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Toe Hang Blade Putter Advice


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1 hour ago, zrumble said:

But as an engineer and constant tinkerer, I am left wondering if something flows even better with my swing. 

I can tell you from personal experience to stop tinkering.  If you are constantly trying different putters youre never going to know if its your stroke or if its the putter.  If you want to improve, the worst thing you can do is constantly be swapping out clubs.

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"I suppose its better to be a master of 7 than to be vaguely familiar with 14." - Chick Evans

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Woods: Tommy Armour Atomic 10.5* 

Irons: Mizuno MP Fli-Hi 21* and Mizuno T-Zoid True 5, 7 and 9-irons

Wedge: Mizuno S18 Blue Ion 54*

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That's really weird! I used to miss putts to the right ( I'm a lefty ) and I switched to a 60 degree toe hang and it also cured my miss. Golf is stupid.😀

You need to change your focus from changing putters to understanding the putting stroke.  Dive in to how it works and how the stroke works in tandem with the putter.   From there you can choose a sing

Multiple options. Most people start with toe hang but that isn’t always a good fix unless all the other design features remain the same. You could go with less toe hang. Face balanced may be too

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9 minutes ago, Retrogolfer36 said:

I can tell you from personal experience to stop tinkering.  If you are constantly trying different putters youre never going to know if its your stroke or if its the putter.  If you want to improve, the worst thing you can do is constantly be swapping out clubs.

You’re right, but it’s so hard not to. 

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Stats: 5'4", Male, R-Handed, Moderate Tempo, Driver SS 115mph
 

Driver: Taylormade SiM Max 9*, TM Ventus Blue 6X
3w/5w: Callaway X-Hot, S-flex Fubuki shafts
3h: Tour Edge EXS Pro, Smoke Black 80g 6.0
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1 minute ago, zrumble said:

You’re right, but it’s so hard not to. 

You need to change your focus from changing putters to understanding the putting stroke.  Dive in to how it works and how the stroke works in tandem with the putter.   From there you can choose a single putter or at least know how the putter will respond to your stoke. 

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Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  to 16.5* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
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9 hours ago, zrumble said:

You’re right, but it’s so hard not to. 

I hear you.  Part of the fun is trying new clubs but if you want to improve you need to eliminate the variables so that you know whats the indian and what is the arrow.

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"I suppose its better to be a master of 7 than to be vaguely familiar with 14." - Chick Evans

Whats in my Sun Mountain 2.5+ stand bag?

Woods: Tommy Armour Atomic 10.5* 

Irons: Mizuno MP Fli-Hi 21* and Mizuno T-Zoid True 5, 7 and 9-irons

Wedge: Mizuno S18 Blue Ion 54*

Putter: Mizuno Bettinardi A-02

Ball: Maxfli Tour X

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19 hours ago, cnosil said:

You need to change your focus from changing putters to understanding the putting stroke.  Dive in to how it works and how the stroke works in tandem with the putter.   From there you can choose a single putter or at least know how the putter will respond to your stoke. 

But golf isn't as much fun if you play the same stuff all the time!😄

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Anyone remember when the world class fitters taught the wrong ball flight laws?

I had an open face at impact on all putters except a full toe hang putter, as the SAMM putt lab guy said the face closes faster and helps you square up with a full toe hang.

He also confirmed what all world class fitters say, there is no-one with a sbst stroke, its not possible. Just science.

 

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2 hours ago, braincramp said:

But golf isn't as much fun if you play the same stuff all the time!😄

You can still buy lots of different putters,  you would just know which ones would best fit you 🙂

 

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Update: 

I borrowed my significant other’s putter last night for a test. She is just starting to play and has a tour edge putter that came in a set, but it is noticeably lighter and has minimal toe hang compared to my Karsten Pal. 
 

I hit putts of 3 and 6 feet on my birdie ball 4x10 putting mat that was just delivered (which is great). Interestingly my speed control was much better with my Karsten Pal, with very few going more than a foot past the hole. On 3’ putts I made them all day long with both putters.  on 6’ putts I made about 50% of my putts with the PAL, typically missed an inch or two off the right edge. However, I made about 75% of the putts with the lighter, less toe hang Tour Edge. Misses were still right, but that is a noticeable difference. 

I have a Ben Hogan BHB03, lots of toe hang, on the way through the company’s demo program. So expect another update to follow. 

