Recommended aids / devices for the following flaws

[Scientific Golfer 18]

My swing flaws include taking the club back where it's very laid off behind my body by the halfway back point, then I get extremely across the line and sometimes past parallel at the top. At impact my upper body has a large amount of side bend giving a very cramped look with an unpleasant amount of right elbow bend.

I recently picked up a Tour Striker ball like inflatable ball attached to a lanyard that is supposed to encourage arms / elbows to maintain their distance apart during the swing in the hope that the maintaining of elbow width during the swing would/will eliminate the across the line / past parallel issue.

I'm looking for other aids that might help train out my flaws during the boring Stay at Home government orders.

I've been contemplating the TPro device thinking it might reduce potential arm torso separation in the backswing, and possibly encourage right arm extension into impact (pushing the band away from the body.
https://gravityfit.com/golf

Anyone ever use the device, and would you advocate it?
 

Any other devices you guys would recommend to work to eliminate the flaws previously mentioned?

I'm a fan of aids that put you in correct positions, and give you a feel for what the correct positions or movements feel like (ex: Butch Harmon right grip golf gloves). I extremely dislike things that tell you to swing around/ between objects but don't put you in those positions, nor have any scientific support for why you should be making those movements/positions.
 

[waternickel 1]

A wall will help with the first half of your takeaway. Practice chipping with your rear up against the wall, start with what would be a 5-yard bump and run and work your way up to where the shaft is parallel with the ground.

Do you practice on turf or on a mat? If on turf, an alignment stick stuck into the ground at a (steepish*) angle can be used to give feedback if you have laid off too far. If playing on a mat you might have to get a bit creative; my coach and I have designed a contraption using PVC pipes and a pool noodle that’s adjustable and extendable. 

*Steepish because you may have to overexaggerate with a steeper swing plane in order to make quicker progress. Practice slow, take 100 swings a day (if possible) for 2-3 days. 2-3 days should be enough to engrain change without (hopefully) becoming too steep.

 

**Well, after reading your post a second time I see that you'd probably dislike these. Sorry.

Edited March 28, 2020 by waternickel

[DaveP043 4,995]

Is a competent instructor considered an "aid"?  In these days of distancing, there are online options where an instructor would analyse video of your swing and provide suggested drills or training devices.  The things you are seeing as faults could very well be symptoms, could be caused by an actual fault that you're not considering.  

[jlukes 15,633]

Taking the club back too much inside? 

Sounds like the Tour Striker Planemate is made of for you. 

This was one of my bad habits and the planemate has helped immensely. Especially pitching and chipping 

[Scientific Golfer 18]

9 hours ago, waternickel said:

A wall will help with the first half of your takeaway. Practice chipping with your rear up against the wall, start with what would be a 5-yard bump and run and work your way up to where the shaft is parallel with the ground.

Do you practice on turf or on a mat? If on turf, an alignment stick stuck into the ground at a (steepish*) angle can be used to give feedback if you have laid off too far. If playing on a mat you might have to get a bit creative; my coach and I have designed a contraption using PVC pipes and a pool noodle that’s adjustable and extendable. 

*Steepish because you may have to overexaggerate with a steeper swing plane in order to make quicker progress. Practice slow, take 100 swings a day (if possible) for 2-3 days. 2-3 days should be enough to engrain change without (hopefully) becoming too steep.

 

**Well, after reading your post a second time I see that you'd probably dislike these. Sorry.

Thanks for the suggestions. The wall think doesn't particularly help since it's not going to show my how to avoid the wall, and damage us likely to occur to the club when it would not the wall. Plus the club has to go back to some degree. To avoid the wall completely one would likely need a purely lifting manipulation and no turn. Even if I did do that I feel like I'd be trying to replace one fault with another.
I'm a member at a country club , so I have access to a grass driving range (except right now with it closed and the government order to stay at home). I have a PVC pipe circle training aid on order (hopefully I'll get it in about a week) in the hopes that it will help me feel what the correct position/movement feels like, and possible groove it through repetition.
Thanks for your input.

[Scientific Golfer 18]

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Is a competent instructor considered an "aid"?  In these days of distancing, there are online options where an instructor would analyse video of your swing and provide suggested drills or training devices.  The things you are seeing as faults could very well be symptoms, could be caused by an actual fault that you're not considering.  

I've been to lots of instructors, and unfortunately none have given my information or been able to resolve/improve my issues during the lessons. With the current stay at home order in person golf instruction is out of the equation, and online would be problematic in that it becomes a case of who would I choose, and what guarantee is there of said person being able to give me information that will work. Also at this time I don't have a hitting net to hit into in my backyard (ordered one recently, but probably won't get it for a week) . As proven on video, with a swingbyte device, and Zepp device my practice swings and actual swings hitting a ball are very different swings. (Which is of course very annoying). After getting a net, and setting it up I'll re-evaluate the online lesson option if I haven't found another solution.

