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15 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... These guys are more than a little controversial. There are many, many more doctors in the line of fire pleading to slow down the spread. Talk to anyone in the health care industry in the major metropolitan areas that were hit the hardest that still cry or drink themselves to sleep. Talk to anyone who lost a loved one or the many more that were touch and go on ventilators. Talk to those that thought they didn't have pre existing conditions and got sick enough to be court death. 

... I think 2 things made Covid 19 very scary. Covid spread around the world in an amazingly short period of time. The US went from no cases in early February to 1,067,000 cases that we know of in less than 2 months. The asymptomatic carriers were the scariest and the only choice was keeping them at home. The 2nd thing is we still don't know enough about Covid 19 to make any definitive statements. I just don't see how the US had any choice and it is easy to make the argument that without SAH orders, the US would have suffered the same fate as Sweeden, with many more deaths and the US healthcare system, that is built for profit not caring for the sick, would have been completely over burdened and then more people suffering from anything else would not get the care they needed to survive. It would have been a nightmare, for all that only some have had too endure. 

...  There were really no easy answers and what was needed in NYC, Chicago, Detroit, NO, SF, LA, Seattle, Atlanta, Miami to name just some hit hard, might not have been needed at all in rural areas and some smaller cities. 2355 dead in Illinois in less than 2 months. My county has 55k residents and 2492 positive cases have been recorded. How many asymptomatic non tested residents are out there? I truly believe if we had not stayed at home that number would be exponentially higher. 

... All that said, I certainly understand the economic hardship has been really bad, and for some catastrophic. There were just bad choices so which bad choice was best? Those with a small business or family working from paycheck to paycheck are really suffering. I know my 92 yr old Mom is hunkered down in Bluffton SC and I have little doubt with a compromised immune system, she would not survive Covid 19. She lives with my sister and her husband and if they both worked without restrictions I would be very afraid they would bring the virus home. Again, just an awful situation with no easy answers and I understand anyones frustration on either side of how this has been handled. These are dark times ....

I really can't disagree with you. I don't honestly think there is a "right" answer. I am fortunate in that I am receiving my state unemployment and the fed. $600.00 a week on top of it. I  also am frugal with my money. I can live 6 months and longer if need be. I would really rather be working and earning my way... and I feel I still should be. This could have been handled better from the start. As I said, certain demographics should have/absolutely stay home! The rest of us could/should have remained on the job. That is only my opinion, I understand that.

This whole thing has been mishandled from the start. POTUS understand the economic destruction. The Doctors/medical experts are of a singular focus... and that is a good thing. But... they aren't concerned with the aftermath of this. They are only concerned only eradicating the virus. I respect that, but there is waaayyy more to it than just that. 

Maybe I'm in the minority, But I side with the "cure is worse than the disease" crowd on this.

What will be the mortality rate of the by product of this? Divorce, mental health, suicide, drug and alcohol addition, domestic violence,etc...?

I have no answers, either.... just opinions.

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, silver & black said:

I really can't disagree with you. I don't honestly think there is a "right" answer. I am fortunate in that I am receiving my state unemployment and the fed. $600.00 a week on top of it. I  also am frugal with my money. I can live 6 months and longer if need be. I would really rather be working and earning my way... and I feel I still should be. This could have been handled better from the start. As I said, certain demographics should have/absolutely stay home! The rest of us could/should have remained on the job. That is only NY opinion, I understand that.

This whole thing has been mishandled from the start. POTUS understand the economic destruction. The Doctors/medical experts are of a singular focus... and that is a good thing. But... they aren't concerned with the aftermath of this. They are only concerned only eradicating the virus. I respect that, but there is waaayyy more to it than just that. 

Maybe I'm in the minority, But I side with the "cure is worse than the disease" crowd on this.

What will be the mortality rate of the by product of this? Divorce, mental health, suicide, drug and alcohol addition, domestic violence,etc...?

