if thats the path you want to take, so be it. To me, it feels like i just landed on mars when i see a post like this. Calling Jack disingenuous when it comes to anything regarding the game of GOLF is just spewing hate and im not into that at all. Tiger even said the same thing when it came to his Nike ball. Quote Golf is cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsecor Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 29 minutes ago, Kenny B said: I don't think that 99% of golfers will run out and buy new stuff that shortens their distance. They will hang on to their equipment or buy used. The equipment for the pros is free. Why should they re-tool for for that? If the OEMs take a stand, then the USGA and R&A has lost control of the rules. disagree because if thats all that is on the shelves at some point, the consumer will have no choice. Quote Golf is cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NRJyzr Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 39 minutes ago, Tsecor said: Thats fine....but pretty much the entire golfing world has concluded the jump in ball tech is the biggest improvement in direct relation to distance gains....but everyone knows its not just 1 thing.... This *is* a data based website. Show us the data. My stance is data based. I've seen plenty of "ball is the problem" comments over the years, on many forums, but no one shares any actual data that's relevant to any valid golf ball comparative. Quote Driver: TM Original One 11.5* set to 11*, Aldila NV75 X, 43.5" -or- SpeedZone, HZRDUS Black 75 6.5, 43.5" 3w: Cobra King LTD, RIP Beta 90, 42" -or- Stage 2 Tour, NV105 X, 42.5" 2h or 3h: TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour, Aldila NV105 S -or- RIP Alpha 105 S Irons: 3-PW Mizuno MP37, Recoil Proto 125 F4 (reshaft in progress, slowly); 1i & 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S; 2-PW Golden Ram TW282, RIP Tour 115 R GW: Dynacraft Dual Milled CNC 52*, Steelfiber 125 S; Scratch 8620 DS 53*, Steelfiber 125 S SW: Ram TG-898 56*, DGX ss2x; Ram Tom Watson 55*, DGX ss2x; Wilson Staff PMP 58*, DGS; PM Grind 19 58*, stock shaft Putter: Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34"; Ping Scottsdale TR Craz-E, 35"; Cleveland Huntington Beach 1, 35" Ball: Wilson Staff Duo Professional, Bridgestone Tour B-RXS, Callaway Chrome Soft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny B Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 6 minutes ago, Tsecor said: disagree because if thats all that is on the shelves at some point, the consumer will have no choice. But I'm saying the new stuff won't be on the shelf IF the OEMs keep making it like they are today. The ruling bodies can't mandate that they change; they have to go along with it. My question still stands: What if they don't go along with it? Quote “We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storm319 Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 56 minutes ago, Tsecor said: i agree with the fitness part and obviously shaft tech....but Jack and Arnie are not wrong when it comes to the ball. I agree with @NRJyzr. Basic physics points to club head speed having the greatest single impact on distance and data from that time period correlates the gains more to the large average increase in club head speed on Tour during that time period than the balls speed gains or spin reduction between the late wound balls (like the Titleist Professional) vs the early multilayer balls (like the Titleist ProV1). NRJyzr 1 Quote TS2 9.5 909F2 15.5 690.CB 3-PW Vokey SM5 50, 56 Works Versa 1W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NRJyzr Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, storm319 said: I agree with @NRJyzr. Basic physics points to club head speed having the greatest single impact on distance and data from that time period correlates the gains more to the large average increase in club head speed on Tour during that time period than the balls speed gains or spin reduction between the late wound balls (like the Titleist Professional) vs the early multilayer balls (like the Titleist ProV1). A few years ago, I got curious and ran a comparison of the PGA Tour Driving Distance stat, between 1999 and 2002. The idea was to isolate it down to only those players who had played in both seasons, in an attempt to show the change for those guys who switched from wound to solid. I'd picked 2002 to try weed out the slow adopters, but there's no guarantee. I also didn't account for those guys using the Stratas or solid core Bridgestones/Precepts, not having much beyond Furyk and O'Meara. That difference was less than 6 yards (hence my earlier 5.5 yds comment). My take is, anything since then is related to something else, like fitness, launch conditions, shaft tech, clubhead size/MOI, more coached efficient (in theory) swings, etc Edited February 14, 2020 by NRJyzr JohnSmalls 1 Quote Driver: TM Original One 11.5* set to 11*, Aldila NV75 X, 43.5" -or- SpeedZone, HZRDUS Black 75 6.5, 43.5" 3w: Cobra King LTD, RIP Beta 90, 42" -or- Stage 2 Tour, NV105 X, 42.5" 2h or 3h: TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour, Aldila NV105 S -or- RIP Alpha 105 S Irons: 3-PW Mizuno MP37, Recoil Proto 125 F4 (reshaft in progress, slowly); 1i & 