Is Club Champion worth it?

[flyingwedges]

On 2/11/2022 at 9:33 PM, Dog Faced Pony Soldier said:

 Does anyone really think CC pays the same for a clubhead as a full club? I don’t. 

You sir (I presume), are correct. They buy heads only and screw the customer on pricing.

[flyingwedges]

1 hour ago, cnosil said:

That seems to be a lot of sessions just for the irons; not sure why one session wouldn't be enough.  The shaft selection would potentially mess up the loft/lie combinations that you did in the first sessions.   How the shaft loads and unloads has an influence on how the head is delivered which ultimately influences lie and loft.   A follow up session for gapping would be done to ensure that the distance gaps between clubs are consistent but that requires the entire set to be built.

My post presumes the customer is astute enough to work out a cost arrangement. Most clubs need lie work, so that's why it's first. Then after a lot of range balls and a few rounds, you get the lofts addressed. Very few, who play golf, have good enough swings to benefit from a leap into new shafts on day one.  That is a waste of money.  If you don't have shaft lean at impact, any old shaft will do for the vast majority of those who play golf.  Fitting is about giving them proper loft and lie first, even adding a shaft extension if necessary.  Once length, lie, loft are locked in, then the customer should work on the swing, and once that is locked in, spend the wild cash on new irons and shafts.  If I'm CC, and I know them pretty well, I'll sell you whatever I can, it's a business. If I'm  someone who plays golf, I actually want to be fit properly.

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, flyingwedges said:

My post presumes the customer is astute enough to work out a cost arrangement. Most clubs need lie work, so that's why it's first. Then after a lot of range balls and a few rounds, you get the lofts addressed. Very few, who play golf, have good enough swings to benefit from a leap into new shafts on day one.  That is a waste of money.  If you don't have shaft lean at impact, any old shaft will do for the vast majority of those who play golf.  Fitting is about giving them proper loft and lie first, even adding a shaft extension if necessary.  Once length, lie, loft are locked in, then the customer should work on the swing, and once that is locked in, spend the wild cash on new irons and shafts.  If I'm CC, and I know them pretty well, I'll sell you whatever I can, it's a business. If I'm  someone who plays golf, I actually want to be fit properly.

There’s not a fitter I’ve ever seen that takes this approaches it’s head and shaft first. This includes the best of the best at places like TPI, ECPC, The Kingdom, TXG. Lie and potentially loft are going to be combined with shaft and head because droop is going to be different with different shafts and that’s going to effect lie.

A good fitter is going to be able to get a golfer into a good combo of head and shaft within 15-20 swings if not sooner. They are going to eliminate the extremes early on and find the combo that gets into the right launch window. Once they have that they will then see what tweaks can me made to try and get the number the most optimized as possible 

[Dog Faced Pony Soldier]

On 2/13/2022 at 2:53 PM, flyingwedges said:

You sir (I presume), are correct. They buy heads only and screw the customer on pricing.

The more I think about the CC blog post’s clear lie about how retailers “have to” sell club components at full club MAP pricing; the more I don’t want to do business with them any longer. While I was/am okay with actually paying full price; the attempted deception itself just lost me as a customer. I’m considering canceling my driver fitting; and the three custom SM9 wedges I was ready to order. Luckily I live in Bergen County New Jersey where there’s plenty of other options for getting fit for custom clubs. 

Edited February 15, 2022 by Dog Faced Pony Soldier
Housekeeping

[rlb4]

23 minutes ago, Dog Faced Pony Soldier said:

The more I think about the CC blog post’s clear lie about how retailers “have to” sell club components at full club MAP pricing; the more I don’t want to do business with them any longer. While I was/am okay with actually paying full price; the attempted deception itself just lost me as a customer. I’m canceling my driver fitting; and the three custom SM9 wedges I was ready to order. Luckily I live in Bergen County New Jersey where there’s plenty of other options for getting fit for custom clubs. Apologies to Jeremy and the entire staff at Club Champion Hackensack. 

