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Blades vs. Game Improvement - Where's the Data?


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3 hours ago, McaseyM said:

I thik it'll depend on what one thinks makes them a "better" golfer. For me, it's the objective score. As subjective as everything is with feel, sound and looks, it all comes down to your true final score, no mulligans, no gimmes, counting penalties true:  how many actual strokes it took for you to get the ball from the tee-box into the cup each hole. If I'm playing a match against someone with my GI irons adn higher launching shafts and more forgiving wedges and they have blades and I beat them, then that day, to me,  I am the better golfer. You can work the ball this way and that all you want, but if you can't put it all together for an entire round from tee-box to green, then it doesn't really matter.

That is what makes golf such a funny game---- I have had days when I hit the ball great and could not make a putt--- Then I have had days where I could not hit a green or fairway and the wedges and putter bailed me out. And a whole lot of the equipment thing is how one utilizes the high launch shafts etc. The old timers call it knowing how to golf your ball. 

Driver ---- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha  Speeder 565 R flex- 5W TM V-Steel Fubuki 60r--- 7W TM V-Steel UST Pro Force Gold 65R----- 9 W TM V Steel TM MAS stiff---- Irons 2015 TM TP CB Steel Fiber 95 R--- GW Callaway Mack Daddy 2 52* shaft unknown junk pile refugee. SW Callaway PM Grind 56*  Modified sole grind--- KBS Tour Wedge-- LW Vokey 58* SM5 L grind--- Putter Ping B90I Broom Stick 

 

 

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5 hours ago, chisag said:

 

... Exactly Big'un. Us old timers that have been around the game a long time also know this game is 75% mental and the other 50% is mental. 😳  Obviously if you have an open mind, you will find which clubs work best for your swing and your ability. Of course if you are already predisposed to love MB's because you think they will make you a better ball striker, there is a very good chance they will. And if you think GI's will improve your mishits allowing you to swing freer and hit the center more often, there is a very good chance they will. 
 

... We grew up either learning to work the ball or attempting to minimize the balls movement. Meaning we either purposefully played a draw or a fade or we tried to minimize our hook or slice. Balata balls, thin soled MB's and persimmon woods were gonna move and it was just about impossible to hit a straight shot. Todays equipment almost all just want to go high and straight, so the younger generation grew up playing a different game. We learned accuracy and then added distance. They grew up learning distance and then added accuracy. The 3 sets that I play cover the entire spectrum. Long and straight low spin P790's, mid length and workable mid spin P760's, high spin and shorter but ultimately workable and accurate Z Forged. You can find anything you want with todays equipment and clearly there is no one size fits all.

You have known me long enough to know I never considered myself a ball striker or a shot maker for that matter. I guess I am sorta in the middle. I basically play off of instinct and feel. Way back in my 20s when I was getting young and strong I had a rope hook problem due to fast swing and hands. I basically self corrected myself with opening up my left side and developing my outside in swing. Believe it or not I absolutely can not play golf hitting the ball straight. If I absolutely have to I can draw the ball but I do not trust it. As you know on today's balls they are aerodynamically fixed for less side spin etc. Good case in point the Bridgestone E-6. I knew the Bstone rep here and he gave me a couple of sample packs of the E-6. I played them one day for about 12 holes or so. Could not cut them. They hit fine but I could not cut them. Switched back to a Pro V because I thought it was me. It was not it was the tricked up ball. The rep laughed and told everyone if I could not cut it no one could.  On the brain part you are 110% correct I fear the rope hook worse than most fear the shanks. Even though my old man was a pro and instructor I developed my own way of doing things right or wrong for me. I have a varying degree of cut and that is not due to swing changes but I do it by manipulating the face of the club. Most of the face manipulating is pure instinct since I have done it so long. Like I have said before I do not believe anyone could teach what I do swing wise and really I would not recommend anyone trying it and it would also go for the equipment I play. 

Driver ---- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha  Speeder 565 R flex- 5W TM V-Steel Fubuki 60r--- 7W TM V-Steel UST Pro Force Gold 65R----- 9 W TM V Steel TM MAS stiff---- Irons 2015 TM TP CB Steel Fiber 95 R--- GW Callaway Mack Daddy 2 52* shaft unknown junk pile refugee. SW Callaway PM Grind 56*  Modified sole grind--- KBS Tour Wedge-- LW Vokey 58* SM5 L grind--- Putter Ping B90I Broom Stick 

 

 

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On 2/25/2020 at 1:34 PM, chisag said:

 

... Honestly ballplayer, I don't think it is the golf community as much as talking to yourself. I have been paired up with strangers that have admired my game or score waaaaaaaay more than anyone that admired my clubs. It has been my experience that about 95% not only don't care what I am playing, they don't even notice. When it comes to my ego, I find it more rewarding to hear "great shot!" much more than "nice sticks!" Not once in my life has anyone ever said something like  "You hit your 5 iron 193yds with a beautiful high trajectory that was right at the flag, hopped and stopped right next to it for a 1 foot birdie putt! Just think how much more rewarding that would have been if you used an MB instead of your P790!" 😳  I just don't understand the desire to play any club that penalizes your ability to hit your best shots and post your lowest score. (Of course this doesn't apply to those that really don't care about score and play clubs for the sheer enjoyment of hitting them) 

For me honestly I guess my enjoyment of the game is different now since I have retired from comps and big money matches. But inside I am still a competitive person and you can bet the farm on that. If I am playing with one of the groups I play with I am trying to win period. If playing the Saturday morning scramble at my new home club I am trying to win. So I am going to play with my front line stuff. Lately for me it's been the forged CB KZGs. Even though the lofts are the same as my Macs right now I am getting a little more out of them and they being Kyoei forged have a great feel. Spring and summer I will more than likely switch back to the Macs. Now on the other hand if I play tomorrow afternoon I will more than likely play one of the blade sets with persimmon. Even playing the vintage golf I am in competition with myself and will try to go as low as I can go. But on the other hand if I do not go low I still enjoy the feel of the old blades and persimmon. Sometimes I challenge myself on my 5 club walking rounds ( again playing vintage with maybe a couple of hickories thrown in) I challenge myself by creating shots with limited clubs. So for me I create a challenge no matter the type of golf I am playing. And I feel when playing the dogfight I owe it to my partners or team to play the best equipment. Since quitting comps etc my perspective on the game has changed. One of my goals this year since retirement is a month away is to get out of the truck off my butt walk and lose weight so I can walk 18 again. I love my walking rounds with vintage equipment. Right now I can walk about 4 holes or so. 

