Shallow AOA Help??

[Ultimate Junior Golfer]

Hello everyone, I am struggling with a shallow AOA and a shallow downswing. My backswing is not shallow, but for some reason I shallow the shaft in the downswing. This causes thin and fat shots. I have tried everything you can think of, and since most people's problem is the opposite, I can't find much help online. I do have a swing coach, but he has been shutdown due to coronavirus. Any and all tips are appreciated. Thanks in advance. Here is my swing: 

 

[bens197]

Nice swing.

 

If you want better contact, try putting a towel 2” behind the ball so that there is a small space of grass between towel and ball.

 

 

[PlaidJacket]

Ultimate - you say you're a 3.5 hcp player. That's pretty good. Your swing looks good too. You say you hit fat and thin shots. Well, don't we all sometimes. Obviously you don't hit many fats or thins during a round or you wouldn't be a 3.5 hcp player. We all have little things with our game, swing, etc that we wish could be eliminated and improved upon. As you know; this game is never mastered and improvement is a constant battle. Free your mind. Play your game. Swing your swing. You'll do just fine. 

[cnosil]

18 hours ago, Ultimate Junior Golfer said:

Hello everyone, I am struggling with a shallow AOA and a shallow downswing. My backswing is not shallow, but for some reason I shallow the shaft in the downswing. This causes thin and fat shots. I have tried everything you can think of, and since most people's problem is the opposite, I can't find much help online. I do have a swing coach, but he has been shutdown due to coronavirus. Any and all tips are appreciated. Thanks in advance. Here is my swing: 

Many players shallow on the downswing;  it is called two plane swing.   With a low handicap like you have,  I am sure you are able to get around the course effectively.   You said you have a swing coach and if he has been working with you to steepen your swing I would hope that he would have given you drills to accomplish that.   We live in a digital world and while you can't see the coach personally,  you can just as easily send the posted video to him for comments and instruction. 

[DaveP043]

I agree with the rest, in that its a really solid swing.  I see something that is probably a symptom, rather than a "cause", but your head drops down a little going back, and as you come into impact it goes back up.  You're extending both legs, but at 0:16 to 0:17 your hip rotation has just about stopped, your hips have moved a couple inches closer to the target line, and your spine has become more vertical.  The thing that will promote a more consistent "bottom of the swing arc" would be to improve rotation and maintain your posture longer.  I have no idea how you might go about achieving that, but that's my rather in-expert evaluation.

Now your instructor may tell you differently, and he has a much better chance of being correct than I do.  If you can't see him in person, I like @cnosil's suggestion of sending him video and asking for things to work on at home.

[TR1PTIK]

3 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I agree with the rest, in that its a really solid swing.  I see something that is probably a symptom, rather than a "cause", but your head drops down a little going back, and as you come into impact it goes back up.  You're extending both legs, but at 0:16 to 0:17 your hip rotation has just about stopped, your hips have moved a couple inches closer to the target line, and your spine has become more vertical.  The thing that will promote a more consistent "bottom of the swing arc" would be to improve rotation and maintain your posture longer.  I have no idea how you might go about achieving that, but that's my rather in-expert evaluation.

Now your instructor may tell you differently, and he has a much better chance of being correct than I do.  If you can't see him in person, I like @cnosil's suggestion of sending him video and asking for things to work on at home.

I second this. I don't see anything wrong with what you're doing - plenty of golfers shallow on the downswing (myself included) and many coaches would actually encourage that depending on the golfer. What I did notice immediately was that you reach a point in the downswing where your hips stop rotating and the wrists/hands keep going. More than likely, this is what's causing your fat and thin shots because when you start flipping at the ball with your hands timing becomes more important. Take a look at a pro golfer's impact position vs. your impact position.

Those are my thoughts, but if you are working with an instructor then you need to have a discussion with him before you start making changes IMO.