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S; 2-PW Golden Ram TW282, RIP Tour 115 R GW: Dynacraft Dual Milled CNC 52*, Steelfiber 125 S; Scratch 8620 DS 53*, Steelfiber 125 S SW: Ram TG-898 56*, DGX ss2x; Ram Tom Watson 55*, DGX ss2x; Wilson Staff PMP 58*, DGS; PM Grind 19 58*, stock shaft Putter: Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34"; Ping Scottsdale TR Craz-E, 35"; Cleveland Huntington Beach 1, 35" Ball: Wilson Staff Duo Professional, Bridgestone Tour B-RXS, Callaway Chrome Soft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storm319 Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 11 minutes ago, Tsecor said: This isnt really a debate about 2 of the greatest players of all time including the GOAT and their "disingenuous " take on the subject....but if thats the path you want to take, so be it. To me, it feels like i just landed on mars when i see a post like this. Calling Jack disingenuous when it comes to anything regarding the game of GOLF is just spewing hate and im not into that at all. Tiger even said the same thing when it came to his Nike ball. I could be wrong but didn't you bring Jack into this conversation? And how does a minor criticism constitute spewing hate? Jack Nicklaus is a human with flaws just like any other human and his accomplishments (remember that his accomplishments are based on playing a game, not doing anything particularly important for society at large) does not put him above criticism for the rest of his life nor does it for any other human. The reality is the numbers he throws out are not based on any real data, it is based on his subjective perception. The USGA should be taking a methodical, data-centric approach to any proposed regulation changes rather than listening to the opinions of influencers whoever they may be. silver & black and JohnSmalls 2 Quote TS2 9.5 909F2 15.5 690.CB 3-PW Vokey SM5 50, 56 Works Versa 1W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storm319 Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 14 minutes ago, NRJyzr said: A few years ago, I got curious and ran a comparison of the PGA Tour Driving Distance stat, between 1999 and 2002. The idea was to isolate it down to only those players who had played in both seasons, in an attempt to show the change for those guys who switched from wound to solid. I'd picked 2002 to try weed out the slow adopters, but there's no guarantee. I also didn't account for those guys using the Stratas or solid core Bridgestones/Precepts, not having much beyond Furyk and O'Meara. That difference was less than 6 yards (hence my earlier 5.5 yds comment). My take is, anything since then is related to something else, like fitness, launch conditions, shaft tech, clubhead size/MOI, more coached efficient (in theory) swings, etc The problem is that many people quickly abandon objective, logical thought for subjective emotion when quantifying a problem becomes difficult which is why this debate will never end even if the USGA makes regulatory changes in some capacity. NRJyzr 1 Quote TS2 9.5 909F2 15.5 690.CB 3-PW Vokey SM5 50, 56 Works Versa 1W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THEZIPR23 Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 1 hour ago, Tsecor said: High school golf "governs" by the section. They have certain rules they draft, implement and follow.....most rules align with NCAA rules with some minor differences in certain areas. but like i said, its not that big a deal in my opinion....changes happen all the time. people have to adapt and when it comes to the money? of course that comes into play. It is a HUGE deal and as Dave said where is the break? There isn't a clean one no matter where you put it. Quote Stealth 2+ 9 (Diamana PD 60 S 45") Stealth 2+ 15 (Diamana PD 70 S 43") G425 19 (Raijin 2.0 85x) G425 22 (Raijin 2.0 85x) ZX7 5-9 (KBS C Taper S) Vokey SM9 45 10 F (KBS 610) Vokey SM9 49 08 F (KBS 610) Vokey SM9 55 08 M (KBS 610) Vokey SM9 59 04 T (KBS 610) Spider GT Splitback 34" ProV1 #23 Twitter @THEZIPR23 "One thing Golf has taught me, is that my muscles have no memory." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveP043 Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 30 minutes ago, Kenny B said: But I'm saying the new stuff won't be on the shelf IF the OEMs keep making it like they are today. The ruling bodies can't mandate that they change; they have to go along with it. My question still stands: What if they don't go along with it? This is exactly the issue that the Ruling Bodies are trying to avoid, the reason that they specifically say they have no plans to roll back equipment for all players. To me, any talk of distance rollbacks across the board simply ignores what the USGA/R&A have very clearly stated. But bifurcation, even via an approved local rule, will require manufacturer cooperation. The market for the "reduced-distance" equipment will be pretty small if its only elite players. Manufacturers will have to decide whether the investment in research, product development, and manufacturing facilities will be worth it. It becomes a smaller issue if its only the golf ball that gets changed, but its still significant. Certainly some of manufacturers will agree, but I'm sure some will choose not to produce separate lines of stuff