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Is Club Champion worth it?


Mr. 82

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16 minutes ago, Dog Faced Pony Soldier said:

Not sure if we're still on topic or not but I'll continue to add my professional perspective if its welcome. 

Imagine you're (like me or the Ping manager) managing a major consumer brand with a protected network of authorized dealers. These agreements being made with retailers are anything-but happening by accident. Both parties are strategically and carefully choosing their partners. Being successful in this specific process itself is how and why people are getting paid to manage territories/regions. 

It's simply absurd to think a partnership would be broken over a single discounted in-person sale... especially after the salesperson invested so much time with them. It's like saying you divorced your wife because she spent too much money on groceries one time. If your friend's dealer had their account terminated it wasn't because of a discount given to a secret shopper; someone was already unhappy with the partnership. Perhaps that's why someone would invest in sending in a secret shopper. 

Secret shoppers are common in many industries. Sometimes it's to verify pricing; other times it's ensuring product quality on the shelf (e.g. groceries).

With golf clubs, this actually happens, and it's not just sour relationships - multiple examples have been referenced in this thread. You have plenty of valid points on the legality of requiring certain prices and that MAP actually means, but private contracts still exist, and violating them means you risk the partnership. How many of the "can't advertise, see cart" situations happen with the actual new releases vs. things that are going out of style? My buying experience says it's rarely ever something that's brand new -- if you can point me to a shop that has a legit Callaway contract and is willing to sell me a Rogue ST Triple Diamond LS driver for $400-450, please point me that direction and there's a very good chance I buy. My point is that, even if legal, the actual retailers with contracts are not willing to risk their contracts by selling lower (yes, they might sell lower to a friend or frequent purchaser, but not to any consumer). 

And shifting back to the original topic for this thread: Club Champion absolutely will not risk their contracts with their suppliers by selling lower than MAP. Losing a single contract (club or shaft) will destroy their reputation. Their statement is accurate for their business model - if you buy from them, expect to pay MAP; if you have a friend in the business willing to do a back-office deal for less than MAP, good for you, it's just not what any consumer should expect from CC or any other retailer.

Driver: :taylormade-small: Stealth Plus 8* (adjusted to 8.75*), Mitsubishi Diamana ZF 70 X Flex (New toy incoming!)

Fairway: :taylormade-small: Stealth2 Plus, 15* (adjusted to 14.25*) w/ Graphite Design Tour AD-IZ 7X

Irons:  :titleist-small: U505 1 Iron (16*), T200 "Utility Build" 3 and 4 irons, all with Graphite Design Tour AD-IZ 95 X Flex, :titleist-small: T100S 5-9 with Nippon Pro Modus 120 X Flex (2021 MGS Test). These things are monsters. 

Wedges:  :vokey-small: SM9 46.10, 54.12, and 58.08, all with custom etchings & KBS Tour Masters-themed shafts, X-flex (CHA Post)

Putter: Total headcase and Putter Ho. Down to two main options in the rotation (one mallet, one blade), but have 4-5 by the basement putting green that might make it in the bag at some point this year... Mallet: :L.A.B.: Mezz XL 36" Orange; Blade: :L.A.B.: Link.1 w/Accra White shaft & :garsen: grip

 

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Its starting to get genuinely amusing to see people envision retailers really want to discount but that pesky dealer agreement prevents them. 😂 They’re selling at MAP because that’s the highest price accepted in the marketplace! If a salesperson really wants to sell someone clubs at a discount there isn’t a manufacturer’s dealer agreement in the US that says they have to sell at retail. As I said, it’s illegal to demand products be sold at any specific price. I close by challenging anyone to share any US retail dealer agreement that says otherwise. It doesn’t exist. 
 

By all means though, if you guys want to believe retailers are contractually prevented from discounting an in-person sale, it’s no skin off my back. 

Edited by Dog Faced Pony Soldier

Driver: :titelist-small: TSR3 w/ LA Golf DJ Signature Series (65-4)

3w: :srixon-small: ZX MKII w/ Graphite Design AD DI-7 XS

5w: :srixon-small: ZX MKII w/ Graphite Design AD DI-7 XS

7w: :srixon-small: ZX MKII w/ Graphite Design AD DI-7 XS

4i-GW: :mizuno-small: JPX921 Forged w/ Nippon Modus Tour 105 S

54º: :vokey-small: SM9 D Grind w/ Nippon Modus Tour 105 S

Putter: :EVNROLL: ER5vB w/ LA Golf P-Series SOHO 

Ball: :titelist-small: ProV1x  play #45

Ball mark: Kraken Golf - Revolver, Weight Plate, Turntable

Tracked and scored by :Arccos: 

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18 minutes ago, Dog Faced Pony Soldier said:

Its starting to get genuinely amusing to see people envision retailers really want to discount but that pesky dealer agreement prevents them. 😂 They’re selling at MAP because that’s the highest price accepted in the marketplace! If a salesperson really wants to sell someone clubs at a discount there isn’t a dealer agreement in the US that says they have to sell at retail. As I said, it’s illegal to demand products be sold at any specific price. I close by challenging anyone to share any US retail dealer agreement that says otherwise. It doesn’t exist. 
 

