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Do wide soles hold you back?


bonvivantva

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42 minutes ago, TR1PTIK said:

Welcome to life in 2020. Everyone wants to give you their opinion without trying to identify and relate with what it is you're saying because doing so requires too much of their time and attention.

To be clear (and fair to my fellow spies) this is not not an MGS problem, but a much larger societal issue.

 

... Threads always take on a life of their own. Questions raise answers that can create other questions and comments. Every answer is not geared directly toward the OP and I think that is a good thing on an open forum. How many replies do you need for "Do wide sole irons hold you back?"  The easy and is "No, of course not." Yet, reality is always personal and hence the expounding on this subject. And MGS is not Facebook where people read the headlines not the story and post comments unrelated to the actual text, which is one of the reasons I love it here. 

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The widest soles I’ve ever gamed (Cleveland HB Irons) are among my favorite of all time. Actually I wouldn’t mind bagging them again 🏌️♂️


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14 hours ago, bonvivantva said:

I agree that one can improve regardless of their clubs.  At this point it just feels like people are responding without reading.

For three years I've been working very diligently (though ineffectively) on one task.  Fixing my path.  I assure you I haven't been lazy or unwilling.  I've spent tons of time and money on range balls and lessons.  If y'all had read my post, you'd have seen that I have since fixed the issue that was holding me back.  The post wasn't about fixing the issue.  It was about rather or not you agree that forgiving clubs can stymie improvement.  In my case, I believe they did.  I'm wondering my my experience can be generalized, or help others.  I'm not really looking to argue with people who purport to know my swing, or make assumptions about me.  

Nobody is making assumptions about you. Everyone is speaking in terms of generality about causes and effects.

1) you asked if wide soles or even forgiving clubs hold somebody back. The answer is no. Examples were given that low hdcp players use more forgiving clubs

2) you stated that your path issue you were able to fix or that you had a better patch with the les forgiving clubs because they penalized you more. It was stated that the type of club doesn’t affect path unless the club itself due to some design issue causes the person (not specifically you) to get out of sequence. And that some golfers(again not specifically you) get lazy with swing knowing the club will help offset swing issues due to its size and forgiveness 

3) it was stated by several that yes a wider sole and/or larger head may not fit every golfer but doesn’t mean others can’t benefit from it. 
 

This is a good forum and discussions and debates are open and good but at times some topics get on the wrong track, which this thread hasn’t and the ones that do the mods here do a good job of squashing it and they haven’t had to do that here. 

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16 hours ago, bonvivantva said:

I agree that one can improve regardless of their clubs.  At this point it just feels like people are responding without reading.

For three years I've been working very diligently (though ineffectively) on one task.  Fixing my path.  I assure you I haven't been lazy or unwilling.  I've spent tons of time and money on range balls and lessons.  If y'all had read my post, you'd have seen that I have since fixed the issue that was holding me back.  The post wasn't about fixing the issue.  It was about rather or not you agree that forgiving clubs can stymie improvement.  In my case, I believe they did.  I'm wondering my my experience can be generalized, or help others.  I'm not really looking to argue with people who purport to know my swing, or make assumptions about me.  

I've read all of your posts and all the replies.  The answer is simply...NO, forgiving clubs will NOT stymie your improving.  Simple as that. 

 

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8 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Nobody is making assumptions about you. Everyone is speaking in terms of generality about causes and effects.

1) you asked if wide soles or even forgiving clubs hold somebody back. The answer is no. Examples were given that low hdcp players use more forgiving clubs

2) you stated that your path issue you were able to fix or that you had a better patch with the les forgiving clubs because they penalized you more. It was stated that the type of club doesn’t affect path unless the club itself due to some design issue causes the person (not specifically you) to get out of sequence. And that some golfers(again not specifically you) get lazy with swing knowing the club will help offset swing issues due to its size and forgiveness 

3) it was stated by several that yes a wider sole and/or larger head may not fit every golfer but doesn’t mean others can’t benefit from it. 
 

This is a good forum and discussions and debates are open and good but at times some topics get on the wrong track, which this thread hasn’t and the ones that do the mods here do a good job of squashing it and they haven’t had to do that here. 

If you go back and look at the responses, I think you can find at least one example of assumptions being made...

I'm not complaining about the forum, but when I say that I broke my 9i during a lesson and then everyone is talking about how I need to talk lessons, talk to a professional, talk to an instructor, I can't say that's particularly helpful.