for elite players. This is part of the next step, getting together the Ruling Bodies, the professional tours, and the manufacturers to try to find some way that can be swallowed by all parties. And I do mean swallowed rather than accepted, I'm pretty sure the manufacturers and the pro players will fight this tooth and nail. My bet is that there are too many conflicting opinions and motivations, and that equipment-related distance reductions will not happen. We may see additional factors regulated and tested, but not rolled back. Kenny B 1 Quote Irons Titleist T200, AMT Red stiff Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X T22 54 and 58 wedges 7-wood 5-wood B60 G5i putter Right handed Reston, Virginia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsecor Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 45 minutes ago, Kenny B said: But I'm saying the new stuff won't be on the shelf IF the OEMs keep making it like they are today. The ruling bodies can't mandate that they change; they have to go along with it. My question still stands: What if they don't go along with it? If they dont, obviously you would see a delay.....but new OEMs would arise and eventually.....you would see everyone on board. Quote Golf is cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsecor Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 19 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said: It is a HUGE deal and as Dave said where is the break? There isn't a clean one no matter where you put it. It doesnt matter though....to the point, people and organizations have to adapt.....has history not taught us anything? look at the biggest changes in rules and equipment throughout sports, not just golf.....people said the same stuff you guys are saying for 100's of years look at the DH in baseball, wood bats vs aluminum / composite. In soccer, you used to be able to run with the ball like Rugby.....that changed. The shot clock in basketball....goal tending wasnt banned until the mid 40's in basketball.....i could go on and on for days with equipment / rule changes....the 2 pt conversion in football..blasphemous......the addition of the red line in hockey..... the point is rolling back the ball or equipment and building "short courses" may seem like a huge deal, but everyone adapts and the game continues on like nothing happened....sure, hr frst year of playing under the new rules might be strange to what you are used to, but 3 yrs in, its the new norm..... Quote Golf is cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsecor Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 51 minutes ago, NRJyzr said: A few years ago, I got curious and ran a comparison of the PGA Tour Driving Distance stat, between 1999 and 2002. The idea was to isolate it down to only those players who had played in both seasons, in an attempt to show the change for those guys who switched from wound to solid. I'd picked 2002 to try weed out the slow adopters, but there's no guarantee. I also didn't account for those guys using the Stratas or solid core Bridgestones/Precepts, not having much beyond Furyk and O'Meara. That difference was less than 6 yards (hence my earlier 5.5 yds comment). My take is, anything since then is related to something else, like fitness, launch conditions, shaft tech, clubhead size/MOI, more coached efficient (in theory) swings, etc Your view doesnt work because your start date is 5-8 years too late. Here is a good article on the subject. your numbers are half of what this article states. But another, even bigger factor is a drastic improvement in equipment over the years. Before the 1990s, driver clubheads were significantly smaller, made of heavy material like persimmon (instead of metal) and attached to the ends of shorter, heavier metal shafts (as opposed to graphite). As more and more players began switching to modern clubs — the last major won with a persimmon driver was Bernhard Langer’s victory at the 1993 Masters — the tour began to see a massive increase in driving distance (and, interestingly enough, a decrease in driving accuracy). More than just the introduction of fitter players, established golfers were also hitting the ball harder: The 60 players who qualified for the PGA Tour driving leaderboard in both 1995 and 2005 saw an average increase of 18.6 yards per drive over that span. Simply put, lighter clubs with a longer shaft and larger clubhead surface area generate more power. As a fun exercise last year, YouTuber and PGA club pro Rick Shiels hit 10 drives with both a top-of-the-line club from about 20 years ago (the Ping TiSi Tec) and 2018 (the Ping G400 Max) and measured the results using tracking analytics. On average, Shiels estimated to have hit the ball 16 yards farther in the air (and 19 yards farther in total) with the modern driver, thanks in part to a ball velocity 4 mph faster off the clubhead: Of course, the ball itself has also made it easier to drive for huge distances. The introduction of Titleist’s Pro V1 model in 2000 — which features a “multilayer” design with a solid rubber core and thin polymer casing — instantly revolutionized the way balls were manufactured, optimizing power without sacrificing accuracy. When Shiels ran a similar test between 1998 and 2018 golf