Jump to content
TESTERS WANTED! ×

Does anyone have experiance with the Fujikura Ventus 4t Core shaft included with the new Tour Edge Exotics EXS 220


collins_xander

Recommended Posts

4 minutes ago, blackngold_blood said:

It isn't mistaking feel for performance. Just because a shaft feels good to a person doesn't mean it is the right fit performance wise. I stated that the difference in feel between shafts can lead to a difference in how a person delivers the club to the ball. If you feel a shaft is too stiff when you swing you may try to swing too hard and vise versa. If a shaft feels to whippy you may try to hang back a little to help close or open the face. The two shafts could be very close on the ei chart but still drastically different due to materials used. You hear it all the time in reviews. It is the reason there are so many different shafts on the market as well as in each category of shafts.
Now as far as if the TM Ventus, Ventus 4T, and Ventus Velocore are the same, how is anybody wrong saying they aren't the same shaft? They use different materials, 70 ton vs 40 ton vs whatever TM uses. Some of the materials are the same but not all of them therefore they are different. Stiffness profiles could be similar but that doesn't make them the same or even mean they will perform similarly.

Sent from my Moto Z3 Play using MyGolfSpy mobile app
 

You are now adding variables. All things equal (human swing included), two shafts with the same stiffness profile should have the same end result as long as there is not a drastic difference in torque (several degrees difference, below 5 degrees is not going to really impact club head delivery with exception to maybe extreme cases). Now, differences in feel may impact the way the human loads/delivers the club but now we are talking about a change in human performance, not the performance of the shaft. Also, two shafts that have an identical stiffness profile but only differ in torque (higher modulus/strength material in bias layer = lower torque) are more similar than not regardless of how they feel to the human swinging. 

Also, what I took exception to that started this back and forth was the comment that the two shafts were nothing alike and the only thing that they had in common was the name. That comment was based on feel perception which is very subjective and comments like these continue to perpetuate the myth that high dollar aftermarket shafts are universally better in some way or another than the company's OEM program shafts. 

:titelist-small:  TS2 9.5

:titelist-small:  909F2 15.5

:titelist-small:  690.CB 3-PW

:titelist-small:  Vokey SM5 50, 56

image.png.e50b7e7a9b18feff4720d7b223a2013d.png   Works Versa 1W

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, storm319 said:

You are now adding variables. All things equal (human swing included), two shafts with the same stiffness profile should have the same end result as long as there is not a drastic difference in torque (several degrees difference, below 5 degrees is not going to really impact club head delivery with exception to maybe extreme cases). Now, differences in feel may impact the way the human loads/delivers the club but now we are talking about a change in human performance, not the performance of the shaft. Also, two shafts that have an identical stiffness profile but only differ in torque (higher modulus/strength material in bias layer = lower torque) are more similar than not regardless of how they feel to the human swinging. 

Also, what I took exception to that started this back and forth was the comment that the two shafts were nothing alike and the only thing that they had in common was the name. That comment was based on feel perception which is very subjective and comments like these continue to perpetuate the myth that high dollar aftermarket shafts are universally better in some way or another than the company's OEM program shafts. 

No two people swing clubs so yes human factor is a variable.

nobody said they two shafts were based on feel perception. They are different shafts because they use different material. That’s a fact because as you have said they don’t use the 70t prepreg. They all shaft the ventus names and that’s the the commonality like it or not.

A shaft with a 3.8 torque is going to feel different from a 3.1 torque. Depending on the EI profile two shafts with a  3.1 torque will feel different for some. There’s plenty of shafts in the market that share similar specs with torque, weight and even relatively close EI profiles that play different for different swings. 
 

Whether you like it or not there are shafts that share a name from the same company that are built with different materials. 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You are now adding variables. All things equal (human swing included), two shafts with the same stiffness profile should have the same end result as long as there is not a drastic difference in torque (several degrees difference, below 5 degrees is not going to really impact club head delivery with exception to maybe extreme cases). Now, differences in feel may impact the way the human loads/delivers the club but now we are talking about a change in human performance, not the performance of the shaft. Also, two shafts that have an identical stiffness profile but only differ in torque (higher modulus/strength material in bias layer = lower torque) are more similar than not regardless of how they feel to the human swinging. 

Also, what I took exception to that started this back and forth was the comment that the two shafts were nothing alike and the only thing that they had in common was the name. That comment was based on feel perception which is very subjective and comments like these continue to perpetuate the myth that high dollar aftermarket shafts are universally better in some way or another than the company's OEM program shafts. 

2 things before I bow out of this one.