I have no answers, either.... just opinions.

 

 

 

I don't think you're in the minority and your opinion is respected and honestly probably not that far off from what is right.

The one part that drives me nuts is the blame placed on the leaders and their handling of it, red or blue. I can't say what is right or what is wrong as I have no idea, but 90+ days into this and still nobody has a clear understanding of what we are dealing with. Which means that there is no blueprint and there is no path to fixing this because the path is created by something we can't see and don't understand. 

When you build cabinets you have a plan of attack and steps to make that happen. But if I changed the wood type and size your plans must change. That is what is happening with this. (terrible analogy but I hope you get my point). 

 

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I appreciate that the disagreements here are fundamentally aligned with the same goal...everyone getting back to a healthy normal state of living.

If I can to piggy back on what [mention]tommc23 [/mention]had to say. We both have a unique insight into this as a product of our work. Daily briefings from City & County Health Departments, Agency memos as well as just being on scene and seeing sick patients and their families.

The proliferation of this virus is like nothing we’ve ever seen. Combine that with so many unknowns, I don’t know of any other responsible way that public health could advocate for each of us.

If there is a way to mandate 100% adherence to a face covering to reduce transmission, I believe that would be the quickest way to get us back to opening up prior to vaccines.

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14 hours ago, silver & black said:

I really can't disagree with you. I don't honestly think there is a "right" answer. This could have been handled better from the start. As I said, certain demographics should have/absolutely stay home! The rest of us could/should have remained on the job. That is only my opinion, I understand that.

This whole thing has been mishandled from the start. POTUS understand the economic destruction. The Doctors/medical experts are of a singular focus... and that is a good thing. But... they aren't concerned with the aftermath of this. They are only concerned only eradicating the virus. I respect that, but there is waaayyy more to it than just that. 

I have no answers, either.... just opinions.


... Now how much better shape and how to handle Stay At Home is anyones guess and we have no idea how bad it would have been if measures were put in place in January. I keep hammering home this point though. The most serious threat from Covid 19 is how stealthy it is residing in perfectly healthy people that spread it to other perfectly healthy people that eventually spread it to those not asymptomatic AND those in demographic that was very susceptible to death and/or severe sickness. Estimates are there are anywhere from 30-75% of those with the virus that are asymptomatic. Even the low end at 30% is devastating if they infect others. If asymptomatic people just went to work and socialized like normal, they would bring the virus home to those that were not socializing or working. I have a 29 yr old son living with us at the moment and he recognizes he can't go out in public because he could get the virus with zero symptoms and pass it to my wife and I. While I have no pre existing conditions, I am 67 so my wife and I could certainly suffer severe illness or worse if my son brought it home. I am just blown away by how fast and how far Covid 19 spread and it is all because asymptomatic people thought they were fine traveling from country to country, state to state and city to city. Look what has happened in meat plants around the country when they were forced to work and not stay at home. 

... And just remember Doctors and Health Care workers are people too. They certainly all have friends and family out of work or have a small business that may close and never open again. I don't think they are single minded, concentrating on the virus to the exclusion of life. But like you said, all we have are opinions and now more than ever it is crucial we respect each other regardless of how we see these dark times.  

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39 minutes ago, silver & black said:

I really can't disagree with you. I don't honestly think there is a "right" answer. I am fortunate in that I am receiving my state unemployment and the fed. $600.00 a week on top of it. I  also am frugal with my money. I can live 6 months and longer if need be. I would really rather be working and earning my way... and I feel I still should be. This could have been handled better from the start. As I said, certain demographics should have/absolutely stay home! The rest of us could/should have remained on the job. That is only my opinion, I understand that.

This whole thing has been mishandled from the start. POTUS understand the economic destruction. The Doctors/medical experts are of a singular focus... and that is a good thing. But... they aren't concerned with the aftermath of this. They are only concerned only eradicating the virus. I respect that, but there is waaayyy more to it than just that. 

