The forged blade challenge

[PuffyC]

I’m sure this has been discussed but I’d be interested in seeing the results from a blind test of a modern cast players distance club vs a forged blade or cb. I wonder if people really could feel significant difference if they couldn’t see what they were hitting because I’m not sure I could. My gamers are XR Pros but I’ve been playing around with some old FG17s and a restored set of vintage Hogan’s and to be honest I think my XR Pros feel better even when I’m striping the blades. Is this because my blades are over 30 years old? I’ve personally reshafted both sets so I don’t think that’s the issue. Maybe feel is just lost on me? I’d add that I’m a midhandicapper mostly because I’m lucky to play once or twice a month but I had a couple rounds in the 70s last year so I’m not totally clueless when it comes to ball striking. My driver speed is 96-98 and goes around 255 on average and I hit my gamer 7 iron around 165.

[RickyBobby_PR]

There’s feel that is actual feeling in the hands arms. Many equate the feel to the sound they hear.

One could hot the same spot on the face of a club with 2 different shafts and have 2 different feelings. Sound may fluctuate.

Sound will vary from club to club in the same category. The i500 sound different than the p790s which sounded different than the ap3 in my time hitting them or playing them. 

[Shankster]

My Taylormade RBZ Tour’s “feel” softer than the PING Blueprint irons. The blueprint irons feel solid, they are hard feeling really.

My new PING Glide 1.0 wedge feels softer than a 1025 Steel forged Bridgestone wedge.

All subject to the person holding the club.

[RickyBobby_PR]

23 minutes ago, Middler said:

While it might be partly in my head/tradition, I can definitely feel a significant difference between forged blades and cast clubs. The difference would be less noticeable for better players who hit VERY close to the sweet spot time after time, but I'd contend you can still feel and hear it. Unfortunately I use more of the face on all my clubs than I'd like...

The sound changes on any club when hitting center vs off center. Hit a driver on the sweet spot and compare it to a low heel shot. The feel will change in your hands thru the shaft. The shaft being used will vary the feel with more or less vibration.

i can tell you even better players notice differences in feel when struck in the same spot. Results and feel are aspects of a good fitting. My titleist thursday fitting for irons a few years back came down to feel. I had two shafts that performed identical in numbers but one didn’t feel as good. 

[cnosil]

IMO it isn’t about forged or cast, it is about design. Like putters, feel can be influenced by shaft, grip, thickness of face, where you hit it on the face, material behind the face, etc. All clubs feel different and you can’t say all forged clubs feel one particular way and all cast clubs feel one particular way.

[chisag]

... I'll add that feel is subjective. I have told this story before so I will make it a short version. 

... Back when I first started going to the PGA Show and writing reviews I assumed everyone wanted the softest feeling forged iron. I bought a set of Hogan Apex 99's because I loved the shape and after playing forged CB's I wanted to play some MB's again and these were very highly regarded. Unfortunately I hated the feel. They were very harsh feeling for a MB and I traded them for some new Mizuno MP33's, which might be one of the softest feeling MB's ever made. 

... I was at the range hitting my new MP33's and a young Asian guy was next to me hitting brand new Apex 99's. I asked how he liked them and he said he absolutely loved them. He noticed I was playing MP33's and said he just traded in his MP33's for his Apex because they felt like mush while his Apex were much crisper and cleaner feeling. The real irony is I could not tell exactly where I hit the ball on the face of the Apex because they were so harsh and he could not tell where he hit the ball on the face off his 33's because they were so soft. It was a great lesson early in my review career that feel is not only different for any individual like some thinking the MP33's are very soft or just kinds soft, but players may have completely different opinions on what feel they like. We both thought our irons felt "sweet and dense" but our definitions of sweet and dense was just about opposite. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

15 minutes ago, Middler said:

True. There are always exceptions, but in general forged clubs feel better than cast clubs for most players - even if feel isn’t among their top criteria for choosing irons. 

And I’ve read suggestions that a player couldn’t feel any difference between cast and forged if they design/geometry was the same. But I don’t buy it. The gap has narrowed considerably but the strength, consistency and density are just not the same forged v cast, so you’d have to compensate somehow. If it was just design, you could theoretically make iron heads of a variety of materials. All else equal forged has better feel than cast. Cast is cheaper to produce, more design/geometry options and therefore more forgiveness. There’s a market for both.

The club head doesn’t determine feel. That is sound that gets equates to feel and when many discuss feel they are actually referring to how the ball sounds on contact

[cnosil]

2 hours ago, Middler said:

True. There are always exceptions, but in general forged clubs feel better than cast clubs for most players - even if feel isn’t among their top criteria for choosing irons. 

