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1 hour ago, edingc said:

Our county is finally starting to see exponential growth in cases, basically quadrupling from low hundreds to nearly 1,500 presumptive cases in the past two weeks. I do fear that because the western side of Michigan was not initially hit hard like Detroit and surrounding areas, that we are going to be in a bad situation over the coming weeks. A lot of the opposition to the shelter-in-place order around here was based on the fact that we had few cases. Now, the order is being relaxed/lifted and people are going to be out and about like crazy just as the numbers are rising.

 

 

This is the part that I fight with every day, to open everything up or not. We are approaching the tipping point in my mind, economically we can't continue this way. But on the other hand if we lose millions of people the economy shrinks as well. It's frustrating. I am still amazed that the world as a whole still doesn't have a complete understanding of the virus. 

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20 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

This is the part that I fight with every day, to open everything up or not. We are approaching the tipping point in my mind, economically we can't continue this way. But on the other hand if we lose millions of people the economy shrinks as well. It's frustrating. I am still amazed that the world as a whole still doesn't have a complete understanding of the virus. 

 

... I am amazed at how politically divisive this country has become. Add the Russian/Chinese cyber attacks and it is a complete mess. There is zero direction from the federal government concerning Covid 19. You cannot have a nationwide pandemic and leave to up to individual states to make their own rules when we have interstate travel. We are fractured as a country and no longer the UNITED States of America, just 50 random states. No longer do JFK's inspirational words "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" apply to many that live in what are called blue states or red states. WTF? We used to just have states that were united in times of crises.  

... You would think in the face of a worldwide pandemic, common sense would prevail. Obviously we can't have everyone stay in their homes forever. Equally as obvious,  we can't just say "Coast is clear, everyone back to life as normal". States like Georgia make themselves as well as the rest of the country unsafe. Common sense says begin slowly and see how things work out. We already have grocery stores, hardware stores, gas stations open and providing services and jobs. And we already have people ignoring the rules when 80,000 flock to the beach in Orange County Ca forcing the Governor to close all beaches again because people are selfish and have little community integrity. You drive to the beach and it is crowded with no social distancing? Turn the car around and go home, don't think OK everyone else is ignoring the rules so I'm going to ignore them too. 

... I guess my point is I would like to think those that follow the rules to combat Covid 19 for the good of their fellow man are the majority. If everyone followed simple safety rules it would be difficult in the short run, and for some that literally live paycheck to paycheck it might even border on catastrophic. But it would be over much sooner and we could start slowly adding business and jobs back into our lives. Maybe restaurants with tables spaced 8 feet apart. If we go I month with little increase in Covid cases, add tables and make it 4 feet apart. The same common sense would apply to other business, slowly getting back to what will be the new normal. But sadly it only takes a small minority that think the rules don't apply to them to keep spreading Covid and the cycle will continue, perhaps coming back even worse for everyone. 

... I certainly don't have all the answers and those smarter than I could probably add something or find a few holes in what I have written but I feel strongly that we are all in this together or we are all on our own. And as long as we have those at the top sowing division and not unity, along with most media outlets feeding that division and foreign interference doing everything they can to widen that division, we have little hope of becoming the UNITED States Of America again and will remain the DIVIDED Staes Of America. . 

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My wife was notified by her employer today, effective July 1st, her out of pocket health insurance premiums would more than triple.  Which is noteworthy in-and-of itself.  Factor in, her employer is a government entity, it gets much more noteworthy.  At least in my eyes.

Are dominoes beginning to fall in terms of economic impact of this situation?  Difficult not to think one has something to do with the other! 

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54 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... I am amazed at how politically divisive this country has become. Add the Russian/Chinese cyber attacks and it is a complete mess. There is zero direction from the federal government concerning Covid 19. You cannot have a nationwide pandemic and leave to up to individual states to make their own rules when we have interstate travel. We are fractured as a country and no longer the UNITED States of America, just 50 random states. No longer do JFK's inspirational words "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" apply to many that live in what are called blue states or red states. WTF? We used to just have states that were united in times of crises.  

... You would think in the face of a worldwide pandemic, common sense would prevail. Obviously we can't have everyone stay in their homes forever. Equally as obvious,  we can't just say "Coast is clear, everyone back to life as normal". States like Georgia make themselves as well as the rest of the country unsafe. Common sense says begin slowly and see how things work out. We already have grocery stores, hardware stores, gas stations open and providing services and jobs. And we already have people ignoring the rules when 80,000 flock to the beach in Orange County Ca forcing the Governor to close all beaches again because people are selfish and have little community integrity. You drive to the beach and it is crowded with no social distancing? Turn the car around and go home, don't think OK everyone else is ignoring the rules so I'm going to ignore them too. 