balls (using the same club for each), he drove the ball 11 yards farther through the air — and 12 yards farther in total — with the current Pro V1, thanks again to a nearly 3 mph boost in velocity off the face. These clear technological improvements have led to questions over whether such advantages should be dialed back at the pro level to make the game harder again. Although the golf ball debate rages on, many top-tier courses have been remade since the ’90s, “Tiger-proofing” themselves by adding more distance to their layouts. Par-72 major championship courses in the 1990s averaged 7,006.1 yards in total length; by the 2000s, that average became 7,319.3 yards and this decade it’s 7,456.6 yards — a 6.4 percent increase that mirrors the change in average driving distance since the early 2000s. And just like the existing players increased their power through technology, existing major hosts have added length to offset it. Sixteen courses hosted a major in both the 1990s and 2010s; those courses averaged 7,011.6 yards back then and 7,307.9 yards now — an increase of 296.3 yards on average. Even the Black Course at Bethpage State Park in Long Island, which hosts this weekend’s PGA Championship, has increased its length by 222 yards since it hosted Woods’s U.S. Open victory back in 2002. We should note that both the boom in driving distances and the Tiger-proofing craze have largely leveled off since the mid-2000s. The average PGA Tour drive continues to creep up by a couple of yards every few years, but today’s long-drive leaders, such as Champ, Johnson and Rory McIlroy, are mostly hitting it the same distance as Bubba Watson and Robert Garrigus were a decade earlier. In that sense, the game Woods left when his 11-year major drought began in 2008 was actually similar to the one he climbed to the top of again last month. Quote Golf is cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NRJyzr Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 13 minutes ago, Tsecor said: Your view doesnt work because your start date is 5-8 years too late. Here is a good article on the subject. your numbers are half of what this article states. But another, even bigger factor is a drastic improvement in equipment over the years. Before the 1990s, driver clubheads were significantly smaller, made of heavy material like persimmon (instead of metal) and attached to the ends of shorter, heavier metal shafts (as opposed to graphite). As more and more players began switching to modern clubs — the last major won with a persimmon driver was Bernhard Langer’s victory at the 1993 Masters — the tour began to see a massive increase in driving distance (and, interestingly enough, a decrease in driving accuracy). More than just the introduction of fitter players, established golfers were also hitting the ball harder: The 60 players who qualified for the PGA Tour driving leaderboard in both 1995 and 2005 saw an average increase of 18.6 yards per drive over that span. Simply put, lighter clubs with a longer shaft and larger clubhead surface area generate more power. As a fun exercise last year, YouTuber and PGA club pro Rick Shiels hit 10 drives with both a top-of-the-line club from about 20 years ago (the Ping TiSi Tec) and 2018 (the Ping G400 Max) and measured the results using tracking analytics. On average, Shiels estimated to have hit the ball 16 yards farther in the air (and 19 yards farther in total) with the modern driver, thanks in part to a ball velocity 4 mph faster off the clubhead: Of course, the ball itself has also made it easier to drive for huge distances. The introduction of Titleist’s Pro V1 model in 2000 — which features a “multilayer” design with a solid rubber core and thin polymer casing — instantly revolutionized the way balls were manufactured, optimizing power without sacrificing accuracy. When Shiels ran a similar test between 1998 and 2018 golf balls (using the same club for each), he drove the ball 11 yards farther through the air — and 12 yards farther in total — with the current Pro V1, thanks again to a nearly 3 mph boost in velocity off the face. These clear technological improvements have led to questions over whether such advantages should be dialed back at the pro level to make the game harder again. Although the golf ball debate rages on, many top-tier courses have been remade since the ’90s, “Tiger-proofing” themselves by adding more distance to their layouts. Par-72 major championship courses in the 1990s averaged 7,006.1 yards in total length; by the 2000s, that average became 7,319.3 yards and this decade it’s 7,456.6 yards — a 6.4 percent increase that mirrors the change in average driving distance since the early 2000s. And just like the existing players increased their power through technology, existing major hosts have added length to offset it. Sixteen courses hosted a major in both the 1990s and 2010s; those courses averaged 7,011.6 yards back then and 7,307.9 yards now — an increase of 296.3 yards on average. Even the Black Course at Bethpage State Park in Long Island, which hosts this weekend’s PGA Championship, has increased its length by 222 yards since it hosted Woods’s U.S. Open victory back in 2002. We should note that both the boom in driving distances and the Tiger-proofing craze have