And I’ve read suggestions that a player couldn’t feel any difference between cast and forged if they design/geometry was the same. But I don’t buy it. The gap has narrowed considerably but the strength, consistency and density are just not the same forged v cast, so you’d have to compensate somehow. If it was just design, you could theoretically make iron heads of a variety of materials. All else equal forged has better feel than cast. Cast is cheaper to produce, more design/geometry options and therefore more forgiveness. There’s a market for both.

That generality may be for you.  For me I have hit lots of clubs as part of most wanted testing and I can't tell the difference.  Clubs just feel different and forged don't necessarily feel any better than cast.  

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, Middler said:

Huh?

The club head when struck by a ball produces a sound. This sound is what people equate to feel. Sound/feel is very subjective. Read thru club reviews and you will read comments on how a club feels/sounds and opinions will vary for the same club. Sound will vary between cast clubs as it will be between forged.

the feel is what gets translated from the vibration upon contact thru the shaft into the hands,arms, body.  

when a ball is properly compressed it sounds pretty much the same regardless of clubhead and feels the same in that one feels nothing compared to a mishit.

shaft has much more to do with feel than a club head. 

[chisag]

On 3/6/2020 at 9:43 AM, Middler said:

While it might be partly in my head/tradition, I can definitely feel a significant difference between forged blades and cast clubs. The difference would be less noticeable for better players who hit VERY close to the sweet spot time after time, but I'd contend you can still feel and hear it. Unfortunately I use more of the face on all my clubs than I'd like...

 

... I think what is missing from this discussion is most forged irons are made from a softer carbon steel. Most cast clubs are not, even though some cast clubs using 8620 carbon steel which is the hardest feeling carbon steel. I would bet money that if Vokey made a F7 forged wedge out of 8620 you would not be able to tell any difference in feel compared to his cast 8620 wedges. But the exact same SM7 wedge forged with 1020 carbon steel would definitely feel softer than his 8620 cast wedges. But in most cases you are correct Middler, Forged will feel softer than Cast because of the steel being used, which equates to better feel for most. 

 

[cnosil]

19 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... I think what is missing from this discussion is most forged irons are made from a softer carbon steel. Most cast clubs are not, even though some cast clubs using 8620 carbon steel which is the hardest feeling carbon steel. I would bet money that if Vokey made a F7 forged wedge out of 8620 you would not be able to tell any difference in feel compared to his cast 8620 wedges. But the exact same F7 wedge forged with 1020 carbon steel would definitely feel softer than his 8620 cast wedges. But in most cases you are correct Middler, Forged will feel softer than Cast because of the steel being used, which equates to better feel for most. 

 

While materials do potentially impact feel,  just like design, shaft, grip, etc.;   some people "feel" the difference and some don't.  I fall into the spectrum on not being able to distinguish forged vs cast.   Yes they will feel different,  but I couldn't tell you which it was unless it is stamped on the club.      

[chisag]

1 hour ago, cnosil said:

While materials do potentially impact feel,  just like design, shaft, grip, etc.;   some people "feel" the difference and some don't.  I fall into the spectrum on not being able to distinguish forged vs cast.   Yes they will feel different,  but I couldn't tell you which it was unless it is stamped on the club.      

 

... Haha, like everything in this wacky game I think feel is a blessing and a curse. I will not play a club because of poor feel, even if the numbers are excellent because I can find another that feels good to me with the same performance. I think players that lack feel (not for shots but for club/shaft/ball preferences) are at a distinct advantage as it takes one more variable out of the equation. If a golf ball performs very well but feels too soft/too hard when putting, I hear many with a high sense of feel say they won't play it. 
 
... I hit the original Ping LS more consistently than any driver ever on Demo Day. Exact same trajectory shot after shot. But I hated the sound and feel. I decided to swallow my preferences and picked one up and my first 18 I was struggling with it. Just looking down at it was discomforting but a push fade into the right rough had me thinking why am I playing this tin can that looks like a 1958 Cadillac with fins and ridges and sounds like glass breaking? Exact same shot with my Fly Z and I am thinking "bad swing". In fairness I was warmed up and swinging well on Demo Day so my opinion was potentially faulty to begin with. But especially for someone like you that demo's so many different clubs, making your decision on performance alone (although I am sure it has to look decent behind the ball) I think can be a real advantage. 