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Stats: 5'4", Male, R-Handed, Moderate Tempo, Driver SS 115mph
 

Driver: Taylormade SiM Max 9*, TM Ventus Blue 6X
3w/5w: Callaway X-Hot, S-flex Fubuki shafts
3h: Tour Edge EXS Pro, Smoke Black 80g 6.0
4i-PW: Mizuno MP-4, DG S300
Wedges: Titleist SM7
56* Wedge: Callaway Jaws w/ 12* of bounce

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On 4/7/2020 at 2:06 PM, zrumble said:

Update: 

I borrowed my significant other’s putter last night for a test. She is just starting to play and has a tour edge putter that came in a set, but it is noticeably lighter and has minimal toe hang compared to my Karsten Pal. 
 

I hit putts of 3 and 6 feet on my birdie ball 4x10 putting mat that was just delivered (which is great). Interestingly my speed control was much better with my Karsten Pal, with very few going more than a foot past the hole. On 3’ putts I made them all day long with both putters.  on 6’ putts I made about 50% of my putts with the PAL, typically missed an inch or two off the right edge. However, I made about 75% of the putts with the lighter, less toe hang Tour Edge. Misses were still right, but that is a noticeable difference. 

I have a Ben Hogan BHB03, lots of toe hang, on the way through the company’s demo program. So expect another update to follow. 

Ben Hogan BHB03 came in today, and I learned a few things. First, the BHB03 is noticeably heavier than my Karsten PAL. Especially the toe. Secondly It has a very narrow, golf-ball width, recession for the alignment aid it it creates a beautiful roll. This also creates significant feel for off center hits. Finally, the more I putted with it, the more awareness I had of the face likely due to the heavy toe. After a couple hours practice I was making about 30% more putts than my Karsten. When I alternated to the Karsten I realized the lie angle isn’t quite right for my natural stance and I couldn’t feel the face at impact. 

Stats: 5'4", Male, R-Handed, Moderate Tempo, Driver SS 115mph
 

Driver: Taylormade SiM Max 9*, TM Ventus Blue 6X
3w/5w: Callaway X-Hot, S-flex Fubuki shafts
3h: Tour Edge EXS Pro, Smoke Black 80g 6.0
4i-PW: Mizuno MP-4, DG S300
Wedges: Titleist SM7
56* Wedge: Callaway Jaws w/ 12* of bounce

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On 4/2/2020 at 1:19 PM, jlukes said:

We're saying two different things because we're talking about different things 

Yes. A face balanced putter is good for someone with a straight back straight through stroke because it has a neutral axis of rotation and thus it won't rotate or resist rotation that the golfer isn't creating himself. 

A face balanced putter is also good for someone who may open the face in the backswing and be late to close the swing at impact. The face balanced putter is easier to rotate. 

A putter with toe hang might cause issues for someone who is straight back straight through because the toe, due to inertia, will lag behind the rest of putter. Thus leaving the face open for those types of golfers. 

Someone with an arc stroke who is too aggressive rotating closed at impact well benefit from more toe hand because it will resist closing on as the putter moves forward. 

Nailed it

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On 4/2/2020 at 11:24 AM, cnosil said:

Gonna have to disagree with you on that. I agree more toe hang causes the the toe to lag behind as the stroke starts and people react to the feel. Face balanced putters, center shaft generally excluded, are a different animal. They resist rotation and don’t close faster; they try to remain pointing in the same direction; they don’t want to rotate open or closed.

I watched the video and Ian doesn’t discuss face balanced.

 

I need a putter that stays open to correct my left miss so I go with more toe hang or less weight.

A face balanced putter will have a lower rotational MOI than a toe hang putter. You can just pick up both styles of putter and twist them in your hand. You will be able to  tell that the face balanced putter is easier to twist. This I because there is less of a moment arm created between the shaft extention line and the COG of the putter head.

Face balanced putters will be easier to release, thus increasing the rate of rotation of the face with same torque applied than will a toe hang putter. It's science not an opinion. 

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On 11/20/2020 at 8:50 AM, BubbaBallesteros said:
A face balanced putter will have a lower rotational MOI than a toe hang putter. You can just pick up both styles of putter and twist them in your hand. You will be able to  tell that the face balanced putter is easier to twist. This I because there is less of a moment arm created between the shaft extention line and the COG of the putter head.
Face balanced putters will be easier to release, thus increasing the rate of rotation of the face with same torque applied than will a toe hang putter. It's science not an opinion. 


Don’t disagree. If you are applying force to the face balanced putter or any putter with low rotational MOI it should be easier to close. If you are just swinging the putter it tries to stay square to the path.  You also have to consider that some putters are forced to be face balanced based on how the hosel is designed. 

