Blades vs. Game Improvement - Where's the Data?

[chisag 11,492]

2 minutes ago, ballplayer002003 said:

I think we have to take the ego part out of clubs.  Egotistically, when we have blades, we are saying to the golfing community (whoever is on the tee box) that I am a great golfer...maybe so maybe no.  I am gaming the JPX900 forged irons, I tested the PING G410's.  In my mind I am having a hard time egotistically as well.  In my opinion, the Mizuno's are a better club, for a better player (which I WANT TO think I am) but when playing the PING's I had really good results.  So I should be happy to just play the Ping's, but I'm not.  I go back and forth every couple of rounds with the PING's and the Mizuno's to see if one can start to stand out but they don't.  They are both pretty similar.  So it's obviously the person swinging and not the equipment.  Do I want to play blades or a blade look (Miznuo MP20 HMB or the TM760) sure, but simply for the ego side of things.  Do I want the forgiveness of a GI iron absolutely!!!  So really I guess it all boils down to what do you want more, a lower score or someone saying to you, "nice sticks".  

 

... Honestly ballplayer, I don't think it is the golf community as much as talking to yourself. I have been paired up with strangers that have admired my game or score waaaaaaaay more than anyone that admired my clubs. It has been my experience that about 95% not only don't care what I am playing, they don't even notice. When it comes to my ego, I find it more rewarding to hear "great shot!" much more than "nice sticks!" Not once in my life has anyone ever said something like  "You hit your 5 iron 193yds with a beautiful high trajectory that was right at the flag, hopped and stopped right next to it for a 1 foot birdie putt! Just think how much more rewarding that would have been if you used an MB instead of your P790!"   I just don't understand the desire to play any club that penalizes your ability to hit your best shots and post your lowest score. (Of course this doesn't apply to those that really don't care about score and play clubs for the sheer enjoyment of hitting them) 

[Wedgie 4,971]

Just now, chisag said:

 

... Honestly ballplayer, I don't think it is the golf community as much as talking to yourself. I have been paired up with strangers that have admired my game or score waaaaaaaay more than anyone that admired my clubs. It has been my experience that about 95% not only don't care what I am playing, they don't even notice. When it comes to my ego, I find it more rewarding to hear "great shot!" much more than "nice sticks!" Not once in my life has anyone ever said something like  "You hit your 5 iron 193yds with a beautiful high trajectory that was right at the flag, hopped and stopped right next to it for a 1 foot birdie putt! Just think how much more rewarding that would have been if you used an MB instead of your P790!"   I just don't understand the desire to play any club that penalizes your ability to hit your best shots and post your lowest score. (Of course this doesn't apply to those that really don't care about score and play clubs for the sheer enjoyment of hitting them) 

+1 to that!  I've been gaming the Cleveland Launchers for 3 seasons and not a peep from anyone about my clubs.  At least to my face anyway.  Just picked them up today after pimping them out with Steelfiber shafts.  It will be like playing lawn darts with these this year.

[NiftyNiblick 1,962]

I would think that knowing which style of club that you more enjoy playing should take precedence over any data accumulated.

[HardcoreLooper 5,098]

6 hours ago, NiftyNiblick said:

I would think that knowing which style of club that you more enjoy playing should take precedence over any data accumulated.

It depends upon what brings you enjoyment, doesn't it?  For me, shooting the lowest score possible is what brings me enjoyment, so I want to play the clubs that help me shoot the lowest scores possible.  If other golfers play for other purposes, then by all means they should play the clubs that maximize their enjoyment.

[Jmikecpa 12,470]

So I will use me as an example. I grew up playing blades and that is what I played most of my life. A few years back I talked myself into I can’t play blades anymore since life happens and I don’t practice so I started trying to find a balance of the look I want and some forgiveness. I found that in my Titleist TMBs that I played for most of the last few years. When I got fit this year for my PXGs I told the fitter I wanted to stay away from blades and do a P and T combo set. He took one look at the wear on my irons and told me to just hit the STs and they were money. Now I have zero confidence in that style iron as a 4 and 5 iron and possibly a 6 iron. The fitter made a comment that I have now heard a few times in the past two months that style of clubhead is irrelevant to results if you have confidence in your clubs. For me I could hit a full set of blades but why have three clubs in the bag that I just don’t “think” I can hit well? Long post but to me it all comes down to being confident in whatever you play.

I watched this video today and the fitting was kind of what I went through in my last fitting. The video is a bit long but worth the watch.