Driver ---- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha  Speeder 565 R flex- 5W TM V-Steel Fubuki 60r--- 7W TM V-Steel UST Pro Force Gold 65R----- 9 W TM V Steel TM MAS stiff---- Irons 2015 TM TP CB Steel Fiber 95 R--- GW Callaway Mack Daddy 2 52* shaft unknown junk pile refugee. SW Callaway PM Grind 56*  Modified sole grind--- KBS Tour Wedge-- LW Vokey 58* SM5 L grind--- Putter Ping B90I Broom Stick 

 

 

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There is an interview with Rocco on that other site that was really cool to hear. Rocco has always played more forgiving irons in his career (Cally X12s to X22s) but he always practices with blades. His theory is as long as he can hit a draw the clubs are for him. Was also a plus on his thoughts on driver spin.


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I’ve unofficially tried this and while I’m still somewhat on the fence, I’m leaning towards this one being false. If you’re not finding center and don’t know where your miss is, buy a $20 roll of impact tape and practice with your gamers - you’ll get better results. I will say that as a mid handicapper I could bag blades (and have) and be able to get around the course just fine although my scores would not be as good, so play what you want. For me the game is way more fun playing my old XR Pros. 

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22 minutes ago, PuffyC said:

I’ve unofficially tried this and while I’m still somewhat on the fence, I’m leaning towards this one being false. If you’re not finding center and don’t know where your miss is, buy a $20 roll of impact tape and practice with your gamers - you’ll get better results. I will say that as a mid handicapper I could bag blades (and have) and be able to get around the course just fine although my scores would not be as good, so play what you want. For me the game is way more fun playing my old XR Pros. 

Or save $15 and buy some foot spray 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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  • 3 weeks later...

I don't have any data but over the last 30 years I've played just about everything under the sun. All I know is I can shoot a 78 with blades or Ping G series. I can also shoot a 92 with either. For me, it's all about keeping the ball in play and no 3 putts.

Ping G430 Driver, 19° Hybrid, Ping Anser 23° Hybrid, Mizuno 923 Hot Metal 6-GW, Ping 54°&58° Glides, Scotty Cameron 5.5

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I dont think that blade vs CB matters anywhere near as much as people make it out.  At the end of the day, its still just a hunk of metal on the end of the stick, does it really matter that much what the back of the clubhead looks like?  Do you really think that if the back side of the head is scooped out vs one that has more meat on the bottom half on the head really matters?

IMO, its all marketing and no matter if its a blade or a CB, a bad swing is never going to give you great golf shots with either.

"I suppose its better to be a master of 7 than to be vaguely familiar with 14." - Chick Evans

Whats in my Sun Mountain 2.5+ stand bag?

Woods: Tommy Armour Atomic 10.5* 

Hybrid: Mizuno MP Fli-Hi 3H

Irons: Mizuno T-Zoid True 5, 7 and 9-irons

Wedge: Mizuno S18 54* and Top Flite chipper

Putter: Mizuno Bettinardi A-02

Ball: Maxfli Tour X

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On 2/25/2020 at 11:17 AM, ballplayer002003 said:

I think we have to take the ego part out of clubs.  Egotistically, when we have blades, we are saying to the golfing community (whoever is on the tee box) that I am a great golfer...maybe so maybe no.  I am gaming the JPX900 forged irons, I tested the PING G410's.  In my mind I am having a hard time egotistically as well.  In my opinion, the Mizuno's are a better club, for a better player (which I WANT TO think I am) but when playing the PING's I had really good results.  So I should be happy to just play the Ping's, but I'm not.  I go back and forth every couple of rounds with the PING's and the Mizuno's to see if one can start to stand out but they don't.  They are both pretty similar.  So it's obviously the person swinging and not the equipment.  Do I want to play blades or a blade look (Miznuo MP20 HMB or the TM760) sure, but simply for the ego side of things.  Do I want the forgiveness of a GI iron absolutely!!!  So really I guess it all boils down to what do you want more, a lower score or someone saying to you, "nice sticks".  

I think you are providing the very data the thread is seeking. The JPX900 were my second choice (fitter said "toss up") and I often wonder whether they would have been a better choice than the G410's.  Part of my rationale for picking the PING's is my age and figuring that a GI iron would work better in the future (not one to change clubs often). I openly admit that I am drawn to the "forged" stamp and the connection with forged blades and low handicap players.  I guess it's just human nature to believe there is something better than what we're gaming.  As I've stated in other threads, my interest in players category irons is more a curiosity as to whether they would offer me improvement that yields lower scoring - something the G410's have definitely done. 

A big part of this discussion revolves around the ball flight "workability" of blades.  I have tested my ability to move the ball left and right, using a couple of MB irons (PING BP's most recent) and able to do so.  But then I step back and ask myself how much value would this ability help my game - I don't think very much in all honesty.  Perhaps that has to do with the courses I play, but I'm seldom standing over a shot and thinking "need a draw or fade".  As for "feel", my experience, albeit limited, is that it is not a factor that I'm able to distinguish in the ball strike.  A flushed G410 feels just as good to me as a flushed BP.

So considering this, why should I even care about playing forged blades?  