I'm in north Jersey also. Was going to do some fittings at CC also but just don't like their business practices. Was also looking into True Spec golf in NY. Any other fitters that you would recommend?

[Dog Faced Pony Soldier]

1 hour ago, rlb4 said:

I'm in north Jersey also. Was going to do some fittings at CC also but just don't like their business practices. Was also looking into True Spec golf in NY. Any other fitters that you would recommend?

Novo Golf seems to have a strong reputation. https://www.novogolf.com

[RickyBobby_PR]

On 2/14/2022 at 2:27 PM, Dog Faced Pony Soldier said:

The more I think about the CC blog post’s clear lie about how retailers “have to” sell club components at full club MAP pricing; the more I don’t want to do business with them any longer. While I was/am okay with actually paying full price; the attempted deception itself just lost me as a customer. I’m considering canceling my driver fitting; and the three custom SM9 wedges I was ready to order. Luckily I live in Bergen County New Jersey where there’s plenty of other options for getting fit for custom clubs. 

What fitter or club builder do you know that doesn’t have to buy the full club and can buy component?

What retail shop do you know that sells for less than MAP when there isn’t a promotional sale. Nearly everytime a retailer like Carl’s golfland, budget golf or rock bottom golf as examples have some sort of promotion going on you will see it doesn’t apply to Titleist and Ping. 

[Dog Faced Pony Soldier]

8 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

What fitter or club builder do you know that doesn’t have to buy the full club and can buy component?

What retail shop do you know that sells for less than MAP when there isn’t a promotional sale. Nearly everytime a retailer like Carl’s golfland, budget golf or rock bottom golf as examples have some sort of promotion going on you will see it doesn’t apply to Titleist and Ping. 

Second point first... Interesting how people continue to struggle to understand the distinction between MAP and a sell price. You're accurately describing MAP policies you see being employed in umm, advertising. MAP has ZERO to do with what price retailers actually charge when selling the product. Every single hour of every day retailers sell products at a discounted price that MAP policy would prevent them from advertising. Often you'll even see this manifested in advertisements, where they mention "price too low to list," or "call for price." This is because they can't advertise the discounted price they are willing to sell the product for. This isn't unique nor exclusive to golf equipment. 

Not sure what your point is about components. What I'm taking issue with is the CC blogger's contention that MAP policy  for full clubs somehow places a price limitation on club components. This literally makes zero sense. MAP nomenclature aside; is anyone here believing CC pays the same price for a component as the full club? I don't think anyone here believes that. At least I hope not but then again I'm still here explaining how a policy about the minimum price that can be used in advertisements places zero limitations on the sell price! 

Your post provides me an opportunity to update my thoughts on this topic.

Upon reflecting on this, and looking up the blog entry author on LinkedIn; I now realize what we're really seeing is a blog entry by Marketing person who's understanding of sales is very limited. This is obvious to any professional B-to-B salesperson as MAP policy is simply not as described in the blog. I've decided to keep my CC driver fitting appointment; and even ordered SM9s from them today. I still think (and see here how) the blog entry is misleading though. 

Edited February 17, 2022 by Dog Faced Pony Soldier

[Bobbers]

On 2/12/2022 at 7:04 AM, RickyBobby_PR said:

Ping does this as well and will send in secret shoppers. I know two accounts that lost Ping because of this.

Also look at golf retail websites, many times you will see ping and titleist items say see cart for price. 

Friend of mine lost his Ping account because one of their "secret shoppers" came into the pro shop, spent almost an hour giving him a made up sob story trying to buy a Ping fairway wood for $25 less than the MSRP to which my friend, being a nice guy, finally acceded to.  Few days later Ping was in touch letting him know his account with them was being closed because he did not sell at Ping's MSRP.   Additionally, when one looks at larger online retailers offering "20% off orders of $250 or more!" I see small print that says "Ping and XXX excluded from this promotion". 

