OPERATION CALLAWAY: Questions Answered

[GolfSpy Dave]

OPERATION CALLAWAY: THE FITTING Q&A

An Official MyGolfSpy.com Review

 

 

So when I went to Callaway for my club fitting, I took with me a handful of questions from the MGS readers. Of the questions submitted, I randomly chose a manageable ten questions to pass along for answers. I am sorry if I didn't get your specific question answered, but you can blame lady luck for that...

Thanks to Callaway Golf for taking the time to answer these questions.

 

So without further delay, I bring you the Callaway Q&A.

 

1. Product question -- the outlets are selling a set of X20's for about $400.00 -- what is the difference between these and the originals and are they just as playable -- to me they look like an entry level club -- no bore thru hosel and True Temper multi lite shafts –

I believe the question may be referring to the Callaway X-20R Irons model and asking how they compare with the original X-20s. The X-20R are a great value. Their design was based closely on the original X-20 and feature many of the same core technologies that have fueled the success of Callaway's X-Series Irons over the years (Notch Weighting, Undercut Channel, VFT Face). In order to lower the price on this set, Callaway engineers did make some modifications, including a hosel that does not feature the bore thru S2H2 technology and different shafts than what was featured in the originals. That being said, we are confident that the X-20R Irons offer better feel, distance and accuracy than any iron in that price point.

 

2. What would be the best way to prepare for a fitting session? Should you be hitting as much as possible before a fitting or would they recommend something else?

We would suggest a few range sessions leading up to the fitting in order to familiarize yourself with your swing. Being prepared will help the golfer get the most out of their time with us. If you haven't played in a while, you may want to limit these to 30-40 balls each so that you don't arrive with blisters or any soreness.

 

3. Are there things that most golfers don't usually bother to take notice or look for that can actually help a fitter during a fitting?

It's always good to come into a fitting with a goal in mind. Which areas of your game are most important in your mind to work on in order to improve and better enjoy your time on the course? Distance? Shot shaping? Accuracy? Looks? Have an idea of what you would like to accomplish and the fitting experience will be more beneficial.

 

4. What are their thoughts on equipment used in the fitting? Other than Trackman, what other options are comparable?

Callaway's Research and Development team designed the CPAS equipment (Callaway Performance and Analysis System) that is featured on all of our Performance Centers and is the most accurate unit we've seen to date. The CPAS equipment was originally designed in order to properly fit Callaway's Pro Tour staff. Specifics on the system can be found here: http://www.callawaygolf.com/Global/en-US/CustomFitting/PerformanceCenters/CPAS.html

 

5. I find hitting indoor to a net, does not give enough feedback. In the range I could adjust my swing to get it to a state where I'm happier (sometimes). If the fitting is done indoors, how do you get to your "ideal" swing before the actual fitting starts? Is it just better to go to a fitting that can be done outdoors?

Outdoor fittings offer a more natural setting, but are obviously subject to the weather conditions and can be misleading as a result. When a player is outside, there is a tendency to make swing adjustments depending on how the ball is flying that day. An indoor fitting studio does not offer feedback in terms of watching your ball flight, so your swing is more natural and honest as a result. Our fitting specialists and the CPAS system get to see the real you and can recommend clubs based on how you deliver the club to the ball.

 

6. What set of questions should a fitter ask in every fitting?

What are your goals? Do you have any ailments that we need to know about, such as back pain, tendonitis, tennis elbow? What is your athletic background? What clubs do you like to hit? What's your typical ball flight?

 

7. What shafts would they try 1st in their Driver fittings to increase launch angle and lessen spin?

Launch angle and spin are determined more by the clubhead than the shaft, so that would be our first priority. Once the appropriate clubhead has been determined, we then can take the player through a number of shaft options. As for specific aims such as increasing launch angle and decreasing spin, it's highly dependant on the player's swing style and speed, so it's tough to deliver a generic rule of thumb.