One last (hopefully) point.  I'm not suggesting that I'm going to stick to thinner sole clubs from here on out.  I do think that the less forgiving clubs gave me the kick in the pants I needed to get over the hump of swinging OTT and chunky.  But now that my path and low point is better, I intend to get fitted (unless I'm just playing out of my mind with my current clubs), and I'll get whatever I hit best.  I'm most interesting in trying the new hot metals due to the MGS review of them, but who knows.  

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8 hours ago, ole gray said:

The widest soles I’ve ever gamed (Cleveland HB Irons) are among my favorite of all time. Actually I wouldn’t mind bagging them again emoji6.png🏌️♂️


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I watched a review once about how they'd help most golfers regardless of ability be more consistent.  I wouldn't be opposed to giving them a go.  Don't care for the look, but you don't judge a book by it's cover.

Edited by bonvivantva
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Titleist 913D2

Ping G2 3W

Ping G2 3H 18*, 4H 22*

Mizuno JPX900

Cleveland CBX 56, 60

Odyssey White Hot RX #2

Snell MTBX

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7 hours ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

I've read all of your posts and all the replies.  The answer is simply...NO, forgiving clubs will NOT stymie your improving.  Simple as that. 

 

That certainly seems to be the consensus.  

I feel like Juror 8, but I don't think I'm ever going to get y'all to Not Guilty.

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On 2/11/2020 at 3:51 PM, bonvivantva said:

I think wide soles help you play OK golf, but I also think they allow you to avoid really fixing your swing.  Thoughts?

I just read the entire thread.  Honestly, there's lots of great insight that's been posted above.  The question, to me, is a bit general, so the answer is "yes, in certain circumstances."

If your problem is making contact with the ground slightly early, then a wider sole will certainly help mitigate this issue.  I play Cobra F8s, they have a bit of a wider sole, and I'm certain that I get away with the ever-so-slightly fat shot.  But if I enter the ground an inch behind the ball, I'm still laying the sod over it.  I don't know if an ultra-wide sole club like the Launcher HB provide even more relief from the fat shot.  I'd imagine they do, but I'd also think that there's a limit to the relief they can provide.  Maybe they let you get away with hitting an inch behind it but not two inches.

I know you're asking if wide soles let you "avoid really fixing your swing," but it's easy to read that as they "keep you from fixing your swing," and that's an incorrect statement.  You didn't make that statement, but it's also not a huge leap to get to that point.  If you play wide soled irons and you're worried about where you're impacting the ground, you can spray paint a line on the ground perpendicular to your target and hit the ball from it.  If your divot is behind the line, you hit it fat, even if you got away with it.  Shout out to Adam Young for that drill.    

Swinging over the top will not, in and of itself, lead to fat shots.  Some very good players have an over the top swing.  Like Craig and Kevin Stadler.

golf-tours-news-blogs-local-knowledge-bl

 

On 2/12/2020 at 10:58 AM, bonvivantva said:

I took a lesson in early December, and I planned to continue.  That lesson was actually when I broke my old 9i.  Right after I got handed those thinner soled clubs, and suddenly I lost 20 yards or so of distance.  Think about how important feedback is to improving.  When I came over the top and chunky, I saw 140 max (maybe 125-130 average) with the 7i.  A good path and hitting the ball first was giving me over 150 every time.  That's a big obvious difference and I really think these less forgiving clubs forced and allowed me to improve path and low point in a way that my old clubs did not.

You're changing multiple variables here (taking lessons and changing clubs).  Making multiple changes can be the fastest way to improve, but it does make it difficult to conclusively determine whether the improvement is due to the lessons or the clubs.  But what's more important to you - getting better faster, or knowing exactly why you're getting better?  I can't answer that for you, but I know that all I care about is getting better, and I want to do it sooner rather than later.  The "why" is secondary to me.  Thinking too much about my golf swing gets me in trouble.  It might be really important to you.

The statement:

Quote

That's a big obvious difference and I really think these less forgiving clubs forced and allowed me to improve path and low point in a way that my old clubs did not.

Is a statement that many people here are going to take issue with, because it's certainly possible to improve swing path playing GI/SGI irons.  Too many times we've heard people say that the best way to get better is to play clubs that are more difficult to hit, and the data doesn't back it up.

 

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14 hours ago, HardcoreLooper said:

I just read the entire thread.  Honestly, there's lots of great insight that's been posted above.  The question, to me, is a bit general, so the answer is "yes, in certain circumstances."