Language parsing aside, there are a few companies that do whatever they can legally do to keep a high floor under their list prices and seem to be able to do that on a consistent, continuing basis.

[Dog Faced Pony Soldier]

3 hours ago, Bobbers said:

Friend of mine lost his Ping account because one of their "secret shoppers" came into the pro shop, spent almost an hour giving him a made up sob story trying to buy a Ping fairway wood for $25 less than the MSRP to which my friend, being a nice guy, finally acceded to.  Few days later Ping was in touch letting him know his account with them was being closed because he did not sell at Ping's MSRP.  

Not sure if we're still on topic or not but I'll continue to add my professional perspective if its welcome. 

Imagine you're (like me or the Ping manager) managing a major consumer brand with a protected network of authorized dealers. These agreements being made with retailers are anything-but happening by accident. Both parties are strategically and carefully choosing their partners. Being successful in this specific process itself is how and why people are getting paid to manage territories/regions. 

It's simply absurd to think a partnership would be broken over a single discounted in-person sale... especially after the salesperson invested so much time with them. It's like saying you divorced your wife because she spent too much money on groceries one time. If your friend's dealer had their account terminated it wasn't because of a discount given to a secret shopper; someone was already unhappy with the partnership. Perhaps that's why someone would invest in sending in a secret shopper. 

Edited February 18, 2022 by Dog Faced Pony Soldier

[ChiefMikeOfficer]

16 minutes ago, Dog Faced Pony Soldier said:

Not sure if we're still on topic or not but I'll continue to add my professional perspective if its welcome. 

Imagine you're (like me or the Ping manager) managing a major consumer brand with a protected network of authorized dealers. These agreements being made with retailers are anything-but happening by accident. Both parties are strategically and carefully choosing their partners. Being successful in this specific process itself is how and why people are getting paid to manage territories/regions. 

It's simply absurd to think a partnership would be broken over a single discounted in-person sale... especially after the salesperson invested so much time with them. It's like saying you divorced your wife because she spent too much money on groceries one time. If your friend's dealer had their account terminated it wasn't because of a discount given to a secret shopper; someone was already unhappy with the partnership. Perhaps that's why someone would invest in sending in a secret shopper. 

Secret shoppers are common in many industries. Sometimes it's to verify pricing; other times it's ensuring product quality on the shelf (e.g. groceries).

With golf clubs, this actually happens, and it's not just sour relationships - multiple examples have been referenced in this thread. You have plenty of valid points on the legality of requiring certain prices and that MAP actually means, but private contracts still exist, and violating them means you risk the partnership. How many of the "can't advertise, see cart" situations happen with the actual new releases vs. things that are going out of style? My buying experience says it's rarely ever something that's brand new -- if you can point me to a shop that has a legit Callaway contract and is willing to sell me a Rogue ST Triple Diamond LS driver for $400-450, please point me that direction and there's a very good chance I buy. My point is that, even if legal, the actual retailers with contracts are not willing to risk their contracts by selling lower (yes, they might sell lower to a friend or frequent purchaser, but not to any consumer). 

And shifting back to the original topic for this thread: Club Champion absolutely will not risk their contracts with their suppliers by selling lower than MAP. Losing a single contract (club or shaft) will destroy their reputation. Their statement is accurate for their business model - if you buy from them, expect to pay MAP; if you have a friend in the business willing to do a back-office deal for less than MAP, good for you, it's just not what any consumer should expect from CC or any other retailer.

[Dog Faced Pony Soldier]

Its starting to get genuinely amusing to see people envision retailers really want to discount but that pesky dealer agreement prevents them. They’re selling at MAP because that’s the highest price accepted in the marketplace! If a salesperson really wants to sell someone clubs at a discount there isn’t a manufacturer’s dealer agreement in the US that says they have to sell at retail. As I said, it’s illegal to demand products be sold at any specific price. I close by challenging anyone to share any US retail dealer agreement that says otherwise. It doesn’t exist. 
 