By all means though, if you guys want to believe retailers are contractually prevented from discounting an in-person sale, it’s no skin off my back. 

Yes, a retailer can sell the product to someone below MAP. No, they will not make their general price for their buyers below MAP. Totally different points, and both have truth to them.

Nobody is saying they can't sell below MAP to an individual, it's that they won't sell below MAP to the general public (and in the context of their blog post, their public price is MAP because anything less will risk their partnership - risk is different from cancel). That's not specific to CC - other retailers function the same way. 

You challenge others to share a retail agreement stating the price is required. But I (we?) don't have access to the contract verbage, just experiences that say retailers are held to specific prices. It's again a legal vs. practical thing - instead of asking for documents that we clearly can't access from the legal perspective, I'm asking you the opposite from a practical perspective: do you have a legitimate retailer that will sell these new releases to the general public at a price under MAP? Please send a link - I'm ready to buy. 

Driver: :taylormade-small: Stealth Plus 8* (adjusted to 8.75*), Mitsubishi Diamana ZF 70 X Flex (New toy incoming!)

Fairway: :taylormade-small: Stealth2 Plus, 15* (adjusted to 14.25*) w/ Graphite Design Tour AD-IZ 7X

Irons:  :titleist-small: U505 1 Iron (16*), T200 "Utility Build" 3 and 4 irons, all with Graphite Design Tour AD-IZ 95 X Flex, :titleist-small: T100S 5-9 with Nippon Pro Modus 120 X Flex (2021 MGS Test). These things are monsters. 

Wedges:  :vokey-small: SM9 46.10, 54.12, and 58.08, all with custom etchings & KBS Tour Masters-themed shafts, X-flex (CHA Post)

Putter: Total headcase and Putter Ho. Down to two main options in the rotation (one mallet, one blade), but have 4-5 by the basement putting green that might make it in the bag at some point this year... Mallet: :L.A.B.: Mezz XL 36" Orange; Blade: :L.A.B.: Link.1 w/Accra White shaft & :garsen: grip

 

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8 hours ago, Dog Faced Pony Soldier said:

Its starting to get genuinely amusing to see people envision retailers really want to discount but that pesky dealer agreement prevents them. 😂 They’re selling at MAP because that’s the highest price accepted in the marketplace! If a salesperson really wants to sell someone clubs at a discount there isn’t a manufacturer’s dealer agreement in the US that says they have to sell at retail. As I said, it’s illegal to demand products be sold at any specific price. I close by challenging anyone to share any US retail dealer agreement that says otherwise. It doesn’t exist. 
 

By all means though, if you guys want to believe retailers are contractually prevented from discounting an in-person sale, it’s no skin off my back. 

I’ve had many conversations with my old fitter who was also responsible for all sales at the shop. He was approached  numerous times by Ping secret shoppers over the years and never budged because he wasn’t going to lose the account. He’s the one that told me about other accounts in the area that lost their account for selling less than pings price.

You can believe what you want and call us whatever you want for our personal experiences but map is the lowest price you a retailer is going to sell for. Some places may be between map and msrp or every over msrp but won’t be listed or sold below it 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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8 hours ago, Dog Faced Pony Soldier said:

Its starting to get genuinely amusing to see people envision retailers really want to discount but that pesky dealer agreement prevents them. 😂 They’re selling at MAP because that’s the highest price accepted in the marketplace! If a salesperson really wants to sell someone clubs at a discount there isn’t a manufacturer’s dealer agreement in the US that says they have to sell at retail. As I said, it’s illegal to demand products be sold at any specific price. I close by challenging anyone to share any US retail dealer agreement that says otherwise. It doesn’t exist. 
 

By all means though, if you guys want to believe retailers are contractually prevented from discounting an in-person sale, it’s no skin off my back. 