... I guess my point is I would like to think those that follow the rules to combat Covid 19 for the good of their fellow man are the majority. If everyone followed simple safety rules it would be difficult in the short run, and for some that literally live paycheck to paycheck it might even border on catastrophic. But it would be over much sooner and we could start slowly adding business and jobs back into our lives. Maybe restaurants with tables spaced 8 feet apart. If we go I month with little increase in Covid cases, add tables and make it 4 feet apart. The same common sense would apply to other business, slowly getting back to what will be the new normal. But sadly it only takes a small minority that think the rules don't apply to them to keep spreading Covid and the cycle will continue, perhaps coming back even worse for everyone. 

... I certainly don't have all the answers and those smarter than I could probably add something or find a few holes in what I have written but I feel strongly that we are all in this together or we are all on our own. And as long as we have those at the top sowing division and not unity, along with most media outlets feeding that division and foreign interference doing everything they can to widen that division, we have little hope of becoming the UNITED States Of America again and will remain the DIVIDED Staes Of America. . 

Everyone misinterprets the two-party system of government in the United States.  It's not left or right, red or blue or even Republican or Democrat........it's divide and conquer!!!!!

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2 hours ago, THEZIPR23 said:

This is the part that I fight with every day, to open everything up or not. We are approaching the tipping point in my mind, economically we can't continue this way. But on the other hand if we lose millions of people the economy shrinks as well. It's frustrating. I am still amazed that the world as a whole still doesn't have a complete understanding of the virus. 

I understand that a lot of the increase in numbers is due to increased testing, and that's a positive for a couple reasons, namely that we are finally testing more and that more cases means the actual death rate is a lot less than the nine percent that Michigan is dealing with right now. (I know we know enough to know that the death rate isn''t THAT high.)

I've been keeping a close eye on hospital bed and ventilator numbers and it's scary to think that our region, which includes Grand Rapids, a metro area of almost one million people, has a whopping 127 ICU beds available at the moment.

Frustrating is the right word for it. It's just not a good situation no matter how you look at it.

 

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9 minutes ago, edingc said:

I've been keeping a close eye on hospital bed and ventilator numbers and it's scary to think that our region, which includes Grand Rapids, a metro area of almost one million people, has a whopping 127 ICU beds available at the moment.

 

It's the same way here, some frontline workers have even been furloughed. And unfortunately we will never know the true answer to the question of, Did we over react by closing everything down to ensure hospital beds or because we locked everything down the hospitals haven't been overloaded. 

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That's pretty cool, what did you manufacture? I build cars, but I can honestly say I don't know much about the different tiers of manufacturers. 
 
I'm hoping it'll get going soon, but the top priority is that it can be done safely for everyone involved. 

We’re the company nobody sees. We are metal mfg company that is a “job shop”, we don’t have our own product line we make custom from 2 Prototypes to 25 million plus parts. Everything we make/made is relatively small. We even do part design when companies are in trouble with a non-working product. Automotive was about 25% of our business until NAFTA and we lost 15% of that. Medical parts remains about 20%. Can’t say a heck of a lot I’m still under NDA.


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8 minutes ago, Rickp said:

Can’t say a heck of a lot I’m still under NDA.

Folks that recently retire often forget about those 🤐.  

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11 minutes ago, Rickp said:


We’re the company nobody sees. We are metal mfg company that is a “job shop”, we don’t have our own product line we make custom from 2 Prototypes to 25 million plus parts. Everything we make/made is relatively small. We even do part design when companies are in trouble with a non-working product. Automotive was about 25% of our business until NAFTA and we lost 15% of that. Medical parts remains about 20%. Can’t say a heck of a lot I’m still under NDA.


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I understand that, it can be a fine line to walk and I appreciate the answer. I honestly had to go through and check the information I have on procedures because internal memos are private and make sure there was a press release on their procedures. 

The small stuff matters in automotive, it all plays a part when it comes to performance and safety. 

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Folks that recently retire often forget about those .  

It’s an important Document. Mine was for 5years after I retired. They came back and extended it and made it with my while. I wasn’t going to do anything but their call.


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I understand that, it can be a fine line to walk and I appreciate the answer. I honestly had to go through and check the information I have on procedures because internal memos are private and make sure there was a press release on their procedures. 
The small stuff matters in automotive, it all plays a part when it comes to performance and safety. 