 

1. Performance should be solely based on a human swing and not robots. Robots are not swinging the club for you so why do you include them in performance? Why do shafts with the same stiffness profile HAVE to perform the same? The human swing is the main basis of golf and you can't eliminate that because of human error. A shaft's performance is different for everybody and there is nothing wrong with that. The Human variable can not be eliminated when discussing performance, which is why MGS Most Wanted and forum testing include a wide range of golfers of all skill levels.

 

2. You are upset about the comment about them having nothing but name in common but are arguing that they MAY have a similar stiffness profile. Where is the ei chart proving this? Can you post it for us? If it doesn't exist yet then everything you are arguing about the Ventus shaft is opinion based off a completely different shaft, Aldila Rogue since that is the one you named.

 

Sent from my Moto Z3 Play using MyGolfSpy mobile app

 

 

 

 

 

 

What is in my Sun Mountain C-130 bag or Jones MyGolfSpy bag

Driver:    :cobra-small: Dark speed LS 8* set to -1.5* with an Attas Daaas 4x shaft @ 45”

Fairway: :srixon-small: F85 3 wood with a XPhplexx Agera X @ 42.5”

 :srixon-small: F85 5 wood with a UST Elements Chrome 7F5 @ 41.5"

Driving Iron: :ping-small: Rapture 2-Iron 

Irons: :edel-golf-1: SMS Pros 4-PW with Steelfiber I95s 

Wedges: :edel-golf-1: SMS 50* T grind with Steelfiber i110s

               :ping-small: Glide 4.0 46* zz wedge shaft

               :ping-small: Glide 4.0 E grind 54* zz wedge shaft

Putters: :L.A.B.: Mezz.1 34” 69* lie

              :EVNROLL: EV5.1 black 33.5” 69* lie

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

No two people swing clubs so yes human factor is a variable.

nobody said they two shafts were based on feel perception. They are different shafts because they use different material. That’s a fact because as you have said they don’t use the 70t prepreg. They all shaft the ventus names and that’s the the commonality like it or not.

A shaft with a 3.8 torque is going to feel different from a 3.1 torque. Depending on the EI profile two shafts with a  3.1 torque will feel different for some. There’s plenty of shafts in the market that share similar specs with torque, weight and even relatively close EI profiles that play different for different swings. 
 

Whether you like it or not there are shafts that share a name from the same company that are built with different materials. 

By that logic the aftermarket Ventus in X flex is different than the S or R flex because they use different modulus/strength material in certain areas. Many times that is how the shaft OEMs view it but that is not always how it is marketed. 

If two shafts have the same weight, weight distribution, stiffness profile, and relatively similar torque but still end up with a different result, it isn't the shaft that is playing different, it is the human swinging it. You do realize that the materials are a means to an end to hit these target measurables (amongst others), don't you?

:titelist-small:  TS2 9.5

:titelist-small:  909F2 15.5

:titelist-small:  690.CB 3-PW

:titelist-small:  Vokey SM5 50, 56

image.png.e50b7e7a9b18feff4720d7b223a2013d.png   Works Versa 1W

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, storm319 said:

By that logic the aftermarket Ventus in X flex is different than the S or R flex because they use different modulus/strength material in certain areas. Many times that is how the shaft OEMs view it but that is not always how it is marketed. 

If two shafts have the same weight, weight distribution, stiffness profile, and relatively similar torque but still end up with a different result, it isn't the shaft that is playing different, it is the human swinging it. You do realize that the materials are a means to an end to hit these target measurables (amongst others), don't you?

Technically yes they would be different shafts but they all use the same technology of the velocore aka 70t so they have more than the name in common. It’s the underlying prepregs that determine the flex and weight but they use they normally use the same mandrell and overall design. It doesn’t take much to make a stiff an x stiff.

i do realize that the materials are a means to an end. I’ve need to UST Mamiya and saw how they go about their design and shaft making. I’ve been to PX and saw their process to include what they use to design a shaft and how changing materials, flag length, flag orientation and such change the EI profile and other design aspects to include having an even flow blue shaft redesigned based on my feedback of testing the shaft for several weeks prior to going to their facility. I got to watch their main design guy create one off shafts for other guys based on their feedback and what they would like to see in ball flight and feel to include one guy saying he likes the design of a shaft from another brand and that he would like certain aspects of that included in his custom shaft. While there we got to hand roll the shafts ourselves so I have made a shaft using the build spec sheet and laying the flags on the mandrel. 
 

 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, blackngold_blood said:

2 things before I bow out of this one.