It is not illegal for a company to contractually obligate a company to sell their product for a specific price.  I already referenced Federal Trade Commission information that says it is legal.  I agree that companies can sell for below MAP as that is the lowest price they can advertise as long as there isn’t a pricing contract.   IF a reseller can sell for whatever price they want and it is illegal to have a manufacturer dictate pricing, why are so many products not put on sale or excluded from promotional discounts/coupons?     Yes, without a pricing contract a company can sell a product below MAP or MSRP.  As others have mentioned, Ping is the best example, companies can dictate pricing to resellers and is often part of the contract that allows the company to resell a manufacturers product.  

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:   SPGC_logo.jpg

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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Been playing for 40 years.  Have been "fit" several - NO MANY - times.  Each time was about 30 minutes for irons and 30 minutes for driver/woods.  Got feed-up with the process after going through Club Champion fitting process.  Found a Master Club Builder who spent 12.5 hours with me over 3 days and fit everything from woods, irons and putter.  My new clubs , build by him, are so much better than anything fit by the OEMs and I learned a great deal in the process.  All my new clubs are MOI matched and shafts purred.  I'll always use a Master Club Builder from now on. Would encourage your attention to the Association of Golf Clubfitting Professionals (AGCP).  I could not have asked for a better experience.  Good Luck.

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12 hours ago, cnosil said:

It is not illegal for a company to contractually obligate a company to sell their product for a specific price.  I already referenced Federal Trade Commission information that says it is legal.  I agree that companies can sell for below MAP as that is the lowest price they can advertise as long as there isn’t a pricing contract.   IF a reseller can sell for whatever price they want and it is illegal to have a manufacturer dictate pricing, why are so many products not put on sale or excluded from promotional discounts/coupons?     Yes, without a pricing contract a company can sell a product below MAP or MSRP.  As others have mentioned, Ping is the best example, companies can dictate pricing to resellers and is often part of the contract that allows the company to resell a manufacturers product.  

Can anyone answer these questions:  Does CC buy a full set of irons with shafts and grips, pull the shafts and reshaft with the suggested shaft from the fitting, OR does it have the contractual ability with OEMS to buy heads only?  If they are buying heads only, and not a complete set of irons, how does MAP or MSRP enter into the price charged to their customer?

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2 hours ago, AztecGolfer said:

Been playing for 40 years.  Have been "fit" several - NO MANY - times.  Each time was about 30 minutes for irons and 30 minutes for driver/woods.  Got feed-up with the process after going through Club Champion fitting process.  Found a Master Club Builder who spent 12.5 hours with me over 3 days and fit everything from woods, irons and putter.  My new clubs , build by him, are so much better than anything fit by the OEMs and I learned a great deal in the process.  All my new clubs are MOI matched and shafts purred.  I'll always use a Master Club Builder from now on. Would encourage your attention to the Association of Golf Clubfitting Professionals (AGCP).  I could not have asked for a better experience.  Good Luck.

12.5 hours?   How does he / she recoup that cost?

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2 minutes ago, flyingwedges said:

Can anyone answer these questions:  Does CC buy a full set of irons with shafts and grips, pull the shafts and reshaft with the suggested shaft from the fitting, OR does it have the contractual ability with OEMS to buy heads only?  If they are buying heads only, and not a complete set of irons, how does MAP or MSRP enter into the price charged to their customer?

CC provides their answer here:  https://clubchampiongolf.com/blog/misconceptions/

 

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:   SPGC_logo.jpg

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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Have done a few fittings (I don’t fit standard clubs) so every time I get new clubs I have to be fitted. 
 

club champion was okay, but salesy. Seemed to be pushing Calloway Apex irons. Didn’t feel they went far enough with shafts, shaft weights, etc. 

Orlando club pro. Had a specific “style” and fitted me to his style. Spent a year trying to get used to the Srixon irons and never could. Weird misses (for me), hard to hit, not really a appropriate fit for me  (This guy had fit big name pros…)

Pxg. Best fitting experience. Tried a few heads, lots of loft, lie and shaft combos. Upright, longer, heavy shafts, bigger grips, stepped stiff… 😳Liked the series 2 irons best. Fitter said that happened 75% of the time. 

in closing, I met a Golf Channel personality (former tour player) and he said fitting was not a science, or consistent from fitter to fitter. That was my experience. 

i thought it was like fitting a suit (either it’s right or not). That’s not the case. Try and find a fitter that will adjust the clubs after the sale. 

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2 hours ago, 63to69 said:

In closing, I met a Golf Channel personality (former tour player) and he said fitting was not a science, or consistent from fitter to fitter. That was my experience. 