If your problem is making contact with the ground slightly early, then a wider sole will certainly help mitigate this issue.  I play Cobra F8s, they have a bit of a wider sole, and I'm certain that I get away with the ever-so-slightly fat shot.  But if I enter the ground an inch behind the ball, I'm still laying the sod over it.  I don't know if an ultra-wide sole club like the Launcher HB provide even more relief from the fat shot.  I'd imagine they do, but I'd also think that there's a limit to the relief they can provide.  Maybe they let you get away with hitting an inch behind it but not two inches.

I know you're asking if wide soles let you "avoid really fixing your swing," but it's easy to read that as they "keep you from fixing your swing," and that's an incorrect statement.  You didn't make that statement, but it's also not a huge leap to get to that point.  If you play wide soled irons and you're worried about where you're impacting the ground, you can spray paint a line on the ground perpendicular to your target and hit the ball from it.  If your divot is behind the line, you hit it fat, even if you got away with it.  Shout out to Adam Young for that drill.    

Swinging over the top will not, in and of itself, lead to fat shots.  Some very good players have an over the top swing.  Like Craig and Kevin Stadler.

golf-tours-news-blogs-local-knowledge-bl

 

You're changing multiple variables here (taking lessons and changing clubs).  Making multiple changes can be the fastest way to improve, but it does make it difficult to conclusively determine whether the improvement is due to the lessons or the clubs.  But what's more important to you - getting better faster, or knowing exactly why you're getting better?  I can't answer that for you, but I know that all I care about is getting better, and I want to do it sooner rather than later.  The "why" is secondary to me.  Thinking too much about my golf swing gets me in trouble.  It might be really important to you.

The statement:

Is a statement that many people here are going to take issue with, because it's certainly possible to improve swing path playing GI/SGI irons.  Too many times we've heard people say that the best way to get better is to play clubs that are more difficult to hit, and the data doesn't back it up.

 

You make a lot of good points.  I think I probably should have titled the thread, "CAN wide soles hold you back?"  That is an important distinction that I failed to make.  I'm not saying forgiving clubs hold everyone back, but I am saying I feel like they held me back in a specific way at a specific point in my progress.  I'm also not saying that gaming forgiving clubs was an impossible roadblock for me, or others, that'd be crazy.  I think they're best for most, and I do intend to get some when I get new irons.  It was really more about vanity and the loss of 20ish yards when switching to thinner soled clubs that caused me to really figure out my swing.  

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On 2/13/2020 at 8:39 PM, bonvivantva said:

I watched a review once about how they'd help most golfers regardless of ability be more consistent.  I wouldn't be opposed to giving them a go.  Don't care for the look, but you don't judge a book by it's cover.

I was fortunate enough to be one of the reviewers for the Cleveland Launcher HB Irons.  My co reviewer @Wedgie (who is a single digit capper) was just as impressed as I was.  You can check out the reviews here:  

 

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I feel like they do.  Ive never really got along with irons with really wide soles because I always felt like it was difficult for me to make good contact on a tight lie and that there was more turf interaction.

Ive always really wanted to love irons with wide soles because they are supposedly so forgiving but Ive never found a set that I really loved.  My TA Atomics are probably the closest thing to it and even then, it took me a while to adjust to them and they are really more what I would call mid-width soles.

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40 minutes ago, ZenGolfer said:

I feel like they do.  Ive never really got along with irons with really wide soles because I always felt like it was difficult for me to make good contact on a tight lie and that there was more turf interaction.

Ive always really wanted to love irons with wide soles because they are supposedly so forgiving but Ive never found a set that I really loved.  My TA Atomics are probably the closest thing to it and even then, it took me a while to adjust to them and they are really more what I would call mid-width soles.

Like wedges certain soles don’t work well on certain lies and then diggers vs pickers. Have to find a head that works with both swing and course conditions.

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On 2/11/2020 at 12:51 PM, bonvivantva said:

This was a painful thread to read......