:ping-small: G410 Plus, 9 Degree Driver 

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 16 Degree 3w

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 19 Degree 5w

:srixon-small:  ZX5 Irons 4-AW 

:ping-small: Glide 2.0 56 Degree SW   (removed from double secret probation 😍)

:EVNROLL: ER5v Putter  (Evnroll ER5v Official Review)

:odyssey-small: AI-One Milled Seven T CH (Currently Under Product Test)

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

I think you are providing the very data the thread is seeking. The JPX900 were my second choice (fitter said "toss up") and I often wonder whether they would have been a better choice than the G410's.  Part of my rationale for picking the PING's is my age and figuring that a GI iron would work better in the future (not one to change clubs often). I openly admit that I am drawn to the "forged" stamp and the connection with forged blades and low handicap players.  I guess it's just human nature to believe there is something better than what we're gaming.  As I've stated in other threads, my interest in players category irons is more a curiosity as to whether they would offer me improvement that yields lower scoring - something the G410's have definitely done. 

A big part of this discussion revolves around the ball flight "workability" of blades.  I have tested my ability to move the ball left and right, using a couple of MB irons (PING BP's most recent) and able to do so.  But then I step back and ask myself how much value would this ability help my game - I don't think very much in all honesty.  Perhaps that has to do with the courses I play, but I'm seldom standing over a shot and thinking "need a draw or fade".  As for "feel", my experience, albeit limited, is that it is not a factor that I'm able to distinguish in the ball strike.  A flushed G410 feels just as good to me as a flushed BP.

So considering this, why should I even care about playing forged blades?  

I think the Ping's will last you a long time.  They are packed with TONS of tech and are super forgiving.  Like I posted in my videos during the review, the ENTIRE face is hot,  unlike most forged clubs.  I too, don't have a ton of shots that require shaping the ball, however at times I do need to so I take that into account as well.  Enjoy the Ping's, they are a solid stick!!!

   Driver:  :callaway-small: Epic Flash Sub Zero Hzdrs Smoke x flex 70g

3 Wood:  :titelist-small: 917 w/ Diamana Whiteboard stiff

5 Wood : :callaway-small: Epic Flash 18* Hzdrs Smoke stiff

4 Hybrid: image.png.cf6ab25979c6727ff31e6cc6f719636c.png TSi3 Hzdrs Smoke X flex

     Irons:  :callaway-small: 5-7  Apex forged 19 w/ Modus 120 X

                         9-A Apex Pro 19 w/ Modus 120 X

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3 hours ago, Retrogolfer36 said:

I dont think that blade vs CB matters anywhere near as much as people make it out.  At the end of the day, its still just a hunk of metal on the end of the stick, does it really matter that much what the back of the clubhead looks like?  Do you really think that if the back side of the head is scooped out vs one that has more meat on the bottom half on the head really matters?

IMO, its all marketing and no matter if its a blade or a CB, a bad swing is never going to give you great golf shots with either.

 

... I am not trying to be condescending but perhaps if you are a 20 index your ball striking can't tell the difference? There is a reason some of the best ball strikers in the world are using Players Irons and GI's on the LPGA and Champions Tour. Their games resemble most of our games much more than PGA players. MB's sell for a premium and usually much higher than GI's and SGI's that most higher index players can benefit from using so not sure how that is marketing. Reverse marketing maybe? Standing on a tee box hitting to an island green 170yds away the difference between a "scooped out back side" that will land you on the fringe at least when you nervously lift and hit the ball 1" on the toe while a MB will find the water due to the face twisting without the perimeter weighting is pretty obvious. There is a reason most OEMs off a range of irons from MB's to Players To GI and SGI's. Marketing does not and never has promoted one over the other. Fwiw, it has nothing to do with how the back of the club looks but how the back of the club effects performance. Many of the modern irons hide their technology like T100-S, P790, MP-20 HMB and Forged Tech.  

... Two other issues I would like to address... again. Yes, a really bad swing will always result in a really and shot regardless if you are using MB's or SGI's. But aside from the fact that a perimeter weighted iron will make marginal mishits longer and straighter, there are plenty of golfers that need the help from weight very low in the head producing a higher flight that increases carry and overall distance. Or a wide sole to help with their fat shots. Or a thick top line to give them confidence at address. And for the 1,000th time hitting MB's will not improve your ball striking. Paying more attention to your swing, better mechanics and practice will make you a better ball striker and that can be accomplished with any iron including SGI's. I get some that are  mentally undisciplined find MB's stinging their hands or producing worse shots than a SGI will put in the extra work to improve both, but again you can do the same thing with any iron if you have the desire to improve. 

... I don't think anyone can disagree that the look of a beautiful and subtly designed MB is very intoxicating. But in the end the ball really doesn't care what your iron looks like and for those of us trying to shoot the lowest score, that is all that matters. Obviously there are other reasons to play irons than shooting your lowest score and in that case play with the irons that give you the most satisfaction. 

Driver:     :taylormade-small:  Qi10 10.5* ... Ventus Red Velocore 5R
Fairway:  :cobra-small: Aerojet 3/5 ... Kai'li Blue 60R
Hybrids:  :ping-small:      430 Hybrid 22*... Steelfiber 780Hy 
                  :taylormade-small:  DHy #4 ... Diamana LTD 65r 
Irons:       :titleist-small:         '23 T200 5-Pw ... Steelfiber i95r
Wedges:  :taylormade-small: Vokey 50*/54*/58* ... Steelfiber i95r
Putter:     :cobra-small:  Sport-60 33" 
Ball:           Maxfli     Maxfli Tour

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3 hours ago, chisag said:

 

Quote

... I am not trying to be condescending but perhaps if you are a 20 index your ball striking can't tell the difference? There is a reason some of the best ball strikers in the world are using Players Irons and GI's on the LPGA and Champions Tour. Their games resemble most of our games much more than PGA players. MB's sell for a premium and usually much higher than GI's and SGI's that most higher index players can benefit from using so not sure how that is marketing. Reverse marketing maybe? Standing on a tee box hitting to an island green 170yds away the difference between a "scooped out back side" that will land you on the fringe at least when you nervously lift and hit the ball 1" on the toe while a MB will find the water due to the face twisting without the perimeter weighting is pretty obvious. There is a reason most OEMs off a range of irons from MB's to Players To GI and SGI's. Marketing does not and never has promoted one over the other. Fwiw, it has nothing to do with how the back of the club looks but how the back of the club effects performance. Many of the modern irons hide their technology like T100-S, P790, MP-20 HMB and Forged Tech.  