Maybe I'm in the minority, But I side with the "cure is worse than the disease" crowd on this.

What will be the mortality rate of the by product of this? Divorce, mental health, suicide, drug and alcohol addition, domestic violence,etc...?

I have no answers, either.... just opinions.

 

 

 

Ehhhh, I see the points both sides make, then I see all of the dead people in New York and I'm glad we were forced to stay home. Not going to get into the political side of things again, but I believe some things could've been handled better in January. Also, it's not like we were the only ones in the entire world who stayed home, so these conspiracy theories and people rallying in protest to reopen just don't make sense to me. I think that we hear too many opinions from people who haven't caught this stuff, been on a respirator fighting for their lives, or those who took care of them. The people you see yelling to reopen America are, from what I've seen, not doctors and nurses. Until I see ER nurses chanting on the streets to open the world back up, I'm going to do my best to keep my butt from having to visit them in the hospital.

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3 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... Yup, all we have at this point is our opinions. I agree this could have been handled MUCH better. If POTUS had not got rid of the Pandemic Response team we would have been in better shape from the beginning. They did have blueprints for a pandemic and they were ignored. The prior administration produced a briefing that was ignored. POTUS was warned in January Covid 19 was coming and we needed to prepare and it was ignored. 12 different briefings were presented in Jan/Feb and POTUS ignored them, still saying it would disappear in late February and ignoring the title wave that was already in sight. So I agree, had POTUS handled Covid muckiest h better from the beginning we would be in better shape. 

I'll give you that. But... if this is too political, please MODS, delete it. I have no intention of going political here... just making a point.

POTUS was in the midst of being impeached at that time. I'm sure his focus was on other things???? Coronavirus, although warned about, didn't seem too serious at that time.... on either side of the ailse? I mean................ go to China Town and visit.... it's perfectly safe???

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I'm going to bow out of this as of now. I don't know how to continue without getting political and pissing people off, so I'll just wish you all the best of luck and hope our country can get through this.

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2 minutes ago, yungkory said:

Ehhhh, I see the points both sides make, then I see all of the dead people in New York and I'm glad we were forced to stay home. Not going to get into the political side of things again, but I believe some things could've been handled better in January. Also, it's not like we were the only ones in the entire world who stayed home, so these conspiracy theories and people rallying in protest to reopen just don't make sense to me. I think that we hear too many opinions from people who haven't caught this stuff, been on a respirator fighting for their lives, or those who took care of them. The people you see yelling to reopen America are, from what I've seen, not doctors and nurses. Until I see ER nurses chanting on the streets to open the world back up, I'm going to do my best to keep my butt from having to visit them in the hospital.

 

... I' would not be happy if I were you yungkory. You are on an island and isolating the virus would have been easy if they shut down travel not only from the states but island to island. Isolate, test and then back to work! Then the only question would be when can you open up again. 

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6 minutes ago, yungkory said:

Until I see ER nurses chanting on the streets to open the world back up, I'm going to do my best to keep my butt from having to visit them in the hospital.

They are out there. just do a search.

I already broke my rule...lol. Done now.

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1 hour ago, chisag said:

 

... These guys are more than a little controversial. There are many, many more doctors in the line of fire pleading to slow down the spread. Talk to anyone in the health care industry in the major metropolitan areas that were hit the hardest that still cry or drink themselves to sleep. Talk to anyone who lost a loved one or the many more that were touch and go on ventilators. Talk to those that thought they didn't have pre existing conditions and got sick enough to be court death. 

... I think 2 things made Covid 19 very scary. Covid spread around the world in an amazingly short period of time. The US went from no cases in early February to 1,067,000 cases that we know of in less than 2 months. The asymptomatic carriers were the scariest and the only choice was keeping them at home. The 2nd thing is we still don't know enough about Covid 19 to make any definitive statements. I just don't see how the US had any choice and it is easy to make the argument that without SAH orders, the US would have suffered the same fate as Sweeden, with many more deaths and the US healthcare system, that is built for profit not caring for the sick, would have been completely over burdened and then more people suffering from anything else would not get the care they needed to survive. It would have been a nightmare, for all that only some have had too endure. 