 

8. What determines the type of clubs you choose after the fitting? Is it the number of years you have been playing? Your age? Your handicap (if you have one). If you are fitted for lie angle, length of clubs, grips size, etc...Is it your choice to pick Blades or cavity back? Steele or graphite, forged or regular. If you are fitted, what determines the type of club to use?

If you go though the fitting process you should be able to hit anything you want if you practice enough. Right?

There are several factors that determine what clubs a golfer gets fit for. And while age, playing experience and handicap can have an influence on what clubs a golfer needs, ultimately, the key to a successful club fitting is matching the design features of the club to the player's needs and style of play. For example, if you're someone who tends to flight the ball low or has a wide hit distribution across the club face, you would benefit from the technology of perimeter weighted irons since they're designed to get the ball in the air and also mitigate the negative affects of miss-hits. Conversely, if you're a player that makes solid contact consistently and already hits the ball an acceptable trajectory, the workability of blade style irons may be better suited to you. The use of high tech launch monitors (like the ones used in all Callaway Performance Centers) to glean critical swing and ball flight data, along with the player's own assessment of their needs/preferences will identify which club models best suit the golfer.

 

Once your swing and impact characteristics have been analyzed and a club model chosen, it's on to identifying the proper club specifications. A comprehensive club fitting will identify the best shaft variables for you—type (graphite or steel), weight, length, and flex as well as the proper lie angle and your grip preference. Here again, the use of a launch monitor will help in identifying the attributes that maximize your performance.

 

By the end of your fitting session, you should clearly understand the benefits and drawbacks of each of the different club models and various club specifications as they relate specifically to your game. You should undoubtedly know what driver, fairway woods, hybrids, irons and wedges you perform best with. As for what you decide to purchase, that's up to you. After all, it's your money.

 

9. Here's a question I have about clubfitting, it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg query: How much can clubfitting help a golfer who is such a beginner that they do not have a consistent, repeatable swing? In this case, isn't the player better off honing in their swing until it is consistently repeatable, using cheap clubs, and then upgrading to custom-fit clubs later? I'd be interested in Callaway's response to this. I could imagine a situation where a beginning golfer with a flawed swing got custom-fit, then played for a few months and developed their swing and found their custom-fit clubs no longer fit their swing.

Good question, as one of the most common statements we hear is “I'm not good enough to get custom fit for clubs.” Now, we wouldn't recommend a beginner picking up a club for the first time and taking their initial swings inside one of our hitting bays, but beginners who have been to the practice range and out onto the course even a few times can benefit a great deal from a custom fitting.

First off, a beginner's swing is more consistent than many people think. They may not be able to square the clubface at impact as consistently as a more advanced golfer, but that is an area where a custom fitting can help a beginner. Secondly, trying to hone a swing with equipment that is fundamentally wrong for you can compound problems, create bad habits and create an almost unbearable learning process. Swinging clubs that are too short, long, heavy, light or unforgiving can have a very negative effect on what happens to the ball upon impact. Our recommendation is to gain an initial familiarity with your golf swing and then get into equipment that is right for you to learn and grow with.

It is true that a golfer's swing and body may change over time and that a subsequent fitting may yield anther round of benefits. Callaway's CPAS system was originally designed to assist our staff professionals with their equipment choices and they undergo custom fittings at out test center every year as they work into Callaway's latest offerings. If Phil Mickelson and Ernie Els don't feel that “they're not good enough to get custom fit for clubs,” neither should you.

 

10. I'd kind of like to know why they abandoned the square design. I wasn't a fan but I know that a lot of people were.

Square designs raise the club's Moment of Inertia by placing weight on the extreme outer edges and resist twisting at impact on off-center strikes. While these designs remain an effective way to accomplish this and have not been abandoned altogether, we have found that the square shape is polarizing to some golfers. As a result, we have developed other ways to achieve high Moment of Inertia designs within more traditional shapes. One of these is the use of Forged Composite, the lightest, strongest and most precise material we've ever employed. Forged Composite allows our engineers to strategically locate every last gram inside the clubhead in order to achieve optimal mass properties and performance characteristics within more traditional shapes.