About the 20 index and not being able to tell the difference, Im with you.  About the marketing, its not about the cost its about the notion that CBs are sooooooo much more forgiving.  I personally dont think they are.  People think they are though and golf is such a mental game that if you tell someone the latest and greatest CB is so much more forgiving and they believe it, perhaps it becomes like a self-fufilling prophecy.

About the notion of hitting it off the toe, both balls are going to be in the water.  I know because Ive played both kinds of irons and have been there.

About the notion that marketing has never favored one over the other I completely disagree.  Modern CBs are so marketed, almost to the point of being over-marketed.  Every year we hear how the latest and greatest irons and longer, straighter and more forgiving but we dont hear about blades because most people think they cant play them and wont buy them and because most blade players want irons that are consistent and controllable.  They dont want more distance.
 

Quote

... Two other issues I would like to address... again. Yes, a really bad swing will always result in a really and shot regardless if you are using MB's or SGI's. But aside from the fact that a perimeter weighted iron will make marginal mishits longer and straighter, there are plenty of golfers that need the help from weight very low in the head producing a higher flight that increases carry and overall distance. Or a wide sole to help with their fat shots. Or a thick top line to give them confidence at address. And for the 1,000th time hitting MB's will not improve your ball striking. Paying more attention to your swing, better mechanics and practice will make you a better ball striker and that can be accomplished with any iron including SGI's. I get some that are  mentally undisciplined find MB's stinging their hands or producing worse shots than a SGI will put in the extra work to improve both, but again you can do the same thing with any iron if you have the desire to improve. 

Again, I think its all marketing.  If you miss the sweet spot, perimiter weighting, low COG or a thick topline isnt going to matter.  A fat shot is still going to greatly reduce the distance, a thin shot is still going to result in a worm-burner and a thick topline isnt going to give you much confidence in either case.

Im not sure that I disagree that MBs wont make you a better ball striker.  If you practice with a MB and they go back to your oversize cavity backs, its going to fill you with confidence because your CBs will seem huge.  If you can hit pure shots with MBs, you should be able to do it with your CBs.  In some ways, the lack of feel that CBs have dont help you to get better because you dont instantly know when you miss the center of the face.  Thats one thing that blades will do for you.

Quote

... I don't think anyone can disagree that the look of a beautiful and subtly designed MB is very intoxicating. But in the end the ball really doesn't care what your iron looks like and for those of us trying to shoot the lowest score, that is all that matters. Obviously there are other reasons to play irons than shooting your lowest score and in that case play with the irons that give you the most satisfaction. 

Im with you on that and Id raise you that the ball doesnt care how forgiving your CBs supposedly are too.  A bad swing is still going to give you a bad shot.  When you are hitting a round ball with a square surface, it doesnt matter how scooped out the back of the club.  If you come in steep and the club digs, no amount of sole width in the world is going to prevent you from hitting it fat.  If you make a bad swing, it doesnt matter how much the thickness of the topline fills you with.  Once you duff it, all of your confidence will go out the window.

For me, some of my favorite irons were players' CBs but they had so little of a cavity that they might as well be blades.  I liked them more because they had kind of a midsize head.  They werent the ultra small heads that most blades have but also werely gaudily oversized heads like some GI and SGI irons have.

 

"I suppose its better to be a master of 7 than to be vaguely familiar with 14." - Chick Evans

Whats in my Sun Mountain 2.5+ stand bag?

Woods: Tommy Armour Atomic 10.5* 

Hybrid: Mizuno MP Fli-Hi 3H

Irons: Mizuno T-Zoid True 5, 7 and 9-irons

Wedge: Mizuno S18 54* and Top Flite chipper

Putter: Mizuno Bettinardi A-02

Ball: Maxfli Tour X

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Just want to say this is one of the more interesting and informing discussions I've seen so far on MGS. Started playing golf in earnest at age 40 for business (customer golf) and got hooked. Took a while to figure things out and am competitive by nature just as many here have stated. Am 74 yrs old and in the time since I started playing this game have owned five sets of irons. First set were Pinnacles, then graduated to Slazenger blades, wanted something more forgiving so bought a set of Tommy Armour 855s, then being an old fart decided to go to graphite shafts for less stress on the joints and purchased a set of Callaway XRs with Project X reg shafts. Finally decided I needed more distance and better dispersion and ended up with a set of Ping G700s with senior shafts which I love. Have shot scores in the low 100s, 90s. 80s and high 70s with all these irons. Guess the point of all this is there are many variables in finding a set of irons that match your skill level, physical capabilities and comfort level that allow you to play your best. What is good for one player may not suit someone else. Shot an 81 with the Pings on Wed. So all is good in the world.

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Hit some balls today with my 14 year old son and maybe this analogy will help on why I play blades and he doesn’t. My son just tuned 14 and is close to 6 feet tall and can put a good swing on the ball (plays off a 9.4 from the forward tees at our club). He plays a set of Callaway Steelhead XRs with KBS shafts. I and pick up his clubs and flat out stripe them with no issue. Don’t really care for the look but can hit them well enough. Now I can work the ball right and left all day but up and down is next to impossible, well at least the down part is an issue.

Now take my son and I let him hit my blades with a KBS shaft that is 40g heavier than what he plays and three flexes stiffer. He hit some really nice balls with them and when he got a little sloppy it was just terrible, like barely airborne and forward terrible. Right now I couldn’t play his irons nor could he play mine. Playing blades is not going to challenge him or make him a better ball striker but practice will. Play what works and you have confidence in. Had I not started playing the game in the early 80’s I would have learned to play with cavity irons, but I grew up on blades and that is what works for me.


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   X Forged CB 5 - PW MMT 105 TX 

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   Toulon Madison BGT Fire 34.75"

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I'll chime in on this thread. I am NOT a "good" player. The best I have ever been was an 8 hc.... and that was probably 10 years ago. I'm probably hovering around a 10 - 12 right now. I don't play nearly as much I used to. I practice less than that theses days.  With that out of the way...............