largely leveled off since the mid-2000s. The average PGA Tour drive continues to creep up by a couple of yards every few years, but today’s long-drive leaders, such as Champ, Johnson and Rory McIlroy, are mostly hitting it the same distance as Bubba Watson and Robert Garrigus were a decade earlier. In that sense, the game Woods left when his 11-year major drought began in 2008 was actually similar to the one he climbed to the top of again last month. My view works perfectly fine, because it's related to the ball, which is what you were talking about before this post. In 1999, the vast majority of Tour players were using a wound ball. Talking about the clubs more or less supports my point. Generally speaking. Quote Driver: TM Original One 11.5* set to 11*, Aldila NV75 X, 43.5" -or- SpeedZone, HZRDUS Black 75 6.5, 43.5" 3w: Cobra King LTD, RIP Beta 90, 42" -or- Stage 2 Tour, NV105 X, 42.5" 2h or 3h: TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour, Aldila NV105 S -or- RIP Alpha 105 S Irons: 3-PW Mizuno MP37, Recoil Proto 125 F4 (reshaft in progress, slowly); 1i & 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S; 2-PW Golden Ram TW282, RIP Tour 115 R GW: Dynacraft Dual Milled CNC 52*, Steelfiber 125 S; Scratch 8620 DS 53*, Steelfiber 125 S SW: Ram TG-898 56*, DGX ss2x; Ram Tom Watson 55*, DGX ss2x; Wilson Staff PMP 58*, DGS; PM Grind 19 58*, stock shaft Putter: Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34"; Ping Scottsdale TR Craz-E, 35"; Cleveland Huntington Beach 1, 35" Ball: Wilson Staff Duo Professional, Bridgestone Tour B-RXS, Callaway Chrome Soft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THEZIPR23 Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 1 hour ago, Tsecor said: It doesnt matter though....to the point, people and organizations have to adapt.....has history not taught us anything? look at the biggest changes in rules and equipment throughout sports, not just golf.....people said the same stuff you guys are saying for 100's of years look at the DH in baseball, wood bats vs aluminum / composite. In soccer, you used to be able to run with the ball like Rugby.....that changed. The shot clock in basketball....goal tending wasnt banned until the mid 40's in basketball.....i could go on and on for days with equipment / rule changes....the 2 pt conversion in football..blasphemous......the addition of the red line in hockey..... the point is rolling back the ball or equipment and building "short courses" may seem like a huge deal, but everyone adapts and the game continues on like nothing happened....sure, hr frst year of playing under the new rules might be strange to what you are used to, but 3 yrs in, its the new norm..... You are talking about 2 different things, 1 bifurcation 2 a roll back. They are completely different. Golf has one thing that no other sport has had or will ever have and that is the ability for anyone to qualify and compete on the same level with the elite. Not just the opens but all the am events as well. Bifurcation changes the entire golf world, not just for a period of time but forever. storm319, HardcoreLooper, DaveP043 and 1 other 4 Quote Stealth 2+ 9 (Diamana PD 60 S 45") Stealth 2+ 15 (Diamana PD 70 S 43") G425 19 (Raijin 2.0 85x) G425 22 (Raijin 2.0 85x) ZX7 5-9 (KBS C Taper S) Vokey SM9 45 10 F (KBS 610) Vokey SM9 49 08 F (KBS 610) Vokey SM9 55 08 M (KBS 610) Vokey SM9 59 04 T (KBS 610) Spider GT Splitback 34" ProV1 #23 Twitter @THEZIPR23 "One thing Golf has taught me, is that my muscles have no memory." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsecor Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 21 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said: You are talking about 2 different things, 1 bifurcation 2 a roll back. They are completely different. Golf has one thing that no other sport has had or will ever have and that is the ability for anyone to qualify and compete on the same level with the elite. Not just the opens but all the am events as well. Bifurcation changes the entire golf world, not just for a period of time but forever. You actually brought up that point not myself. We’re talking about equipment not splitting something into two different leagues so that point was mute the whole time. We’re talking about changing the bar shortening courses as the title states fixing the distance problemYou actually brought up that point not myself. We’re talking about equipment not splitting something into two different leagues so that point was mute the whole time. We’re talking about changing the bar shortening courses as the title states fixing the distance problem Quote Golf is cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsecor Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 1 hour ago, NRJyzr said: My view works perfectly fine, because it's related to the ball, which is what you were talking about before this post. In 1999, the vast majority of Tour players were using a wound ball. Talking about the clubs more or less supports my point. Generally speaking. That’s why I added the stuff about the equipment because as we said earlier it’s not just one thing it’s a host of things but we focused on the ball because that is probably the biggest change that we have seen in the last 20 years