And that's the rub most places, and most definitely at Club Champion. There's no doubt there are some outstanding fitters at Club Champion, but there are plenty of newbies who are working off the CC script and really don't know squat. If you have an ongoing relationship with a particular fitter at CC you've obviously found someone you're confident in. If you're a first timer, or a sporadic customer, you could easily get a useless newbie (like I did). And the fitting guarantee isn't worth the paper it used to be written on unless CC acknowledges a build mistake - there's no guarantee if the data they collect isn't representative, and that can easily happen using their script methodology. IF I go for another fitting, I'll try True Spec or a "manufacturer owned facility."

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  • Titleist TSR2 16.5º HZRDUS Red 60 CB 6.0 & TSR2 21º HZRDUS Black 4G 70 6.0 w Lamkin UTx Midsize
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On 2/18/2022 at 8:43 PM, flyingwedges said:

Can anyone answer these questions:  Does CC buy a full set of irons with shafts and grips, pull the shafts and reshaft with the suggested shaft from the fitting, OR does it have the contractual ability with OEMS to buy heads only?  If they are buying heads only, and not a complete set of irons, how does MAP or MSRP enter into the price charged to their customer?

 

On 2/18/2022 at 8:47 PM, cnosil said:

CC provides their answer here:  https://clubchampiongolf.com/blog/misconceptions/

 

The blog post does address this, at least partially. One notable thing: they can  get fully assembled clubs, but they can also get components only, which is somewhat rare. If you get fit into something that the head manufacturer offers as a stock or no-upcharge shaft, then your starting price is exactly the same as buying direct -- but you pay more to pull-Pure-reassemble if you choose that option. 

From what I've seen, heads-only pricing is the same as stock shaft pricing. It only kinda makes sense, but that's what happens (often it's a $20-30 retail shaft that the OEM probably gets for much cheaper, so it's not much of a factor for a $125-150 iron). 

Driver: :taylormade-small: Stealth Plus 8* (adjusted to 8.75*), Mitsubishi Diamana ZF 70 X Flex (New toy incoming!)

Fairway: :taylormade-small: Stealth2 Plus, 15* (adjusted to 14.25*) w/ Graphite Design Tour AD-IZ 7X

Irons:  :titleist-small: U505 1 Iron (16*), T200 "Utility Build" 3 and 4 irons, all with Graphite Design Tour AD-IZ 95 X Flex, :titleist-small: T100S 5-9 with Nippon Pro Modus 120 X Flex (2021 MGS Test). These things are monsters. 

Wedges:  :vokey-small: SM9 46.10, 54.12, and 58.08, all with custom etchings & KBS Tour Masters-themed shafts, X-flex (CHA Post)

Putter: Total headcase and Putter Ho. Down to two main options in the rotation (one mallet, one blade), but have 4-5 by the basement putting green that might make it in the bag at some point this year... Mallet: :L.A.B.: Mezz XL 36" Orange; Blade: :L.A.B.: Link.1 w/Accra White shaft & :garsen: grip

 

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Shaft pureing, spine alignment, etc. may (that is may…) benefit a tiny, tiny fraction of the very best golfers. Until recently it wasn’t even a thing. Now too many people think they “need” it when they don’t.

I believe that for the vast majority of golfers that money is far better spent on lessons. 👍🏻🏌️

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On 2/21/2022 at 3:28 PM, 63to69 said:

Shaft pureing, spine alignment, etc. may (that is may…) benefit a tiny, tiny fraction of the very best golfers. Until recently it wasn’t even a thing. Now too many people think they “need” it when they don’t.

I believe that for the vast majority of golfers that money is far better spent on lessons. 👍🏻🏌️

I've never heard anyone state that they "need" their shafts Pured. Personally I see the $35 charge for Puring as an optional assembly fee that's nominal and financially inconsequential.

Whenever I hear people presume someone's equipment purchase displaced funding lessons I wonder why. The two aren't mutually exclusive. I assume its envy getting the better of them. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Edited by Dog Faced Pony Soldier

Driver: :titelist-small: TSR3 w/ LA Golf DJ Signature Series (65-4)

3w: :srixon-small: ZX MKII w/ Graphite Design AD DI-7 XS

5w: :srixon-small: ZX MKII w/ Graphite Design AD DI-7 XS

7w: :srixon-small: ZX MKII w/ Graphite Design AD DI-7 XS

4i-GW: :mizuno-small: JPX921 Forged w/ Nippon Modus Tour 105 S

54º: :vokey-small: SM9 D Grind w/ Nippon Modus Tour 105 S

Putter: :EVNROLL: ER5vB w/ LA Golf P-Series SOHO 

Ball: :titelist-small: ProV1x  play #45

Ball mark: Kraken Golf - Revolver, Weight Plate, Turntable

Tracked and scored by :Arccos: 

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2 hours ago, Dog Faced Pony Soldier said:

Whenever I hear people presume someone's equipment purchase displaced funding lessons I wonder why. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Because people base their comments on their own personal experiences.  