I KNOW that I can hit CB's better than blades. I don't play a strict blade. I play MP64's, which are considered a "player's CB" I hit them well. I've played with them for the last 7 years. I'm looking to upgrade to either the MP18 or 20 MMC's in the near future. For me, I have to like what I'm looking at. I have to appreciate the design and craftsmanship in what ever it is that I purchase. This is more than likely because of my trade. I'm a Cabinetmaker... I very much appreciate clean, well executed lines. Fancy is fine... as long as it adds to the design without hiding flaws in craftsmanship . I much prefer a simple line that is beautiful to look at. So................. that is why I gravitate towards "players irons", even though I am NOT a player. 

I would guess there are a good number of guys like me out there. I don't hit the ball badly. I do mis hit form time to time, like all of us do. I will still take my "blade like" irons over a chunky shovel any day!

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I’ve played blades for a majority of my golfing life. College, my PAT and as a Club Professional, Titleist 962b and 670’s were my tools. I was hitting balls 5/7 days a week and had trained my body and mind to play at a certain level.

Once I left the business, I wasn’t practicing as much but still had my tools that I had grown accustomed to. Even though I knew they were wrong for me, accepting that truth was difficult.

I have played to a 4.3 index over the past three seasons swinging Ben Hogan Ft. Worth 15’s. I thought they were what I needed in an iron. I was wrong.

They were the wrong iron for me I made a conscious decision to re-evaluate my bag.

These days, I am choosing a GI iron and here’s why. I want as much help as possible. I want to play the club that will give me some slack if I just don’t bring it that day. That’s just me. There are so many great clubs to choose from and some of those give you a blade look or performance with some added forgiveness.

  • Titleist TSi3 Fujikura Speeder NX Blue 60X
  • TaylorMade SIM2 3 wood Fujilkura Ventus Blue 7-X
  • Titleist U505 2 Tensei 1K Black 85 X
  • Titleist T100 4-P Nippon Modus 3 120X
  • PING S159 50-S 55-H 59-T DG X100
  • Vokey SM8 50, SM9 54 & 60  Nippon Modus 3 120s
  • L.A.B. MEZZ Max Broom Accra 47" 79.5*
  • Srixon Z-Star XV 

Currently testing the 2024 PING S159 wedges…

https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/63483-testers-announced-ping-s159-wedges/

Was testing, still loving the 2023 Titleist T100 Irons 4-P

https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/60456-titleist-t-series-irons-2023-forum-review/

 

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34 minutes ago, bens197 said:

I’ve played blades for a majority of my golfing life. College, my PAT and as a Club Professional, Titleist 962b and 670’s were my tools. I was hitting balls 5/7 days a week and had trained my body and mind to play at a certain level.

Once I left the business, I wasn’t practicing as much but still had my tools that I had grown accustomed to. Even though I knew they were wrong for me, accepting that truth was difficult. I have played to a 4.3 index over the past three seasons swinging Ben Hogan Ft. Worth 15’s. I thought they were what I needed in an iron. I was wrong.

They were the wrong iron for me I made a conscious decision to re-evaluate my bag. These days, I am choosing a GI iron and here’s why. I want as much help as possible. I want to play the club that will give me some slack if I just don’t bring it that day. That’s just me. There are so many great clubs to choose from and some of those give you a blade look or performance with some added forgiveness.

 

... Awesome stuff bens! I think many low index golfers are in your shoes, even if they have not played at your level. As I have said I can play my Z Forged MB's and score as well as I could with my P790/760's on the days when I am swinging well. But on the days I am not, not only will my shots be worse, it takes an emotional toll on me mentally because I know I am swinging poorly and if I had only played my P790/760's I would have more confidence. So like you, I want clubs with the best performance compromise I can find and as much forgiveness as I can get, clubs that reward me on my good days but don't penalize me too much on my off days. 

Driver:     :taylormade-small:  Qi10 10.5* ... Ventus Red Velocore 5R
Fairway:  :cobra-small: Aerojet 3/5 ... Kai'li Blue 60R
Hybrids:  :ping-small:      430 Hybrid 22*... Steelfiber 780Hy 
                  :taylormade-small:  DHy #4 ... Diamana LTD 65r 
Irons:       :titleist-small:         '23 T200 5-Pw ... Steelfiber i95r
Wedges:  :taylormade-small: Vokey 50*/54*/58* ... Steelfiber i95r
Putter:     :cobra-small:  Sport-60 33" 
Ball:           Maxfli     Maxfli Tour

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12 hours ago, chisag said:

 

... Awesome stuff bens! I think many low index golfers are in your shoes, even if they have not played at your level. As I have said I can play my Z Forged MB's and score as well as I could with my P790/760's on the days when I am swinging well. But on the days I am not, not only will my shots be worse, it takes an emotional toll on me mentally because I know I am swinging poorly and if I had only played my P790/760's I would have more confidence. So like you, I want clubs with the best performance compromise I can find and as much forgiveness as I can get, clubs that reward me on my good days but don't penalize me too much on my off days. 

When I'm playing poorly they don't make a club forgiving enough to help me Chi!!😄

Ping G430 Driver, 19° Hybrid, Ping Anser 23° Hybrid, Mizuno 923 Hot Metal 6-GW, Ping 54°&58° Glides, Scotty Cameron 5.5

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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For me, sole grind and width considerations are maybe as important as head design.  A blade with the right sole combination for me would test better from a forgiveness point of view than a GI with an incorrect one.  Best example I can give is the sole that Srixon uses (and Maltby now has their version of it on the TS-1 and 2 irons) is awful for me.  It just does not enter and exit the turf the way I expect.  Certainly a Srixon 585 is objectively more forgiving (from an MOI perspective) than say a Mizuno blade but I would have better results with the blade.

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On 3/28/2020 at 7:21 PM, Jmikecpa said:

Hit some balls today with my 14 year old son and maybe this analogy will help on why I play blades and he doesn’t. My son just tuned 14 and is close to 6 feet tall and can put a good swing on the ball (plays off a 9.4 from the forward tees at our club). He plays a set of Callaway Steelhead XRs with KBS shafts. I and pick up his clubs and flat out stripe them with no issue. Don’t really care for the look but can hit them well enough. Now I can work the ball right and left all day but up and down is next to impossible, well at least the down part is an issue.