related to distance. Some agree some don’t but the PGA pros now and in the past I’ll talk about it they all realize what the biggest technological gain has been Quote Golf is cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NRJyzr Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 8 minutes ago, Tsecor said: ...but we focused on the ball because that is probably the biggest change that we have seen in the last 20 years related to distance. You *think* it is. Others do also. The data, not so much. I said it before, this is a data driven site. Show us the data. I'm willing to be convinced if the data exists, and is solid. I've never seen anything, just a lot of opinions based on anecdotes. Which aren't much different than Phil Mickelson saying the Pro V1 gave him 20 or 30 yards, while the driving distance stat showed him +3 (from 1999 to 2002) (Youtube videos showing a comparison between a 20 year old wound ball and a new solid core ball don't count, LOL) Quote Driver: TM Original One 11.5* set to 11*, Aldila NV75 X, 43.5" -or- SpeedZone, HZRDUS Black 75 6.5, 43.5" 3w: Cobra King LTD, RIP Beta 90, 42" -or- Stage 2 Tour, NV105 X, 42.5" 2h or 3h: TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour, Aldila NV105 S -or- RIP Alpha 105 S Irons: 3-PW Mizuno MP37, Recoil Proto 125 F4 (reshaft in progress, slowly); 1i & 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S; 2-PW Golden Ram TW282, RIP Tour 115 R GW: Dynacraft Dual Milled CNC 52*, Steelfiber 125 S; Scratch 8620 DS 53*, Steelfiber 125 S SW: Ram TG-898 56*, DGX ss2x; Ram Tom Watson 55*, DGX ss2x; Wilson Staff PMP 58*, DGS; PM Grind 19 58*, stock shaft Putter: Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34"; Ping Scottsdale TR Craz-E, 35"; Cleveland Huntington Beach 1, 35" Ball: Wilson Staff Duo Professional, Bridgestone Tour B-RXS, Callaway Chrome Soft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THEZIPR23 Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 5 hours ago, Tsecor said: I dont think its that deep. Once the PGA incorporates, it would filter down to the appropriate level and then high schools would govern their own way, just like they do now. This is you specifically quoting a post about bifurcation. But ok man. Quote Stealth 2+ 9 (Diamana PD 60 S 45") Stealth 2+ 15 (Diamana PD 70 S 43") G425 19 (Raijin 2.0 85x) G425 22 (Raijin 2.0 85x) ZX7 5-9 (KBS C Taper S) Vokey SM9 45 10 F (KBS 610) Vokey SM9 49 08 F (KBS 610) Vokey SM9 55 08 M (KBS 610) Vokey SM9 59 04 T (KBS 610) Spider GT Splitback 34" ProV1 #23 Twitter @THEZIPR23 "One thing Golf has taught me, is that my muscles have no memory." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NRJyzr Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 For what little it's worth, here's the data I pulled: PLAYER 99 avg 02 avg change Andrew Magee 279.93 282.94 3.02 Billy Andrade 269.54 279.76 10.22 Billy Mayfair 269.73 270.87 1.14 Blaine McCallister 270.32 274.86 4.54 Bo Van Pelt 280.69 290.75 10.06 Bob Burns 274.80 273.87 (0.94) Bob Estes 269.16 279.83 10.67 Bob Tway 274.36 283.62 9.26 Brad Faxon 265.87 269.60 3.74 Bradley Hughes 274.18 281.18 7.00 Brandel Chamblee 268.65 272.55 3.90 Brent Geiberger 273.90 282.80 8.90 Brett Quigley 276.71 282.28 5.57 Brian Gay 268.88 272.26 3.38 Brian Henninger 272.01 278.26 6.25 Brian Watts 267.39 272.79 5.40 Briny Baird 274.76 282.19 7.43 Cameron Beckman 280.09 282.19 2.10 Carlos Franco 277.93 290.71 12.78 Chris DiMarco 274.98 279.69 4.71 Chris Riley 271.60 272.69 1.09 Chris Smith 287.20 292.24 5.04 Corey Pavin 252.48 258.07 5.60 Craig Barlow 280.42 284.67 4.25 Craig Parry 269.97 278.29 8.32 Craig Stadler 277.22 280.43 3.21 Dan Forsman 274.82 274.71 (0.11) David Duval 286.75 290.84 4.09 David Frost 268.24 269.49 1.25 David Toms 275.35 279.17 3.82 Davis Love III 283.05 287.65 4.60 Deane Pappas 274.96 283.91 8.95 Dennis Paulson 286.28 293.72 7.44 Dicky Pride 265.94 276.27 10.32 Dudley Hart 276.32 276.74 0.42 Duffy Waldorf 279.90 284.51 4.62 Ernie Els 278.18 281.38 3.20 Esteban Toledo 261.25 264.94 3.69 Frank Lickliter II 267.79 283.01 15.22 Frank Nobilo 265.38 274.71 9.33 Franklin Langham 270.46 276.06 5.60 Fred Couples 283.45 288.63 5.18 Fred Funk 269.66 272.98 3.32 Fulton Allem 261.91 267.53 5.61 Glen Day 271.77 270.04 (1.73) Grant Waite 280.42 283.91 3.49 Greg Chalmers 276.04 280.79 4.75 Greg Kraft 267.11 267.70 0.59 Hal Sutton 276.38 277.33 0.94 Harrison Frazar 290.52 290.46 (0.06) J.L. Lewis 279.46 285.84 6.38 J.P. Hayes 277.07 277.11 0.04 Jay Don Blake 266.84 271.22 4.37 Jay Haas 266.55 273.31 6.76 Jay Williamson 273.62 275.76 2.15 Jeff Brehaut 269.76 280.23 10.47 Jeff Maggert 269.90 274.86 4.96 Jeff Sluman 269.07 272.94 3.87 Jerry Kelly 272.70 273.95 1.25 Jesper Parnevik 272.41 279.16 6.75 Jim Carter 266.30 275.31 9.01 Jim Furyk 265.54 271.81 6.26 Joe Durant 269.97 274.83 4.86 Joe Ogilvie 277.64 279.15 1.51 Joey Sindelar 269.02 285.77 16.75 John Cook 265.33 263.99 (1.35) John Daly 305.56 306.84 1.28 John Huston 272.40 281.59 9.19 Jonathan Kaye 279.95 286.06 6.11 Justin Leonard 271.20 278.69 7.49 Kenny Perry 280.45 286.38 5.93 Kent Jones 270.13 277.76 7.64 Kevin Sutherland 272.48 275.00 2.52 Kirk Triplett 276.40 275.02 (1.38) Lee Janzen 267.39 283.71 16.32 Lee Porter 259.00 265.04 6.04 Len Mattiace 270.12 276.91 6.79 Loren Roberts 