Driver: :callaway-small: Rogue ST Max (10.5* set at -1 and neutral) -- Mitsubishi Tensai Blue 55g R shaft

Fairway: :callaway-small: Rogue ST Max 3 wood (16.5*) and Heaven Wood (20*)-- Tensai Blue 55g R shaft

Hybrids: :callaway-small: Rogue ST Max 5H (23*)--Tensai Blue 55g R shaft

Irons:  :callaway-small: Apex CF19 6-9, PW, AW -- KBS Tour Graphite  TGI 70 shafts R +1/2 inch 3* upright

Wedges: Edison 53* and  57* KBS PGI 80 Graphite +1/2 inch 2* upright

Putter: L.A.B. DF 2.1 -- BGT Stability shaft

Ball:  Maxfli TourX...Golf Bag: :ping-small: Pioneer...Shoes: :footjoy-small: Hyperflex... Glove: Red Rooster Feather

 

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3 hours ago, Dog Faced Pony Soldier said:

Whenever I hear people presume someone's equipment purchase displaced funding lessons I wonder why. The two aren't mutually exclusive. I assume its envy getting the better of them. 🤷🏻‍♂️

35 minutes ago, CarlH said:

Because people base their comments on their own personal experiences.  

And some people come on the MGS forum asking about fittings admitting they aren't taking lessons. If you have a grooved swing, that's fine. But there was a guy not long ago with a 30 HI asking about fitting and many members recommended he do so? At a 30 HI, I'd spend on giving lessons/practice a real try first. A fitting could be a waste of time and money if your swing changes significantly before, during or after the fitting. Any decent fitter would warn of that.

 

  • Titleist TSR2 11° HZRDUS Red CB 50 6.0 w Lamkin UTx Midsize
  • Titleist TSR2 16.5º HZRDUS Red 60 CB 6.0 & TSR2 21º HZRDUS Black 4G 70 6.0 w Lamkin UTx Midsize
  • Mizuno JPX923 HMP 4-GW, T22 54.12WS, T22 58.04DC w Lamkin ST+2 Hybrid Midsize
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37 minutes ago, Middler said:

And some people come on the MGS forum asking about fittings admitting they aren't taking lessons. If you have a grooved swing, that's fine. But there was a guy not long ago with a 30 HI asking about fitting and many members recommended he do so? At a 30 HI, I'd spend on giving lessons/practice a real try first. A fitting could be a waste of time and money if your swing changes significantly before, during or after the fitting. Any decent fitter would warn of that.

 

A fitting is still going to help determine length, lie, and most likely shaft. Unless their setup/stance is way out of whack, all of those are still going to be good while taking lessons. 

In my  :wilson_staff_small:  carry bag:
:mizuno-small: ST-X 10.5* Kai'li Blue R Flex
:mizuno-small: ST-Z 15* Kai/li Blue R Flex
:mizuno-small: ST-Z 4h Linq Blue R Flex
:cleveland-small: Launcher 5h
:cleveland-small: Launcher CBX 6i-PW
:cleveland-small: CBX 54* & 58*
:cleveland-small: Huntington Beach #10
:bridgestone-small: e12 Contact
CURRENTLY TESTING - Mizuno Long Game

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25 minutes ago, russtopherb said:

A fitting is still going to help determine length, lie, and most likely shaft. Unless their setup/stance is way out of whack, all of those are still going to be good while taking lessons. 

And doing both combined is even better despite some who think it’s a chicken and egg scenario. 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

And doing both combined is even better despite some who think it’s a chicken and egg scenario. 

Since I agree with you on many golf related topics aside from universal fittings, I am almost tempted to get your recommendation for a specific person to go to for a driver fitting after the totally useless BS driver fitting I had a Club Champion. I’d be more than happy to drive the ball measurably more consistently if a fitter could actually guarantee it…I don’t even care about adding any distance as a result.