Now take my son and I let him hit my blades with a KBS shaft that is 40g heavier than what he plays and three flexes stiffer. He hit some really nice balls with them and when he got a little sloppy it was just terrible, like barely airborne and forward terrible. Right now I couldn’t play his irons nor could he play mine. Playing blades is not going to challenge him or make him a better ball striker but practice will. Play what works and you have confidence in. Had I not started playing the game in the early 80’s I would have learned to play with cavity irons, but I grew up on blades and that is what works for me.


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With out really knowing your son's game I will venture to say with your heavier stiffer shafted clubs he is not necessarily getting sloppy but tired. Trust me on that. A few years ago my head Pro was a Nike Staffer. We were on the range and he was showing me his new blades with X-1000 shafts. Now this guy is a dead ringer for Brooks Koepka in both looks and build. He wanted me to hit his 7 iron and I told him that was too much shaft for me but I hit it anyhow. He said "see I told you" I told him yeah I could hit 3 range balls pretty decent but a whole round no way. This was about the time my back problems were starting to creep in and I was crossing over from  S-300s and S-400s to R-300s etc. 

Driver ---- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha  Speeder 565 R flex- 5W TM V-Steel Fubuki 60r--- 7W TM V-Steel UST Pro Force Gold 65R----- 9 W TM V Steel TM MAS stiff---- Irons 2015 TM TP CB Steel Fiber 95 R--- GW Callaway Mack Daddy 2 52* shaft unknown junk pile refugee. SW Callaway PM Grind 56*  Modified sole grind--- KBS Tour Wedge-- LW Vokey 58* SM5 L grind--- Putter Ping B90I Broom Stick 

 

 

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With out really knowing your son's game I will venture to say with your heavier stiffer shafted clubs he is not necessarily getting sloppy but tired. Trust me on that. A few years ago my head Pro was a Nike Staffer. We were on the range and he was showing me his new blades with X-1000 shafts. Now this guy is a dead ringer for Brooks Koepka in both looks and build. He wanted me to hit his 7 iron and I told him that was too much shaft for me but I hit it anyhow. He said "see I told you" I told him yeah I could hit 3 range balls pretty decent but a whole round no way. This was about the time my back problems were starting to creep in and I was crossing over from  S-300s and S-400s to R-300s etc. 

I would agree but for once he is listening to me about his game and letting me teach a little bit so I am going with sloppy . Really his biggest issue is he got a lot bigger and stronger and doesn’t realize how hard he can go at the ball quite yet. The end of our range is 235 with a 25 foot net and when he goes hard with a driver the net is not even an issue for him.


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   M5 15* Evenflow Black 75g 6.5

   Sim Ti 22* HZRDUS Red 75g 6.5

   Sim2 Rescue 22* Diamana Thump 100x

   X Forged CB 5 - PW MMT 105 TX 

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On 3/29/2020 at 12:32 PM, bellairemi said:

For me, sole grind and width considerations are maybe as important as head design.  A blade with the right sole combination for me would test better from a forgiveness point of view than a GI with an incorrect one.  Best example I can give is the sole that Srixon uses (and Maltby now has their version of it on the TS-1 and 2 irons) is awful for me.  It just does not enter and exit the turf the way I expect.  Certainly a Srixon 585 is objectively more forgiving (from an MOI perspective) than say a Mizuno blade but I would have better results with the blade.

100% correct--- Everyone's AOA is different and sole/ turf reaction is different. Lots of times it has to do with what sole design you grew up with and developed your own AOA. For me it was butter knife blades with sharp leading edges. I am also a "digger of the ball" and hit a trap cut. Now with that being said I can still nip one off a tight lie if I have to. A lot of people need bounce in both irons and wedges I am not one of them

Driver ---- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha  Speeder 565 R flex- 5W TM V-Steel Fubuki 60r--- 7W TM V-Steel UST Pro Force Gold 65R----- 9 W TM V Steel TM MAS stiff---- Irons 2015 TM TP CB Steel Fiber 95 R--- GW Callaway Mack Daddy 2 52* shaft unknown junk pile refugee. SW Callaway PM Grind 56*  Modified sole grind--- KBS Tour Wedge-- LW Vokey 58* SM5 L grind--- Putter Ping B90I Broom Stick 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Jmikecpa said:


I would agree but for once he is listening to me about his game and letting me teach a little bit so I am going with sloppy emoji23.png. Really his biggest issue is he got a lot bigger and stronger and doesn’t realize how hard he can go at the ball quite yet. The end of our range is 235 with a 25 foot net and when he goes hard with a driver the net is not even an issue for him.


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I hear you.

Driver ---- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha  Speeder 565 R flex- 5W TM V-Steel Fubuki 60r--- 7W TM V-Steel UST Pro Force Gold 65R----- 9 W TM V Steel TM MAS stiff---- Irons 2015 TM TP CB Steel Fiber 95 R--- GW Callaway Mack Daddy 2 52* shaft unknown junk pile refugee. SW Callaway PM Grind 56*  Modified sole grind--- KBS Tour Wedge-- LW Vokey 58* SM5 L grind--- Putter Ping B90I Broom Stick 

 

 

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I'm sure Chisag is sick to death of seeing my comments on this topic, he's seen it a LOT over the last couple decades, LOL.  I'll try not get too verbose...

I am an unrepentant blade user.  Switched back in 2001.  Have gone back and forth many times, with various CB irons, and have always come back to the blades.  The ultimate reason...  I score better with the blades.  My overall shot results are better with blades.  I've seen this on the course, and had it demonstrated rather starkly on a launch monitor at 2nd Swing (considerably tighter dispersion).