254.80 267.99 13.20 Mark Brooks 265.00 270.09 5.08 Mark Calcavecchia 274.69 285.53 10.85 Mark O'Meara 266.88 274.98 8.11 Mike Hulbert 266.37 272.42 6.05 Mike Sposa 268.37 274.66 6.30 Mike Weir 274.79 280.03 5.24 Neal Lancaster 272.83 281.94 9.11 Nick Price 273.98 272.67 (1.31) Notah Begay III 283.79 280.78 (3.00) Olin Browne 265.44 268.07 2.63 Paul Azinger 273.08 276.17 3.09 Paul Goydos 265.82 271.34 5.52 Paul Stankowski 279.56 286.96 7.40 Pete Jordan 264.75 256.63 (8.12) Peter Jacobsen 276.20 281.54 5.34 Phil Mickelson 285.69 288.80 3.11 Phil Tataurangi 270.81 288.64 17.83 Rich Beem 272.88 292.05 19.18 Robert Allenby 279.50 286.70 7.20 Robert Damron 276.17 277.99 1.82 Robert Gamez 264.34 282.60 18.26 Robin Freeman 271.85 281.99 10.15 Rocco Mediate 271.44 277.33 5.89 Rory Sabbatini 292.68 289.00 (3.68) Russ Cochran 275.43 282.46 7.03 Scott Dunlap 273.66 272.47 (1.19) Scott Hoch 267.50 269.98 2.48 Scott McCarron 287.09 285.49 (1.60) Scott Simpson 256.85 264.64 7.79 Scott Verplank 270.77 268.52 (2.25) Skip Kendall 270.30 271.49 1.19 Stephen Ames 270.86 282.13 11.26 Steve Elkington 269.55 280.51 10.97 Steve Flesch 274.72 285.68 10.96 Steve Jones 274.38 276.85 2.47 Steve Lowery 271.90 280.54 8.64 Steve Pate 269.74 281.06 11.31 Steve Stricker 275.21 285.11 9.90 Stewart Cink 276.92 279.62 2.70 Stuart Appleby 280.11 289.04 8.93 Tiger Woods 293.07 293.33 0.26 Tim Herron 284.80 293.24 8.44 Tom Byrum 263.07 270.51 7.44 Tom Lehman 275.62 283.04 7.42 Tom Scherrer 276.38 279.26 2.88 Tommy Armour III 281.18 282.01 0.83 Tommy Tolles 276.24 289.28 13.04 Vijay Singh 284.31 285.64 1.33 Woody Austin 275.99 279.94 3.95 column totals 273.44 278.99 5.55 storm319 1 Quote Driver: TM Original One 11.5* set to 11*, Aldila NV75 X, 43.5" -or- SpeedZone, HZRDUS Black 75 6.5, 43.5" 3w: Cobra King LTD, RIP Beta 90, 42" -or- Stage 2 Tour, NV105 X, 42.5" 2h or 3h: TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour, Aldila NV105 S -or- RIP Alpha 105 S Irons: 3-PW Mizuno MP37, Recoil Proto 125 F4 (reshaft in progress, slowly); 1i & 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S; 2-PW Golden Ram TW282, RIP Tour 115 R GW: Dynacraft Dual Milled CNC 52*, Steelfiber 125 S; Scratch 8620 DS 53*, Steelfiber 125 S SW: Ram TG-898 56*, DGX ss2x; Ram Tom Watson 55*, DGX ss2x; Wilson Staff PMP 58*, DGS; PM Grind 19 58*, stock shaft Putter: Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34"; Ping Scottsdale TR Craz-E, 35"; Cleveland Huntington Beach 1, 35" Ball: Wilson Staff Duo Professional, Bridgestone Tour B-RXS, Callaway Chrome Soft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsecor Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, NRJyzr said: You *think* it is. Others do also. The data, not so much. I said it before, this is a data driven site. Show us the data. I'm willing to be convinced if the data exists, and is solid. I've never seen anything, just a lot of opinions based on anecdotes. Which aren't much different than Phil Mickelson saying the Pro V1 gave him 20 or 30 yards, while the driving distance stat showed him +3 (from 1999 to 2002) (Youtube videos showing a comparison between a 20 year old wound ball and a new solid core ball don't count, LOL) i hear ya and all the data is there, especially in 2001 with the prov1 introduction.....6 yard gain on average...just from the ball. here is one article on it....you can easily pull the data from whatever source you want. https://www.golfdigest.com/story/how-the-titleist-pro-v1-revolu The next year, 2001, average driving distance leapt six yards in a single season. There was a very clear reason for that huge jump -- the introduction of what might be the single most influential product in the history of any sport: the Titleist Pro V1 golf ball. Edited February 14, 2020 by Tsecor Quote Golf is cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NRJyzr Posted February 15, 2020 Share Posted February 15, 2020 13 hours ago, Tsecor said: i hear ya and all the data is there, especially in 2001 with the prov1 introduction.....6 yard gain on average...just from the ball. here is one article on it....you can easily pull the data from whatever source you want. https://www.golfdigest.com/story/how-the-titleist-pro-v1-revolu The next year, 2001, average driving distance leapt six yards in a single season. There was a very clear reason for that huge jump -- the introduction of what might be the single most influential product in the history of any sport: the Titleist Pro V1 golf ball. Bit confused. You told me you disagreed, but now you're showing the data that illustrates my position. I am of the opinion that 6 yards is essentially much ado about nothing. <shrug> Quote Driver: TM Original One 11.5* set to 11*, Aldila NV75 X, 43.5" -or- SpeedZone, HZRDUS Black 75 6.5, 43.5" 3w: Cobra King LTD, RIP Beta 90, 42" -or- Stage 2 Tour, NV105 X, 42.5" 2h or 3h: TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour, Aldila NV105 S -or- RIP Alpha 105 S Irons: 3-PW Mizuno MP37, Recoil Proto 125 F4 (reshaft in progress, slowly); 1i & 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S; 2-PW Golden Ram TW282, RIP Tour 115 R GW: Dynacraft Dual Milled CNC 52*, Steelfiber 125 S; Scratch 8620 DS 53*, Steelfiber 125 S SW: Ram TG-898 56*, DGX ss2x; Ram Tom Watson 55*, DGX ss2x; Wilson