[Scientific Golfer]

On 3/27/2020 at 2:06 PM, Ultimate Junior Golfer said:

Hello everyone, I am struggling with a shallow AOA and a shallow downswing. My backswing is not shallow, but for some reason I shallow the shaft in the downswing. This causes thin and fat shots. Thanks in advance. Here is my swing: 

 

I don't get where you got the idea that your angle of attack and downswing are too shallow, and even more so that they are causing you fat and thin shots. I can post slow motion swings of Rory Mcilroy and Sergio Garcia with similar shaft positions to you on the downswing. If anything I'd say (like some of the others that posted) that posture changes are what is causing you problems. They aren't drastic, but over all it looks like your legs have some overactive movement during the backswing (which causes the posture to change), that your back foot gets off the ground sooner than necessary on the downswing and your legs and hips underneath you and towards the target line, and causes your belt line to go from the diagonal at setup to very horizontal at impact. 

[Ultimate Junior Golfer]

1 minute ago, Scientific Golfer said:

I don't get where you got the idea that your angle of attack and downswing are too shallow, and even more so that they are causing you fat and thin shots. I can post slow motion swings of Rory Mcilroy and Sergio Garcia with similar shaft positions to you on the downswing. If anything I'd say (like some of the others that posted) that posture changes are what is causing you problems. They aren't drastic, but over all it looks like your legs have some overactive movement during the backswing (which causes the posture to change), that your back foot gets off the ground sooner than necessary on the downswing and your legs and hips underneath you and towards the target line, and causes your belt line to go from the diagonal at setup to very horizontal at impact. 

I got the idea from my coach. I think it might be best to get a second opinion from another coach.

[Kenny B]

5 hours ago, Ultimate Junior Golfer said:

I got the idea from my coach. I think it might be best to get a second opinion from another coach.

I agree.  Like all the other comments, I don't see a swing that is too shallow.  Looks good.  I actually think you are more vertical than Sergio or Rickie.  It's difficult to tell from DTL video how much pressure you have on your left side, but you should have most weight transferred by time index 0:15 and should be rotating as fast as you can the rest of the way.  If you haven't completely the pressure shift, then you will see fat/thin shots because of the inconsistent bottom of the swing depending on how much pressure has shifted.  

[TR1PTIK]

I found a couple of Instagram posts that should at least give you a good visual of what needs to happen during your downswing. I wouldn't go so far to suggest that the causation of your issues is the same, but it may be of some help to get you rotating through the ball better - using your body, then releasing the hands. I still HIGHLY recommend working with a golf instructor who can properly identify the cause of your issues and help you correct it. From your latest response to the thread, it sounds like your current coach could be one of those one-swing-fits-all types which is why he's suggesting that you are too shallow.

Here's 1: 

Here's 2: 

Again, I wouldn't say that these are necessarily the perfect remedy to your issue, but they should at the very least get you thinking a bit more about how you rotate and use the body to turn through the ball followed by a proper release.

Another good follow on Instagram is James Jordan @jamesjordangolf. He has several videos illustrating how to turn through and release. If there's anything I don't particularly like about what he teaches, it's that he encourages a straight trail leg at the top of the back swing whereas I think that's something which is golfer dependent - I use a bent trail leg to restrict rotation on the backswing (I can turn too far) which allows me to maintain better control of the club head.

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

The shallowness isn’t the cause. You stop rotating the chest/shoulders just before impact. Hands have to take over and depending on where your low point is you will either bottom out early and hit the fat shot or as you stand up a little will thin it.

I would find another instructor and get their opinion 

[edteergolf]

Very simple issue and it's not your hips or your rotation stopping!!!!!  Please don't try to rotate more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  If, your do these things it is because of something else.  Those reasons are pressures shift is late and your arms are too far behind your body.  If you rotated you'd miss and as a 3.5 you have made a good choice not to miss the ball.  

[Fullsendglf]

Its hard to tell from this angle but it seems that you maybe be releasing your hands early. But that is not a bad thing and leads to higher ball flights and some inconstancy. I would recommend trying to hold the lag in your down swing more. By doing so it will decrease your AOA. Tour players like Hideki have the same issues. They generate speed by releasing their wrists right before impact so then their club head is moving the fastest at the point of contact. But what they gain in speed can lead too thin to fat shots.

 

If you want you can try recording your swing from the front on view.