 

1. Performance should be solely based on a human swing and not robots. Robots are not swinging the club for you so why do you include them in performance? Why do shafts with the same stiffness profile HAVE to perform the same? The human swing is the main basis of golf and you can't eliminate that because of human error. A shaft's performance is different for everybody and there is nothing wrong with that. The Human variable can not be eliminated when discussing performance, which is why MGS Most Wanted and forum testing include a wide range of golfers of all skill levels.

 

2. You are upset about the comment about them having nothing but name in common but are arguing that they MAY have a similar stiffness profile. Where is the ei chart proving this? Can you post it for us? If it doesn't exist yet then everything you are arguing about the Ventus shaft is opinion based off a completely different shaft, Aldila Rogue since that is the one you named.

 

Sent from my Moto Z3 Play using MyGolfSpy mobile app

 

 

 

1) Are you trying to compare the performance difference of the shafts in isolation or also adding in the human variable? When MGS performs their most wanted test they are not isolating the comparison down to a single variable (nor do they claim to be), so that is not an apples to apples comparison. My point is that a human cannot deduce the stiffness profile based on how a shaft feels which is what people were implying (you illustrated this point with your comments on the Aldila Rogue)


"If we use your example of the Aldila Rogue 125MSI and the 110MSI and them have basically the same stiffness profile, they should play the same. I tried them both and they were night and day different for me. The same length and weight 110 felt harsh while the 125 felt significantly smoother and easier to load. So to me I would have guessed that the 110 was stiffer."

In this case it was you the human that were the cause of any difference in performance, not the shaft's stiffness profile. Also, bringing up the Rogue was an example of people jumping to the wrong conclusion based on hype when in reality there was very little difference (especially with the fairly extreme price disparity). But please keep telling yourself whatever you want to justify the added cost as the market needs people to adopt early and often to give the OEMs incentive to release new product every year 🙂

 

2) Have you read anything from Fujikura? This is not my opinion but based on Fuji's comments that the only difference was in the material used in the bias layup which effects torque not stiffness (from there you can deduce that the stiffness profile should be the same if there were no changes to those layups assuming that Fuji's comment is accurate). If you want to say that the shafts felt significantly different to you, that is fine, but stop perpetuating the idea that aftermarket shafts > OEM shafts without objective data. 

:titelist-small:  TS2 9.5

:titelist-small:  909F2 15.5

:titelist-small:  690.CB 3-PW

:titelist-small:  Vokey SM5 50, 56

image.png.e50b7e7a9b18feff4720d7b223a2013d.png   Works Versa 1W

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, storm319 said:

1) Are you trying to compare the performance difference of the shafts in isolation or also adding in the human variable? When MGS performs their most wanted test they are not isolating the comparison down to a single variable (nor do they claim to be), so that is not an apples to apples comparison. My point is that a human cannot deduce the stiffness profile based on how a shaft feels which is what people were implying (you illustrated this point with your comments on the Aldila Rogue)


"If we use your example of the Aldila Rogue 125MSI and the 110MSI and them have basically the same stiffness profile, they should play the same. I tried them both and they were night and day different for me. The same length and weight 110 felt harsh while the 125 felt significantly smoother and easier to load. So to me I would have guessed that the 110 was stiffer."

In this case it was you the human that were the cause of any difference in performance, not the shaft's stiffness profile. Also, bringing up the Rogue was an example of people jumping to the wrong conclusion based on hype when in reality there was very little difference (especially with the fairly extreme price disparity). But please keep telling yourself whatever you want to justify the added cost as the market needs people to adopt early and often to give the OEMs incentive to release new product every year 🙂

 

2) Have you read anything from Fujikura? This is not my opinion but based on Fuji's comments that the only difference was in the material used in the bias layup which effects torque not stiffness (from there you can deduce that the stiffness profile should be the same if there were no changes to those layups assuming that Fuji's comment is accurate). If you want to say that the shafts felt significantly different to you, that is fine, but stop perpetuating the idea that aftermarket shafts > OEM shafts without objective data. 

Materials used will affect stiffness T1100 has a different stiffness than 40t which has a different stiffness than 70t. Changing materials can affect one or the other. It boils down to the number of flags used, the material used in each layer, the length of each flag and the orientation of each layer. I’ve seen a shaft made with 12 layers that played to the same stiffness as one with 7 and they used different materials in the build. 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I'm done here. OP sorry to hijack your thread. I have no experience with the Ventus 4T and so far the only thing we know is it may or may not be the same "stiffness" as the velocore version while at the same time using different materials. Hope this helps!