By all means though, if you guys want to believe retailers are contractually prevented from discounting an in-person sale, it’s no skin off my back. 

Edited February 18, 2022 by Dog Faced Pony Soldier

[ChiefMikeOfficer]

18 minutes ago, Dog Faced Pony Soldier said:

Its starting to get genuinely amusing to see people envision retailers really want to discount but that pesky dealer agreement prevents them. They’re selling at MAP because that’s the highest price accepted in the marketplace! If a salesperson really wants to sell someone clubs at a discount there isn’t a dealer agreement in the US that says they have to sell at retail. As I said, it’s illegal to demand products be sold at any specific price. I close by challenging anyone to share any US retail dealer agreement that says otherwise. It doesn’t exist. 
 

By all means though, if you guys want to believe retailers are contractually prevented from discounting an in-person sale, it’s no skin off my back. 

Yes, a retailer can sell the product to someone below MAP. No, they will not make their general price for their buyers below MAP. Totally different points, and both have truth to them.

Nobody is saying they can't sell below MAP to an individual, it's that they won't sell below MAP to the general public (and in the context of their blog post, their public price is MAP because anything less will risk their partnership - risk is different from cancel). That's not specific to CC - other retailers function the same way. 

You challenge others to share a retail agreement stating the price is required. But I (we?) don't have access to the contract verbage, just experiences that say retailers are held to specific prices. It's again a legal vs. practical thing - instead of asking for documents that we clearly can't access from the legal perspective, I'm asking you the opposite from a practical perspective: do you have a legitimate retailer that will sell these new releases to the general public at a price under MAP? Please send a link - I'm ready to buy. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

8 hours ago, Dog Faced Pony Soldier said:

Its starting to get genuinely amusing to see people envision retailers really want to discount but that pesky dealer agreement prevents them. They’re selling at MAP because that’s the highest price accepted in the marketplace! If a salesperson really wants to sell someone clubs at a discount there isn’t a manufacturer’s dealer agreement in the US that says they have to sell at retail. As I said, it’s illegal to demand products be sold at any specific price. I close by challenging anyone to share any US retail dealer agreement that says otherwise. It doesn’t exist. 
 

By all means though, if you guys want to believe retailers are contractually prevented from discounting an in-person sale, it’s no skin off my back. 

I’ve had many conversations with my old fitter who was also responsible for all sales at the shop. He was approached  numerous times by Ping secret shoppers over the years and never budged because he wasn’t going to lose the account. He’s the one that told me about other accounts in the area that lost their account for selling less than pings price.

You can believe what you want and call us whatever you want for our personal experiences but map is the lowest price you a retailer is going to sell for. Some places may be between map and msrp or every over msrp but won’t be listed or sold below it 

[cnosil]

8 hours ago, Dog Faced Pony Soldier said:

Its starting to get genuinely amusing to see people envision retailers really want to discount but that pesky dealer agreement prevents them. They’re selling at MAP because that’s the highest price accepted in the marketplace! If a salesperson really wants to sell someone clubs at a discount there isn’t a manufacturer’s dealer agreement in the US that says they have to sell at retail. As I said, it’s illegal to demand products be sold at any specific price. I close by challenging anyone to share any US retail dealer agreement that says otherwise. It doesn’t exist. 
 

By all means though, if you guys want to believe retailers are contractually prevented from discounting an in-person sale, it’s no skin off my back. 

It is not illegal for a company to contractually obligate a company to sell their product for a specific price.  I already referenced Federal Trade Commission information that says it is legal.  I agree that companies can sell for below MAP as that is the lowest price they can advertise as long as there isn’t a pricing contract.   IF a reseller can sell for whatever price they want and it is illegal to have a manufacturer dictate pricing, why are so many products not put on sale or excluded from promotional discounts/coupons?     Yes, without a pricing contract a company can sell a product below MAP or MSRP.  As others have mentioned, Ping is the best example, companies can dictate pricing to resellers and is often part of the contract that allows the company to resell a manufacturers product.  