 

[GolfSpy Tim]

stoked to read the answers to all of the questions, especially about if it's a waste or worth it getting fit at a more "basic/beginner" playing level.

[Matt Saternus]

Thanks for posting this, Dave. Lots of good info here, and no BS answers, IMO. I was very interested to hear them say that the head is more important than the shaft in driver fitting; this seems to fly in the face of some of the "common wisdom" I hear frequently. Also, an interesting point about your swing being more natural indoors because you're not trying to fix ball flight.

[MmmmmmBuddy]

Also, an interesting point about your swing being more natural indoors because you're not trying to fix ball flight.

I will give you my take on this. We play golf outdoors. When we play, we make adjustments to how the ball is flying that day, so fitting indoors is very unnatural ...

 

My .02

[Justin66]

Thanks for posting this, Dave. Lots of good info here, and no BS answers, IMO. I was very interested to hear them say that the head is more important than the shaft in driver fitting; this seems to fly in the face of some of the "common wisdom" I hear frequently. Also, an interesting point about your swing being more natural indoors because you're not trying to fix ball flight.

 

 

God, I get treated like a leper when I say stuff like that- especially on that "other" forum. I guess since no one listens to me, they'll listen to Callaway. Oh well, as long as the message gets out.

 

As for question 4, of course Callaway's going to say their fitting software is the best, just like TMaG will tell you their MATT technology is "best". Who cares, really, especailly when fitters have had multiple successes with Flightscope and the Vector models?

 

I wish we could've gotten an answer for the "forged composite" stuff... other than the marketing 399 answer. So they weren't successful in moving weight around in the FT models? I still don't buy it.

[Justin66]

Where are all the shaft snobs now? Still feel good about yourselves spending all that money on a piece of equipment that, according to Golf Digest, costs about $15 to make? Anyone that's ever been taught how to really fit golf clubs to people (from the likes of Wishon, Sheets, Maltby, Summitt, etc.) know that the head is more important, anyway. I thought that was common knowledge until I started poking around that "other" site... and realized just how misguided people are.

 

Sure, spending $400 on a graphite tube may boost confidence (and to an minor extent, performance) for a little while- similar to spending an obscene amount on a putter- but that honeymoon effect (or placebo effect, as Frank Thomas calls it) will always vanish eventually. It usually coincides with either the first truly poor shot, or when your favorite Tour golfer starts gaming something different ("Ooh! That new Phi-Theta-Kappa shaft... you know, the one with the purple logo and 'REV weave technology'... is coming out. Pro Golfer P is using it, and it's $576.23, so it HAS to be the 'best'"). It's going to happen whether your putter/driver shaft/golf set/whetever cost you $4 or $40,000. The clubs don't have anywhere NEAR the effect the golfer does.

 

Besides, it's in the Rules that the equipment can't take the place of skill. Anything that claims to do so- and could be backed up by independent studies, not marketing BS- would then be ruled nonconforming. Like "forged composite"- if the clubhead's maxed out in every definable way, does anyone really think a few milimeters change in center of gravity location is going to turn us into Phil Mickelson or Ernie Els? Please...

[Kanoito]

Damn, I didn't know there were $400 shafts... good thing I am not willing to spend that money either

A $30 ought to do it for me!

[Justin66]

Damn, I didn't know there were $400 shafts... good thing I am not willing to spend that money either

A $30 ought to do it for me!

 

 

There's some that go for $1800. Here's one:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/NANO-POWER-Golf-Dragon-Japan-Graphite-Iron-shaft-Royal-/170637384171?pt=Golf_Clubmaking_Products_US&hash=item27bac7d9eb

[Kanoito]

There's some that go for $1800. Here's one:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/NANO-POWER-Golf-Dragon-Japan-Graphite-Iron-shaft-Royal-/170637384171?pt=Golf_Clubmaking_Products_US&hash=item27bac7d9eb

 

Oh those Japanese shafts... I have one of those in my driver (the owner broke my driver, so he used his expensive shaft to repair mine) and it's a brand I've never heard of, but after asking some friends in Japan, they said that shaft used to sell for around US$ 300. Definitely a waste being played by me!