Staff PMP 58*, DGS; PM Grind 19 58*, stock shaft Putter: Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34"; Ping Scottsdale TR Craz-E, 35"; Cleveland Huntington Beach 1, 35" Ball: Wilson Staff Duo Professional, Bridgestone Tour B-RXS, Callaway Chrome Soft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsecor Posted February 15, 2020 Share Posted February 15, 2020 5 minutes ago, NRJyzr said: Bit confused. You told me you disagreed, but now you're showing the data that illustrates my position. I am of the opinion that 6 yards is essentially much ado about nothing. <shrug> If u dont think a 6 yard jump isnt big , cant help u there. The entire golf world historically recognizes that. So....time to move on i think. Quote Golf is cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsecor Posted February 15, 2020 Share Posted February 15, 2020 15 hours ago, THEZIPR23 said: This is you specifically quoting a post about bifurcation. But ok man. Thats a response. Just move on. U obviously dont get the point or just want to argue. Either way the point is beyond what u are willing to accept. Wrx has threads for u to argue. Head over there. I refuse to engage in these types of back and forth. Quote Golf is cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NRJyzr Posted February 15, 2020 Share Posted February 15, 2020 6 minutes ago, Tsecor said: If u dont think a 6 yard jump isnt big , cant help u there. The entire golf world historically recognizes that. So....time to move on i think. Probably, yes. Just think the 20+ yards that are due to the average swingspeed increase are a far bigger piece of the puzzle than the half club from a golf ball switch. Which was actually available previously, if anyone had cared to try. Not sure why everyone just *had* to switch when Tiger won the US Open with the Tour Accuracy. It's not like the ball was the reason he won by 15. LOL Quote Driver: TM Original One 11.5* set to 11*, Aldila NV75 X, 43.5" -or- SpeedZone, HZRDUS Black 75 6.5, 43.5" 3w: Cobra King LTD, RIP Beta 90, 42" -or- Stage 2 Tour, NV105 X, 42.5" 2h or 3h: TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour, Aldila NV105 S -or- RIP Alpha 105 S Irons: 3-PW Mizuno MP37, Recoil Proto 125 F4 (reshaft in progress, slowly); 1i & 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S; 2-PW Golden Ram TW282, RIP Tour 115 R GW: Dynacraft Dual Milled CNC 52*, Steelfiber 125 S; Scratch 8620 DS 53*, Steelfiber 125 S SW: Ram TG-898 56*, DGX ss2x; Ram Tom Watson 55*, DGX ss2x; Wilson Staff PMP 58*, DGS; PM Grind 19 58*, stock shaft Putter: Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34"; Ping Scottsdale TR Craz-E, 35"; Cleveland Huntington Beach 1, 35" Ball: Wilson Staff Duo Professional, Bridgestone Tour B-RXS, Callaway Chrome Soft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsecor Posted February 15, 2020 Share Posted February 15, 2020 5 hours ago, NRJyzr said: Probably, yes. Just think the 20+ yards that are due to the average swingspeed increase are a far bigger piece of the puzzle than the half club from a golf ball switch. Which was actually available previously, if anyone had cared to try. Not sure why everyone just *had* to switch when Tiger won the US Open with the Tour Accuracy. It's not like the ball was the reason he won by 15. LOL yea...but when you see tiger taking down a course like he did and the extra length Titleist brought to the table (tigers ball made by Bridgestone with a nike swoosh)...it puts the masses on alert.....people freak out year to year over a much smaller gains then that, so i understand it. Its crazy that for sure. You made a lot of good points along the way, so thanks for showing me a different view of it. Quote Golf is cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZenGolfer Posted February 15, 2020 Share Posted February 15, 2020 Interesting pod, although everyone seemed to certainly have a very anti USGA/R&A attitude about the whole thing and really didnt even seem like they were open to any kind of real conversation or debate about the issue. I still stand by the belief that if you reduce driver clubhead sizes (maybe only 300cc), it would put a premium back on hitting the center of the clubface and these players wouldnt be able to just swing as hard as they cant and not worry about if they miss the middle a bit. I also like the idea of growing up the rough and fairways and making the greens harder and faster. Growing the rough would penalize misses more and make bomb and gouge a less appealing tactic. I also think that growing the fairways would reduce roll and that making the greens harder/faster would make it much more difficult to hit the green with a driver or FW in your hands. The problem is, thats not what people want to watch. No one wants to watch these guys struggle to make pars, they want to see birdies or eagles on every hole and winning scores that are -20. Quote "I suppose its better to be a master of 7 than to be vaguely familiar with 14." - Chick Evans Whats in my Sun Mountain 2.5+ stand bag? Woods: Tommy Armour Atomic 10.5* Hybrid: Mizuno MP Fli-Hi 3H Irons: Mizuno T-Zoid True 5, 7 and 9-irons Wedge: Mizuno S18 54* and Top Flite chipper Putter: Mizuno Bettinardi A-02 Ball: Maxfli Tour X Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.