WGC Mexico

[RickyBobby_PR]

It’s funny how people/things are perceived. Yesterday’s round dechambeau’s group were on 18 and the last group was a hole behind them. I don’t recall dechambeau’s group being that far behind it at all from the group in front of them.

[sixcat]

35 minutes ago, Mr. 82 said:

DeChambeau's group on Saturday, which included Patrick Reed and Erik van Rooyen, was put on the clock.  Both Reed and van Rooyen were seen exiting the green late in the round, while they were on the clock, and walking to the next tee, while DeChambeau was still using his protractor around the green while he putted out.

I kid about the protractor, but the overall issue remains.  DeChambeau is very slow, and now he's causing his entire group to be on the clock, which now affects his playing partner's games.  Perhaps it's why van Rooyen didn't play very well on Saturday, because DeChambeau was slow playing him (and Reed) to death.

This issue isn't going away anytime soon, because he continues to be a problem with his pace of play.  Perhaps if what I heard from the announcers on Saturday with regards to there being pace of play changes implemented, starting at Harbor Town in April, will correct this problem once and for all.  But I will wait patiently to see if anything changes.

Something was definitely different for Bryson after being placed on the clock Saturday and a full hole ahead on Sunday.  The thing that struck me was that Bryson appeared to play much quicker Sunday and played excellent golf.  Maybe he should speed up his routine more often.

[StrokerAce]

Get your  out !!
 

 

 

[fixyurdivot]

My offer to take PREED and all the negative vibes that go along with having him on their roster still stands. Let's make a deal. 

[Mr. 82]

1 hour ago, GolfSpy Stroker said:

Get your  out !!
 

 

 

I was going to create an entirely new thread to discuss integrity and accountability within the game of golf, but I honestly just can't bring myself to do it.  Perhaps it's posts like this where Kostis is mocked for pointing out past issues with Patrick Reed, and regular folks using all of this to equate cheating with increasing your bank account as an acceptable thing to do.

Frankly, if more people did what Koepka and Kostis did, and brought more pressure and shame onto the likes of Reed, then perhaps regular folks wouldn't feel so inclined as to mock and belittle those who are attempting to uphold some semblance of integrity and accountability within the game of golf.

Personally speaking, it's incredibly frustrating for me, because as I've sort of made my own personal quote recently in saying this...

Quote

I'd rather have 12 friends, then $100 extra in my bank account.

My quote refers to a known "sandbagger" at my club, and the fact that he's won several tournaments by padding his handicap to then goes out and play lights out when serious money is on the line.

Sandbagging aside, for me personally, integrity and accountability are much more important than winning a golf tournament or making a million dollars.  And if that means I never win a tournament, or never make any money playing golf, then so be it.  But what really bothers me honestly is not the person who knowingly cheats getting away with it (for the most part) or using a pace of play tactic to disrupt the rhythm and games of others around him, but the people who seemingly mock the people who call out the cheating and other crimes and belittle those that stand for integrity and accountability in the game of golf, and in life.  It's one thing for people to get away with their crimes, but it's another for others to glorify the crimes and essentially endorse them.

That truly does beg the question of where someone's character really is?

Edited February 24, 2020 by Mr. 82

[tony@CIC]

While we're talking about the WGC I was really disappointed in the coverage on Sunday afternoon. There was so much background noise , you couldn't hear the announcers, ended up turning it off when Reed's group was on #16. Not being a B.A.D. fan I missed the best part. 

[StrokerAce]

1 minute ago, tony@CIC said:

While we're talking about the WGC I was really disappointed in the coverage on Sunday afternoon. There was so much background noise , you couldn't hear the announcers, ended up turning it off when Reed's group was on #16. Not being a B.A.D. fan I missed the best part. 

Seems like this year it's a race to the bottom between NBC, CBS and the Golf Channel.  Can Fox be the savior?

About the only tournament I watch from beginning to end for all 4 days is The Masters.  Other than that it's hard to stomach the rest of them.

[tony@CIC]

27 minutes ago, GolfSpy Stroker said:

Seems like this year it's a race to the bottom between NBC, CBS and the Golf Channel.  Can Fox be the savior?

About the only tournament I watch from beginning to end for all 4 days is The Masters.  Other than that it's hard to stomach the rest of them.

And it seems like there are more commercials this year. Maybe my imagination but more commercials than coverage. 