...  There were really no easy answers and what was needed in NYC, Chicago, Detroit, NO, SF, LA, Seattle, Atlanta, Miami to name just some hit hard, might not have been needed at all in rural areas and some smaller cities. 2355 dead in Illinois in less than 2 months. My county has 55k residents and 2492 positive cases have been recorded. How many asymptomatic non tested residents are out there? I truly believe if we had not stayed at home that number would be exponentially higher. 

... All that said, I certainly understand the economic hardship has been really bad, and for some catastrophic. There were just bad choices so which bad choice was best? Those with a small business or family working from paycheck to paycheck are really suffering. I know my 92 yr old Mom is hunkered down in Bluffton SC and I have little doubt with a compromised immune system, she would not survive Covid 19. She lives with my sister and her husband and if they both worked without restrictions I would be very afraid they would bring the virus home. Again, just an awful situation with no easy answers and I understand anyones frustration on either side of how this has been handled. These are dark times ....

Look at the data including the video posted above, the anti bodies studies and other data that breaks out deaths by age groups. You will most Americans probably had it and recovered, the deaths are coming from the elderly and those of all age groups with underlying conditions and in any places many deaths are coming from nursing homes. 
 

while you make thing those doctors are controversial they are high respected in California and they have concurrence from numerous doctors in California

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I'm going to bow out of this as of now. I don't know how to continue without getting political and pissing people off, so I'll just wish you all the best of luck and hope our country can get through this.

Me too.


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1 hour ago, chisag said:

 

... Yup, all we have at this point is our opinions. I agree this could have been handled MUCH better. If POTUS had not got rid of the Pandemic Response team we would have been in better shape from the beginning. They did have blueprints for a pandemic and they were ignored. The prior administration produced a briefing that was ignored. POTUS was warned in January Covid 19 was coming and we needed to prepare and it was ignored. 12 different briefings were presented in Jan/Feb and POTUS ignored them, still saying it would disappear in late February and ignoring the title wave that was already in sight. So I agree, had POTUS handled Covid muckiest h better from the beginning we would be in better shape. 

... Now how much better shape and how to handle Stay At Home is anyones guess and we have no idea how bad it would have been if measures were put in place in January. I keep hammering home this point though. The most serious threat from Covid 19 is how stealthy it is residing in perfectly healthy people that spread it to other perfectly healthy people that eventually spread it to those not asymptomatic AND those in demographic that was very susceptible to death and/or severe sickness. Estimates are there are anywhere from 30-75% of those with the virus that are asymptomatic. Even the low end at 30% is devastating if they infect others. If asymptomatic people just went to work and socialized like normal, they would bring the virus home to those that were not socializing or working. I have a 29 yr old son living with us at the moment and he recognizes he can't go out in public because he could get the virus with zero symptoms and pass it to my wife and I. While I have no pre existing conditions, I am 67 so my wife and I could certainly suffer severe illness or worse if my son brought it home. I am just blown away by how fast and how far Covid 19 spread and it is all because asymptomatic people thought they were fine traveling from country to country, state to state and city to city. Look what has happened in meat plants around the country when they were forced to work and not stay at home. 

... And just remember Doctors and Health Care workers are people too. They certainly all have friends and family out of work or have a small business that may close and never open again. I don't think they are single minded, concentrating on the virus to the exclusion of life. But like you said, all we have are opinions and now more than ever it is crucial we respect each other regardless of how we see these dark times.  

Except he didn’t get rid of the team

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/03/16/no-white-house-didnt-dissolve-its-pandemic-response-office/%3foutputType=amp

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1 hour ago, silver & black said:

I'm going to bow out of this as of now. I don't know how to continue without getting political and pissing people off, so I'll just wish you all the best of luck and hope our country can get through this.