Medical may be worse than Automotive, maybe.


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Spoke on a Zoom meeting with a friend who's an EMT. In his words, the official statistics for our area (Greater Cincinnati) are pure fiction. There is a large nursing home in his area. Officially, they have two cases and no deaths. His station has made over 100 runs there since this started. He estimates 40-50 COVID deaths. We're allowed to use a bicycle for exercise, and going by there was on one of my routes. Intellectually, I know the street in front of the place is OK, but emotionally I can't go that way any more.

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2 minutes ago, Siamese Moose said:

Spoke on a Zoom meeting with a friend who's an EMT. In his words, the official statistics for our area (Greater Cincinnati) are pure fiction. There is a large nursing home in his area. Officially, they have two cases and no deaths. His station has made over 100 runs there since this started. He estimates 40-50 COVID deaths. We're allowed to use a bicycle for exercise, and going by there was on one of my routes. Intellectually, I know the street in front of the place is OK, but emotionally I can't go that way any more.

The problem is COVID isn't killing people itself, it is the diseases like pneumonia that comes from it. The pneumonia happens to be worse because of the virus and makes everything worse.

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Read the anti bodies studies from USC, Stanford and NY, read what the French female doctor is saying. There are many experts saying it’s time to open up and not necessarily just on a limited basis. They have some good info and data.

Look at Sweden who had no mandatory stay at home and how their death per 100k is on par with Ireland who has received praise for their handling. This information isn’t being reported by the news media. A video press conference from 2 doctors in NorCal was taken down by YouTube that was an hour long with good info.

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Posted (edited)

I'm of the opinion that the stay at home mandate was way over played. I agree with a certain demographic being safe and staying home, but the majority of us should have remained working. This country will be lucky to come out of this with a functioning economy, let alone a vibrant one. This has set the country back at least 5 years.... and it was totally unnecessary, IMO.

I've listened to so many Doctors and medical "experts" that I'm swimming in confusion. I'm too lazy to go back and look, but I think I might have found this on here. This makes more sense to me than the piles of misinformation that I've heard and read over the last six weeks. It also proves to me, at least, that this country freaked out and shot itself in the foot. This never needed to happen.

 

Edited by silver & black
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1 minute ago, silver & black said:

I'm of the opinion that the stay at home mandate was way over played. I agree with a certain demographic being safe and staying home, but the majority of us should have remained working. This country will be lucky to come out of this with a functioning economy, let alone a a vibrant one. This has set the country back at least 5 years.... and it was totally unnecessary, IMO.

I've listened to so many Doctors and medical "experts" that I'm swimming in confusion. I'm too lazy to go back and look, but I think I might found this on here. This makes more sense to me than the piles of misinformation that I've heard and read over the last six weeks. It also proves to me, at least, that this country freaked out and shot itself in the foot. This never neede to happen.

 

Couldn’t agree more. Is it serious? Of course lives are at risk but there is something to be said for the extremes that are going on. Just getting tired of this and not looking forward to the repercussions coming

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Oh my, there is so much about this subject and many of the posts here I want to debate - but have chosen not to.  I have a hard time tip-toeing around certain subject matter and would certainly offend some, many, all...dunno.  Situations like this are typically very dynamic and at times it has seemed like we're simply making it up as we go.  Way too much information and misinformation inundating us - a plethora of media outlets scrambling to be the first to report.  Add the political motives/optics and things get even worse - further scrambled.

I think Adley sums it up pretty well.

 

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9 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Oh my, there is so much about this subject and many of the posts here I want to debate - but have chosen not to.  I have a hard time tip-toeing around certain subject matter and would certainly offend some, many, all...dunno.  Situations like this are typically very dynamic and at times it has seemed like we're simply making it up as we go.  Way too much information and misinformation inundating us - a plethora of media outlets scrambling to be the first to report.  Add the political motives/optics and things get even worse - further scrambled.

I think Adley sums it up pretty well.

 

Perfect...lol!

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8 minutes ago, silver & black said:

I'm of the opinion that the stay at home mandate was way over played. I agree with a certain demographic being safe and staying home, but the majority of us should have remained working. This country will be lucky to come out of this with a functioning economy, let alone a vibrant one. This has set the country back at least 5 years.... and it was totally unnecessary, IMO.

I've listened to so many Doctors and medical "experts" that I'm swimming in confusion. I'm too lazy to go back and look, but I think I might have found this on here. This makes more sense to me than the piles of misinformation that I've heard and read over the last six weeks. It also proves to me, at least, that this country freaked out and shot itself in the foot. This never needed to happen.