[RookieBlue7]

Justin, I posted this at WRX and I'll post it here. You're taking the answer and twisting it to fit your agenda. I didn't comment because, really, I didn't want to. Where did the Callaway rep ever say the shaft is inconsequential? He said the clubhead is the first priority and nothing more. That's true, the head is the first priority. You find the right loft, bias, weight, etc. Then you fine tune with the shaft, which is what he was alluding to. You're taking what he said, using one sentence, and making it work for your agenda.

 

If you'll look at Dave's fitting, you'll see that the Callaway rep fitted him into a Razr Hawk Draw with a Diamana Blueboard, which isn't a stock shaft.

 

If stock shafts are so great for everyone and Callaway was saying that (they weren't you took that sentence and made it work for your agenda), why did the Callaway fitter put Dave in a non-stock, upcharge exotic shaft?

 

Face it, your agenda and their answer don't line up.

 

Why don't they fit their staffers into stock shafts? Why do they have anything but stock options in their cart? Don't twist their words.

 

Worry about your own game and spending, I'll keep playing Diamana, Matrix, or whatever else I choose and that fits me. Keep playing what you can make work for you and hoping for the best. Have you ever been to a real fitting on a launch monitor? By seeing your thoughts on it, I'm guessing no, just whatever they offer free in a store on a simulator.

 

Also, Golf Digest is talking raw materials only. They're not factoring in R&D, marketing, shipping, making up for the free ones they give away, etc. Matrix loses more money on the TPHD line than any shaft they make. It's also their most expensive. You don't really have a clue about what you're talking about, to be honest. Are you a fitter? Have you ever fit anyone before and analyzed the data to put them into an optimal combination? Again, I'm guessing not. You can make stock shafts work for you, and I'm proud for you. But, for me, I've yet to find a stock shaft that fits and gives me optimal numbers. Sure, I can get it playable, but why do I want playable when I can buy optimal? If I told you you could gain 15 yards and tighten your dispersion by 10 yards, would you buy the club? Or would you give up distance and accuracy for the sake of a few bucks? Heck, if you feel that way about technology, when was the last time you bought new clubs? What's the reason to change from persimmon and hickory shafts? They're all the same remember? Worry about your finances and I'll worry about mine.

 

You make yourself sound jealous and bitter. That's all. You always post this stuff and you twist things to fit your agenda. You're always knocking people who buy upgraded shafts, etc. It'd be easier to make your point if you weren't a bitter, jealous prude about it.

 

 

 

Dave, can you still contact the fitter at Callaway? I'm going to assume you can, as you seem to still be in contact with him. Could you contact him and ask him if he was saying the shaft in a fitting is inconsequential? I'd love to hear his answer instead of Justin putting words in his mouth. I'm betting he'd burst Justin'a bubble on what he wants the answer the fitter gave to say.

 

Nowhere, from any person I've seen Justin say has said it, have I saw anyone that says the shaft is inconsequential, just that it's not the first, primary factor in a fitting. I'd love to see somewhere credible, with a credible source that says that. 1000:1 you won't find it.

[SPY ZINGER]

Really nice feature on the process and Q & A. Well done, and thanks for the time you put into it.

[Justin66]

Justin, I posted this at WRX and I'll post it here. You're taking the answer and twisting it to fit your agenda. I didn't comment because, really, I didn't want to. Where did the Callaway rep ever say the shaft is inconsequential? He said the clubhead is the first priority and nothing more. That's true, the head is the first priority. You find the right loft, bias, weight, etc. Then you fine tune with the shaft, which is what he was alluding to. You're taking what he said, using one sentence, and making it work for your agenda.