1 hour ago, jlukes said:

Taking the club back too much inside? 

Sounds like the Tour Striker Planemate is made of for you. 

This was one of my bad habits and the planemate has helped immensely. Especially pitching and chipping 

Thanks for the advice, but looking up what the Tour Striker Planemate is (an exercise tube connecting a belt to a low part of the shaft) it doesn't look like it would teach me how to make a proper backswing, and if anything looks like the resistance tube will encourage pulling the club lower and deeper behind the body. None the less thanks for making a recommendation.

[jlukes 15,633]

26 minutes ago, Scientific Golfer said:

I've been to lots of instructors, and unfortunately none have given my information or been able to resolve/improve my issues during the lessons. With the current stay at home order in person golf instruction is out of the equation, and online would be problematic in that it becomes a case of who would I choose, and what guarantee is there of said person being able to give me information that will work. Also at this time I don't have a hitting net to hit into in my backyard (ordered one recently, but probably won't get it for a week) . As proven on video, with a swingbyte device, and Zepp device my practice swings and actual swings hitting a ball are very different swings. (Which is of course very annoying). After getting a net, and setting it up I'll re-evaluate the online lesson option if I haven't found another solution.

Thanks for the advice, but looking up what the Tour Striker Planemate is (an exercise tube connecting a belt to a low part of the shaft) it doesn't look like it would teach me how to make a proper backswing, and if anything looks like the resistance tube will encourage pulling the club lower and deeper behind the body. None the less thanks for making a recommendation.

There are a set of protocols that are online that are mini lessons you do with the device. 

I suggest you watch the free protocols on their website to show you that it isn't what you are describing. In fact, it's the exact opposite. 

[waternickel 1]

3 hours ago, Scientific Golfer said:

Thanks for the suggestions. The wall think doesn't particularly help since it's not going to show my how to avoid the wall, and damage us likely to occur to the club when it would not the wall. Plus the club has to go back to some degree. To avoid the wall completely one would likely need a purely lifting manipulation and no turn. Even if I did do that I feel like I'd be trying to replace one fault with another.
I'm a member at a country club , so I have access to a grass driving range (except right now with it closed and the government order to stay at home). I have a PVC pipe circle training aid on order (hopefully I'll get it in about a week) in the hopes that it will help me feel what the correct position/movement feels like, and possible groove it through repetition.
Thanks for your input.

Slow backswings, just to get the feeling; I'm a rote learner due to years of being a classical musician and repetition works well for me. If you have instagram, Luke Donald has a good video on this. 

Check out LD's video here

[PlaidJacket 7,734]

I'm ok with training aids. Some have worked/helped me and some not. I like things that are simple. Really simple. Sometimes a training aid is right at hand. Like a towel, a golf tee, a golf club laid on the ground, powder spray, etc. etc. I don't like "contraptions". This thing you've showed me - GravityFit I consider a contraption. Might work for you though. I'd never use it.

[joen 798]

5 hours ago, jlukes said:

There are a set of protocols that are online that are mini lessons you do with the device. 

I suggest you watch the free protocols on their website to show you that it isn't what you are describing. In fact, it's the exact opposite. 

I could not agree more with @jlukes 

I struggled for years with trying to get rid of my inside takeaway. Planemate has solved that problem. 

[waternickel 1]

On 3/28/2020 at 10:20 AM, Scientific Golfer said:

Thanks for the suggestions. The wall think doesn't particularly help since it's not going to show my how to avoid the wall, and damage us likely to occur to the club when it would not the wall. Plus the club has to go back to some degree. To avoid the wall completely one would likely need a purely lifting manipulation and no turn. Even if I did do that I feel like I'd be trying to replace one fault with another.
I'm a member at a country club , so I have access to a grass driving range (except right now with it closed and the government order to stay at home). I have a PVC pipe circle training aid on order (hopefully I'll get it in about a week) in the hopes that it will help me feel what the correct position/movement feels like, and possible groove it through repetition.
Thanks for your input.

There's also I training aid I read up on over the weekend called the chiliwacker. Funny name, sound concept IMHO.

[Scientific Golfer 18]

On 3/30/2020 at 1:27 PM, waternickel said:

There's also I training aid I read up on over the weekend called the chiliwacker. Funny name, sound concept IMHO.