Sent from my Moto Z3 Play using MyGolfSpy mobile app

 

 

 

What is in my Sun Mountain C-130 bag or Jones MyGolfSpy bag

Driver:    :cobra-small: Dark speed LS 8* set to -1.5* with an Attas Daaas 4x shaft @ 45”

Fairway: :srixon-small: F85 3 wood with a XPhplexx Agera X @ 42.5”

 :srixon-small: F85 5 wood with a UST Elements Chrome 7F5 @ 41.5"

Driving Iron: :ping-small: Rapture 2-Iron 

Irons: :edel-golf-1: SMS Pros 4-PW with Steelfiber I95s 

Wedges: :edel-golf-1: SMS 50* T grind with Steelfiber i110s

               :ping-small: Glide 4.0 46* zz wedge shaft

               :ping-small: Glide 4.0 E grind 54* zz wedge shaft

Putters: :L.A.B.: Mezz.1 34” 69* lie

              :EVNROLL: EV5.1 black 33.5” 69* lie

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Materials used will affect stiffness T1100 has a different stiffness than 40t which has a different stiffness than 70t. Changing materials can affect one or the other. It boils down to the number of flags used, the material used in each layer, the length of each flag and the orientation of each layer. I’ve seen a shaft made with 12 layers that played to the same stiffness as one with 7 and they used different materials in the build. 

One last time then I am out:

Reference to VeloCore: https://mygolfspy.com/shaft-review-fujikura-ventus/

     "The summary version of which is that Ventus features full-length, pitch 70-ton fiber in the bias layer."

Reference to primary orientations: https://mygolfspy.com/shaft-university-design-101-part-ii/

     "+/- 45 degree orientations (known as the bias layer, fibers across the length of the shaft that affect twisting)" - aka torque

     "0 degree (fibers along the length of the shaft that affect bending)" - aka stiffness

Fujikura's reference to the differences between the different Ventus shafts: GolfWRX (not sure about the MGS forum rules on posting links to a competing forum) & reposted by @zrumble to this thread

     "The STOCK shafts used in the new TaylorMade products is a Ventus part without VeloCore Technology (no Pitch 70 ton or 40 ton in the bias core) that we worked in conjunction with         TM to optimize the performance for a wide range of golfers. Please refer to TaylorMade for specs.

     note: TaylorMade is the ONLY company offering ventus without VeloCore as their stock shaft. And their custom upgrade shafts are the aftermarket versions, hence the upcharge. So if       you see a ventus part at another OEM it is our aftermarket part with VeloCore and carries a $350 MSRP. the only exception is Tour Edge has a Ventus with "4T Core" which is same             construction as VeloCore, but without the $$$ Pitch 70T material. 4T core is all high-mod 40 Ton in the full length bias core."

 

So no need to continually post about generic differences in materials, flags, and orientations because a representative for Fujikura already disclosed the difference between these versions (and if that comment is accurate, the 0 degree orientation that effects stiffness is the same between both versions therefore the stiffness profile should be the same within respective tolerances).

:titelist-small:  TS2 9.5

:titelist-small:  909F2 15.5

:titelist-small:  690.CB 3-PW

:titelist-small:  Vokey SM5 50, 56

image.png.e50b7e7a9b18feff4720d7b223a2013d.png   Works Versa 1W

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, storm319 said:

One last time then I am out:

Reference to VeloCore: https://mygolfspy.com/shaft-review-fujikura-ventus/

     "The summary version of which is that Ventus features full-length, pitch 70-ton fiber in the bias layer."

Reference to primary orientations: https://mygolfspy.com/shaft-university-design-101-part-ii/

     "+/- 45 degree orientations (known as the bias layer, fibers across the length of the shaft that affect twisting)" - aka torque

     "0 degree (fibers along the length of the shaft that affect bending)" - aka stiffness

Fujikura's reference to the differences between the different Ventus shafts: GolfWRX (not sure about the MGS forum rules on posting links to a competing forum) & reposted by @zrumble to this thread

     "The STOCK shafts used in the new TaylorMade products is a Ventus part without VeloCore Technology (no Pitch 70 ton or 40 ton in the bias core) that we worked in conjunction with         TM to optimize the performance for a wide range of golfers. Please refer to TaylorMade for specs.

     note: TaylorMade is the ONLY company offering ventus without VeloCore as their stock shaft. And their custom upgrade shafts are the aftermarket versions, hence the upcharge. So if       you see a ventus part at another OEM it is our aftermarket part with VeloCore and carries a $350 MSRP. the only exception is Tour Edge has a Ventus with "4T Core" which is same             construction as VeloCore, but without the $$$ Pitch 70T material. 4T core is all high-mod 40 Ton in the full length bias core."