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  • Titleist TSR2 16.5º HZRDUS Red 60 CB 6.0 & TSR2 21º HZRDUS Black 4G 70 6.0 w Lamkin UTx Midsize
  • Mizuno JPX923 HMP 4-GW, T22 54.12WS, T22 58.04DC w Lamkin ST+2 Hybrid Midsize
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On 2/17/2022 at 11:11 PM, Dog Faced Pony Soldier said:

Not sure if we're still on topic or not but I'll continue to add my professional perspective if its welcome. 

Imagine you're (like me or the Ping manager) managing a major consumer brand with a protected network of authorized dealers. These agreements being made with retailers are anything-but happening by accident. Both parties are strategically and carefully choosing their partners. Being successful in this specific process itself is how and why people are getting paid to manage territories/regions. 

It's simply absurd to think a partnership would be broken over a single discounted in-person sale... especially after the salesperson invested so much time with them. It's like saying you divorced your wife because she spent too much money on groceries one time. If your friend's dealer had their account terminated it wasn't because of a discount given to a secret shopper; someone was already unhappy with the partnership. Perhaps that's why someone would invest in sending in a secret shopper. 

I hesitate to post this, as you have made your thoughts vey clear in MULTIPLE posts.  So it's probably best to just agree to disagree, but one more for the camp of the penalty you will pay with a least one company for selling below it's minimum listed price. It has a color coding pricing systgem that is not general public kowledge, but well known to retailers. Selling below the listed "color" price will get your account closed. 

It's not absurd, it's a non debateable fact.  The examples above, and my company (under previous managment) lost it's PING account for sellign below MSRP.  It took management, and time and pretty much signatures in blood, to get a new account set up.

:ping-small: G430 Max 10K 

:titelist-small: TSiR1 15.0 Aldlia Ascent 60g

:titelist-small: TSR2 18.0 PX Aldila Ascent 6og

:titelist-small: TSi1 20 Aldila Ascent Shafts R

:titelist-small: T350 5-GW SteelFiber I80 

:titelist-small: SM10 48F/54M and58K

:ping-small: S159 48S/52S/56W/60B

:scotty-cameron-1: Select 5.5 Flowback 35" 

:titelist-small: ProV1  Play number 12

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

I hesitate to post this, as you have made your thoughts vey clear in MULTIPLE posts.  So it's probably best to just agree to disagree, but one more for the camp of the penalty you will pay with a least one company for selling below it's minimum listed price. It has a color coding pricing systgem that is not general public kowledge, but well known to retailers. Selling below the listed "color" price will get your account closed. 

It's not absurd, it's a non debateable fact.  The examples above, and my company (under previous managment) lost it's PING account for sellign below MSRP.  It took management, and time and pretty much signatures in blood, to get a new account set up.

And they do send out "secret shoppers" to test their retail account holders.  Well said.

Ping G430 Max 10.5*

Ping G430 SFT 3 wood and Ping G430 HL 7 wood SR flex

Ping G430 4,5,6,7 hybrids  SR flex

Cleveland Launcher XL Halo 8,9,P,G, SW irons   A Flex

Cleveland Smart Sole S wedge  A Flex

Cobra Nova putter

 

 

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1 hour ago, Middler said:

Since I agree with you on many golf related topics aside from universal fittings, I am almost tempted to get your recommendation for a specific person to go to for a driver fitting after the totally useless BS driver fitting I had a Club Champion. I’d be more than happy to drive the ball measurably more consistently if a fitter could actually guarantee it…I don’t even care about adding any distance as a result.

Im not sure any fitter would gurantee that you will drive the ball better. Most if not all would tell you they will see if your current setup is optimal for your swing and if not they will get you into a setup that is. Having a setup that’s optimized for your swing will reduce the effects of your bad swings while making your good ones have better results. As golfers it’s still on us to make the swing. Having a setup that works with our swings eps improve the changes we will make better swings.

I don’t many fitters in the Carolinas but True Spec is going to be a top choice because they are going to have outdoor capabilities which allows you to seee true ball flight. Imo this helps see what changes in ball flight a setup is doing and how a ball really reacts based on strike location. They are also some of the most qualified fitters around. The down side is their business model is all aftermarket to my knowledge. I don’t recall them offering stock options like CC does.  
 

I would always recommend an outdoor fitting whether it’s off grass or from a bay towards grass areas for the reasons mentioned above. Second I would contact the fitter and ask what their process is for conducting a fitting, during that discussion I would ask about your want for a guarantee and see what they say. Let them know what you want to accomplish and see what their response is. 
 