[revkev]

I did watch the final round yesterday starting after the UConn basketball game was over -

I knew that Reed's win would bring additional discussion - I'm worn out by the cheating stuff that is plaguing my two favorite sports but I do have an observation or question as to everyone else's opinion.  Do you think that JT made a big deal about his drop and the ball moving because he was playing with Reed?  It was after all a no brainer that there was no penalty involved according to rules that are now over a year old and well vetted - Just something that I thought about as I was watching. 

 

Also I'm with Sixcat on the matter of Bryson's pace of play - his group was over a hole ahead of Reed's group by the end of the round - granted Thomas was all over the course all day but I did think that was interesting.  These WGC events are like mini-Masters - let the top players in, eliminate and dilute the rest of the field and you are going to have topflight players at the top of the leader board come Sunday - it's a brilliant format - of course they don't have the course or the tradition but still it's very watchable.  I almost never watch the final round of the Masters because I'm generally playing golf - its towards the end of our good weather and I hate to miss out on that - I will watch it this year as it falls on Easter and I'll be totally worn out that day (much as I was yesterday.) 

[Golfspy_CG2]

9 minutes ago, revkev said:

I did watch the final round yesterday starting after the UConn basketball game was over -

I knew that Reed's win would bring additional discussion - I'm worn out by the cheating stuff that is plaguing my two favorite sports but I do have an observation or question as to everyone else's opinion.  Do you think that JT made a big deal about his drop and the ball moving because he was playing with Reed?  It was after all a no brainer that there was no penalty involved according to rules that are now over a year old and well vetted - Just something that I thought about as I was watching. 

 

Also I'm with Sixcat on the matter of Bryson's pace of play - his group was over a hole ahead of Reed's group by the end of the round - granted Thomas was all over the course all day but I did think that was interesting.  These WGC events are like mini-Masters - let the top players in, eliminate and dilute the rest of the field and you are going to have topflight players at the top of the leader board come Sunday - it's a brilliant format - of course they don't have the course or the tradition but still it's very watchable.  I almost never watch the final round of the Masters because I'm generally playing golf - its towards the end of our good weather and I hate to miss out on that - I will watch it this year as it falls on Easter and I'll be totally worn out that day (much as I was yesterday.) 

Great point about Thomas and Reed.  I did actually have a thought during that, that if it was Reed in that situation, that a rules official would never have been called.  And if that was the case, wonder if NBC would have gone to the trouble of showing the 2X speed shot of the ball moving?    

Although it seemed to be that Thomas's main concern was the first official used the word "think"  as in  "I think you play it as is"   He didn't want to hear what someone thinks...he wanted to know for sure.   So the call came for good ole Slugger White 

[sixcat]

1 hour ago, revkev said:

Do you think that JT made a big deal about his drop and the ball moving because he was playing with Reed?  It was after all a no brainer that there was no penalty involved according to rules that are now over a year old and well vetted - Just something that I thought about as I was watching. 

Geoff Shackelford wrote a small but interesting piece on this last night.  Everyone agreed there was no penalty.  The confusion centered around whether JT should replace the ball or play it as it lies.  JT asked the original rules official for clarity that, according to the drop rule changes from 2019, the ball was in play, without penalty, and didn't need to be replaced to where it moved from.  The rules official replied "I think!" 

"I think" isn't something I would want to hear from the rules official under those circumstances.  I would have asked for a second opinion as well.

[Kenny B]

Have the WGC events run their course?

Article by Mike Purkey:   https://www.morningread.com/news-opinion/feature/2020-02-23/wgcs-have-run-their-course-on-pga-tour

 

[sixcat]

30 minutes ago, Middler said:

Not sure what you mean here, surely it’s not that DeChambeau’s pace of play is OK. He was on the clock Saturday, in Dubai, at Northern Trust and many other tournaments. It’s well documented how slow DeChambeau (and Holmes) are - and they should be judged on their overall pace, not a good day here and there...

To Bryson's credit, he played significantly quicker on Sunday and was well over a hole ahead by the time his group reached the 18th green.  Give credit where credit is due.    

[sixcat]

10 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

Have the WGC events run their course?

Article by Mike Purkey:   https://www.morningread.com/news-opinion/feature/2020-02-23/wgcs-have-run-their-course-on-pga-tour

 

I saw this earlier and thought it was an interesting read.  I have felt from the very beginning, the WGC's were a "knee jerk reaction" to what Greg Norman was proposing in the 90's.  They are "contrived" and have never felt genuine in any form or fashion.  And to be honest, there is very little of the "World" involved. 