 

So no need to continually post about generic differences in materials, flags, and orientations because a representative for Fujikura already disclosed the difference between these versions (and if that comment is accurate, the 0 degree orientation that effects stiffness is the same between both versions therefore the stiffness profile should be the same within respective tolerances).

Should be and are the same are two different things. Until you have the EI profiles you are guessing. 
 

The bottom line is fujikura markets the ventus based on velocore technology. When the 70t prepreg is remover any shaft without it is just a ventus in name. It doesn’t matter if the shafts play the same, have the same EI profile or not they are just a shaft using the name ventus. It’s why tm distinguished between ventus red or ventus blue for the no upcharge shaft and have the Ventura red, blue, and black with velocore in the name plus $250 upgrade charge on their site. This is to distinguish they are different. The TEE ventus 4t is also just a ventus name minus the 70t .

Club manufacturers talk with shaft manufacturers to find out what shaft or shafts they will be pushing for the upcoming year and then work with them to on how they can get that line in their club release. They work out price points and then the club manufacturer determines if it will be a stock offering similar to hzrdus smoke green in Callaway and TM or an upcharge shaft. At times like with the ventus, Atmos, pro 2.0 they request a made for shaft. This has been going on for years.

With all that said I’m joining blackngoold and I’m out. 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Should be and are the same are two different things. Until you have the EI profiles you are guessing. 
 

The bottom line is fujikura markets the ventus based on velocore technology. When the 70t prepreg is remover any shaft without it is just a ventus in name. It doesn’t matter if the shafts play the same, have the same EI profile or not they are just a shaft using the name ventus. It’s why tm distinguished between ventus red or ventus blue for the no upcharge shaft and have the Ventura red, blue, and black with velocore in the name plus $250 upgrade charge on their site. This is to distinguish they are different. The TEE ventus 4t is also just a ventus name minus the 70t .

Club manufacturers talk with shaft manufacturers to find out what shaft or shafts they will be pushing for the upcoming year and then work with them to on how they can get that line in their club release. They work out price points and then the club manufacturer determines if it will be a stock offering similar to hzrdus smoke green in Callaway and TM or an upcharge shaft. At times like with the ventus, Atmos, pro 2.0 they request a made for shaft. This has been going on for years.

With all that said I’m joining blackngoold and I’m out. 

With all due respect...

My response to the stupid stuff people post - post - Imgur

 

Edited by storm319

:titelist-small:  TS2 9.5

:titelist-small:  909F2 15.5

:titelist-small:  690.CB 3-PW

:titelist-small:  Vokey SM5 50, 56

image.png.e50b7e7a9b18feff4720d7b223a2013d.png   Works Versa 1W

Link to comment
Share on other sites

With all due respect...
VlArQpi.png
 
Well I guess I'm back for one more comment!
I don't care that you said with all due respect. I don't care if you were kidding or trying to make a joke. Using a Meme to call someone's comment idiotic and claiming to be dumber because of it is something you can keep to yourself. That is not how things work here.
Maybe I am just cranky from all this covid stuff but you can keep it civil or go somewhere else.

Sent from my Moto Z3 Play using MyGolfSpy mobile app

 

 

 

What is in my Sun Mountain C-130 bag or Jones MyGolfSpy bag

Driver:    :cobra-small: Dark speed LS 8* set to -1.5* with an Attas Daaas 4x shaft @ 45”

Fairway: :srixon-small: F85 3 wood with a XPhplexx Agera X @ 42.5”

 :srixon-small: F85 5 wood with a UST Elements Chrome 7F5 @ 41.5"

Driving Iron: :ping-small: Rapture 2-Iron 

Irons: :edel-golf-1: SMS Pros 4-PW with Steelfiber I95s 

Wedges: :edel-golf-1: SMS 50* T grind with Steelfiber i110s

               :ping-small: Glide 4.0 46* zz wedge shaft

               :ping-small: Glide 4.0 E grind 54* zz wedge shaft

Putters: :L.A.B.: Mezz.1 34” 69* lie

              :EVNROLL: EV5.1 black 33.5” 69* lie

Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, blackngold_blood said:

Well I guess I'm back for one more comment!
I don't care that you said with all due respect. I don't care if you were kidding or trying to make a joke. Using a Meme to call someone's comment idiotic and claiming to be dumber because of it is something you can keep to yourself. That is not how things work here.
Maybe I am just cranky from all this covid stuff but you can keep it civil or go somewhere else.