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  to 16.5* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 11/20/2020 at 4:24 PM, cnosil said:


Don’t disagree. If you are applying force to the face balanced putter or any putter with low rotational MOI it should be easier to close. If you are just swinging the putter it tries to stay square to the path.  You also have to consider that some putters are forced to be face balanced based on how the hosel is designed. 

The hosel design is what sets the shaft extension line, so if we use the same head (constant COG) the hosel is the only thing that determines toe hang... You are rotating the club face during your swing, so you are just swinging the putter. There is movement in a few planes and axis. 

If the shaft extension line is closer to the hosel this means more toe hang because of the in increased moment arm and less toe hang the closer it get to the CoG. I can send you some material if you want to look into it more. 

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  • 1 month later...

Rebooting this thread because im curious about the contradictory information. More toe hang seems at first glance to want to leave the face open at impact but then i came across this:

77DECCC9-9300-465E-8382-DF31183BC2F5.jpeg.1fe0720f953ea1cfe12c2e306dfbe11f.jpeg

Totally opposite of some common “suggestions”

I typically take my putter outside my arc and struggle with pushes, or an open face, and according to scotty cameron, i would need more toe hang, the opposite of what i thought....

so why is this? One theory i kind of have is, everyone says the putter with more toe hang has more torque and will want to open when transitioning from back stroke to forward. But i think it also helps keep the face closed on the backstroke, because of the same torque like forces are applied from address to starting the backstroke... if that makes sense? Hmm..

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Interesting. The less “toe flow” the more likely I am to hit pulls personally with a closed face and in to out stroke. My medium toe flow ER2 reduces the pulls, do hit a couple pushes. Still have an in to out stroke...

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8 hours ago, Moose4282 said:

Rebooting this thread because im curious about the contradictory information. More toe hang seems at first glance to want to leave the face open at impact but then i came across this:

77DECCC9-9300-465E-8382-DF31183BC2F5.jpeg.1fe0720f953ea1cfe12c2e306dfbe11f.jpeg

Totally opposite of some common “suggestions”

I typically take my putter outside my arc and struggle with pushes, or an open face, and according to scotty cameron, i would need more toe hang, the opposite of what i thought....

so why is this? One theory i kind of have is, everyone says the putter with more toe hang has more torque and will want to open when transitioning from back stroke to forward. But i think it also helps keep the face closed on the backstroke, because of the same torque like forces are applied from address to starting the backstroke... if that makes sense? Hmm..

The graphic is scientifically incorrect 

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4 minutes ago, jlukes said:

The graphic is scientifically incorrect 

Its from scottys website. I believe odyssey has the same theory. What about reacting to the toe hang? A player feels that toe wanting to open, therefore is more likely to rotate it. If im opening up a face balanced putter, i may not be able to “feel” it, there for i never rotate it closed? Its an interesting topic. 

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Its from scottys website. I believe odyssey has the same theory. What about reacting to the toe hang? A player feels that toe wanting to open, therefore is more likely to rotate it. If im opening up a face balanced putter, i may not be able to “feel” it, there for i never rotate it closed? Its an interesting topic. 

What you are getting into is how a person manipulates a putter. It may be caused by feel and how the person reacts to the putter. That is why you should be fit for a putter based on results and. It what the machine spits out. If a
Player reacts to the putter that is in their hands and the computer provides a result then the player tries that putter they may get yet another result due to how the player reacts to the new putter.

If the CoG for a putter causes it to be toe down, when the putter moves forward the head of the putter will lag behind. As the stroke continues it will pick up momentum and overtake the heel and close.

From what I have learned toe hang isn’t a good indicator for fit since the same toe hang could have different rates of rotation based on head weight.

Due to all the design options with a putter you actually have to
Putt with it to see how you respond. You can’t just say I need a putter with X degrees of toe hang.
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Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  to 16.5* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 816H1 19* set at 18* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
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Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :cleveland-small: 588 54-14, 58-12
Putter:  Bellum Winmore 787

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My head hurts.

I wonder how much of this is paralysis by analysis?  

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My head hurts.
I wonder how much of this is paralysis by analysis?  

A lot of it is. We could say the same thing about every other club in the bag. The difference is that the putter can look so drastically different than every other club so people dive into the minutia.

Most is what is being talked about is fitting related stuff. However,
Toe hang really isn’t a fitting parameter anymore but most people haven’t moved past that concept as one of the most important things.
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Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  to 16.5* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 816H1 19* set at 18* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  21*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
               :titelist-small: 915H 24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :cleveland-small: 588 54-14, 58-12
Putter:  Bellum Winmore 787

Backups:  :bobby-grace-1: 6330, :taylormade-small:TM-180

 

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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