I watched the interview Rick Shiels did with Andy Gardiner over the weekend.  I am intrigued by the PGL concept.  Knowing where the best players in the world will be playing 18 times a year would be great.  Add in roster movement similar to Premier League soccer and the dynamic becomes fascination, in my opinion.  If nothing else, maybe the threat will cause the PGA Tour and its broadcast partners to raise their game quite a bit.

[RickyBobby_PR]

7 minutes ago, Middler said:

That’s fine, but he should be judged by his overall pace performance, and that’s documented not good.

It’s like any other rule in golf and pros use the rules to their advantage. Being put on the clock is a warning, player speeds up then gets off the clock and a they can do it again at any point and go thru the process all over and never get a penalty. Until then money dictates there’s a problem nothing will change. Unless he’s out on the clock every round of every tournament it’s not really a true problem for him. Also circumstances during a round could be a cause.

[sixcat]

That’s fine, but he should be judged by his overall pace performance, and that’s documented not good.

Personally, I would hate to be continually judged for the worst aspects of my character. All we can ask of anyone is to learn from past mistakes and improve. Bryson definitely improved on Sunday. He deserves acknowledgment for that!


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[Shankster]

I have an idea.

Maybe when the guys on tour are being jack wagons, smashing up the greens, or “raking the bunkers”... they could pan the camera to a different hole.

No one is perfect, the behavior doesn’t set a good example. But I haven’t been under that amount of pressure I don’t think.

I’m a hot head, and if I were in contention in a major sporting event and I screwed up... I might happy Gilmore a club off into the woods.

We should be better critics of ourselves sometimes.

Another reason social media is inherently bad. Much like normal “news” the bad stuff always takes the highlight reels from these “news outlets” making a huge spectacle about it.

Much like the dudes on Instagram jumping a cart over a sand trap... that is better off deleted from anyone’s news feed.

[tony@CIC]

Personally, I would hate to be continually judged for the worst aspects of my character. All we can ask of anyone is to learn from past mistakes and improve. Bryson definitely improved on Sunday. He deserves acknowledgment for that!


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

While not a fan of B.A.D. I give him a lot of credit for going over to Reed to congratulate him.


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[bens197]

Personally, I would hate to be continually judged for the worst aspects of my character. All we can ask of anyone is to learn from past mistakes and improve. Bryson definitely improved on Sunday. He deserves acknowledgment for that!


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

This right here

Taking jabs at these guys is so easy. I’d love to hear people discuss the good he’s done. In 2018 he won the long drive contest at the PGA and donated all $25k to the family of Jarrod Lyle.

Bryson is different and in this world, different is always an easy target for criticism.

[Golfspy_CG2]

1 hour ago, Shankster said:

Much like the dudes on Instagram jumping a cart over a sand trap... that is better off deleted from anyone’s news feed.

Thank you for this.  Even before I worked at a course I didn't find these funny. 

Now that I've seen for 5 years how hard our Super and his crew work to provide the best conditions they can for play.   Well I don't want to say what I truly think about these videos.  I might violate a moral code or two

[Shankster]

Thank you for this.  Even before I worked at a course I didn't find these funny. 
Now that I've seen for 5 years how hard our Super and his crew work to provide the best conditions they can for play.   Well I don't want to say what I truly think about these videos.  I might violate a moral code or two

Same here. Nothing good comes of those videos.

[sixcat]

10 hours ago, Shankster said:

Much like the dudes on Instagram jumping a cart over a sand trap... that is better off deleted from anyone’s news feed.

Ironically, many of the same "mashed potatoes" yelling jack-wagons posting videos of jumping carts are the same guys on "Woke Twitter" vehemently pissed off at Bryson and Reed!

[RickyBobby_PR]

12 minutes ago, Middler said:

That’s not what I said. Keeping pace is the exception for DeChambeau, he’s more often playing slow according to numerous sources for years. In your work, your appraisal is based on your most common performance as it should be, not the good exceptions. If your “worst aspects” are the norm, that’s what you should expect to be “judged for.”  I’m looking forward to the day the PGA follows the Euro tour and does something with Holmes, DeChambeau and the other chronic slow players - on behalf of all the other players they force to wait.

As I acknowledged earlier, I’m not a fan of DeChambeau and don’t care for his approach to the game. I watched him  (in person) throw a very childish temper tantrum and then take it out on his caddy at a tournament - I’ve never respected him since that moment.

Don’t hold your breath waiting. The changes coming to the pga tour aren’t going to deter it much. It may make some players change up a little bit but these guys have been accustomed to playing a certain way and like the saying goes “the tiger can’t change his stripes”

With the changes being to time a person and not a group that may be what gets some of these guys to speed up a bit but the rule still seems to have leeway in it that gives the pga tour an out for not fining someone.