Sent from my Moto Z3 Play using MyGolfSpy mobile app
 

image.jpeg.67ee6e5b751d7b324fc00f4f519bcc29.jpeg

:titelist-small:  TS2 9.5

:titelist-small:  909F2 15.5

:titelist-small:  690.CB 3-PW

:titelist-small:  Vokey SM5 50, 56

image.png.e50b7e7a9b18feff4720d7b223a2013d.png   Works Versa 1W

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, storm319 said:

With all due respect...

My response to the stupid stuff people post - post - Imgur

 

With all due respect you are missing information in your claims about what fujikura is saying and assuming that stiffness profiles should be the same. What other materials are used in the ventus version other than the 70t prepreg, how many flags do the use, how many run the full length of the shaft, are they all oriented the same?  When they removed the 70t for the 40t did they do a one for one swap, did they change any other flags or their orientation, did they soften or stiffen the tip or butt sections, are the other materials from the ventus version kept in the 4t design? 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

With all due respect you are missing information in your claims about what fujikura is saying and assuming that stiffness profiles should be the same. What other materials are used in the ventus version other than the 70t prepreg, how many flags do the use, how many run the full length of the shaft, are they all oriented the same?  When they removed the 70t for the 40t did they do a one for one swap, did they change any other flags or their orientation, did they soften or stiffen the tip or butt sections, are the other materials from the ventus version kept in the 4t design? 

Here is the quote from Fujikura from WRX for the 3rd time in this thread with the segment on the TEE version bolded. If you still can’t accept this I’d recommend that you reach out to Fujikura directly for further clarification.

https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1789613/the-new-ventus-black/p14

“The STOCK shafts used in the new TaylorMade products is a Ventus part without VeloCore Technology (no Pitch 70 ton or 40 ton in the bias core) that we worked in conjunction with TM to optimize the performance for a wide range of golfers. Please refer to TaylorMade for specs.

     note: TaylorMade is the ONLY company offering ventus without VeloCore as their stock shaft. And their custom upgrade shafts are the aftermarket versions, hence the upcharge. So if       you see a ventus part at another OEM it is our aftermarket part with VeloCore and carries a $350 MSRP. the only exception is Tour Edge has a Ventus with "4T Core" which is same construction as VeloCore, but without the $$$ Pitch 70T material. 4T core is all high-mod 40 Ton in the full length bias core."

:titelist-small:  TS2 9.5

:titelist-small:  909F2 15.5

:titelist-small:  690.CB 3-PW

:titelist-small:  Vokey SM5 50, 56

image.png.e50b7e7a9b18feff4720d7b223a2013d.png   Works Versa 1W

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, storm319 said:

Here is the quote from Fujikura from WRX for the 3rd time in this thread with the segment on the TEE version bolded. If you still can’t accept this I’d recommend that you reach out to Fujikura directly for further clarification.

https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1789613/the-new-ventus-black/p14

“The STOCK shafts used in the new TaylorMade products is a Ventus part without VeloCore Technology (no Pitch 70 ton or 40 ton in the bias core) that we worked in conjunction with TM to optimize the performance for a wide range of golfers. Please refer to TaylorMade for specs.

     note: TaylorMade is the ONLY company offering ventus without VeloCore as their stock shaft. And their custom upgrade shafts are the aftermarket versions, hence the upcharge. So if       you see a ventus part at another OEM it is our aftermarket part with VeloCore and carries a $350 MSRP. the only exception is Tour Edge has a Ventus with "4T Core" which is same construction as VeloCore, but without the $$$ Pitch 70T material. 4T core is all high-mod 40 Ton in the full length bias core."

You obviously don’t know how shafts are made. Shafts don’t have just 1 piece of material and for each layer of material they use it’s not all the same type. The stiffer the shaft is the more brittle it becomes. If a shaft was made with 5 layers of 70t it would be really expensive and it would be really brittle and possibly not even playable for more than one swing.

so yes fujikura replaces their 70t with 40t, but unless you know what TEE requested the design of the 4t shaft to be you don’t know if they had to change the other pieces of prepreg that make up the shaft to account for going from 70t to 40t if they had to use more than 1 layer of 40t. The ventus has a very stiff tip maybe TEE wanted that to be softer which would change the prepeg used for the tip flag or flags. 
 

so again unless you know the design for the TEe shaft compared to how the ventus w/velocore is designed your thoughts on the stiffness profile is just a guess. The only way to know if they have the same profile is to get the EI profile for each shaft and compare them. 
 