 

If you'll look at Dave's fitting, you'll see that the Callaway rep fitted him into a Razr Hawk Draw with a Diamana Blueboard, which isn't a stock shaft.

 

If stock shafts are so great for everyone and Callaway was saying that (they weren't you took that sentence and made it work for your agenda), why did the Callaway fitter put Dave in a non-stock, upcharge exotic shaft?

 

Face it, your agenda and their answer don't line up.

 

Why don't they fit their staffers into stock shafts? Why do they have anything but stock options in their cart? Don't twist their words.

 

Worry about your own game and spending, I'll keep playing Diamana, Matrix, or whatever else I choose and that fits me. Keep playing what you can make work for you and hoping for the best. Have you ever been to a real fitting on a launch monitor? By seeing your thoughts on it, I'm guessing no, just whatever they offer free in a store on a simulator.

 

Also, Golf Digest is talking raw materials only. They're not factoring in R&D, marketing, shipping, making up for the free ones they give away, etc. Matrix loses more money on the TPHD line than any shaft they make. It's also their most expensive. You don't really have a clue about what you're talking about, to be honest. Are you a fitter? Have you ever fit anyone before and analyzed the data to put them into an optimal combination? Again, I'm guessing not. You can make stock shafts work for you, and I'm proud for you. But, for me, I've yet to find a stock shaft that fits and gives me optimal numbers. Sure, I can get it playable, but why do I want playable when I can buy optimal? If I told you you could gain 15 yards and tighten your dispersion by 10 yards, would you buy the club? Or would you give up distance and accuracy for the sake of a few bucks? Heck, if you feel that way about technology, when was the last time you bought new clubs? What's the reason to change from persimmon and hickory shafts? They're all the same remember? Worry about your finances and I'll worry about mine.

 

You make yourself sound jealous and bitter. That's all. You always post this stuff and you twist things to fit your agenda. You're always knocking people who buy upgraded shafts, etc. It'd be easier to make your point if you weren't a bitter, jealous prude about it.

 

 

 

Dave, can you still contact the fitter at Callaway? I'm going to assume you can, as you seem to still be in contact with him. Could you contact him and ask him if he was saying the shaft in a fitting is inconsequential? I'd love to hear his answer instead of Justin putting words in his mouth. I'm betting he'd burst Justin'a bubble on what he wants the answer the fitter gave to say.

 

Nowhere, from any person I've seen Justin say has said it, have I saw anyone that says the shaft is inconsequential, just that it's not the first, primary factor in a fitting. I'd love to see somewhere credible, with a credible source that says that. 1000:1 you won't find it.

 

 

Sounds like you're twisting my words. People get up in arms about their shafts, when the head's the most important part. That's what I've been saying. It doesn't matter if it's a $300 Blueboard, or a $40 ProLaunch Red, or a $17 Blue Crush. It's a tweak and nothing more. But people think they're the be-all-end-all of golf equipment; like it's going to lead them to some golf promised land.

 

Here's the reply I got from Frank Thomas (former USGA Technical Director) about such a subject:

 

Justin,

 

Don't waste your money unless you believe in magic. There is not a shaft available, which will increase your distance significantly unless it improves your launch conditions to optimum from really bad conditions. This is not going to happen. With your head speed of 102 mph your ball speed should be close to 150 mph and your launch angle should be about 12.5 degrees and a spin rate of about 2,500 rpm. If you are close to these conditions, then the only way to get more distance is by asking the Easter Bunny.

 

Frank

 

 

 

 

 

Frank Thomas

 

"Helping Golfers"

 

www.FranklyGolf.com

 

(407) 396 4004

 

 

 

Frankly Golf

 

8390 ChampionsGate Blvd

 

Suite 100

 

ChampionsGate

 

FL 33896

 

I forgot to ask the Easter Bunny this year, so my distances stayed the same, even though I've switched to the new Acer XF driver (with QuikFit) and a rotation of a Matrix Ozik 7.1, Aldila Proto By You, ProForce V2, ProLauch Blue, Talamonti PD-70 and "old faithful" (the True Ace Blue Crush). I'm going to try out a Graphite Design AD-Throttle, ProLaunch Blue w/ Axis, ProLaunch Platinum, ProForce V2 Tour and a True Ace Green Ghost shortly. Need more adaptors.