Once at the fitting be as honest with the fitter about how a setup feels, if you fee like you are having to swing different to make the club work and what your thoughts are about the ball flight you are seeing. The more communication during the fitting the better.

Ill message a guy that lives in N Carolina to see if he has any recommendations for fitters

 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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29 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Im not sure any fitter would gurantee that you will drive the ball better.

Golf EQ does

Driver: :srixon-small: ZX5 LS MkII 9.5* (@ 9.0*) with 46.5" Ventus Blue 6X
3-wood: :taylormade-small: SIM 15* with Diamana Limited 75S
5-wood: :cobra-small: RADspeed 18.5* with Motore X F3 60S
2i: :srixon-small: ZX with SteelFiber i95 Stiff

4hy: :titleist-small: TS3 23* with Tensei AV Blue 70 S
4i-7i :srixon-small: ZX7, 8i-PW Z-Forged, Modus3 Tour 120 S
50*, 55* :cleveland-small: RTX 6 Modus3 Tour 125
60* :cleveland-small: RTX Full Face ZipCore DG Spinner S400
Putter: :callaway-small: Toulon Chicago with a :garsen: Quad Tour or :cleveland-small: HB SOFT Milled 10.5S with UST All-in

Ball: :callaway-small: Chrome Tour (but I might still have some :titleist-small: Left Dashes hanging around)
Bag: :srixon-small: Ltd Edition Tartan, blue/green/yellow

Using :ShotScope: to keep track of my shots

Tested:
:wilson_staff_small: D7 Forged 3i-PW, KBS Tour-V 110S - Official Review
:titelist-small: Blind Ball Test (Ball #3 vs Ball #4) - Unofficial Review
:ShotScope:
 V3 GPS Watch + Tags - Official Review
:OnCore:
 Vero X2 - Official Review

The Stack System - Official Review

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44 minutes ago, greggarner said:

Golf EQ does

Actually they don’t. Their claim is that they will make you play better golf but don’t state exactly what that means. Plus the golfer still has to get the ball in the hole and that’s as much on the golfers ability to score as it is the clubs they use. 
 

 

 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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34 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Actually they don’t. Their claim is that they will make you play better golf but don’t state exactly what that means. Plus the golfer still has to get the ball in the hole and that’s as much on the golfers ability to score as it is the clubs they use. 

I've worked with them before. You get to decide what your improvement metrics are. If the fit is based on tighter dispersion or more distance or whatever else, then those are the claims they're willing to back and if use ShotScope or Arccos or whatever else and show that you don't have improvement, they'll refund you. (Happy to DM you the email of the guy I worked with, if that would be helpful?)

Driver: :srixon-small: ZX5 LS MkII 9.5* (@ 9.0*) with 46.5" Ventus Blue 6X
3-wood: :taylormade-small: SIM 15* with Diamana Limited 75S
5-wood: :cobra-small: RADspeed 18.5* with Motore X F3 60S
2i: :srixon-small: ZX with SteelFiber i95 Stiff

4hy: :titleist-small: TS3 23* with Tensei AV Blue 70 S
4i-7i :srixon-small: ZX7, 8i-PW Z-Forged, Modus3 Tour 120 S
50*, 55* :cleveland-small: RTX 6 Modus3 Tour 125
60* :cleveland-small: RTX Full Face ZipCore DG Spinner S400
Putter: :callaway-small: Toulon Chicago with a :garsen: Quad Tour or :cleveland-small: HB SOFT Milled 10.5S with UST All-in

Ball: :callaway-small: Chrome Tour (but I might still have some :titleist-small: Left Dashes hanging around)
Bag: :srixon-small: Ltd Edition Tartan, blue/green/yellow

Using :ShotScope: to keep track of my shots

Tested:
:wilson_staff_small: D7 Forged 3i-PW, KBS Tour-V 110S - Official Review
:titelist-small: Blind Ball Test (Ball #3 vs Ball #4) - Unofficial Review
:ShotScope:
 V3 GPS Watch + Tags - Official Review
:OnCore:
 Vero X2 - Official Review

The Stack System - Official Review

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53 minutes ago, greggarner said:

I've worked with them before. You get to decide what your improvement metrics are. If the fit is based on tighter dispersion or more distance or whatever else, then those are the claims they're willing to back and if use ShotScope or Arccos or whatever else and show that you don't have improvement, they'll refund you. (Happy to DM you the email of the guy I worked with, if that would be helpful?)