and again when the you like the opinion or not fujikura designs and is marketing the ventus shaft based on velocore. they list 3 profiles on their site red, blue and black. This is what led to a discussion in the ventus thread about TM using the red and blue name in their stock shaft and that anyone buying that isn’t getting a true ventus shaft because it’s missing the key element of what ventus is about.  They also don’t list the 4t and there is no color for the 4t so it makes it hard to know what of the 3 profiles it was designed off. And again since it’s not using velocore the person is buying a shaft that isn’t what a ventus is about. 
 

from their website

The exceptionally engineered Ventus is designed to significantly tighten shot dispersion and maximize ball speed especially on off-center shots. Ventus is a Tour-inspired profile and the first to include Fujikura’s all-new VeloCore Technology in an accelerated taper, ultra-stiff tip profile. Maximum energy transfer from the tip section boosts the clubhead’s performance and a straight taper design enhances loading and feel.

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In Post #10, the OP quoted Fujikura, so he has his answer. Why is this thread 68 posts deep???
Man. I’m this being home all day is REALLY getting to me!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Driver: Ping G430 Max 9*, Ping Tour 70X

Fairway: Ping G425 15*, Ping Tour 70X

Hybrid: Ping G425 22*, Ping Tour 80X

Irons:  Ping i230 4-GW, TT DG X100

Wedges: :edel-golf-1: SMS 50D/54V/58D:Nippon:Modus 130 stiff, +1”

Putter:  :edel-golf-1: EAS 1.0

Ball: Titleist 2023 AVX

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, PMookie said:

In Post #10, the OP quoted Fujikura, so he has his answer. Why is this thread 68 posts deep???
Man. I’m this being home all day is REALLY getting to me!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I know right! I have literally reposted and linked that quote from the OEM but apparently that is not sufficient (maybe it takes reposting that quote  a dozen times for it to sink in for some people?).

I would have no problem if Fujikura posted a follow up that the previous post was not entirely correct and that there are other changes between the two (then the stiffness profiles could be different), but we should take them at their word until that happens.

:titelist-small:  TS2 9.5

:titelist-small:  909F2 15.5

:titelist-small:  690.CB 3-PW

:titelist-small:  Vokey SM5 50, 56

image.png.e50b7e7a9b18feff4720d7b223a2013d.png   Works Versa 1W

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, jlukes said:

A Ventus without 70t and Velocore is not really a Ventus at all.

Yes, of course the OEM will say the products are sort of similar to try to save face - but they watered down their product for marketing purposes an there is no way around it.

I would agree if not for that quote or if they had given a typical ambiguous response, but someone at Fujikura literally stated that the only difference is with the material of a single layup the orientation of which is a factor in torque, not stiffness. If it had been the 0 degree orientation that is a factor in stiffness, a material change would result in a completely different profile, but the bias orientation not so much. 

Also, a shaft is a sum of all parts, not just a single layer (regardless of what the OEM chooses to focus their marketing on).

Edited by storm319

:titelist-small:  TS2 9.5

:titelist-small:  909F2 15.5

:titelist-small:  690.CB 3-PW

:titelist-small:  Vokey SM5 50, 56

image.png.e50b7e7a9b18feff4720d7b223a2013d.png   Works Versa 1W

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, storm319 said:

I would agree if not for that quote or if they had given a typical ambiguous response, but someone at Fujikura literally stated that the only difference is with the material of a single layup the orientation of which is a factor in torque, not stiffness. If it had been the 0 degree orientation that is a factor in stiffness, a material change would result in a completely different profile, but the bias orientation not so much. 

Also, a shaft is a sum of all parts, not just a single layer (regardless of what the OEM chooses to focus their marketing on).

That is fine. I don't expect anyone from Fujikura to speak down about one of any of their products on a golf forum.  They will give you the speak that all of their products have benefits to different golfers.  Which is true.  All that matters is that a shaft fits - who cares what it says on the outside. 

Put it this way, if I gave you a Corvette with a inline 4 instead of a V8 and everything else was the same, that car might be just fine for your needs.  It gets you from point A to Point B no problem and actually does so more efficiently than the corevette with the V8.  But any true car guy/gear head knows that the corvette without V8 really isn't a Corvette.

I am sure the shaft made with the 4t carbon for Tour Edge and the Made for Ventus for TMaG fits a ton of people, but when gear heads think Ventus, they think Velocore, and the Tour Edge and TMaG shafts do not have Velocore

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, jlukes said:

That is fine. I don't expect anyone from Fujikura to speak down about one of any of their products on a golf forum.  They will give you the speak that all of their products have benefits to different golfers.  Which is true.  All that matters is that a shaft fits - who cares what it says on the outside. 