 

 

... These guys are more than a little controversial. There are many, many more doctors in the line of fire pleading to slow down the spread. Talk to anyone in the health care industry in the major metropolitan areas that were hit the hardest that still cry or drink themselves to sleep. Talk to anyone who lost a loved one or the many more that were touch and go on ventilators. Talk to those that thought they didn't have pre existing conditions and got sick enough to be court death. 

... I think 2 things made Covid 19 very scary. Covid spread around the world in an amazingly short period of time. The US went from no cases in early February to 1,067,000 cases that we know of in less than 2 months. The asymptomatic carriers were the scariest and the only choice was keeping them at home. The 2nd thing is we still don't know enough about Covid 19 to make any definitive statements. I just don't see how the US had any choice and it is easy to make the argument that without SAH orders, the US would have suffered the same fate as Sweeden, with many more deaths and the US healthcare system, that is built for profit not caring for the sick, would have been completely over burdened and then more people suffering from anything else would not get the care they needed to survive. It would have been a nightmare, for all that only some have had too endure. 

...  There were really no easy answers and what was needed in NYC, Chicago, Detroit, NO, SF, LA, Seattle, Atlanta, Miami to name just some hit hard, might not have been needed at all in rural areas and some smaller cities. 2355 dead in Illinois in less than 2 months. My county has 55k residents and 2492 positive cases have been recorded. How many asymptomatic non tested residents are out there? I truly believe if we had not stayed at home that number would be exponentially higher. 

... All that said, I certainly understand the economic hardship has been really bad, and for some catastrophic. There were just bad choices so which bad choice was best? Those with a small business or family working from paycheck to paycheck are really suffering. I know my 92 yr old Mom is hunkered down in Bluffton SC and I have little doubt with a compromised immune system, she would not survive Covid 19. She lives with my sister and her husband and if they both worked without restrictions I would be very afraid they would bring the virus home. Again, just an awful situation with no easy answers and I understand anyones frustration on either side of how this has been handled. These are dark times ....

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13 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... These guys are more than a little controversial. There are many, many more doctors in the line of fire pleading to slow down the spread. Talk to anyone in the health care industry in the major metropolitan areas that were hit the hardest that still cry or drink themselves to sleep. Talk to anyone who lost a loved one or the many more that were touch and go on ventilators. Talk to those that thought they didn't have pre existing conditions and got sick enough to be court death. 

... I think 2 things made Covid 19 very scary. Covid spread around the world in an amazingly short period of time. The US went from no cases in early February to 1,067,000 cases that we know of in less than 2 months. The asymptomatic carriers were the scariest and the only choice was keeping them at home. The 2nd thing is we still don't know enough about Covid 19 to make any definitive statements. I just don't see how the US had any choice and it is easy to make the argument that without SAH orders, the US would have suffered the same fate as Sweeden, with many more deaths and the US healthcare system, that is built for profit not caring for the sick, would have been completely over burdened and then more people suffering from anything else would not get the care they needed to survive. It would have been a nightmare, for all that only some have had too endure. 

...  There were really no easy answers and what was needed in NYC, Chicago, Detroit, NO, SF, LA, Seattle, Atlanta, Miami to name just some hit hard, might not have been needed at all in rural areas and some smaller cities. 2355 dead in Illinois in less than 2 months. My county has 55k residents and 2492 positive cases have been recorded. How many asymptomatic non tested residents are out there? I truly believe if we had not stayed at home that number would be exponentially higher. 

... All that said, I certainly understand the economic hardship has been really bad, and for some catastrophic. There were just bad choices so which bad choice was best? Those with a small business or family working from paycheck to paycheck are really suffering. I know my 92 yr old Mom is hunkered down in Bluffton SC and I have little doubt with a compromised immune system, she would not survive Covid 19. She lives with my sister and her husband and if they both worked without restrictions I would be very afraid they would bring the virus home. Again, just an awful situation with no easy answers and I understand anyones frustration on either side of how this has been handled. These are dark times ....

I've seen many many cases in person going from barely feeling sick to critical. I have watched the ERs I got to often send staff home daily because no one is going to the hospital. The problem being we have had people with curable diseases not call because they are afraid and have critical problems that they wouldn't have. Yes some areas are getting hit harder than others including the city I work in, but I know there will be more problems to come. Handled better yes, do things better yes, lacking a herd immunity due to everyone being locked down absolutely. 

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