For me, that's all it is.  The usual blade narrative doesn't quite apply to me.  I don't try to work the ball much.  I like the feel, but I don't know that I'm really a feel disciple (I may have been 15+ years ago); I spent a year playing Ping Eye2+, own a set of ISI (both 17-4), and have a set of Pinhawk Single Length (431), and have had no problem with the feel of any of those.  With a somewhat steeper swing, the wider soles and added bounce in the GI world are better for my game.  But, I just don't score quite the same with those sticks.  There have been a number of such clubs, that I really wanted to like, but just didn't get 'er done.

There's nothing particularly special about my game.  I'm a 7 index, formerly mildly long hitter, former baseball player, blah blah blah.  I seem to be able to hit the center of the face pretty well, and rather often, but my GIR don't indicate any amazing level of ballstriking.

The only CBs I've played that have kept my scores close to the same as I see with my blade sets are the Eye2+ mentioned above.  Almost completely opposite in appearance to the Golden Rams, Mizunos, Palmers, Wilson Staffs, MacGregors, etc that I've used over the years.  Go figure.

That's all I got.  take it FWIW...

Driver: TM Original One 11.5* set to 11*, Aldila NV75 X, 43.5" -or- SpeedZone, HZRDUS Black 75 6.5, 43.5"
3w:  Cobra King LTD, RIP Beta 90, 42" -or- Stage 2 Tour, NV105 X, 42.5"
2h or 3h:  TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour, Aldila NV105 S -or- RIP Alpha 105 S
Irons:  3-PW Mizuno MP37, Recoil Proto 125 F4 (reshaft in progress, slowly); 1i & 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S; 2-PW Golden Ram TW282, RIP Tour 115 R
GW: Dynacraft Dual Milled CNC 52*, Steelfiber 125 S; Scratch 8620 DS 53*, Steelfiber 125 S
SW:  Ram TG-898 56*, DGX ss2x; Ram Tom Watson 55*, DGX ss2x; Wilson Staff PMP 58*, DGS; PM Grind 19 58*, stock shaft
Putter:  Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34"; Ping Scottsdale TR Craz-E, 35"; Cleveland Huntington Beach 1, 35"
Ball:  Wilson Staff Duo Professional, Bridgestone Tour B-RXS, Callaway Chrome Soft

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4 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

I'm sure Chisag is sick to death of seeing my comments on this topic, he's seen it a LOT over the last couple decades, LOL.  I'll try not get too verbose...

I am an unrepentant blade user.  Switched back in 2001.  Have gone back and forth many times, with various CB irons, and have always come back to the blades.  The ultimate reason...  I score better with the blades.  My overall shot results are better with blades.  I've seen this on the course, and had it demonstrated rather starkly on a launch monitor at 2nd Swing (considerably tighter dispersion).

For me, that's all it is.  The usual blade narrative doesn't quite apply to me.  I don't try to work the ball much.  I like the feel, but I don't know that I'm really a feel disciple (I may have been 15+ years ago); I spent a year playing Ping Eye2+, own a set of ISI (both 17-4), and have a set of Pinhawk Single Length (431), and have had no problem with the feel of any of those.  With a somewhat steeper swing, the wider soles and added bounce in the GI world are better for my game.  But, I just don't score quite the same with those sticks.  There have been a number of such clubs, that I really wanted to like, but just didn't get 'er done.

There's nothing particularly special about my game.  I'm a 7 index, formerly mildly long hitter, former baseball player, blah blah blah.  I seem to be able to hit the center of the face pretty well, and rather often, but my GIR don't indicate any amazing level of ballstriking.

The only CBs I've played that have kept my scores close to the same as I see with my blade sets are the Eye2+ mentioned above.  Almost completely opposite in appearance to the Golden Rams, Mizunos, Palmers, Wilson Staffs, MacGregors, etc that I've used over the years.  Go figure.

That's all I got.  take it FWIW...

Chisag will not get tired of you or me. Hey he has had to put up with me too.  But seriously he knows what is going on with guys like you and I and where we are coming from. LOL just remembered he puts up with you and I on not one but two sites!!!!

Driver ---- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha  Speeder 565 R flex- 5W TM V-Steel Fubuki 60r--- 7W TM V-Steel UST Pro Force Gold 65R----- 9 W TM V Steel TM MAS stiff---- Irons 2015 TM TP CB Steel Fiber 95 R--- GW Callaway Mack Daddy 2 52* shaft unknown junk pile refugee. SW Callaway PM Grind 56*  Modified sole grind--- KBS Tour Wedge-- LW Vokey 58* SM5 L grind--- Putter Ping B90I Broom Stick 

 

 

 G

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2 minutes ago, BIG STU said:

Chisag will not get tired of you or me. Hey he has had to put up with me too.  But seriously he knows what is going on with guys like you and I and where we are coming from. LOL just remembered he puts up with you and I on not one but two sites!!!!


In my case, it's at least three sites.  LOL

Driver: TM Original One 11.5* set to 11*, Aldila NV75 X, 43.5" -or- SpeedZone, HZRDUS Black 75 6.5, 43.5"
3w:  Cobra King LTD, RIP Beta 90, 42" -or- Stage 2 Tour, NV105 X, 42.5"
2h or 3h:  TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour, Aldila NV105 S -or- RIP Alpha 105 S
Irons:  3-PW Mizuno MP37, Recoil Proto 125 F4 (reshaft in progress, slowly); 1i & 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S; 2-PW Golden Ram TW282, RIP Tour 115 R
GW: Dynacraft Dual Milled CNC 52*, Steelfiber 125 S; Scratch 8620 DS 53*, Steelfiber 125 S
SW:  Ram TG-898 56*, DGX ss2x; Ram Tom Watson 55*, DGX ss2x; Wilson Staff PMP 58*, DGS; PM Grind 19 58*, stock shaft
Putter:  Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34"; Ping Scottsdale TR Craz-E, 35"; Cleveland Huntington Beach 1, 35"
Ball:  Wilson Staff Duo Professional, Bridgestone Tour B-RXS, Callaway Chrome Soft

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5 minutes ago, BIG STU said:

Chisag will not get tired of you or me. Hey he has had to put up with me too.  But seriously he knows what is going on with guys like you and I and where we are coming from. LOL just remembered he puts up with you and I on not one but two sites!!!!