[AztecGolfer]

Been playing for 40 years.  Have been "fit" several - NO MANY - times.  Each time was about 30 minutes for irons and 30 minutes for driver/woods.  Got feed-up with the process after going through Club Champion fitting process.  Found a Master Club Builder who spent 12.5 hours with me over 3 days and fit everything from woods, irons and putter.  My new clubs , build by him, are so much better than anything fit by the OEMs and I learned a great deal in the process.  All my new clubs are MOI matched and shafts purred.  I'll always use a Master Club Builder from now on. Would encourage your attention to the Association of Golf Clubfitting Professionals (AGCP).  I could not have asked for a better experience.  Good Luck.

[flyingwedges]

12 hours ago, cnosil said:

It is not illegal for a company to contractually obligate a company to sell their product for a specific price.  I already referenced Federal Trade Commission information that says it is legal.  I agree that companies can sell for below MAP as that is the lowest price they can advertise as long as there isn’t a pricing contract.   IF a reseller can sell for whatever price they want and it is illegal to have a manufacturer dictate pricing, why are so many products not put on sale or excluded from promotional discounts/coupons?     Yes, without a pricing contract a company can sell a product below MAP or MSRP.  As others have mentioned, Ping is the best example, companies can dictate pricing to resellers and is often part of the contract that allows the company to resell a manufacturers product.  

Can anyone answer these questions:  Does CC buy a full set of irons with shafts and grips, pull the shafts and reshaft with the suggested shaft from the fitting, OR does it have the contractual ability with OEMS to buy heads only?  If they are buying heads only, and not a complete set of irons, how does MAP or MSRP enter into the price charged to their customer?

[flyingwedges]

2 hours ago, AztecGolfer said:

Been playing for 40 years.  Have been "fit" several - NO MANY - times.  Each time was about 30 minutes for irons and 30 minutes for driver/woods.  Got feed-up with the process after going through Club Champion fitting process.  Found a Master Club Builder who spent 12.5 hours with me over 3 days and fit everything from woods, irons and putter.  My new clubs , build by him, are so much better than anything fit by the OEMs and I learned a great deal in the process.  All my new clubs are MOI matched and shafts purred.  I'll always use a Master Club Builder from now on. Would encourage your attention to the Association of Golf Clubfitting Professionals (AGCP).  I could not have asked for a better experience.  Good Luck.

12.5 hours?   How does he / she recoup that cost?

[cnosil]

2 minutes ago, flyingwedges said:

Can anyone answer these questions:  Does CC buy a full set of irons with shafts and grips, pull the shafts and reshaft with the suggested shaft from the fitting, OR does it have the contractual ability with OEMS to buy heads only?  If they are buying heads only, and not a complete set of irons, how does MAP or MSRP enter into the price charged to their customer?

CC provides their answer here:  https://clubchampiongolf.com/blog/misconceptions/

 

[63to69]

Have done a few fittings (I don’t fit standard clubs) so every time I get new clubs I have to be fitted. 
 

club champion was okay, but salesy. Seemed to be pushing Calloway Apex irons. Didn’t feel they went far enough with shafts, shaft weights, etc. 

Orlando club pro. Had a specific “style” and fitted me to his style. Spent a year trying to get used to the Srixon irons and never could. Weird misses (for me), hard to hit, not really a appropriate fit for me  (This guy had fit big name pros…)

Pxg. Best fitting experience. Tried a few heads, lots of loft, lie and shaft combos. Upright, longer, heavy shafts, bigger grips, stepped stiff… Liked the series 2 irons best. Fitter said that happened 75% of the time. 

in closing, I met a Golf Channel personality (former tour player) and he said fitting was not a science, or consistent from fitter to fitter. That was my experience. 

i thought it was like fitting a suit (either it’s right or not). That’s not the case. Try and find a fitter that will adjust the clubs after the sale.