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[ballplayer002003 1,039]

17 hours ago, chisag said:

 

... Honestly ballplayer, I don't think it is the golf community as much as talking to yourself. I have been paired up with strangers that have admired my game or score waaaaaaaay more than anyone that admired my clubs. It has been my experience that about 95% not only don't care what I am playing, they don't even notice. When it comes to my ego, I find it more rewarding to hear "great shot!" much more than "nice sticks!" Not once in my life has anyone ever said something like  "You hit your 5 iron 193yds with a beautiful high trajectory that was right at the flag, hopped and stopped right next to it for a 1 foot birdie putt! Just think how much more rewarding that would have been if you used an MB instead of your P790!"   I just don't understand the desire to play any club that penalizes your ability to hit your best shots and post your lowest score. (Of course this doesn't apply to those that really don't care about score and play clubs for the sheer enjoyment of hitting them) 

Very true, unfortunately I have worked at courses around my area where guys would buy the latest and greatest EVERY SINGLE YEAR.  They wanted the attention on the tee box of look at me, look at my clubs and everything I can afford.  They were never worried about score.   I couldn't agree with you more about the nice hit comment instead of the nice sticks!  My friends don't care what I play with just who wins the round.  

[Tsecor 460]

my hdcp dropped quite a bit when i moved out of the SGI category to the CB 712 club......also the fat soled approach wedges are horrible and i saved a ton of strokes on the course with my vokeys.... play what works, not what marketing tells you to play.....test em all and buy what works for you regardless of hdcp.

[TR1PTIK 2,598]

5 hours ago, Tsecor said:

play what works, not what marketing tells you to play.....test em all and buy what works for you regardless of hdcp.

EXACTLY!!!

[McaseyM 1,689]

I thik it'll depend on what one thinks makes them a "better" golfer. For me, it's the objective score. As subjective as everything is with feel, sound and looks, it all comes down to your true final score, no mulligans, no gimmes, counting penalties true:  how many actual strokes it took for you to get the ball from the tee-box into the cup each hole. If I'm playing a match against someone with my GI irons adn higher launching shafts and more forgiving wedges and they have blades and I beat them, then that day, to me,  I am the better golfer. You can work the ball this way and that all you want, but if you can't put it all together for an entire round from tee-box to green, then it doesn't really matter.

[BIG STU 7,121]

On 2/26/2020 at 8:49 AM, Tsecor said:

my hdcp dropped quite a bit when i moved out of the SGI category to the CB 712 club......also the fat soled approach wedges are horrible and i saved a ton of strokes on the course with my vokeys.... play what works, not what marketing tells you to play.....test em all and buy what works for you regardless of hdcp.

I have always been a proponent of play what you like and what works best for you and your game. Even though I am a lifetime blade user I flat refuse to tell anyone that blades will make them a better ball striker etc. I always say different strokes for different folks that's what makes the world go round and round. I am as brand agnostic as one can get

[BIG STU 7,121]

3 hours ago, McaseyM said:

I thik it'll depend on what one thinks makes them a "better" golfer. For me, it's the objective score. As subjective as everything is with feel, sound and looks, it all comes down to your true final score, no mulligans, no gimmes, counting penalties true:  how many actual strokes it took for you to get the ball from the tee-box into the cup each hole. If I'm playing a match against someone with my GI irons adn higher launching shafts and more forgiving wedges and they have blades and I beat them, then that day, to me,  I am the better golfer. You can work the ball this way and that all you want, but if you can't put it all together for an entire round from tee-box to green, then it doesn't really matter.

That is what makes golf such a funny game---- I have had days when I hit the ball great and could not make a putt--- Then I have had days where I could not hit a green or fairway and the wedges and putter bailed me out. And a whole lot of the equipment thing is how one utilizes the high launch shafts etc. The old timers call it knowing how to golf your ball. 

[chisag 11,492]

2 minutes ago, BIG STU said:

And a whole lot of the equipment thing is how one utilizes the high launch shafts etc. The old timers call it knowing how to golf your ball. 

 

... Exactly Big'un. Us old timers that have been around the game a long time also know this game is 75% mental and the other 50% is mental.   Obviously if you have an open mind, you will find which clubs work best for your swing and your ability. Of course if you are already predisposed to love MB's because you think they will make you a better ball striker, there is a very good chance they will. And if you think GI's will improve your mishits allowing you to swing freer and hit the center more often, there is a very good chance they will. 
 

