BubbaBallesteros Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 On 4/2/2020 at 11:24 AM, cnosil said: Gonna have to disagree with you on that. I agree more toe hang causes the the toe to lag behind as the stroke starts and people react to the feel. Face balanced putters, center shaft generally excluded, are a different animal. They resist rotation and don’t close faster; they try to remain pointing in the same direction; they don’t want to rotate open or closed. I watched the video and Ian doesn’t discuss face balanced. I need a putter that stays open to correct my left miss so I go with more toe hang or less weight. A face balanced putter will have a lower rotational MOI than a toe hang putter. You can just pick up both styles of putter and twist them in your hand. You will be able to tell that the face balanced putter is easier to twist. This I because there is less of a moment arm created between the shaft extention line and the COG of the putter head. Face balanced putters will be easier to release, thus increasing the rate of rotation of the face with same torque applied than will a toe hang putter. It's science not an opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnosil Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 On 11/20/2020 at 8:50 AM, BubbaBallesteros said: A face balanced putter will have a lower rotational MOI than a toe hang putter. You can just pick up both styles of putter and twist them in your hand. You will be able to tell that the face balanced putter is easier to twist. This I because there is less of a moment arm created between the shaft extention line and the COG of the putter head. Face balanced putters will be easier to release, thus increasing the rate of rotation of the face with same torque applied than will a toe hang putter. It's science not an opinion. Don’t disagree. If you are applying force to the face balanced putter or any putter with low rotational MOI it should be easier to close. If you are just swinging the putter it tries to stay square to the path. You also have to consider that some putters are forced to be face balanced based on how the hosel is designed. Quote Driver: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven Fairway: TS3 15* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke Hybrids: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype 915H 24* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype Irons: TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite Wedge: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite Putter: TM-180 Testing: Backups: Milled Collection RSX 2, mFGP2, Futura 5W Member: MGS Hitsquad since 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BubbaBallesteros Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 On 11/20/2020 at 4:24 PM, cnosil said: Don’t disagree. If you are applying force to the face balanced putter or any putter with low rotational MOI it should be easier to close. If you are just swinging the putter it tries to stay square to the path. You also have to consider that some putters are forced to be face balanced based on how the hosel is designed. The hosel design is what sets the shaft extension line, so if we use the same head (constant COG) the hosel is the only thing that determines toe hang... You are rotating the club face during your swing, so you are just swinging the putter. There is movement in a few planes and axis. If the shaft extension line is closer to the hosel this means more toe hang because of the in increased moment arm and less toe hang the closer it get to the CoG. I can send you some material if you want to look into it more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moose4282 Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 Rebooting this thread because im curious about the contradictory information. More toe hang seems at first glance to want to leave the face open at impact but then i came across this: Totally opposite of some common “suggestions” I typically take my putter outside my arc and struggle with pushes, or an open face, and according to scotty cameron, i would need more toe hang, the opposite of what i thought.... so why is this? One theory i kind of have is, everyone says the putter with more toe hang has more torque and will want to open when transitioning from back stroke to forward. But i think it also helps keep the face closed on the backstroke, because of the same torque like forces are applied from address to starting the backstroke... if that makes sense? Hmm.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BMart519 Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 Interesting. The less “toe flow” the more likely I am to hit pulls personally with a closed face and in to out stroke. My medium toe flow ER2 reduces the pulls, do hit a couple pushes. Still have an in to out stroke... Quote G425 MAX Driver & 5W Baffler Rail-H 3H-4H 699 Pro Utility V2 - 4i APEX CF19 6-AW INDI Wedges 52, 56, 60 EAS 2.0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
null Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 8 hours ago, Moose4282 said: Rebooting this thread because im curious about the contradictory information. More toe hang seems at first glance to want to leave the face open at impact but then i came across this: Totally opposite of some common “suggestions” I typically take my putter outside my arc and struggle with pushes, or an open face, and according to scotty cameron, i would need more toe hang, the opposite of what i thought.... so why is this? One theory i kind of have is, everyone says the putter with more toe hang has more torque and will want to open when transitioning from back stroke to forward. But i think it also helps keep the face closed on the backstroke, because of the same torque like forces are applied from address to starting the backstroke... if that makes sense? Hmm.. The graphic is scientifically incorrect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moose4282 Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 4 minutes ago, jlukes said: The