Thanks for the recommendation. If I'm looking at the correct thing the Chilliwacker appears to be a device where you swing, and if you are way off plane you wack the device. It doesn't look like it does anything to teach you how to get in the correct position, nor give you a feel for the correct position or movement. I'm looking for something that is more likely to train the right movement instead of creating negative reinforcement when a bad move is made, but I'll keep it under consideration.
 

[cnosil 21,038]

https://robogolfpro.com/

[Scientific Golfer 18]

On 4/4/2020 at 8:36 AM, cnosil said:

https://robogolfpro.com/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.golfdigest.com/story/this-is-a-robot-it-can-also-te/amp

At $150,000 it's out of my price range, and something else I'd be curious to know about it is how it knows how to swing like particular pros. It would be one thing if said pros swung while using the device, and the device records them. Can pretty much guarantee that the device wasn't around when Ben Hogan (one of its apparent swings) was, and even if he had been he didn't seem like the type of person that would have wanted it recording him. If it's taking positions from videos the camera angles/positions of the swings can have a huge effect (be flawed) on said angles, positions, and movements. 

 

Has anyone on here ever had the benefit of trying one? 

[edteergolf 312]

On 3/28/2020 at 11:41 AM, Scientific Golfer said:

I've been to lots of instructors, and unfortunately none have given my information or been able to resolve/improve my issues during the lessons. With the current stay at home order in person golf instruction is out of the equation, and online would be problematic in that it becomes a case of who would I choose, and what guarantee is there of said person being able to give me information that will work. Also at this time I don't have a hitting net to hit into in my backyard (ordered one recently, but probably won't get it for a week) . As proven on video, with a swingbyte device, and Zepp device my practice swings and actual swings hitting a ball are very different swings. (Which is of course very annoying). After getting a net, and setting it up I'll re-evaluate the online lesson option if I haven't found another solution.

Thanks for the advice, but looking up what the Tour Striker Planemate is (an exercise tube connecting a belt to a low part of the shaft) it doesn't look like it would teach me how to make a proper backswing, and if anything looks like the resistance tube will encourage pulling the club lower and deeper behind the body. None the less thanks for making a recommendation.

Just out of curiosity, what are you issues and how have competent coaches not been able to solve the issues? I'm not tying to bait here, I just want to understand.  

[Scientific Golfer 18]

23 hours ago, edteergolf said:

Just out of curiosity, what are you issues and how have competent coaches not been able to solve the issues? I'm not tying to bait here, I just want to understand.  

I mentioned the issues in the beginning of the original post, but to reiterate: In the early part of backswing the club gets flat, laid off (whatever you choose to call it). At the top of the swing the the club is deep behind me and crosses the line (and often goes past parallel). On the way down the body (torso and hips) are way ahead of the arms and club, and the arms are dragged by the slow moving body. At impact the spine is very right side tilted, the right/back arm is very bent and cramped into the body with the body turned more open then it should be at impact. All these flaws lead to swing variation, lack of speed, and far too much effort for very little power. Far from the efficient swings seen by the likes of Adam Scott, Justin Rose, Ernie Els, Nick Faldo, or Rory Mcilroy to name a few.

None of the teaching pros i've worked with after developing these flaws have been able to provide me with instruction that has lead to any significant change when it come striking the golf ball. I can video my swing before and after the lessons and there is no apparent change. While some instructors may have sound concepts others go off on tangents teaching concepts that don't adhere to the logic of physics and biomechanics. Just because someone may have PGA or other credentials doesn't mean they are good teachers.

Concepts I have tried include, but are not limited to : Swinging with the clubhead staying outside the hands (at least until hip high back). Swinging the grip close to the back leg during the takeaway. Keeping the clubface facing the ground longer. Pointing the thumbs up at the sky at lead arm parallel back. Keeping the left elbow pointing to the body or the ground (in an attempt to keep the upper arm from rotating). Tilting the shoulders on a steeper plane during the swing (to try to keep the arms in a position more in front of the torso). External rotation if the back arm (in an attempt to keep the rear arms on front of the chest so that it can't separate as much at the top and so the arm doesn't have to work to get back in front of the toros on the way down, but opens the clubface and rolls the arms. Pulling the right elbow into the side on the downswing (which creates the flaws of having the arms and club open, the hands get high and move away from the body, the club gets steep and too upright creating another poor impact position. 

I could go on with dozen of other thoughts, positions, and movements i've tried, but that would make the post much longer. I've come to the decision at this point that my best bet would be to find things that will put my in sound positions every single time, and grove that position/movement through repetition. Thus that is why i've asked for suggestions on training aids that will force me into good positions and motions.