Agreed stay safe all

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I know, it’s been so hard for me not to respond to lot of these posts. But I’m biting my tongue.  I just tell myself that I’m not gonna change anyone’s mind who does disagree with me, and arguing about it would is just a waste of my time. But it’s still been hard not to chime in. 

I know what you mean. I’m very political and opinionated and at 73 it comes w age and crankiness but I try not to impart my views on this site.


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This is hysterical. 

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You can see the cases and when they started. January and Feb were very low as was early early March. 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1102816/coronavirus-covid19-cases-number-us-americans-by-day/
 

President restricted travel from China exempting US citizens and permanent residents at the end of January, restricted European travel after that. In mid January WHO tweeted that the virus wasn’t spread thru human to human contact. Italy and Spain despite outbreak didnt shutdown their countries til about 2 weeks into March. Dr Fauci praised the president for the actions he took early on and how that helped.

Nancy Pelosi, AOC, Deblasio and NYC health commissioner kept telling people to visit Chinese restaurants, go about their daily lives and even as thing in nyc were starting to get bad the ny health commissioner was still saying it was serious and encouraging people to go out and do their normal business. 

Relying on incomplete or false information from China and WHO while trying to figure out how bad the virus was. 

Models have shown to be way off and as more data got entered predictions were going way down. NYC dropped predicted number of beds from over 100k to 20-30k beds in a matter of days and right after the Comfort arrived in town. Everyone freaked out that the college kids were celebrating spring break (I called it dumb at one point) and it was supposed to spread the virus all over and Florida was going to be the next Italy. That story died as soon as spring break ended and the number of cases didn’t explode.

Many places have more available beds and ventilators than was even predicted were needed by the models. 
 

now as universities and doctors start releaseing the studies they have been doing we see data that suggests the number of people infected is much higher than confirmed cases which using that data indicates the mortality rate per case is near flu season levels. 

Experts disagree on which method is better the  stay at home for all or only quarantining the at risk population. But imo based on Sweden and the anti bodies studies the stay at home for everyone might not be the best approach not only for the virus but the damage to businesses and world economies.

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14 hours ago, Rickp said:


Me too.


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Make that +3. This thread is starting to sound like the pundits (both sides) on TV. I come here to get away from it all and talk golf. Stay safe everyone and see you on the golf threads. 

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:ping-small:  410  Hybrids 22*, 26*
:wilson-small: C300 4i-GP
:cleveland-small:  Wedges RTX 3.0: 52*, 56*
:ping-small: EYE 2 Wedge 60*

:odyssey-small: O Works putter
:918457628_PrecisionPro:NX9-HD

:CaddyTek: - 4 Wheel 
:footjoy-small: - too many shoes to list and so many to buy

:1590477705_SunMountain:

:SuperSpeed: Official Tester 2020   Beginning Driver Speed  - 78

 

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Make that +3. This thread is starting to sound like the pundits (both sides) on TV. I come here to get away from it all and talk golf. Stay safe everyone and see you on the golf threads. 

I’m on board with that. Mods, 960 comments. Perhaps we’ve said all that needs to be said.
  • Like 8

  • PING G400 LST 8.5 Evenflow Black 65g 6.5
  • PING G 3W HZRDUS Yellow 75g 6.0
  • Mizuno HMB MP20 3i Nippon Modus 3 120S
  • Maltby TS1 4-G Nippon Modus3 120S
  • Maltby TSW 52 Nippon Modus Wedge
  • Maltby TSW 58 Nippon Modus Wedge
  • Bettinardi BB8 Wide 2020
  • Oncore Elixr

Currently testing the Ben Hogan PTx Combo irons https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/38486-2020-official-member-review-ben-hogan-icon-ptx-proicon-combo-irons/

 

 

Rochester, NY

4.3 Index

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