graphic is scientifically incorrect Its from scottys website. I believe odyssey has the same theory. What about reacting to the toe hang? A player feels that toe wanting to open, therefore is more likely to rotate it. If im opening up a face balanced putter, i may not be able to “feel” it, there for i never rotate it closed? Its an interesting topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnosil Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 Its from scottys website. I believe odyssey has the same theory. What about reacting to the toe hang? A player feels that toe wanting to open, therefore is more likely to rotate it. If im opening up a face balanced putter, i may not be able to “feel” it, there for i never rotate it closed? Its an interesting topic. What you are getting into is how a person manipulates a putter. It may be caused by feel and how the person reacts to the putter. That is why you should be fit for a putter based on results and. It what the machine spits out. If aPlayer reacts to the putter that is in their hands and the computer provides a result then the player tries that putter they may get yet another result due to how the player reacts to the new putter. If the CoG for a putter causes it to be toe down, when the putter moves forward the head of the putter will lag behind. As the stroke continues it will pick up momentum and overtake the heel and close. From what I have learned toe hang isn’t a good indicator for fit since the same toe hang could have different rates of rotation based on head weight. Due to all the design options with a putter you actually have toPutt with it to see how you respond. You can’t just say I need a putter with X degrees of toe hang. GolfSpy BOS, Moose4282 and bens197 3 Quote Driver: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven Fairway: TS3 15* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke Hybrids: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype 915H 24* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype Irons: TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite Wedge: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite Putter: TM-180 Testing: Backups: Milled Collection RSX 2, mFGP2, Futura 5W Member: MGS Hitsquad since 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bens197 Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 My head hurts. I wonder how much of this is paralysis by analysis? Quote Titleist TSi3 Fujikura Speeder NX Blue 60X TaylorMade SIM2 3 wood Fujilkura Ventus Blue 7-X Titleist U505 2 Tensei 1K Black 85 X Titleist T100 4-P Nippon Modus 3 120X PING S159 50-S 55-H 59-T DG X100 Vokey SM8 50, SM9 54 & 60 Nippon Modus 3 120s L.A.B. MEZZ Max Broom Accra 47" 79.5* Srixon Z-Star XV Currently testing the 2024 PING S159 wedges… https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/63483-testers-announced-ping-s159-wedges/ Was testing, still loving the 2023 Titleist T100 Irons 4-P https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/60456-titleist-t-series-irons-2023-forum-review/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnosil Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 My head hurts. I wonder how much of this is paralysis by analysis? A lot of it is. We could say the same thing about every other club in the bag. The difference is that the putter can look so drastically different than every other club so people dive into the minutia. Most is what is being talked about is fitting related stuff. However,Toe hang really isn’t a fitting parameter anymore but most people haven’t moved past that concept as one of the most important things. bens197 1 Quote Driver: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven Fairway: TS3 15* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke Hybrids: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype 915H 24* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype Irons: TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite Wedge: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite Putter: TM-180 Testing: Backups: Milled Collection RSX 2, mFGP2, Futura 5W Member: MGS Hitsquad since 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfSpy BOS Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 What you are getting into is how a person manipulates a putter. It may be caused by feel and how the person reacts to the putter. That is why you should be fit for a putter based on results and. It what the machine spits out. If aPlayer reacts to the putter that is in their hands and the computer provides a result then the player tries that putter they may get yet another result due to how the player reacts to the new putter. If the CoG for a putter causes it to be toe down, when the putter moves forward the head of the putter will lag behind. As the stroke continues it will pick up momentum and overtake the heel and close. From what I have learned toe hang isn’t a good indicator for fit since the same toe hang could have different rates of rotation based on head weight. Due to all the design options with a putter you actually have toPutt with it to see how you respond. You can’t just say I need a putter with X degrees of toe hang. Exactly what I found going from a Scotty Newport to the Evnroll ER2B. Technically the Scotty should have a tow hang more appropriate for me but I roll the Evnroll straighter. I also noticed that due to the different hosel/shaft configurations the Evnroll naturally sits a little closer to me at the same length and lie, so I think that makes it easier for me to aim. A putter fitting really is one of the best things you can do for your game. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk bens197 and cnosil 2 Quote Epic Max LS 10.5 - Motore X F3 6X | Speedzone 5-wood - Ventus Blue 8S | TSi3 20* Hybrid - KBS Proto 85S SMS Pro 4-PW - Steelfiber i110S | MG3 Raw Black 50.09, 54.11, 58.11 - DG TI S200 ER2B | Pro V1x | NX9 Slope | Jones Trouper R | CaddyLite EZ v8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nag Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 Gone thru the whole thread and am a bit confused. My boy (freshman) took up golf (last year) and is been missing putts to the right. He uses my ghost putter which is mid level toe hanged. His putting shape is arc (again not too deep) but his putter face is slightly open at impact. Was thinking of picking up a face balanced spider for him, as it would close faster (than toe hanged) and have the face square at impact. Does that sound right....? (Am thinking of getting him fitted but then again as he is young ( learning and experimenting), I think it will be easy for him to remodel his swing as needed...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnosil Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 6 hours ago, nag said: Gone thru the whole thread and am a bit confused. My boy (freshman) took up golf (last year) and is been missing putts to the right. He uses my ghost putter which is mid level toe hanged. His putting shape is arc (again not too deep) but his putter face is slightly open at impact. Was thinking of picking up a face balanced spider for him, as it would close faster (than toe hanged) and have the face square at impact. Does that sound right....? (Am thinking of getting him fitted but then again as he is young ( learning and experimenting), I think it will be easy for him to remodel his swing as needed...) Toe Hang really isn't that important; it is the result of getting everything else right....offset, hosel position, weight, CoG, etc. If he is missing right, yes, he needs to get the face closed more. When making the putting stroke he will react to the putter and it should just move through stroke. People also have a path bias to the left or to the right. That isn't a bad thing and it is better than a zero'd out stroke. Also how does he power the stroke? If he uses his right arm (like tiger) he can just try and shut the face on the through stroke. Does he set up closed with his shoulders; putter often follows shoulder line. The best idea is to try different putters and test them by evaluating startline. If he is missing right, go lighter, maybe smaller diameter grip, shaft intersecting the topline closer to the center (draw a line down the shaft and through the head closer to heel will provide more toe hang Closer to center is more face balanced), maybe a full offset putter. Can he roll the ball through a gate using different stroke lengths that has less than 1* of error consistently (ideally you want to get down to about 0.5* of error). As you change putter configurations, you should see that the miss will shift. left and right Once he is doing that consistently, that is the putter that he should use. Quote Driver: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven Fairway: TS3 15* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke Hybrids: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype 915H 24* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype Irons: TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite Wedge: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite Putter: TM-180 Testing: Backups: Milled Collection RSX 2, mFGP2, Futura 5W Member: MGS Hitsquad since 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffly Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 On 1/13/2021 at 11:18 PM, nag said: Gone thru the whole thread and am a bit confused. My boy (freshman) took up golf (last year) and is been missing putts to the right. He uses my ghost putter which is mid level toe hanged. His putting shape is arc (again not too deep) but his putter face is slightly open at impact. Was thinking of picking up a face balanced spider for him, as it would close faster (than toe hanged) and have the face square at impact. Does that sound right....? (Am thinking of getting him fitted but then again as he is young ( learning and experimenting), I think it will be easy for him to remodel his swing as needed...) It could be his setup more than the putter? It could be a flinch, take away, or stroke issue? If it is a breaking putt then it could be a misread? The putter is only a tool in the puzzle that is golf. Quote Golf is simple - people are complicated. 5w Taylormade SLDR S 19* - 220yd, Ping G2 5-U - 190-105, Maltby M+ 54* & MG 60* - 95-75, Evnroll ER8, Titleist 816 H1 4h 21*, Maltby 4 Hybrid Iron 24* - 210-200, Callaway XR16 8* - 235 carry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pupini Posted February 28, 2021 Share Posted February 28, 2021 On 4/2/2020 at 9:27 AM, jlukes said: This is a common misnomer. Face balanced putters close FASTER than putters with toe hang. Ultimately it comes down to how the golfer reacts to the feelings the putter gives, but the science of toe hang (more weight in the toe) means closing down the rate of rotation. Face balanced putters rotate closed faster. Is there such thing as heel weighted putters with more weight in the heel. The same way move weight in the heel of a driver produces a draw bias. Quote - Driver: 425LST w / KBS TD60 X-Stiff - 3-Wood: Callaway Rogue - Mkii ZX5 irons - 5-pw True Temper Dynamic Golf Tour Issue - Hybrid - 939X: with Proforce V2 Stiff - SM7 50* & 56* - ER10 Mallet - Pro Plus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmikecpa Posted February 28, 2021 Share Posted February 28, 2021 Is there such thing as heel weighted putters with more weight in the heel. The same way move weight in the heel of a driver produces a draw bias.Essentially yes there are toe up putters. Edel makes them and Odyssey did at one time. I am sure there are more but I was not a fan when I tried them. Sold the Odyssey and think I still have the Edel. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk cnosil 1 Quote WITB 2024 Qi10 LS 9* HZRDUS RDX Smoke Blue 60g 6.5 M5 15* Evenflow Black 75g 6.5 Sim Ti 22* HZRDUS Red 75g 6.5 Sim2 Rescue 22* Diamana Thump 100x X Forged CB 5 - PW MMT 105 TX Jaws Raw 50*, 54* & 58* TTDG "OG" Spinner Toulon Madison BGT Fire 34.75" Z Star Diamond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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