 

Read any fitting manual- cost isn't the first consideration when selecting a shaft.

 

Now, am I against people buying whatever they please? Never said that. But people put too much importance on things that aren't that important. My goal in all of this is to prove that golf can be all-inclusive, that people can play- and play very well- without Keeping up with the Joneses or feeling like they're in an arms race. You know why my area is treated like the Siberia of golf? People think it's too expensive, too time consuming and filled with snobby pricks. So far, I've been able to disprove two of those three.

[RookieBlue7]

So you're saying I can go from shaft to shaft and see no discernible difference in accuracy or distance? I'm calling BS, again, on that one. You put me is a weak tip x-flex shaft of your choosing with a high flex point with a 10.5 head of your choosing. Let me pick the shaft for the same head, bet you 100 times to 1 that my choice will go significantly further and be more accurate every time for me because I know what I need in a shaft's characteristics. I have to have a high flex point with a stiff tip which will spin less and launch lower, equating to both more carry and roll along with having a much tighter dispersion. I still haven't found a stock x-flex that plays as a true x flex, ever. They always CPM lower than true flex. If manufacturers would go to a CPM standard instead of a letter standard, they might have a chance at getting it half right. The industry belief, rather statistics, show that lots of people need higher launch and spin. They're targeting their largest demographic of folders and not all golfers. Why? Cost, it costs more to offer more options. Sorry, while the head may be the first determining factor, it's not the be all, end all factor. The shaft plays an integral role as well. The head may be the engine of the club, but the shaft is the transmission.

 

You said there's no difference for you, might I ask your handicap? Another question, why do PGA Tour pros play shafts that are not stock options, save Hunter Mahan (he's one of the only ones I know that plays an otr club).

 

Oh and I never said cost was a factor. I still have a Matrix MFS Orange Crush in one club that I kill. That shaft is under $75 all day long. It's numbers, in the same head, are slightly worse than the other shafts I play that are more expensive.

[GolfSpy Dave]

FWIW

Having looked at the numbers first hand, changing from the Octane to the Razr Hawk head made a huge difference in spin numbers.

Once the head was ID'ed, multiple shafts were swapped in and out the get the best numbers/swing match.

In this fitting the head swap made a big difference, but I know the shaft is a good fit.

Would be interested to try it in another head for comparison.

 

RB7, your line of The head may be the engine of the club, but the shaft is the transmission. really sort of sums up the fitting experience for the driver.

[Shambles]

FWIW

Having looked at the numbers first hand, changing from the Octane to the Razr Hawk head made a huge difference in spin numbers.

Once the head was ID'ed, multiple shafts were swapped in and out the get the best numbers/swing match.

In this fitting the head swap made a big difference, but I know the shaft is a good fit.

Would be interested to try it in another head for comparison.

 

RB7, your line of The head may be the engine of the club, but the shaft is the transmission. really sort of sums up the fitting experience for the driver.

 

Personally speaking I put the order of importance in reverse on this issue, but do not give a great deal of importance to the shaft either. Being rather common in the matter of personal skill and performance, I'm content that OTR does not change me much if at all. Equipment is already excessively expensive for my pocket and I doubt that higher priced components or newer equipment are going to be worth the added cost.

 

Granted that curiosity has led me to acquire some of the high priced stuff and try out as many as possible when possible, I honestly felt that some, not all, of them felt better but not necessarily better enough for the cost to me. I suppose if they had met my price point I would have made sure I owned them, but they didn't.

 

Call me common. OTR will be my life, and rather old, unless I win a lottery and feel the need for clubhouse bragging rights. What money I can spend I spend on fairway time.

 

 

Shambles

[Justin66]

http://www.freegolfinfo.com/forums/tm.aspx?m=2764121

 

I'm not a member here, but I was directed to this by Mr. Talamonti.