... We grew up either learning to work the ball or attempting to minimize the balls movement. Meaning we either purposefully played a draw or a fade or we tried to minimize our hook or slice. Balata balls, thin soled MB's and persimmon woods were gonna move and it was just about impossible to hit a straight shot. Todays equipment almost all just want to go high and straight, so the younger generation grew up playing a different game. We learned accuracy and then added distance. They grew up learning distance and then added accuracy. The 3 sets that I play cover the entire spectrum. Long and straight low spin P790's, mid length and workable mid spin P760's, high spin and shorter but ultimately workable and accurate Z Forged. You can find anything you want with todays equipment and clearly there is no one size fits all.

[BIG STU 7,121]

5 hours ago, chisag said:

 

... Exactly Big'un. Us old timers that have been around the game a long time also know this game is 75% mental and the other 50% is mental.   Obviously if you have an open mind, you will find which clubs work best for your swing and your ability. Of course if you are already predisposed to love MB's because you think they will make you a better ball striker, there is a very good chance they will. And if you think GI's will improve your mishits allowing you to swing freer and hit the center more often, there is a very good chance they will. 
 

... We grew up either learning to work the ball or attempting to minimize the balls movement. Meaning we either purposefully played a draw or a fade or we tried to minimize our hook or slice. Balata balls, thin soled MB's and persimmon woods were gonna move and it was just about impossible to hit a straight shot. Todays equipment almost all just want to go high and straight, so the younger generation grew up playing a different game. We learned accuracy and then added distance. They grew up learning distance and then added accuracy. The 3 sets that I play cover the entire spectrum. Long and straight low spin P790's, mid length and workable mid spin P760's, high spin and shorter but ultimately workable and accurate Z Forged. You can find anything you want with todays equipment and clearly there is no one size fits all.

You have known me long enough to know I never considered myself a ball striker or a shot maker for that matter. I guess I am sorta in the middle. I basically play off of instinct and feel. Way back in my 20s when I was getting young and strong I had a rope hook problem due to fast swing and hands. I basically self corrected myself with opening up my left side and developing my outside in swing. Believe it or not I absolutely can not play golf hitting the ball straight. If I absolutely have to I can draw the ball but I do not trust it. As you know on today's balls they are aerodynamically fixed for less side spin etc. Good case in point the Bridgestone E-6. I knew the Bstone rep here and he gave me a couple of sample packs of the E-6. I played them one day for about 12 holes or so. Could not cut them. They hit fine but I could not cut them. Switched back to a Pro V because I thought it was me. It was not it was the tricked up ball. The rep laughed and told everyone if I could not cut it no one could.  On the brain part you are 110% correct I fear the rope hook worse than most fear the shanks. Even though my old man was a pro and instructor I developed my own way of doing things right or wrong for me. I have a varying degree of cut and that is not due to swing changes but I do it by manipulating the face of the club. Most of the face manipulating is pure instinct since I have done it so long. Like I have said before I do not believe anyone could teach what I do swing wise and really I would not recommend anyone trying it and it would also go for the equipment I play. 

[BIG STU 7,121]

On 2/25/2020 at 1:34 PM, chisag said:

 

... Honestly ballplayer, I don't think it is the golf community as much as talking to yourself. I have been paired up with strangers that have admired my game or score waaaaaaaay more than anyone that admired my clubs. It has been my experience that about 95% not only don't care what I am playing, they don't even notice. When it comes to my ego, I find it more rewarding to hear "great shot!" much more than "nice sticks!" Not once in my life has anyone ever said something like  "You hit your 5 iron 193yds with a beautiful high trajectory that was right at the flag, hopped and stopped right next to it for a 1 foot birdie putt! Just think how much more rewarding that would have been if you used an MB instead of your P790!"   I just don't understand the desire to play any club that penalizes your ability to hit your best shots and post your lowest score. (Of course this doesn't apply to those that really don't care about score and play clubs for the sheer enjoyment of hitting them) 

For me honestly I guess my enjoyment of the game is different now since I have retired from comps and big money matches. But inside I am still a competitive person and you can bet the farm on that. If I am playing with one of the groups I play with I am trying to win period. If playing the Saturday morning scramble at my new home club I am trying to win. So I am going to play with my front line stuff. Lately for me it's been the forged CB KZGs. Even though the lofts are the same as my Macs right now I am getting a little more out of them and they being Kyoei forged have a great feel. Spring and summer I will more than likely switch back to the Macs. Now on the other hand if I play tomorrow afternoon I will more than likely play one of the blade sets with persimmon. Even playing the vintage golf I am in competition with myself and will try to go as low as I can go. But on the other hand if I do not go low I still enjoy the feel of the old blades and persimmon. Sometimes I challenge myself on my 5 club walking rounds ( again playing vintage with maybe a couple of hickories thrown in) I challenge myself by creating shots with limited clubs. So for me I create a challenge no matter the type of golf I am playing. And I feel when playing the dogfight I owe it to my partners or team to play the best equipment. Since quitting comps etc my perspective on the game has changed. One of my goals this year since retirement is a month away is to get out of the truck off my butt walk and lose weight so I can walk 18 again. I love my walking rounds with vintage equipment. Right now I can walk about 4 holes or so. 