The last thing I’m going to do or talk about is a virtual fitting. I need to see the club at address, feel the shaft and head combo, hear contact and watch the ball flight. It’s why I don’t get fit indoors. 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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4 hours ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

I hesitate to post this, as you have made your thoughts vey clear in MULTIPLE posts.  So it's probably best to just agree to disagree, but one more for the camp of the penalty you will pay with a least one company for selling below it's minimum listed price. It has a color coding pricing systgem that is not general public kowledge, but well known to retailers. Selling below the listed "color" price will get your account closed. 

It's not absurd, it's a non debateable fact.  The examples above, and my company (under previous managment) lost it's PING account for sellign below MSRP.  It took management, and time and pretty much signatures in blood, to get a new account set up.

My decades of direct professional experience managing protected brands at retail proves more to me than you and your hearsay ever will; so give it up and move on. Believe what you want; my life will not change a bit. 

Edited by Dog Faced Pony Soldier

Driver: :titelist-small: TSR3 w/ LA Golf DJ Signature Series (65-4)

3w: :srixon-small: ZX MKII w/ Graphite Design AD DI-7 XS

5w: :srixon-small: ZX MKII w/ Graphite Design AD DI-7 XS

7w: :srixon-small: ZX MKII w/ Graphite Design AD DI-7 XS

4i-GW: :mizuno-small: JPX921 Forged w/ Nippon Modus Tour 105 S

54º: :vokey-small: SM9 D Grind w/ Nippon Modus Tour 105 S

Putter: :EVNROLL: ER5vB w/ LA Golf P-Series SOHO 

Ball: :titelist-small: ProV1x  play #45

Ball mark: Kraken Golf - Revolver, Weight Plate, Turntable

Tracked and scored by :Arccos: 

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Adding truncated clip (without commentary) of Club Champion Perfect Fit Guarantee to the record. 
 

“…if your Club Champion-built clubs do not deliver the results you saw in the hitting bay at the time of your fitting, you should come back within 90 days after you pick up your clubs so we can make it right. If you come back during said 90-day period, we will work to adjust your Club Champion-built clubs to find the same or substantially the same results initially seen on TrackMan in the hitting bay during your fitting…”

Edited by Dog Faced Pony Soldier

Driver: :titelist-small: TSR3 w/ LA Golf DJ Signature Series (65-4)

3w: :srixon-small: ZX MKII w/ Graphite Design AD DI-7 XS

5w: :srixon-small: ZX MKII w/ Graphite Design AD DI-7 XS

7w: :srixon-small: ZX MKII w/ Graphite Design AD DI-7 XS

4i-GW: :mizuno-small: JPX921 Forged w/ Nippon Modus Tour 105 S

54º: :vokey-small: SM9 D Grind w/ Nippon Modus Tour 105 S

Putter: :EVNROLL: ER5vB w/ LA Golf P-Series SOHO 

Ball: :titelist-small: ProV1x  play #45

Ball mark: Kraken Golf - Revolver, Weight Plate, Turntable

Tracked and scored by :Arccos: 

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2 hours ago, Dog Faced Pony Soldier said:

My decades of direct professional experience managing protected brands at retail proves more to me than you and your hearsay ever will; so give it up and move on. Believe what you want; my life will not change a bit. 

My goal isn’t to change your mind. My years of experience in this tells internet hero’s never do.
  Actually I’m asking  you (once) to move on.  You’ve beat the topic to death. 

:ping-small: G430 Max 10K 

:titelist-small: TSiR1 15.0 Aldlia Ascent 60g

:titelist-small: TSR2 18.0 PX Aldila Ascent 6og

:titelist-small: TSi1 20 Aldila Ascent Shafts R

:titelist-small: T350 5-GW SteelFiber I80 

:titelist-small: SM10 48F/54M and58K

:ping-small: S159 48S/52S/56W/60B

:scotty-cameron-1: Select 5.5 Flowback 35" 

:titelist-small: ProV1  Play number 12

 

 

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6 hours ago, Bobbers said:

And they do send out "secret shoppers" to test their retail account holders.  Well said.

Yep. I constantly remind our staff of that fact.  

:ping-small: G430 Max 10K 

:titelist-small: TSiR1 15.0 Aldlia Ascent 60g

:titelist-small: TSR2 18.0 PX Aldila Ascent 6og

:titelist-small: TSi1 20 Aldila Ascent Shafts R

:titelist-small: T350 5-GW SteelFiber I80 

:titelist-small: SM10 48F/54M and58K

:ping-small: S159 48S/52S/56W/60B

:scotty-cameron-1: Select 5.5 Flowback 35" 

:titelist-small: ProV1  Play number 12

 

 

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