[chisag]

4 minutes ago, Middler said:

Same here, I just hit the new Mavrik standard irons - I wouldn’t play them versus what I have if someone paid me good money. Total unsatisfying feel even when pured. Way back when the Ping Eye2 took the world by storm, it felt like hitting a golf ball with a garden implement to me, completely different and obnoxious. As you and I noted, the metals are different so they can’t feel exactly the same. I can’t imagine not being able to feel the difference, but I have no reason whatsoever to doing those who say they can’t.

 

... I have 4 sets of irons that I play and all of them are forged too one degree or another. Z Forged are a solid one piece forging and feel as good as any irons I have played. Sweet, soft and dense forged carbon steel and my favorites for feel. P760's are a solid 1025 carbon steel forging in the pw-8 iron and then a figged body but thin forged face made of an alloy in the 7-4 irons. The short irons feel awesome and the mid/long irons feel very good, just not as nice as the solid short irons. My Cobra Forged Tour irons are a multi material iron with a forged body and thinner forged face but a cavity with urethane dampening that give them an excellent feel. Maybe my favorite all around irons and a lot of that has to do with the feel.  

... My primary set of P790's feel the least solidly forged of the bunch but provides the best performance, all things considered. The thin face provides explosive, consistent distance but also producers the least solid feel of all my irons. Just a little dead on mishits compared to my other 3 sets but enough feedback that I know when I miss them. The high launch and low spin make them ideal for the windy conditions here in Chicago's suburbs and at 66, the little added distance ain't a bad senior thing at all. 
 

... I have been playing forged irons for as long as I can remember and would have to go back 30 years or more for any cast irons I played. I am very much a feel player both in my game and my equipment and I think once you get accustomed to the feel of a soft forged carbon steel iron, it is just about impossible to go back to anything else. And again, I am a little jealous of those that don't have the same sense of feel requirements and can play whatever works best regardless of feel. 

[RI_Redneck]

I understand many relate sound with feel, but I've always considered "feel" as information I get through my hands and "sound" as information I get through my ears. They're different. That being said, A solid center shot on any club typically gives me nearly nothing through my hands. The ball just goes. Off-center shots, OTOH, give considerable feedback in the form of vibration. As for sound, the softer the club the quieter the sound at impact. Played some AP1s a couple of years ago and they sounded somewhat clicky, much like the MP25s I have. My MP4s, MP5s, MP69s and Cobra ACPs are much quieter on center impacts.

BT

[Poguemon]

I've been playing around with different types of irons recently my gamers are the rogue pros and I can easily feel the different between a forged mb callway design and the rogue pros. It is due to the dampening materials most companies put right behind the face to help with sound and feel. any modern day straight forced blade like the mb's will feel a lot different and the difference only wides the more off center the hit.

Edited March 17, 2020 by Poguemon

[chisag]

24 minutes ago, RI_Redneck said:

I understand many relate sound with feel, but I've always considered "feel" as information I get through my hands and "sound" as information I get through my ears. They're different. That being said, A solid center shot on any club typically gives me nearly nothing through my hands. The ball just goes. Off-center shots, OTOH, give considerable feedback in the form of vibration. As for sound, the softer the club the quieter the sound at impact. Played some AP1s a couple of years ago and they sounded somewhat clicky, much like the MP25s I have. My MP4s, MP5s, MP69s and Cobra ACPs are much quieter on center impacts.

BT

 

... A long time ago when the first non wound balls were released I tried a feel and sound experiment. I hit some pitches with my wound Mafli HT-90 and I believe it was a Spaulding Tour Edition solid ball, I could be wrong about this ball but it was a solid ball, and used ear plugs and ear muffs on top of them to completely hide the sound. I have a pretty high sense of feel and the difference between the two was very obvious. But once I put on the ear plugs/muffs and had my pard put a ball in front of me with the logo down it was very difficult to tell the difference. My first several attempts I really could not tell any difference but after several more pitches I was able to tell a very slight difference in feel. But it took all my focus and the difference was just barely noticeable. 

... While this experiment was anecdotal I think we equate sound with feel much more than we realize. That said, I did not do a solid carbon steel MB comparison to a thin faced perimeter cast club head but my guess is the difference would be minimal wearing the plugs/muffs. At the time I realized it was kind of a moot point because I was never going to play with my hearing disabled and without doing that, the difference was quite obvious and in the end that is all that matters. 

[mysterygolfguy]

The word "feel" to me is EVERYTHING I get from hitting a club. If you have a club that sounds like your hitting rocks with a baseball bat chances are you aren't going to like hitting it, and the feel you get in the hands will sometimes correlate with the sound, sometimes not.

Also the looks get me too. I like a nice compact forged iron.

I'm a forged iron kind of guy, and cast clubs just feel....whack. Just a totally different feel.