[Jmikecpa 12,470]

There is an interview with Rocco on that other site that was really cool to hear. Rocco has always played more forgiving irons in his career (Cally X12s to X22s) but he always practices with blades. His theory is as long as he can hit a draw the clubs are for him. Was also a plus on his thoughts on driver spin.


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[PuffyC 13]

I’ve unofficially tried this and while I’m still somewhat on the fence, I’m leaning towards this one being false. If you’re not finding center and don’t know where your miss is, buy a $20 roll of impact tape and practice with your gamers - you’ll get better results. I will say that as a mid handicapper I could bag blades (and have) and be able to get around the course just fine although my scores would not be as good, so play what you want. For me the game is way more fun playing my old XR Pros. 

[RickyBobby_PR 4,788]

22 minutes ago, PuffyC said:

I’ve unofficially tried this and while I’m still somewhat on the fence, I’m leaning towards this one being false. If you’re not finding center and don’t know where your miss is, buy a $20 roll of impact tape and practice with your gamers - you’ll get better results. I will say that as a mid handicapper I could bag blades (and have) and be able to get around the course just fine although my scores would not be as good, so play what you want. For me the game is way more fun playing my old XR Pros. 

Or save $15 and buy some foot spray 

[braincramp 174]

I don't have any data but over the last 30 years I've played just about everything under the sun. All I know is I can shoot a 78 with blades or Ping G series. I can also shoot a 92 with either. For me, it's all about keeping the ball in play and no 3 putts.

[BadgerGolfer 709]

I dont think that blade vs CB matters anywhere near as much as people make it out.  At the end of the day, its still just a hunk of metal on the end of the stick, does it really matter that much what the back of the clubhead looks like?  Do you really think that if the back side of the head is scooped out vs one that has more meat on the bottom half on the head really matters?

IMO, its all marketing and no matter if its a blade or a CB, a bad swing is never going to give you great golf shots with either.

[fixyurdivot 8,403]

On 2/25/2020 at 11:17 AM, ballplayer002003 said:

I think we have to take the ego part out of clubs.  Egotistically, when we have blades, we are saying to the golfing community (whoever is on the tee box) that I am a great golfer...maybe so maybe no.  I am gaming the JPX900 forged irons, I tested the PING G410's.  In my mind I am having a hard time egotistically as well.  In my opinion, the Mizuno's are a better club, for a better player (which I WANT TO think I am) but when playing the PING's I had really good results.  So I should be happy to just play the Ping's, but I'm not.  I go back and forth every couple of rounds with the PING's and the Mizuno's to see if one can start to stand out but they don't.  They are both pretty similar.  So it's obviously the person swinging and not the equipment.  Do I want to play blades or a blade look (Miznuo MP20 HMB or the TM760) sure, but simply for the ego side of things.  Do I want the forgiveness of a GI iron absolutely!!!  So really I guess it all boils down to what do you want more, a lower score or someone saying to you, "nice sticks".  

I think you are providing the very data the thread is seeking. The JPX900 were my second choice (fitter said "toss up") and I often wonder whether they would have been a better choice than the G410's.  Part of my rationale for picking the PING's is my age and figuring that a GI iron would work better in the future (not one to change clubs often). I openly admit that I am drawn to the "forged" stamp and the connection with forged blades and low handicap players.  I guess it's just human nature to believe there is something better than what we're gaming.  As I've stated in other threads, my interest in players category irons is more a curiosity as to whether they would offer me improvement that yields lower scoring - something the G410's have definitely done. 

A big part of this discussion revolves around the ball flight "workability" of blades.  I have tested my ability to move the ball left and right, using a couple of MB irons (PING BP's most recent) and able to do so.  But then I step back and ask myself how much value would this ability help my game - I don't think very much in all honesty.  Perhaps that has to do with the courses I play, but I'm seldom standing over a shot and thinking "need a draw or fade".  As for "feel", my experience, albeit limited, is that it is not a factor that I'm able to distinguish in the ball strike.  A flushed G410 feels just as good to me as a flushed BP.

So considering this, why should I even care about playing forged blades?