I used to play Mizuno MX-17s that had a pretty wide sole. I broke my 9i after about a decade, and started playing my dad's old JPX900s for the time being.  For the past three years, I've been working on an OTT swing path issue.  With the MX-17s, when I was really struggling with path, a 7i might go about 140 yards (10 yards short for me).  I'd be hitting the ball chunky, and leaving it a little short.  The obvious solution is to improve my swing, but I found that quite difficult.  The easier solution was to swing harder and aim a little right.  I'd still chunk, and swinging harder usually mean a loss of control and consistency, but I could gain those 10 yards back. (So the fat shot fix is to swing harder...😉)

With the JPX900s, that didn't work.  They have a visibly narrower sole.  I think that when I swing harder with an OTT chunky swing, the club digs harder and the ball definitely doesn't go farther.  This forced me to fix my path.  There was no other option available.  Either come from the inside or lose 10-20 yards.  So for a week or so I tried restricting my hip turn, slowing my hips, etc., and finally I was able to sway less and rotate my hips differently (less counterclockwise and more along the path line), and something clicked and I started hitting the ball great.  Honestly only two things changed.  I was able to hit the ball more frequently, which I think possibly had the greatest influence on my improvement, but also, those skinnier clubs wouldn't let me cheat so I had no choice but to really fix my path. (I’m curious how you finally came to this conclusion. Like at what point did it occur to you that

What do y'all think?  I think wide soles help you play OK golf, but I also think they allow you to avoid really fixing your swing.  Thoughts?

Well, basically more bounce keeps the club from “digging”. So you get away with less damage from a chunk. But is that really “OK golf”?

No, I don’t think they allow you to avoid fixing your swing. And don’t take this as a “stinky” answer as it’s not meant to be, but I think that thinking that shooting a 105 is OK, vs shooting a 125, is what allows you to avoid really fixing your swing.

im guessing your scoring has improved dramatically with the “new swing” right?

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2/15/2020 at 7:41 PM, Sluggo42 said:

Well, basically more bounce keeps the club from “digging”. So you get away with less damage from a chunk. But is that really “OK golf”?

No, I don’t think they allow you to avoid fixing your swing. And don’t take this as a “stinky” answer as it’s not meant to be, but I think that thinking that shooting a 105 is OK, vs shooting a 125, is what allows you to avoid really fixing your swing.

im guessing your scoring has improved dramatically with the “new swing” right?

 

I haven't been able to play much this season yet.  Just got back from a vacation and I played 9 on a full length course.  I had a lot of really nice shots, but I'd say more or less I feel into old habits.  My sequence was off and I was chunky, probably because I was rushing some, so I scored about my usual on 9.  I was also helping a first timer, so that probably affected my game some as well.

I did stick an island green on 18 into the wind which was fun, and I hit a shot out of an ice cream consistency bunker about 85 yards and put it about 5 feet from the hole.  I know this is going to sound crazy, but I didn't really look at how wide the soles were of the clubs I was playing.  I think they were M4s.  I do remember the grips feeling very narrow and the clubs feeling very light overall.

 

I agree with 105 vs 125.  One is bad, one is so bad you'd get laughed off the course.  I'm not saying anyone should be happy with 105, but you can get paired with someone that plays at a reasonable speed, shoots a 105, and not be bothered.  It's OK golf.  Not something to aspire to, but something it's a little too easy to get comfortable with.

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Ping G2 3H 18*, 4H 22*

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Cleveland CBX 56, 60

Odyssey White Hot RX #2

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  • 2 weeks later...

This seems to go against the grain but IMO the super wide soled SGI clubs can prevent you from getting better only because it allows you to get away with being a sweeper. I think this is really just another way of saying that practicing with blades makes you better. I’m not convinced that’s necessarily true either although it will make you hit down in the ball and take a proper divot so there’s something to be said for that. Again, this is just my know-nothing amateur opinion but a wide soled non-wedge makes hitting an iron “properly” significantly more difficult and at some point in your golf career not being able to do that will probably hold you back. As a side note, that’s what I like most about playing blades. With that leading edge I can take a 1 inch deep beaver pelt divot and not even feel the club going thru the turf.

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On ‎2‎/‎11‎/‎2020 at 2:51 PM, bonvivantva said:

  I was able to hit the ball more frequently, which I think possibly had the greatest influence on my improvement, but also, those skinnier clubs wouldn't let me cheat so I had no choice but to really fix my path.

What do y'all think?  I think wide soles help you play OK golf, but I also think they allow you to avoid really fixing your swing.  Thoughts?

I had a wicked banana slice on every golf club I touched when I first started. It was like a curse.

Swing path issues must be fixed first and no golf club will help those. I used a friends draw biased driver and seemed to curve that even more to the right.

To me clubs aren't the answer, practice and good swing path is.

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