The difference between the pga tour and euro tour is popularity. The tv money drives what the tours do and with 4-5 hours of tv time for most events the tour can get tee times setup so that the last group finishes around the end of coverage to allow slow play to not affect the tv time. 

[Mr. 82]

16 hours ago, revkev said:

I knew that Reed's win would bring additional discussion - I'm worn out by the cheating stuff that is plaguing my two favorite sports but I do have an observation or question as to everyone else's opinion.  Do you think that JT made a big deal about his drop and the ball moving because he was playing with Reed?  It was after all a no brainer that there was no penalty involved according to rules that are now over a year old and well vetted - Just something that I thought about as I was watching. 

My perspective on JT's delay to get a rules official is that he was playing CYA with the drop.  He saw the ball move, and wanted to have someone just check with him to make sure he was ok.  How many situations have we seen where said player goes about their business on something like that, only to end up in the scoring trailer at the end of the round with that situation playing on an endless loop for them and then they are assessed a 2 stroke penalty after the fact because a TV camera with a telephoto slo-mo lens saw the ball move a fraction of a centimeter only visible to the player and that camera lens.  I don't blame JT for being proactive in this case and getting a rules official to give him a ruling either way.  But yeah, the rest of us on the course don't need to go through that, because we know what we saw and what the ruling is, but we don't have to worry about TV cameras and the entire world then reacting to the TV and making much ado about nothing.

Edited February 25, 2020 by Mr. 82

[sixcat]

42 minutes ago, Middler said:

That’s not what I said. Keeping pace is the exception for DeChambeau, he’s more often playing slow according to numerous sources for years. In your work, your appraisal is based on your most common performance as it should be, not the good exceptions. If your “worst aspects” are the norm, that’s what you should expect to be “judged for.”  I’m looking forward to the day the PGA follows the Euro tour and does something with Holmes, DeChambeau and the other chronic slow players - on behalf of all the other players they force to wait.

As I acknowledged earlier, I’m not a fan of DeChambeau and don’t care for his approach to the game. I watched him  (in person) throw a very childish temper tantrum and then take it out on his caddy at a tournament - I’ve never respected him since that moment.

For the record, I don't particularly care for Bryson either.  What I can do, is give credit where it is due.  After being placed on the clock on Saturday, he sped up significantly Sunday and played better golf in the process.  If we're quick to condemn for negative behavior, we should be equally as quick to praise when noticeable change occurs.  Maybe he goes back to old patterns, maybe this is the beginning of permanent change.  Either way, he deserves some credit for Sunday just as much as he deserves contempt for Saturday.

As for the "employment" analogy, Bryson is an independent contractor.  The PGA Tour is a member owned, member run organization.  If the Tour wanted a change in certain behavior, the impetus is squarely on the players to effect such change!

To use an analogy of my own.  Should the police officer you drove past this morning give you a ticket for speeding last Wednesday?  Does speeding last Wednesday equate to habitual behavior you are incapable of correcting?  When corrective behavior does occur and you change your driving habits, should you still be stalked by the police department?  Food for thought!

[RickyBobby_PR]

48 minutes ago, Middler said:

^^^ We simply disagree, no biggie. When DeChambeau starts keeping up regularly, I’ll be happy to acknowledge. Not one example just after he’s been disciplined.

What about the tournaments where he was never put on the clock? Do those not count because the announcers didn’t talk about it?

I’m betting the number of times he’s been out on the clock is relatively low compared to the number of rounds played 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 minute ago, Middler said:

If you choose to overlook...

• all the times he has been put on the clock (something officials are loathe to do, and most players have never been put on the clock)
• all the tournaments where commentators and analysts have shown examples
• and the fellow touring pros who have stepped up and called out DeChambeau for taking far too long

...and give him the benefit of the doubt with no data, thats your choice. I don’t discount they’re views in favor of an unsubstantiated POV. 

He has over 400 rounds played since turning pro. Of that how many times has he been put on the clock and of that how many times has he been put on the clock more than once in a round?

I’m not saying he isn’t slow, or slower than most pros on tour but there are defined rules for when a player is put on the clock and subsequently penalized. I would bet the number of rounds he’s been placed on the clock would be under 10%. Is that a problem? for those looking to bash him about being slow more than likely. 
 

The rules are there and even guys that aren’t known for slow play occasionally get put on the clock.