Put it this way, if I gave you a Corvette with a inline 4 instead of a V8 and everything else was the same, that car might be just fine for your needs.  It gets you from point A to Point B no problem and actually does so more efficiently than the corevette with the V8.  But any true car guy/gear head knows that the corvette without V8 really isn't a Corvette.

I am sure the shaft made with the 4t carbon for Tour Edge and the Made for Ventus for TMaG fits a ton of people, but when gear heads think Ventus, they think Velocore, and the Tour Edge and TMaG shafts do not have Velocore

The above posted Billy Madison meme also applies to your terribly exaggerated and mismatched analogy. Different transmissions may have been closer to this situation. 

So you aren’t buying Fuji’s response on the differences yet you are on board with their primary marketing? 🤔

:titelist-small:  TS2 9.5

:titelist-small:  909F2 15.5

:titelist-small:  690.CB 3-PW

:titelist-small:  Vokey SM5 50, 56

image.png.e50b7e7a9b18feff4720d7b223a2013d.png   Works Versa 1W

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

Ok I would still like to hear anyone's thoughts on the TEE version of the shaft, so if you folks are finished...

WITB: 

Adams 9064LS 9.5* (until I cracked the face)

Adams Super LS 17*

Adams XTD Ti 23*

Wilson Staff Ci7 4-PW

Adams wedges: 52/7 56/13 60/7

Wilson Staff Infinite Southside putter/Odyssey DualForce 660 putter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 7 months later...
1 hour ago, VNA13 said:

I guess the question is the 4T version closer to the quality of the velocore shaft than the ventus Shay’s in the TM products.

these shafts (the 4T)are available from retail and not as shaft pull sales

Depends what you consider quality. The 4t doesn’t have the full length 70t in its design but uses the rest of the materials used in the ventus shaft. 
 

So it has lower costing and in some people’s minds that means lower quality materials.

The other side of that is the quality of the build which would probably be the same since they come from the same factory, but what we don’t know is if the QC of the shafts for thru the same process.

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 years later...
On 5/17/2020 at 4:31 PM, AH1980MN said:

Ok I would still like to hear anyone's thoughts on the TEE version of the shaft, so if you folks are finished...

Raising this from the dead, hoping for more info on the silver TEE 4T core.

What I know is that the TEE version is listed at 3.3 degrees of torque vs 3.8 for the TM blue and 3.1 for the Velocore.

Something that's interesting is that the TEE Ventus Red 4T core s flex has the same torque as the now discontinued original silver TEE version of 3.3.  The TEE Blue Ventus is 3.7 which is just about the same as the TM and Callaway versions.

I have a TEE Blue version and it's quite different than the Red 4T core, I'm pretty sure that it's the same shaft as TM and Callaway have used.   

 

With all of that said I'm hoping that someone has more info on the 4T versions.  I'm wondering if the TEE red 4T core is the same as the original silver 4T core with different paint?  I've read that the original TEE silver 4T core was modeled after the OG Blue Velocore with the exception of 40 ton vs 70.  

 

Thanks

Tour Edge Exotics

Cleveland

Odyssey

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, bekgolf said:

Raising this from the dead, hoping for more info on the silver TEE 4T core.

What I know is that the TEE version is listed at 3.3 degrees of torque vs 3.8 for the TM blue and 3.1 for the Velocore.

Something that's interesting is that the TEE Ventus Red 4T core s flex has the same torque as the now discontinued original silver TEE version of 3.3.  The TEE Blue Ventus is 3.7 which is just about the same as the TM and Callaway versions.

I have a TEE Blue version and it's quite different than the Red 4T core, I'm pretty sure that it's the same shaft as TM and Callaway have used.   

 

With all of that said I'm hoping that someone has more info on the 4T versions.  I'm wondering if the TEE red 4T core is the same as the original silver 4T core with different paint?  I've read that the original TEE silver 4T core was modeled after the OG Blue Velocore with the exception of 40 ton vs 70.  

 

Thanks

I believe that the 4T shafts a physically the same with the only difference being the cosmetics to align with the next TEE release’s color scheme (similar to Ping with the ALTA).

:titelist-small:  TS2 9.5

:titelist-small:  909F2 15.5

:titelist-small:  690.CB 3-PW

:titelist-small:  Vokey SM5 50, 56

image.png.e50b7e7a9b18feff4720d7b223a2013d.png   Works Versa 1W

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...