Stu, thought of you the other day.  When I bought a new (to me) car this winter, wife and I cleared out the side of the garage, where I had multiple golf bags stuffed with irons.  I brought all those sets in the house.  Well, the other day, there's my set of Muirfields, rubber banded together and leaning against the wall.

I really need to take those on the course some more this year.  I've tracked down a 1 iron, I am toying with going full on old school, 1-PW with a single 56* or 58* on top of that.  In contrast with the theme of my earlier post, my playing a 1 iron would be for some form of nostalgia, not because I actually hit it better.  I largely quit hitting irons in that slot a few years ago, though I did manage to find a Maxfli Revolution 1 iron on fleabay a few years ago.  It's a nice touch in that 17* zone.  😊

With apologies to everyone for the deviation from topic...

Driver: TM Original One 11.5* set to 11*, Aldila NV75 X, 43.5" -or- SpeedZone, HZRDUS Black 75 6.5, 43.5"
3w:  Cobra King LTD, RIP Beta 90, 42" -or- Stage 2 Tour, NV105 X, 42.5"
2h or 3h:  TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour, Aldila NV105 S -or- RIP Alpha 105 S
Irons:  3-PW Mizuno MP37, Recoil Proto 125 F4 (reshaft in progress, slowly); 1i & 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S; 2-PW Golden Ram TW282, RIP Tour 115 R
GW: Dynacraft Dual Milled CNC 52*, Steelfiber 125 S; Scratch 8620 DS 53*, Steelfiber 125 S
SW:  Ram TG-898 56*, DGX ss2x; Ram Tom Watson 55*, DGX ss2x; Wilson Staff PMP 58*, DGS; PM Grind 19 58*, stock shaft
Putter:  Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34"; Ping Scottsdale TR Craz-E, 35"; Cleveland Huntington Beach 1, 35"
Ball:  Wilson Staff Duo Professional, Bridgestone Tour B-RXS, Callaway Chrome Soft

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... NRJyzr and Big Stu I had a student that was nowhere near a good enough ball striker to play MB's  but he was adamant that he hit them better than a more forgiving iron. I put a few GI's and players CB irons in his hands and sure enough, he hit them worse. It was all in his head of course but in the end, does that matter? At first I thought he was taking poor swings on purpose so he could stick with his MB's but I discarded that idea quickly because he honestly wanted to improve and worked hard between lessons. He was convinced he played better with MB's, so he did. He was with me a full year and improved quite a bit but never got to a high level of ball striking and I never questioned his iron choice again. Some players, that on paper should play better with GI's or at least players irons, just play better with MB's. I do not claim to have any insight into big Stu and Ed's games because I have never seen either play, but I have zero doubt they both play their best with MB's.  

Driver:     :taylormade-small:  Qi10 10.5* ... Ventus Red Velocore 5R
Fairway:  :cobra-small: Aerojet 3/5 ... Kai'li Blue 60R
Hybrids:  :ping-small:      430 Hybrid 22*... Steelfiber 780Hy 
                  :taylormade-small:  DHy #4 ... Diamana LTD 65r 
Irons:       :titleist-small:         '23 T200 5-Pw ... Steelfiber i95r
Wedges:  :taylormade-small: Vokey 50*/54*/58* ... Steelfiber i95r
Putter:     :cobra-small:  Sport-60 33" 
Ball:           Maxfli     Maxfli Tour

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47 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:


Stu, thought of you the other day.  When I bought a new (to me) car this winter, wife and I cleared out the side of the garage, where I had multiple golf bags stuffed with irons.  I brought all those sets in the house.  Well, the other day, there's my set of Muirfields, rubber banded together and leaning against the wall.

I really need to take those on the course some more this year.  I've tracked down a 1 iron, I am toying with going full on old school, 1-PW with a single 56* or 58* on top of that.  In contrast with the theme of my earlier post, my playing a 1 iron would be for some form of nostalgia, not because I actually hit it better.  I largely quit hitting irons in that slot a few years ago, though I did manage to find a Maxfli Revolution 1 iron on fleabay a few years ago.  It's a nice touch in that 17* zone.  😊

With apologies to everyone for the deviation from topic...

Not really a deviation--- And to be honest at our age we can not hit a long iron like we used to. Oh yeah I can still hit a 1 iron but not as effectively as my 19* hybrid. Plus I have been practicing and working with both of my hybrids some in the last year. When I say working with it means on my hitting experimenting with shots and doing some adjusting club wise. I have been playing these dog fights on Saturdays at my new home course. Now if I am playing my strictly vintage rounds walking or what ever I still bag a 1 or 2 iron. But the hybrids have became more versatile for me than the 1 iron or a 4 iron ever were. But I did have a old glimpse of nostalgia Saturday. We finished up on a par 5 and were out of the general gist of things but had our only side bet won. Had 185 into this Par 5 one of my partners had already hit it on the green and we had an Eagle putt. I still carry my 4 iron but had not hit it in a month or more. I hit a screamer with about a 3 yard cut on the green. I will admit it would have been easier with my 24* hybrid. Also love that 24* from funky lies. We got into trouble driver wise on one par 4 but only 140 out but had to hit one heck of a cut. I opened up that 24 to about 27 or maybe 28 and hit one heck of a cut around a tree onto the green and we made an unlikely birdie. Yep that is a case of my experimenting paying off. One thing I have learned recently is that on some things you have do differently as your age evolves.  BTW No one on MGS gives two hoots if you go off topic trust me

Driver ---- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha  Speeder 565 R flex- 5W TM V-Steel Fubuki 60r--- 7W TM V-Steel UST Pro Force Gold 65R----- 9 W TM V Steel TM MAS stiff---- Irons 2015 TM TP CB Steel Fiber 95 R--- GW Callaway Mack Daddy 2 52* shaft unknown junk pile refugee. SW Callaway PM Grind 56*  Modified sole grind--- KBS Tour Wedge-- LW Vokey 58* SM5 L grind--- Putter Ping B90I Broom Stick 

 

 

 G

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