[RookieBlue7]

http://www.freegolfinfo.com/forums/tm.aspx?m=2764121

 

I'm not a member here, but I was directed to this by Mr. Talamonti.

 

 

What's your point? I already stated what the costs are, here, I'll quote it for you from my original post, since reading comprehension is tough on here:

 

Also, Golf Digest is talking raw materials only. They're not factoring in R&D, marketing, shipping, making up for the free ones they give away, etc. Matrix loses more money on the TPHD line than any shaft they make. It's also their most expensive.

 

I've talked with Phil, have a few of his shafts, they're good quality. He has no overhead, so he can mark the price down that much.

[Justin66]

What's your point? I already stated what the costs are, here, I'll quote it for you from my original post, since reading comprehension is tough on here:

 

 

 

I've talked with Phil, have a few of his shafts, they're good quality. He has no overhead, so he can mark the price down that much.

 

 

But we're talking quality/performance v. price. At least, I thought we were. If Talamonti shafts (re)start at $50 instead of $195, would they still be percieved as "tour" quality? Maybe to us, since we know better, but to the ones that just see "Hey, Tiger's using it and it costs $300, so it has to be the best". I have the PD-70S... I know, not the "X", since I'm not a real golfer, but hey... I also don't have the gear I have to make people think I'm better than everyone else.

 

Besides, you're paying all that mark-up for what amounts to a tweak. Let me put it this way: you take your car in to a shop and they tell you they can make it go 4-6 mph faster, just by adding this device. The fee for the upgrade is $300, labor not included. The device only costs $15 to make. Would the extra 4-6 mph increase be considered "worth it"?

[RookieBlue7]

But we're talking quality/performance v. price. At least, I thought we were. If Talamonti shafts (re)start at $50 instead of $195, would they still be percieved as "tour" quality? Maybe to us, since we know better, but to the ones that just see "Hey, Tiger's using it and it costs $300, so it has to be the best". I have the PD-70S... I know, not the "X", since I'm not a real golfer, but hey... I also don't have the gear I have to make people think I'm better than everyone else.

 

Besides, you're paying all that mark-up for what amounts to a tweak. Let me put it this way: you take your car in to a shop and they tell you they can make it go 4-6 mph faster, just by adding this device. The fee for the upgrade is $300, labor not included. The device only costs $15 to make. Would the extra 4-6 mph increase be considered "worth it"?

 

You're using an off base analogy, but here goes. If that part was the only one that fit the car, and I got the extra performance, yes, absolutely. But it shouldn't have said faster, since not many people care about faster. You should've said fuel economy instead, if it improved fuel economy by 4-6 miles per fill up. Then you'd have an analogy that applied to everyone. I'd be willing to bet everyone would go for better fuel economy.

 

Now let me ask you a question. Since you like car analogies, here goes. You have the choice of a versus b, one runs perfect, the other has a knock in the motor, which do you buy? Price isn't a factor, so I'm not listing prices of each, also not giving you the reason for the knock in the motor, just know it has one. Which do you buy?

 

That's the point of shaft changes, we've never been talking about price, or I wasn't. I was talking about buying what fits you perfect, not what will work. For me if it costs extra or more, I don't care, I'm about optimal performance. I'm not the kind of guy that buys something that'll work.

 

Again, have you ever been to a proper fitting by a top notch, certified fitter?

[Justin66]

Fuel economy is a good point... that does make more sense. I guess, for me, then it'd depend. My car is already pretty good on gas mileage, but if I had a full-size pickup truck/SUV then it might be a consideration. If it were the only choice, it'd have to do better than 5mpg, though.

 

As for your knock in the motor analogy, that isn't a good analogy, either. If it has a knock, it has a defect somewhere. If we're talking shafts, I'd liken it to a shaft with a crack or longitudinal split somewhere. From there, it doesn't matter how much it cost- there's going to be breakage some point in the future. Same with the motor: whether it's a Rolls Royce or a Yugo, a knock is not good.