Edited April 9, 2020 by Scientific Golfer

[edteergolf 312]

3 hours ago, Scientific Golfer said:

I mentioned the issues in the beginning of the original post, but to reiterate: In the early part of backswing the club gets flat, laid off (whatever you choose to call it). At the top of the swing the the club is deep behind me and crosses the line (and often goes past parallel). On the way down the body (torso and hips) are way ahead of the arms and club, and the arms are dragged by the slow moving body. At impact the spine is very right side tilted, the right/back arm is very bent and cramped into the body with the body turned more open then it should be at impact. All these flaws lead to swing variation, lack of speed, and far too much effort for very little power. Far from the efficient swings seen by the likes of Adam Scott, Justin Rose, Ernie Els, Nick Faldo, or Rory Mcilroy to name a few.

None of the teaching pros i've worked with after developing these flaws have been able to provide me with instruction that has lead to any significant change when it come striking the golf ball. I can video my swing before and after the lessons and there is no apparent change. While some instructors may have sound concepts others go off on tangents teaching concepts that don't adhere to the logic of physics and biomechanics. Just because someone may have PGA or other credentials doesn't mean they are good teachers.

Concepts I have tried include, but are not limited to : swinging with the clubhead staying outside the hands (at least until hip high back). swinging the grip close to the back leg during the takeaway. keeping the clubface facing the ground longer. keeping the left elbow pointing to the body or the ground (in an attempt to keep the upper arm from rotating). tilting the shoulders on a steeper plane during the swing (to try to keep the arms in a position more in front of the torso). external rotation if the back arm (in an attempt to keep the rear arms on front of the chest so that it can't separate as much at the top and so the arm doesn't have to work to get back in front of the toros on the way down, but opens the clubface and rolls the arms. Pulling the right elbow into the side on the downswing (which creates the flaws of having the arms and club open, the hands get high and move away from the body, the club gets steep and too upright creating another poor impact position. 

I could go on with dozen of other thoughts, positions, and movements i've tried, but that would make the post much longer. I've come to the decision at this point that my best bet would be to find things that will put my in sound positions every single time, and grove that position/movement through repetition. Thus that is why i've asked for suggestions on training aids that will force me into good positions and motions.

I understand your issues and they are very common and definitely root causes for losing control of your golf ball.  I agree completely with your thoughts about the PGA/other credentials not making a good instructor.  I'm still surprised nobody to solve your back swing issues.  The concepts just aren't that hard.  To make the change on the other hand could take 30-90 days.  A good instructor should be able to get you to do it the first session, possibly within minutes, but of course that doesn't mean it will be a lasting change.  

As for aids, I don't personally believe there is anything designed to help you.  The back swing issue can be caused by arm over-travel, forearm/wrist roll, poor or late body pivot, poor or mismatched pressure and mass movement, the incline and side-bends of your torso, and or simply having a poor concept of what is to be done in the back swing.  I'll say this, if you don't properly time the torso rotation, pressure shift, and manage arm travel it will never be solved.  

[YoughYak 12]

Take my advice with a grain of salt since I do not have lot's of experience on the course or years of taking lessons. It does sound like you already have the device that's been most helpful for me. The Zepp Sensor has be an awesome tool for me in evaluating my swing. Their little training and practice swings inside the app, coupled with the sensor's feedback on my swing has been a huge help.

My biggest issue has always been tempo, but I never realized how bad it was until I started using the sensor. Since Covid closed the range, I find I can hit foam balls in a field and still get my real swing mechanics to work on. After adjusting my tempo, everything else has been a little less consistent. As I practice with the foam balls I've been dialing in the consistency which will hopefully improve my game. 

My advice would be to make sure you are taking advantage of everything that little sensor and it's app has to offer. Since the app can't address things like your grip, I also read tidbits in Harvey Penick's Little Red Book before heading out to hit foam balls. I found that since adding the book, I have fewer mishits on balls where the sensor said was a great swing. I believe my grip was the main culprit but I'm still working on things.

Not sure if any of that helped, but good luck!

[Sluggo42 6,815]

On 4/4/2020 at 8:36 AM, cnosil said:

https://robogolfpro.com/

I want this...

[ObsessiveIndecisive 42]

Two best drills I have used for this are:

1. place a ball behind your club head at setup. Work on pushing the bell straight back, not at and angle back towards you
2. Place an alignment stick behind the ball perpendicular to the target. As you start your backswing, think about starting the club head on that line. At the top of your swing, pause and see if the butt of your club is pointing at that alignment stick. You Can also help to hold a second alignment stick on your hands against the grip so it extends up your forearms. Will make it easier to visual where the butt of the club is pointed. If the butt is pointed further away from you than the alignment stick, you’re going to be too in a o out. If it is pointed closer to you than the alignment stick, your going to be too out to in.