[Ultimate Junior Golfer]

Thank you to everyone who has tried to help me with this. I finally was able to get a lesson with my coach yesterday and my problem is the my hand path is under plane and my wrists are unloading too horizontally instead of vertically. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 minute ago, Ultimate Junior Golfer said:

Thank you to everyone who has tried to help me with this. I finally was able to get a lesson with my coach yesterday and my problem is the my hand path is under plane and my wrists are unloading too horizontally instead of vertically. 

Under plane on the takeaway or downswing?

can you elaborate on the horizontal vs vertical  unloading?

what drills did he give you for the two “issues”

[Ultimate Junior Golfer]

4 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Under plane on the takeaway or downswing?

can you elaborate on the horizontal vs vertical  unloading?

what drills did he give you for the two “issues”

Hands are under plane on the downswing, which means the only way to get to the ball is to release my wrists out and not down. Hold the club out in front of you and just moving your wrists make the club go up and then down. That is vertical hinge. Now make the club go left to right. That is horizontal hinge. I am doing too much horizontal and not enough vertical which results in pulls and shanks. As far as drills, I will not put them here because they are very specific to me and my swing history. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

11 minutes ago, Ultimate Junior Golfer said:

Hands are under plane on the downswing, which means the only way to get to the ball is to release my wrists out and not down. Hold the club out in front of you and just moving your wrists make the club go up and then down. That is vertical hinge. Now make the club go left to right. That is horizontal hinge. I am doing too much horizontal and not enough vertical which results in pulls and shanks. As far as drills, I will not put them here because they are very specific to me and my swing history. 

Not asking you to post the drills as you say they are geared to you and what your pro is trying to get you to do. Was only checking because telling you something and having you try to fix it without a drill or drills isn’t good.

With that said and not saying your pro is wrong but being under plane is something the greatest golfers and ball strikers all are under the plane on the downswings and have their hands go out as do their arms.  Here’s some examples talking about it as well as some of the pitfalls of being on plane
 

https://www.bradleyhughesgolf.com/index.php/videos/youtube/190-how-the-downward-strike-occurs-4-30-path-why-it-works

https://www.bradleyhughesgolf.com/index.php/instructions/swing-myths

[Ultimate Junior Golfer]

3 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Not asking you to post the drills as you say they are geared to you and what your pro is trying to get you to do. Was only checking because telling you something and having you try to fix it without a drill or drills isn’t good.

With that said and not saying your pro is wrong but being under plane is something the greatest golfers and ball strikers all are under the plane on the downswings and have their hands go out as do their arms.  Here’s some examples talking about it as well as some of the pitfalls of being on plane
 

https://www.bradleyhughesgolf.com/index.php/videos/youtube/190-how-the-downward-strike-occurs-4-30-path-why-it-works

https://www.bradleyhughesgolf.com/index.php/instructions/swing-myths

I'm sorry, I don't think I explained it well. My club is supposed to be under plane. It is my hand path that should not be. I am trying to get my hands and arms to work more out and rotate with my body rather than using my hands and wrists to get the club to go around the body in the follow through.

[RickyBobby_PR]

34 minutes ago, Ultimate Junior Golfer said:

I'm sorry, I don't think I explained it well. My club is supposed to be under plane. It is my hand path that should not be. I am trying to get my hands and arms to work more out and rotate with my body rather than using my hands and wrists to get the club to go around the body in the follow through.

The out is what Bradley is talking about and he talks about rotation the forearms ala Ben Hogan and wish of having 3 right hands. In the one video he talks about how rotating the body will stall the body.  Here’s a few more good videos.

 

https://www.bradleyhughesgolf.com/index.php/videos/youtube/211-hand-path-out-is-down

 

[edteergolf]

50 minutes ago, Ultimate Junior Golfer said:

I'm sorry, I don't think I explained it well. My club is supposed to be under plane. It is my hand path that should not be. I am trying to get my hands and arms to work more out and rotate with my body rather than using my hands and wrists to get the club to go around the body in the follow through.

I agree.  Your club is fine.  The reason it drops slightly too under and you see your hands have to release the head to get to the ball is because your hands are too far back. I'm guess from face on you see a bit of a 'flip' to get to the ball versus your hand/grip being somewhere on your lead/left thigh at impact.  Your sequence is the problem.   Train your arms to go earlier or your body to go later.  This is a simple problem that many players face, especially with the rotation craze that we are experiencing.