 

As far as "top notch", do you mean by someone like Joe Kwok? That'd be a no. I got one of those "that was a fitting?" fittings a long time ago... the kind where they just stick a club in your hands and you hit balls off a lie board out on the range. A couple years later, a guy where I work who did fitting/building/repair on the side showed me what I missed out on. He'd went to the classes and all that, but he never made it his "it" profession. He ended up getting out of it (mostly, he still regrips the odd set) when he got promoted.

[RookieBlue7]

Fuel economy is a good point... that does make more sense. I guess, for me, then it'd depend. My car is already pretty good on gas mileage, but if I had a full-size pickup truck/SUV then it might be a consideration. If it were the only choice, it'd have to do better than 5mpg, though.

 

As for your knock in the motor analogy, that isn't a good analogy, either. If it has a knock, it has a defect somewhere. If we're talking shafts, I'd liken it to a shaft with a crack or longitudinal split somewhere. From there, it doesn't matter how much it cost- there's going to be breakage some point in the future. Same with the motor: whether it's a Rolls Royce or a Yugo, a knock is not good.

 

As far as "top notch", do you mean by someone like Joe Kwok? That'd be a no. I got one of those "that was a fitting?" fittings a long time ago... the kind where they just stick a club in your hands and you hit balls off a lie board out on the range. A couple years later, a guy where I work who did fitting/building/repair on the side showed me what I missed out on. He'd went to the classes and all that, but he never made it his "it" profession. He ended up getting out of it (mostly, he still regrips the odd set) when he got promoted.

 

Try getting fit on a Trackman, there's lots you're missing out on, I can assure you. Playing with guesses is like putting a band-aid on a bullet wound. Yeah, the bleeding might stop, and that be effective, but it's not the best that could be done for it.

 

And since you understood the fuel economy analogy, here's an example. You can buy a chip that improves fuel economy by 5 mpg for $500 (true story). Does that make

It worth it? Say you're driving a pickup that gets 250 miles per fill up, at 25 miles per gallon(10 gallon tank). The 5 mpg doesn't sound like much, at first. It's a 20% improvement in fuel economy. That's 50 miles per tank, effectively making your tank a 12 gallon tank from stock. That's like getting 2 free gallons of fuel. With gas prices at $4 a gallon, we're talking $8 per fill up. It's going to take you just over 62 fill-ups to pay for that upgrade. How many times do you fill up in a week? 1-2? So it'll take you a year or less to pay for it in what you save. Not too shabby for a quick, one time investment.

 

Back to golf now. Say you gain 5 yards off the tee (most fittings I've seen are 10-15 average though). But let's think about it. That's 5 yards per tee ball. You're saving on average, 70 yards a round. Doesn't sound like much, cause it's only 5 per hole, but it's a full LW shot for the average person per round. Best part? Generally, 5 yards will get lots of people to one less club into the green. But, since the average is a 5% improvement in distance that equates to 11 yards for the average amateur (average amateur driving distance is 220 yards). Dispersion is generally improved by 5-10 yards, so you've got a more reliable tee ball too, which is more predictable and can help them find the fairway more often.

 

Regardless of the shaft's cost, if I can see that type of improvement I'm buying all day long.

[ninetails]

What I found interesting were answer differences to the same questions by the Callaway and Wilson fitter. Especially the indoor vs outdoor question. I personally do not feel comfortable indoors and the next time I get fitted, I'm going where I can see ball flight immediately.

[Matt Saternus]

What I found interesting were answer differences to the same questions by the Callaway and Wilson fitter. Especially the indoor vs outdoor question. I personally do not feel comfortable indoors and the next time I get fitted, I'm going where I can see ball flight immediately.

 

I hope to do a fitting with one of the top fitting companies in Chicago in the next couple weeks and asking them some of the same questions. I already know that some of their answers are different, and I look forward to hearing their explanations. I think these differences are fascinating as well.